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Title: The 'Birmingham Koran' fragment that could shake Islam after carbon-dating suggests it is OLDER than the Prophet Muhammad
Source:
Daily Mail Online
URL Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art ... het-Muhammad-scholars-say.html
Published: Aug 31, 2015
Author: Jennifer Newton
Post Date: 2015-08-31 07:29:52 by cranky
Keywords: None
Views: 6808
Comments: 35
- Fragments of the oldest Koran were discovered last month in Birmingham
- Carbon dating found the pages were produced between 568AD and 654AD
- But several historians now say that the parchment may predate Muhammad
- They believe that this discovery could rewrite the early history of Islam
Fragments of the world's oldest Koran, found in Birmingham last month, may predate the Prophet Muhammad and could even rewrite the early history of Islam, according to scholars.
The pages, thought to be between 1,448 and 1,371 years old, were discovered bound within the pages of another Koran from the late seventh century at the library of the University of Birmingham.
Written in ink in an early form of Arabic script on parchment made from animal skin, the pages contain parts of the Suras, or chapters, 18 to 20, which may have been written by someone who actually knew the Prophet Muhammad - founder of the Islamic faith.
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Discovery: Fragments of what is believed to be the world's oldest Koran. Several historians have said it could even predate the Prophet Muhammad
The pages were carbon-dated by experts at the University of Oxford, a process which showed the Islamic holy book manuscript could be the oldest Koran in the world.
The discovery was said to be particularly significant as in the early years of Islam, the Koran was thought to have been memorised and passed down orally rather written.
But now several historians have said that the parchment might even predate Muhammad.
It is believed that the Birmingham Koran was produced between 568AD and 645AD, while the dates usually given for Muhammad are between 570AD and 632AD.
Historian Tom Holland, told the Times: 'It destabilises, to put it mildly, the idea that we can know anything with certainty about how the Koran emerged - and that in turn has implications for the history of Muhammad and the Companions.'
Keith Small, from the University of Oxford's Bodleian Library, added: 'This gives more ground to what have been peripheral views of the Koran's genesis, like that Muhammad and his early followers used a text that was already in existence and shaped it to fit their own political and theological agenda, rather than Muhammad receiving a revelation from heaven.
The pages were carbon dated by experts at the University of Oxford, which showed it could be the oldest Koran in the world
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#28. To: cranky, redleghunter, TooConservative, Vicomte13, All (#0)
Why the hell didn't ancient writers and scribes date their writtings (preferably in the upper righthand corner of the parchment or whatever). Christ....er....Allah....that would have solved the whole problem. I mean doesn't God think of theses things? Just sayin'.
#29. To: SOSO, TooConservative, Vicomte13, liberator, GarySpFc, Cranky (#28)
Why the hell didn't ancient writers and scribes date their writtings (preferably in the upper righthand corner of the parchment or whatever). Christ....er....Allah....that would have solved the whole problem. I mean doesn't God think of theses things? Just sayin'.
I can't speak of Muslims but I believe they date everything starting with Muhammad's vision.
Come on ol' Jasper I KNOW they teach theology at Manhattan (my nephew just started there:)
This is how the Hebrews and Semitic peoples of ancient times dated:
1 Kings 22:41 Jehoshaphat the son of Asa had become king over Judah in the fourth year of Ahab king of Israel. 42 Jehoshaphat was thirty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned twenty-five years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Azubah the daughter of Shilhi.
51 Ahaziah the son of Ahab became king over Israel in Samaria in the seventeenth year of Jehoshaphat king of Judah, and reigned two years over Israel.
Ezra 1:
Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying,
Daniel 1:
In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. 2 And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with some of the articles of the house of God, which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the articles into the treasure house of his god.
The Hebrew tribes related all of these years of kings going back to their Exodus from Egypt. Some go as far as the patriarch Abraham.
Take a look at The Genealogy of Jesus Christ in Matthew Chapter 1 which concludes with the following:
17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations.
The above is convincing I am sure for a Semitic people, but what about we knuckle dragging Gentiles?
Dr. Luke knew we would need huge bread crumbs.
Luke 1:Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, 3 it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, 4 that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed.
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. 7 But they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren, and they were both well advanced in years.
Luke 2:
And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. 2 This census first took place while Quirinius was governing Syria. 3 So all went to be registered, everyone to his own city.
4 Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, 5 to be registered with Mary, his betrothed wife, who was with child. 6 So it was, that while they were there, the days were completed for her to be delivered. 7 And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.
Luke 3:
Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene, 2 while Annas and Caiaphas were high priests, the word of God came to John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
Dr. Luke continues to tie events with rulers and physical locations throughout the Acts of the Apostles as well.
In the 19th Century Liberal Christianity ruled in the German theological universities. They thought the historical accounts related by Luke were rubbish or later fabrications. An English scholar and archaeologist set out to confirm or deny the claims of Dr. Luke:
Educated at Oxford, Ramsay held several prestigious professorships, including "First Professor of Classical Archaeology" and "Lincoln and Merton Professorship of Classical Archaeology and Art" at Oxford, and "Regius Professor of Humanity" at the University of Aberdeen. He received gold medals from Pope Leo XII, the University of Pennsylvania, the Royal Geographical Society, and the Royal Scottish Geographical Society, and was knighted in 1906.
He was the first Professor of Classical Archaeology at Oxford University and pioneered the study of antiquity in what is today western Turkey.
William Ramsay was known for his careful attention to New Testament events, particularly the Book of Acts and Pauline Epistles. When he first went to Asia Minor, many of the cities mentioned in Acts had no known location and almost nothing was known of their detailed history or politics. The Acts of the Apostles was the only record and Ramsay, skeptical, fully expected his own research to prove the author of Acts hopelessly inaccurate since no man could possibly know the details of Asia Minor more than a hundred years after the event—this is, when Acts was then supposed to have been written. He therefore set out to put the writer of Acts on trial. He devoted his life to unearthing the ancient cities and documents of Asia Minor. After a lifetime of study, however, he concluded: 'Further study . . . showed that the book could bear the most minute scrutiny as an authority for the facts of the Aegean world, and that it was written with such judgment, skill, art and perception of truth as to be a model of historical statement' (The Bearing of Recent Discovery, p. 85). On page 89 of the same book, Ramsay accounted, 'I set out to look for truth on the borderland where Greece and Asia meet, and found it there [in Acts]. You may press the words of Luke in a degree beyond any other historian's and they stand the keenest scrutiny and the hardest treatment...'
When Ramsay turned his attention to Paul's letters, most of which the critics dismissed as forgeries, he concluded that all thirteen New Testament letters that claimed to have been written by Paul were authentic.
As I know you still have a keen mind in your golden years, I recommend you read the actual work of Ramsay. It's free on line here:
The bearing of recent discovery on the trustworthiness of the New Testament
Also Here for a different download
Now of course, the Western world influenced by Christianity gave us BC and AD:
"Done in convention by the unanimous consent of the states present the seventeenth day of September in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven and of the independence of the United States of America the twelfth."---US Constitution.
(oops, did the founders really invoke God in the Constitution!---different subject:))
#30. To: redleghunter, TooConservative, Vicomte13, liberator, GarySpFc, Cranky (#29)
Come on ol' Jasper I KNOW they teach theology at Manhattan (my nephew just started there:)
Come on you ol' Ram, I KNOW that at least a few people at Fordham have a sense of humor and recognize sarcasm (even some Jesuits). Oh, the current Pope is a Jesuit isn't he?
#31. To: SOSO (#30)
I KNOW that at least a few people at Fordham have a sense of humor and recognize sarcasm (even some Jesuits). Oh, the current Pope is a Jesuit isn't he?
All the good Jesuit jokes are in Latin. The 'punch lines' get lost in translation:)
But really, you should read some of the works of William Ramsay. You will enjoy them and if not such academic pieces make for an early bedtime:)
Replies to Comment # 31.
All the good Jesuit jokes are in Latin. The 'punch lines' get lost in translation:)
LOL. But which dialect?
End Trace Mode for Comment # 31.
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