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Title: Origins of 'Gospel of Jesus's Wife' Begin to Emerge
Source:
Live Science
URL Source: http://www.livescience.com/51954-gospel-of-jesus-wife-origins.html
Published: Aug 24, 2015
Author: Owen Jarus, Live Science Contributor
Post Date: 2015-08-24 21:47:48 by cranky
Keywords: None
Views: 21197
Comments: 135
Written in Coptic (an Egyptian language), the Gospel of Jesus's Wife, if authentic, suggests that some people in ancient times believed Jesus was married, apparently to Mary Magdalene.
The truth may be finally emerging about the "Gospel of Jesus's Wife," a highly controversial papyrus suggesting that some people, in ancient times, believed Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. New research on the papyrus' ink points to the possibility that it is authentic, researchers say, while newly obtained documents may shed light on the origins of the business-card-sized fragment.
Debate about the credibility of the "gospel" began as soon as Harvard University professor Karen King reported her discovery of the papyrus in September 2012. Written in Coptic (an Egyptian language), the papyrus fragment contains a translated line that reads, "Jesus said to them, 'My wife …'" and also refers to a "Mary," possibly Mary Magdalene.
King had tentatively dated the papyrus to the fourth century, saying it may be a copy of a gospel written in the second century in Greek. [Read Translation of Gospel of Jesus's Wife Papyrus]
Analysis of the papyrus, detailed last year in the Harvard Theological Review journal, suggested the papyrus dates back around 1,200 years (somewhere between the sixth and ninth centuries) while the ink is of a type that could have been created at that time. These findings have led King to support the text's authenticity.
However over the past year many scholars have come to the conclusion that the papyrus is a modern-day forgery, though King and a few other researchers say they are not ready to concede this: "At this point, when discussions and research are ongoing, I think it is important, however difficult, to stay open regarding the possible dates of the inscription and other matters of interpretation," wrote King in a letter recently published in the magazine Biblical Archaeological Review. King has not responded to several interview requests from Live Science.
Now, researchers at Columbia University are running new tests on the ink used on the papyrus. Initial tests published by the Columbia University team in 2014 indicated the ink could have been made in ancient times. Researchers are saying little until their report is published; however they did talk about one finding that could provide some support for its authenticity.
A gospel steeped in mystery
The current owner of the papyrus has insisted on remaining anonymous, claiming that he bought the Gospel of Jesus's Wife, along with other Coptic texts, in 1999 from a man named Hans-Ulrich Laukamp. This person, in turn, got it from Potsdam, in what was East Germany, in 1963, the owner said.
Laukamp died in 2002, and the claim that he owned the text has been strongly disputed: Rene Ernest, the man whom Laukamp and his wife Helga charged with representing their estate, said that Laukamp had no interest in antiquities, did not collect them and was living in West Berlin in 1963. Therefore, he couldn't have crossed the Berlin Wall into Potsdam. Axel Herzsprung, a business partner of Laukamp's, similarly said that Laukamp never had an interest in antiquities and never owned a papyrus. Laukamp has no children or living relatives who could verify these claims. [6 Archaeological Forgeries That Tried to Change History]
Over the past few months, new documents have been found that not only reconstruct Laukamp's life in greater detail, but also provide a new way to check the anonymous owner's story.
King reported in a 2014 Harvard Theological Review article that the anonymous owner "provided me with a photocopy of a contract for the sale of '6 Coptic papyrus fragments, one believed to be a Gospel' from Hans-Ulrich Laukamp, dated Nov. 12, 1999, and signed by both parties." King also notes that "a handwritten comment on the contract states, 'Seller surrenders photocopies of correspondence in German. Papyri were acquired in 1963 by the seller in Potsdam (East Germany).'"
After searching public databases in Florida a Live Science reporter uncovered seven signatures signed by Laukamp between 1997 and 2001 on five notarized documents. Anyone can search these databases and download these documents. These signatures can be compared with the signature recording the sale of the Gospel of Jesus's Wife — providing another way to verify or disprove the story of how the "gospel" made its way to Harvard. The signature of Hans-Ulrich Laukamp from September 1997.
While Harvard University would have to work with forensic handwriting experts to verify the signature, the fact that these notarized documents exist, and are publicly available, presents the opportunity to see if Laukamp really did own the Gospel of Jesus's Wife. Forensic handwriting analysis, while not always conclusive, has been used to determine if signatures made on documents or works of art are authentic or forged.
If Laukamp did own the papyrus, authentic or not, then the origins of the enigmatic text lie with him. The new Laukamp documents allow the story of his life between 1995 and 2002 to be told in some detail. However if Laukamp didn't own the papyrus and the anonymous owner has not been truthful, then further doubt would be cast on the papyrus' authenticity, and information leading to the identity, motives and techniques of the forgers could be found.
Authentic or forged?
One important find, which indicates the Gospel of Jesus's Wife is a fake, was made last year by Christian Askeland, a research associate with the Institute for Septuagint and Biblical Research in Wuppertal, Germany. He examined a second Coptic papyrus containing part of the Gospel of John, which the anonymous owner of the Gospel of Jesus's Wife had also given to Harvard. This text was likewise supposedly purchased from Laukamp, and radiocarbon testing of that papyrus similarly found that it dates back around 1,200 years. [See Images of the Ancient Gospel of Judas]
Askeland found that the text and line breaks— where one line of a text ends and another begins — are identical to those of another papyrus, published in a 1924 book. That second papyrus was written in a dialect of Coptic called Lycopolitan, which went extinct around 1,500 years ago. Askeland concluded that the John papyrus is a forgery. Furthermore, it shares other features with the Gospel of Jesus's Wife, Askeland said, suggesting both are forgeries.
"The two Coptic fragments clearly shared the same ink, writing implement and scribal hand. The same artisan had created both essentially at the same time," Askeland wrote in a paper recently published in the journal New Testament Studies.
King objected to this conclusion in her Biblical Archaeology Review letter, noting that the John fragment could have been copied in ancient times, long after Lycopolitan went extinct, from a text that had similar line breaks.
In addition, James Yardley, a senior research scientist at Columbia University, told Live Science that the new tests confirm that the Gospel of Jesus's Wife holds different ink than the John papyrus. This could undercut Askeland's argument that the two papyri were written by the same person.
"In our first exploration, we did state that the inks used for the two documents of interest [the John papyrus and the Gospel of Jesus's Wife] were quite different. The more recent results do confirm this observation strongly," Yardley told Live Science.
He added that until his new research is published in a peer-reviewed journal, he doesn't want to say anything more publicly. And once it's published, Askeland and other researchers will have a chance to respond.
Askeland's find is far from the only argument that the Gospel of Jesus's Wife is a fake: A number of scholars have noted that the Coptic writing in the Gospel of Jesus's Wife is similar to another early Christian text called the "Gospel of Thomas," even including a modern-day typo made in a 2002 edition of the Gospel of Thomas that is available for free online. That typo indicates the forgers copied from this modern-day text. King disputed this assertion in 2014, saying that ancient scribes made grammatical errors similar to the modern-day typo.
King and communications staff at Harvard Divinity School have not responded to repeated requests for comment.
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History doesn't record him having one, so he probably didn't. If history showed him having one, the Church would not have a celibacy rule for the priesthood.
The celibacy rule has more to do with the Catholic Church keeping money and property than anything else. Parishioners were "buying a slice of Heaven" by leaving money and property to Parish Priests,and married Preists would leave it to their children when they died,cutting Rome and the Pope out of the wealth.
The solution was to bar Priests from marrying so that any property or money left to them ended up belonging to The Vatican.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#83. To: Vicomte13 (#79)
Men and women are supposed to permanently pair off and have lots of babies. Sex isn't dirty.
I couldn't agree more.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#84. To: BobCeleste (#81)
Not really. Just the evil bastards that use it and interpret it in such a way as to turn their followers into mindless robots full of fear.Me too?
Is that what you do?
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#85. To: sneakypete (#82)
I think priestly celibacy was more a matter of curbing abuses.
Today, there's too much pedophilia. Back then, the problem in undisciplined, backward Europe was that in confession parishioners really told priests their sins, and many priests were not paragons of virtue, and used the fact they had secrets to extort sexual favors and even marriage out of otherwise unwilling women.
There were also the dynastic issues to which you referred all over medieval Europe - it was a feudal society living at a low level, so every sinecure such as a priesthood was a boon, and people did try to pass along the offices.
But the reforms came out of a monastery - Cluniac monks spread the rule of celibacy and urged it. The papacy only agreed later. So celibacy did not come to the clergy as a top-down thing, but as a bottom-up reaction to a problem. The top later adopted the reform as a rule, and surely there were other benefits to it.
Seeing the worst motivation in everybody all the time is unseemly. People are simply not that disciplined in their evil to be able to carry it forward so tightly for millennia.
#86. To: sneakypete (#77)
I referred to your post where you mentioned "dirty sex." I passed over your term and went to the question you were asking. Reproduction doesn't have to mean sex which produces children. Reproduction can also mean having spiritual children. That was my response to your post.
#87. To: cranky (#72)
Well, if one likes this "gospel", one might like Mormon books even better.
#88. To: sneakypete (#84)
certainly not internationally if at all. But, if I do, I have no one to blame but myself, for I don't read or use commentary by others, all of my Bible studies and conversations are based upon what God said, not what man says He said.
And while I know you are wrong when it comes to Scripture and Christ, I do have a ton of respect for your political insight, and would not want you turning away from me.
#89. To: Redleghunter (#51)
Let me give you something to ponder.
There is no mention of the US in end times, the US is not Babylon.
That said, while my writings on this subject go back to 1998, recently something that Donald Trump said, got my attention and gave me pause.
He said something about you don't have a country if you have no borders and/or laws.
One of the first things Do did was give Israel defined borders, defined so precisely that we today know not where they are.
I would submit to you, that since we are a nation of laws for some but not all and a nation with no southern, eastern , western or northern border, that prevents illegal entry, we are not a nation.
Why would God bother to mention a non nation in His book?
#90. To: sneakypete, GarySpFc, tomder55, liberator (#74)
It is my understanding that every book in the Bible was written long after the death of Christ.
You mean the New Testament?
"Long after" is how long in your understanding? The eyewitnesses to His works and words lived long after Jesus' death and resurrection. His Apostles/disciples were the main authors of the NT.
You have the crucifixion and resurrection occur circa AD 33.
Here's how the various books of the NT are dated as following:
A Chronological Order of the New Testament
From the link above you will see roughly 80% of all the NT books were penned in circulation before 70 AD. Which means from 33 AD until the actually penning of the various NT books, the Apostles who walked the earth with Christ were alive and were the 'bipedal' human based life form of the New Testament.
The arguments that the NT was written hundreds of years later in the 3rd Century AD don't hold water. We have church leaders and theologians in the late 1st century and throughout the 2nd century quoting entire Gospels and epistles in their theological and pastoral works. Add to this the era was one of persecution for Christians. They were spread out, did not see each other's works or letters and yet they all quote the very same Gospel and Epistles. That is evidence written versions of the NT texts were in wide cirulation throughout the Roman Empire.
"The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”"---Isaiah 40:8
#91. To: sneakypete (#75)
In other words,written from 100 to 200 years after the events written about.
With regards to the early church fathers AFTER the Apostles. Which means these men in the late 1st and early 2nd century had written copies in circulation. I went into that quite a bit in my previous post.
Who was the Jesus baby daddy?
Who was the Jesus mother,and who was she married to?
I recommend you read Luke chapter 1. Perhaps if you entered with the knowledge that God is the Creator of all things and Master of His own Creation, Luke chapter 1 would not be so difficult to understand.
The Son of God was manifest in the flesh as Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah. The woman with this high honor was Mary. Mary's bloodline reaches back through the tribe of Judah to King David. Mary was betrothed to Joseph when the following occurred:
Luke chapter 1:
26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”29 But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing will be impossible.”
38 Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.
"The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”"---Isaiah 40:8
#92. To: A Pole (#87)
Well, if one likes this "gospel", one might like Mormon books even better.
As far as I know, this is no 'gospel' and no one claims it is.
It is a fragment of papyrus of uncertain origin. Whether it is authentic or not, there's is no context that I am aware of that could possibly lead one to believe this is a fragment of a 'gospel'.
There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't
#93. To: A Pole, liberator, TooConservative (#87)
Well, if one likes this "gospel", one might like Mormon books even better.
EXACTLY....
"The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”"---Isaiah 40:8
#94. To: Don (#86)
Reproduction doesn't have to mean sex which produces children. Reproduction can also mean having spiritual children.
What does that mean?
Is a part of your claim based on a belief that sex has to be for reproduction purposes?
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#95. To: BobCeleste (#88) (Edited)
certainly not internationally if at all. But, if I do, I have no one to blame but myself, for I don't read or use commentary by others, all of my Bible studies and conversations are based upon what God said, not what man says He said.
Bob,it was people who wrote the books of the Bible,not God,and we all know that people are not infallible. All of us,regardless of who we are,tend to "color" our beliefs based on personal prejudices,likes,and histories.
Others even "color" their beliefs based on what they think will bring them power and wealth. These people are called "politicians".
And while I know you are wrong when it comes to Scripture and Christ,
No problem there. People that agree with me too much scare me a little. I think they want something.
Besides,I am not in love with my theories to the point where I confuse them with "facts that fit everyone".
Opinions are personal and it is only a happy coincidence when they are identical to indisputable facts.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#96. To: redleghunter (#90)
It is my understanding that every book in the Bible was written long after the death of Christ.You mean the New Testament?
"Long after" is how long in your understanding?
100 years,but only because you are forcing me to pick a number.
The truth is that two sane adults can witness an event while it is happening,and see and report it in different ways the same day. Plus we all know that memories tend to fade and even change as we grow older and look at things from a different and more mature POV.
Then there are the oral traditions that are handed down from illiterate generation to illiterate generation,and we all know those stories shift as time passes.
BTW,thanks for the chronological order. I had never seen that before.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#97. To: redleghunter (#91)
Who was the Jesus baby daddy?Who was the Jesus mother,and who was she married to?
Why not just give me a direct answer? We both know who the claimed father was,but I want to "hear" you say it.
I recommend you read Luke chapter 1. Perhaps if you entered with the knowledge that God is the Creator of all things and Master of His own Creation, Luke chapter 1 would not be so difficult to understand.
The flip side of that is perhaps if you were to read it with a open mind instead of as a True Believer,you might also see it differently?
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#98. To: sneakypete, GarySpFc, redleghunter (#96)
BTW,thanks for the chronological order.
BTW, that happens to be Gary's site.
Gary is pretty expert on this area of manuscripts and evidence concerning the dating of these NT books.
#99. To: TooConservative, GarySpFc (#98)
BTW,thanks for the chronological order.BTW, that happens to be Gary's site.
Thanks,and "Good for you,Gary!"
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
#100. To: cranky (#73) (Edited)
My understanding is none of them were written at the time Jesus was living.Any contemporaneous accounts of Jesus's life would be appreciated.
Not written while Jesus was alive, true. But later on, in cases many years. But then how many contemporary biographies are written while someone is actually alive? What we still have is multiple corroboration and sources of Jesus' words, deeds, and places during His life by several eyewitnesses. In all of history there is no testimony quite like it. Within context, "testimony" is not as simple as having just four Gospel writers hovering around Jesus with pad and pencil in hand. The Gospels were a collaborative effort as there were many eyewitnesses.
A brief overview of note:
“First Century Papyrus Rolls Did Not Usually Have the Author’s Name in the Text Itself.”The historical archaeological and literary evidence demonstrates that in the first century A.D. books were written and published with the title and name of the author placed at the end of the papyrus roll (also sometimes in the front) on which they were written or copied and on a tag attached to the outside of the papyrus roll called in Greek, a sillybos and in Latin a titulus. They were not usually placed in the text itself.
This was the normal custom of identifying the author of a book in the Roman world in the first century. The author did not normally identify himself in the text itself, but like today’s title page, his name was placed along with a title in a location on the document but outside the text. Several rolled up papyrus rolls would be stored in a round canister called a capsa with their tags placed at their tops so each roll could be easily identified.
There is no historical archaeological or literary evidence that the four NT gospels did not follow this normal custom of having the names of the authors of the gospels identified in this way when they first published and distributed their original gospels and their copies. All subsequent copies of papyrus rolls would also follow this practice.
In fact, as we have demonstrated in our article entitled “Authorship of the NT Gospels” the authors of the four NT gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were well-known as the authors and their authorship was never disputed by the early church.
(Matthew): The universal testimony of the early church fathers is that Matthew the Apostle wrote the Gospel of Matthew in both Hebrew and Greek.
The Time Period of the Publishing of Matthew’s Gospel
Matthew’s first version/edition of his gospel was when he went to other lands. There are two lines of evidence which give us the general time period this happened. It had to have happened after the Jerusalem council in 50 A.D. where the specifics of the gospel and its relation to the Mosaic Law and the gentiles was finally defined. This coincides with what Irenaeus says that Matthew’s gospel was published during the time Peter and Paul were preaching and establishing the church in Rome.
Matthew wrote his gospel for the Jewish Christians that they might understand how Jesus fulfilled Old Testament prophecy thus proving that he was indeed the messiah and Savior of Israel.
(Mark): The historical literary evidence demonstrates that Mark, the close associate of Peter the apostle, wrote the Gospel of Mark from the preaching of Peter and published it first in a private edition for the church at Rome and then in public edition for the church at large.
Mark was requested by certain Roman Christians to write down Peter’s testimony of Jesus after Peter had left Rome.
(Luke): The historical literary evidence demonstrates that Luke, the close associate of Paul the apostle, wrote the Gospel of Luke and published it after the publication of the private edition of Mark’s gospel and before the publication of the public edition of Mark’s Gospel.
The Gospel of Luke was composed for Gentiles who had become Christians.
(John): The historical literary evidence demonstrates that John the Apostle wrote and published the Gospel of John after the publication of the other three gospels while he was living in Ephesus.
The Gospel of John was composed by John at the urging of his Christian friends to complement the Synoptic Gospels by providing a Gospel that was focused on the spiritual truths taught by Jesus and demonstrated in his life and ministry.
http://www.jesusevidences.com/originntgospels/originntgospels.php
Additional notes from another source:
Four Gospels – The Authors
The authors of the four Gospels each bring a unique perspective:
- Matthew had been a tax-collector, an occupation which reaped the same dislike as many feel for tax-collectors today. Matthew’s account begins with the genealogy of Jesus through the line of King David. The account of Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem is known the world over as the Nativity. We also read of Jesus choosing the original 12 disciples, His well-known Sermon on the Mount (Beatitudes), the parables He shared, and the account of Jesus walking on water.
Chapter 26 details the betrayal by Judas Iscariot and the Last Supper, more accurately known as the Passover Meal (Seder). Matthew ends his account with Jesus’ death on the cross, His resurrection from the dead, and in chapter 28, Jesus issues the Great Commission. - Mark was not one of the original 12 disciples, but followed and learned from Paul during his first journey as a missionary. Tradition says that Mark later became a close associate of the Apostle Peter and the Gospel of Mark is Peter’s retelling of the events. The book of Mark is reportedly the first of the Gospels to be written (around AD 55) and records more miracles than any of the other Gospels.
Mark begins setting the stage of Jesus’ ministry by featuring the ministry of John the Baptist. John was God-sent to “prepare the way of the Lord.” He preached primarily to the Roman Christians on “baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.” Though people flocked to hear Mark, he declared another would come who was even mightier than he.
He stated in Mark 1:8 “I baptized you with water; but he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” After John baptized Jesus (as an example to all), Mark records much concerning Jesus’ public service. Covering Jesus’ ministry in Galilee and beyond, Mark records numerous miracles of healing, casting out demons, and feeding “five thousand from five loaves of bread and two fishes.” Jesus preached about resisting temptation, blessing little children and serving others. Jesus said to resist false gods and false prophets and promised His return for all believers.
Though Mark’s book contains some of the same topics of the other Gospels such as the Crucifixion and Resurrection, he concludes by letting us know that the Lord ascended to heaven and is sitting “on the right hand of God.” About one-third of Mark’s gospel is devoted to the last week of Jesus earthly life. - Luke, unlike the other original disciples, was uniquely well educated as a physician,2 and was a Greek and a Gentile Christian. It is reported that his book was written around AD 60 (about the same time as Matthew was written) from either Rome or Caesarea.
Luke traveled with Paul on his missionary journeys. He presents Jesus as the Savior available to the world and as a compassionate healer and teacher. Luke writes a treasured account of the birth of Jesus in chapter 2. However, he most accurately records the actions and teachings of Christ from the very beginning and helps his readers comprehend the sure way of salvation. His book attests to the way we are to live and become a faithful child of God.
John, the son of Zebedee, was called a “Son of Thunder.” His book was written a bit later than the others around AD 85-90 after the destruction of Jerusalem (in AD 70). This book is often called the book of love.
John’s portrayal of Jesus and His love is clearly shows that Jesus is not just an ordinary human being. John illustrates how Jesus is indeed the eternal Son of God and tells us of Jesus meeting with people personally, preaching to large crowds, and lovingly training His disciples. John shows that this divine man offered “life” and changed the hearts of people from hard and hate-filled to kind and loving. Though not every listener responded or accepted His gift of eternal life, Jesus continued to reveal God to those who would hear.
John recorded many of Jesus’ acts and teachings, as do the first three Gospels, but he distinctively interprets them so we might apply spiritual meaning. He says in John 20:31 “But these have been recorded so that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and so that through believing you may have life in his name.” John uses spiritually pertinent words such as love, life, light and living water3 to further impact His message of salvation that is from Jesus to us all.http://www.allabouttruth.org/four-gospels.htm
#101. To: sneakypete, Vicomte13 (#59)
Vic: "Does it [the theory] that Jesus had a wife or not...change ANYTHING about the faith?"PETE: "Only for people who were raised to believe that sex is dirty. For them,it pretty much shatters their whole sense of what Christianity is all about."
Pete, you still miss the mark by miles. AND... you're projecting. Sex may certainly be "dirty" to YOU, but there is such a thing as what is appropriate -- even in Pagan-Land where moral relativity reigns supreme (as your "God.") Sex in certain contexts one of God's gifts to both man and woman (as husband and wife.)
You never concede you monumental ignorance -- especially on a subject that you are completely oblivious on. This is an alien subject for you.
#102. To: sneakypete (#60)
Are you masquerading as a snarky 12 year old today or...spit-balling teenager from the back of Miss Crabapple's class?
FAIL.
#103. To: sneakypete (#94)
Pete, I don't know what kind of sexual hang up you have going: it isn't really my business. But, if Christians had a problem, they wouldn't be having the many kids they do.
#104. To: sneakypete (#56)
Some people just can't stand to see their dogmas put on a chain.
So sez the rebel against truth and victim of "Gawd" and Atheist (oh, sorry -- "agnostic"-Atheist.) You are painfully oblivious to your own triple-wrapped chain of lies around yourself as though they're some kind feathered boa of vanity.
#105. To: Don, sneakypete (#103)
Pete, I don't know what kind of sexual hang up you have going: it isn't really my business.
I don't wanna know. It's too ugly.
#106. To: sneakypete, GarySpFc (#96)
The truth is that two sane adults can witness an event while it is happening,and see and report it in different ways the same day. Plus we all know that memories tend to fade and even change as we grow older and look at things from a different and more mature POV.
The minimum standard for witness testimony in the Torah (Law) is for two witnesses. However, how about hundreds?
1 Corinthians 15
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
BTW,thanks for the chronological order. I had never seen that before.
By God's Grace, the link is the hard work of your SF buddy GarySpFc. It's a great site to visit if one has questions about the Bible and the Christian faith.
Then there are the oral traditions that are handed down from illiterate generation to illiterate generation,and we all know those stories shift as time passes.
I would agree that the goat herder culture of the Hebrews in Moses time has literacy challenges to say the least...according to our modern standards. However, Moses himself was raised in Pharoah's household. That would include the best of ancient Egyptian education and knowledge. As witnessed in the Book of Exodus, God actually writes and gives Moses most of the Torah Laws. Then we see portions of the book where Moses writes down what God tells him. Since the Sinai sojourning there was a written record of Torah (the Law) handed down. In the Book of Joshua, God commands him to write it down again on stone to be preserved. We see throughout the Hebrew historical books of the Bible the people falling away, God sends prophets to warn and correct them, and we see instances of the written Law found to confirm the warnings of the prophets. Not just word or deed of the prophets. All of God's words also came with His Power. Miracles and signs. So even in the OT we have three consistent but differing sources of witness. The written word; the prophets who God spoke to and the demonstrated Power of God over His own creation.
So I for one would not hang too much on the 'illiterate generation to illiterate generation.' From the time of Moses, when things were written down, to the time of Christ a priestly office was established reading Torah and transcribing what was already written. As the Hebrew language progressed so did the priestly office in the development of language. God also commanded every Israelite coming out of Egypt to have the 10 commandments written on their door posts, taught to their sons and established dressing attire to remind them of the 10 Commandments. So that covers the oral end and the written end, and the priestly end of it is the teaching (hearing) part.
Sometime future maybe days, weeks, years etc. the world will get one more chance to witness all of the above on a widescale basis--- written+prophets+Power---However, the Bible tells us most people will EVEN THEN reject God for the pursuit of their own pleasures.
For Christians, everyday life we have the written word, the fellowship of believers and the miracle of the New Birth. This is what Jesus Christ left us until He comes again in Glory and Power.
"The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”"---Isaiah 40:8
#107. To: sneakypete, Don (#58)
The Bible was obviously written by women-hating homosexuals...
Would you like a box of Kleenex, or shall we just call the Waaaaambulance?
You DO know it is just a book that was written by many different people and even edited by more people who decided what to leave in and what to leave out,right?
Well, DUH.
The Bible is God's inspired word; It is COMMON SENSE that He willed the "edit" of EXACTLY what remained of that inspired word. Are you such a simpleton that you believe the Creator of all things does not nor can not impose His will?
But if you wanted "Gawd's" own autograph, Moses knew a little something about *that* after he emerged with the Ten Commandments. But because you didn't see this happen in Nam or on Tee-Bee, it can't be true either, huh?
#108. To: sneakypete (#97)
The flip side of that is perhaps if you were to read it with a open mind instead of as a True Believer,you might also see it differently?
The flip side is, Luke chapter 1 is crystal clear what was going on. Jesus Christ was to be born. Son of the Living God. Immanuel "God with us."
Now maybe the Mormans 'read it' different as they believe Gabriel did not show up but God the Father had 'sex' with Mary. Now the Mormons are an interesting case. Joseph Smith fits your category of religious fraud. He received personal visions no one else witnessed much like Muhammad did. None of what either one wrote came with the Power of God. No miracles, no fulfilled prophecy etc. In fact both the writings of Smith and Muhammad have predictions in them that never came to be. The Biblical standard for prophecy is a 1.000 batting average. Anything else...false prophet, false message.
"The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”"---Isaiah 40:8
#109. To: sneakypete (#61)
The way *I* see it,Jesus was a threat to the political powers that be at the time,and if anything,THEY would be the ones that promoted the idea that this man in his 30's only hung around with hairy-legged men and never had sex or any other close relations with any female.
Well, you got the first part right; Jesus DID threaten the PTB at the time.
As to the reading the rest of your cartoonish theory....I would strongly suggest that you NOT consider Moonshine the "Breakfast of Champions."
What better way to turn people away from a political threat to your power than to suggest the leader of this new movement is a homosexual?
HUH??!? Bwaaahaa!! The insanity is strong with you.
#110. To: cranky (#73)
Any contemporaneous accounts of Jesus's life would be appreciated.
If you knew the scant contemporaneous evidence of Caesar's Gallic Wars, you may see why your request is at best an uneducated approach.
"The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”"---Isaiah 40:8
#111. To: sneakypete (#62)
No,it is a legitimate question. Please answer it. What would be wrong with Jesus having a wife?
Nothing. IF this agenda-based claim were true; AND Jesus wasn't who He said He was -- SINLESS.
Are you so programmed to think of sex as an evil act that you think Jesus would go to hell for having sex? Even inside a marriage?
Your problem is that you can't help but think of Jesus Christ as an undisciplined, egomaniacal, selfish, horny, fool. In other words, more or less like you or anyone else that's ever lived. NEWSFLASH: HE WASN'T. ...
Not only that, "meeting a nice girl" and marrying wasn't His mission in this life. But because you disbelieve Jesus entire reason for being born, you can only think in your own terms, reasons, and purpose of "life."
It [the lying meme of Jesus' "wife"] cuts right to the heart of it because if you don't think of sex as something evil or "dirty",why would you care about Jesus having had a wife?
If you can't understand a subject, you invent your own reality. Why is that my fault?
#112. To: sneakypete (#63)
Uhhhh....You missed the mark by approximately a thousand miles.Really?
How?
Please give me facts,not dogmatic faith.
You can lead an azz to water, but you can't make him drink it.
#113. To: Liberator (#100)
http://www.allabouttruth.org/four-gospels.htm
Good post.
"The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”"---Isaiah 40:8
#114. To: redleghunter, sneakypete, GarySpFc, tomder55, CZ82 (#67)
Here's some perspective. There are over 5,000 owners of the Topps 1967 baseball card of Mickey Mantle.Here it is BTW:
Now, some collector comes along almost 50 years later and explains to everyone in possession of the 5,000 1967 Mickey Mantle Topps baseball cards that what they have is actually a fraud. That 'he' is in possession of the one and only authentic 1967 Mickey Mantle baseball card. That Topps had it wrong. TV had it wrong. Thousands of pictures had it wrong. But this lone collector says "THIS IS IT" instead:
Lol...excellent. Even a ten year old should understand that example.
And then all it takes are a bunch of "experts," researchers," and "scientists" to appear on Yahoo, CNN, and National Geographic to brainwash the pods into their alternative reality. ("But...but...Joe Schmoe's Mickey Mantle card is REAL!! Our well-tooled brainiacs in from the bowels of Columbia U., Hahvahd, and Princeton" say so!")
(Hey Unc -- whose card was Red supposed to use as an example? Rusty Greer?? ;-)
#115. To: redleghunter (#113)
Thanks, brutha.
#116. To: redleghunter (#110)
If you knew the scant contemporaneous evidence of Caesar's Gallic Wars
I know one of his generals also published a work on the Gallic Wars.
And I know Caesar's accounts were commented on by contemporaries.
And I'm fairly certain evidence exists of battles waged during the campaigns.
So I accept the Gallic Wars actually occurred which doesn't mean I wholeheartedly accept Caesar's version.
There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't
#117. To: cranky (#11)
Some people prefer proof to faith, I guess.
Oh! You might want to research the difference between evidence between proof and evidence. Proof is subjective, whereas evidence is objective.
The Christian faith is based on historical evidence.
Error, indeed, is never set forth in its naked deformity, lest, being thus exposed, it should at once be detected. But it is craftily decked out in an attractive dress, so as by its outward form, to make it appear to the inexperienced … more true than truth itself—Irenaeus, Against Heresies
#118. To: cranky (#116)
I know one of his generals also published a work on the Gallic Wars.
That general is long dead..."Jim the man is dead." Where is the manuscript evidence for the generals book? Is there an original copy? Did the Parthian Empire and warring Germanic tribes create a contemporaneous history of the Gallic Wars?
If the answer is no (and it is), then why do you believe what Gaius Julius Caesar said in his own book, but the Bible authors somehow don't get the same standards?
And I know Caesar's accounts were commented on by contemporaries.
All dead now. Do we have their original autographs. No we don't. Do we have their manuscripts? If so, how many are there and what was the time lapse between the supposed autographs and earliest manuscript? Hint I gave the answer up thread on Caesar's Gallic Wars. There was a gap of 1,000 years. NT? less than 100 years. So you see why I think your demands are illogical and quite underinformed.
And I'm fairly certain evidence exists of battles waged during the campaigns.
So I accept the Gallic Wars actually occurred which doesn't mean I wholeheartedly accept Caesar's version.
We know about the battles because people back then wrote about them. The winners wrote about those battles. The losers were crated in cages taken to Rome where many met their untimely demise.
So we know only from the Roman perspective about Roman battles. As we find out about Christ from Christians.
So your model for evidence doesn't hold up to even things you thought were clearly true in the history books. There is only one place left...Deckard's threads on conspiracy theories. Because that is where you end up, if you think Christianity was fabricated 100s of years later and no one wrote anything down until hundreds of years later. That would be the biggest scam in the history of mankind.
If you want someone to come out and tell you..."Yes what you read in the Bible is true, Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God. He died in our place for the forgiveness of sins and rose three days later from the dead thus conquering death; That Jesus Christ changes lives and wants no one to perish but to come to Him in repentance...I'll tell you....It's true!
"The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”"---Isaiah 40:8
#119. To: redleghunter (#118)
Did the Parthian Empire and warring Germanic tribes create a contemporaneous history of the Gallic Wars?
Aulus Hirtius was one of Caesar's general during the gallic wars. He also wrote a history of one of the campaigns. Many others may have. None have survived or been discovered, if they did (that I know of).
Cicero (a contemporary of Caesar's and a Senator) critiqued Caesar's writing while Caesar and Hirtius were living (and presumably at least a few of the veterans).
No one disputed that a series of conflict had occurred. So I have two independent first person accounts, evidence that the works were widely discussed at the time the purported events took place and physical evidence of battles in that same time period and at those same locations.
I choose to believe there were a series of conflicts in Gaul between 58 and 51 bc that Julius Caesar participated in.
So shoot me.
There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't
#120. To: cranky (#119)
Aulus Hirtius was one of Caesar's general during the gallic wars. He also wrote a history of one of the campaigns. Many others may have. None have survived or been discovered, if they did (that I know of).
Cicero (a contemporary of Caesar's and a Senator) critiqued Caesar's writing while Caesar and Hirtius were living (and presumably at least a few of the veterans).
No one disputed that a series of conflict had occurred. So I have two independent first person accounts, evidence that the works were widely discussed at the time the purported events took place and physical evidence of battles in that same time period and at those same locations.
I choose to believe there were a series of conflicts in Gaul between 58 and 51 bc that Julius Caesar participated in.
So shoot me.
I'm not going to shoot you:) In fact I agree with you. Yes those battles did happen because we have manuscript evidence.
What I don't understand is why you impose a different standard on the New Testament manuscripts. All of what you wrote above about deputies, historians and contemporary writings the NT meets or exceeds the standards of all of antiquity writings.
The 12 disciples walked the earth with Jesus Christ. They witnessed His Resurrection. They spread the Good News of the Resurrection throughout the known world and planted churches. More writings ensued. Different authors, stating the same facts. All located in differing locations but united in the Gospel. The last Apostle, John lived to the end of the 1st Century AD. By then his writings (epistles) along with the second generation of Christians were circulating the New Testament texts; also writing their commentaries, homilies and confessions.
These churches scattered all over the Roman empire were persecuted and most went underground for worship and fellowship. When persecution was lifted we have Christians throughout the Roman empire comparing NT texts and amazingly most of them had all of them.
"The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”"---Isaiah 40:8
#121. To: Liberator (#101)
Sex may certainly be "dirty" to YOU
You clearly have me confused with someone else.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
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