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Title: Franklin Graham: Secularists have taken control of America
Source:
One News Now
URL Source: http://www.onenewsnow.com/culture/2 ... -have-taken-control-of-america
Published: Feb 4, 2015
Author: Michael F. Haverluck
Post Date: 2015-02-13 14:14:58 by redleghunter
Keywords: None
Views: 45139
Comments: 154
Addressing the crowd at the Oklahoma State Evangelism Conference last week, world-renowned evangelist Franklin Graham admittedly took a different spin than his iconic father, Billy Graham, on the podium and criticized America, declaring that "secularists have taken control of our country." The president of the Billy Graham Evangelist Association admonished believers in America for standing by while godless, democratically appointed government officials rip the Christian foundation of the country out from under them. "Our country has changed, and we've got to take a stand," Graham exhorted the Oklahoma City crowd, according to The Christian Post. "We live in a secular society led by people that call themselves progressives. Secularists … have taken control of our country. And we have just sat back and it's happened. And we haven't even realized it's happened." Not my father's world Graham then said that he is not afraid to talk about many of the issues his father didn't typically address and critique, noting that the bulk of the senior Graham's ministry took place during a time before American society thoroughly divorced itself from God. He explained how Billy Graham's school days weren't riddled with fears that students would be punished for handing out Christian literature, forming Bible clubs or leading organized prayer. "Well, you say, 'Now Franklin, you father wouldn't get onto these subjects,'" insinuated Graham, who is also the president of Samaritan's Purse, a nonprofit Christian humanitarian organization. "Wait a second … My father, when he was going to school, they had a Bible in school. When he was going to school, they had the Ten Commandments on the wall. When he was going to school, you could pray in school, and the teachers would lead in those prayers." Since his father, the 92-year-old Billy Graham, grew up decades before God, Bible reading and prayer were removed from the public schools in 1963 — which is also the year that evolution replaced creation as the dominant teaching about the origins of man and the universe — the younger 62-year-old Graham argues that the changed times call for him to speak on the many moral issues that Christians now face on a daily basis. "The secularists and the humanists … you mention the name of Christ, they jump all over you," Graham contended. "I get jumped on all the time. I don't really care." Secularization infiltration Graham went on to argue that the secularization of society has long since extended beyond the schoolhouse gate, infiltrating virtually every facet of American society. Graham "It's all over the country," Graham insisted. "You have the secularists and the humanists who are wanting to deny that Jesus ever existed." Billy Graham's son then talked about the ironic twist that came about in the late 1980s and early 1990s — a time when the Cold War ended and hearts went cold to God, as secularism, socialism and communism entered into American education, society and politics full force. "When the Berlin wall came down, everybody said: 'We won,'" Graham remembered. "And secularism came. And secularism and communism are the same thing. They're godless. They're antichrist." Only One hope, not 12 Graham argues that America is not what it used to be, as it has turned its back on the Christian principles upon which it was founded. And as another presidential election draws near, he contends that conservative politicians aren't the answer. "America has changed and it's not coming back unless the Church takes a stand," Graham insisted. "Now I'm not talking about Baptists or Republicans or Tea Party … I have no confidence that any of these politicians or any party is going to turn this country around." In the midst of the current political frenzy taking place, with a dozen conservative prospective candidates promising that they can turn America around from its godless, destructive path, Graham promises that no politician can deliver the country from falling apart. "There is only one who can save — only one … Jesus," Graham added. "You see, Jesus is in the boat. All we have to do is call Him, call on His name." As godless policies and laws continue to work their way into American society — from God being ousted from the public schools in 1963, to Roe v. Wade ushering in legalized abortion in 1973, to the floodgate of same-sex "marriage" opening in 2004, to the normalization of homosexual behavior in the military in 2011 — Graham warns that America will be judged for its disobedience and repudiation of God's Word. "There are storms that are coming," Graham foretold. "The only hope for this country is for men and women of God to stand up and take a stand."
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#114. To: GarySpFC (#112)
(Edited)
A government can be free from religion without being separated from God. Jefferson intended America to be free of coercive, state-established, religious Ba'al-shyte -- "Christian" and otherwise. In America the relationship between the Individual and the Creator is NOT within the purview of temporal government.
"the intent of the First Amendment is clearly that the federal government was not to establish a national religion in the English manner." In the English manner.
But Thomas Jefferson, who drafted that "immortal statement" -- wasn't deemed worthy by the religiously petrified idiots on the Texas school board of being included in the list of Revolution inspiring Philosophical thinkers. FAIL. FAIL. FAIL. { edit } A$$HOLES!
Well Texas should be thanked for getting white men, other than Boone, Crockett and Houston back in the history books.
"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)
lol
Excepting the ... communist - atheist - evolution - fascist - catholic manner --- short name- dieversty ! The kingdom supersedes the ussa ! There's a prophecy it ... beast - false prophet - anti christ --- will be toppled ! Deist is the name of their fake god - supremacist religion - ideology !
If you ... don't use exclamation points --- you should't be typeing ! Commas - semicolons - question marks are for girlie boys !
But Thomas Jefferson, who drafted that "immortal statement" -- wasn't deemed worthy by the religiously petrified idiots on the Texas school board of being included in the list of Revolution inspiring Philosophical thinkers. FAIL. FAIL. FAIL. Inserting God. The committee that edited Thomas Jefferson’s draft of the Declaration of Independence altered Jefferson’s vague “from that equal creation” to the more direct “endowed by their Creator.”
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
And neither was the government to interfere with the exercise of religion.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
Inserting God. The committee that edited Thomas Jefferson’s draft of the Declaration of Independence altered Jefferson’s vague “from that equal creation” to the more direct “endowed by their Creator.” Nice find, Gary. Appears Jefferson was hoping the insertion of a weaselly phrase (“from that equal creation”) in the "DoI would bamboozle the Christian Founders and avoid crediting God, our "Creator" for man's "certain unalienable rights." Why didn't he pull it off? Sherman and Livingston were both strong Christians and influential Founders in their own right, amd most likely veto'd it immediately, along with the savvy Franklin. I'd assume Franklin brokered the compromise of "endowed by their Creator," which may be the single most important phrase in the DoI, carrying with it the weight of The Almighty's own stamp of approval and entitlement -- NOT "man's. VxH -- you do realize that because of your one obsessive single issue of what you deem as a "diss" of Jefferson, you've aligned yourself with the ousted out-going Democrat-liberal faction of Texas School Board members...don't you? Their agenda was a decidedly secular humanist, leftist, revisionist, pro-abortion, pro-gay, pro-subversion, revisionist propaganda. Boo-freakin'-Hoo about Jefferson's elimination from the Leftists' list of "Social Revolutionaries." ALTHOUGH on second thought, if the context of Jefferson's standing as a "revolutionary" to your allies is "anti-Christian" or agnostic, perhaps you and the Leftists at the Texas School Board are indeed losing your Patron Saint of Heathenism. Get over your fetish for the confused Deist Jefferson, your hostility toward 'The Focus on the Family' and the newly minted, sane conservative Texas School board. Time to infuse the young pods with the truth. Christians: Standing between tyranny and slavery, the sane and insane since 1774. NOT Deists.
Who cares about your strawmen? But in this case I'll bite... As to your question, wouldn't you find your answer in Jefferson's notes and letters? After all, isn't HE the one who owns a Koran? I've never heard of such silliness. You mean if not for the overwhelming Christian Founders objecting, Jefferson would have embedded the following language within the DoI, "in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination." Tommy Jefferson is painfully diminished in my eyes.
Grand Experiment There was an old man who was a great admirer of democracy and public education. So close to his heart did he hold both institutions that he tried to bring them together into one grand experiment, a public college where students would practice self-governance. There would be no regulations; the goodwill and judgment of the students would suffice. After years of planning, the school was finally opened. The old man was overjoyed. But as the months went by, students proved time and time again that they were not the models of discipline and discernment the old man envisioned. They skipped classes, drank to excess, and wasted hours in frivolous pursuits. One night, 14 students, disguised by masks and “animated with wine,” went on a rampage that ended in a brawl. One struck a professor with a brick, and another used a cane on his victim. In response, the college’s trustees convened a special meeting. The old man, now 82 years old and very frail, was asked to address the student body. In his remarks, he recalled the lofty principles upon which the college had been founded. He said he had expected more—much more—from the students. He even confessed that this was the most painful event of his life. Suddenly, he stopped speaking. Tears welled up in his failing eyes. He was so overcome with grief that he sat down, unable to go on. His audience was so touched that at the conclusion of the meeting the 14 offenders stepped forward to admit their guilt. But they could not undo the damage already done. A strict code of conduct and numerous onerous regulations were instituted at the college. The old man’s experiment had failed. Why? Because he took for granted the one essential ingredient necessary for success: virtue. Only a virtuous people can secure and maintain their freedom. A short time later, on the Fourth of July, the old man passed away. Engraved on his tombstone were the simple words that reflected the success and failure of his most important experiments: “Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence and father of the University of Virginia.” Now, as Paul Harvey says, you know the rest of the story. Imprimis, April 1997, Volume 26, Number 4, Hillsdale College, MI, pp. 1-2
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
In YOUR words. Yeah, how 'bout that? I know it hurts :-( Jefferson was playing stenographer for Sherman, Livingstone, and Franklin. And NOT before they edited, redacted, and bolstered the final draft. Then at last TJ's essay was found to be representing the Declaration of Independence on behalf of ALL the Founders. Fallible and Uninspired much? Not often. Only when I'm fed a steaming heap of historical revisionism while entertaining a drooling Fanboi of Tommy Jefferson, aka the only so-called American "Revolutionary." You figure out if Unitarians believe in the Trinity yet, Super Parrot? And it matters...WHY?? Oh, where are my manners -- I had NO idea you were holding your relgious service at LF. Do you burn incense? Do you make exceptions for non-Masons?
A short time later, on the Fourth of July, the old man passed away. Engraved on his tombstone were the simple words that reflected the success and failure of his most important experiments: “Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence and father of the University of Virginia.” Outstanding story -- never heard it. Jefferson was an idealist. Fortunately, he lived during an extraordinary window of time in American history where he was able to articulate his idealism into deed -- on the back of Christian virtue. As noted, without a virtuous, Godly people, discipline, honor, and discernment devolve. Man guided by secular humanist principles inevitably debases himself, even with the best intentions. The well-meaning Jefferson's personal experiment proved that. Had Jefferson lived during the 1960s, "Kumbaya" would have been his license plate.
You mad, bro? :-(
Pretty good assessment actually...
Your Stalag camp guard mask is sliding off. I know Boris -- unless you think you can get a handle on a 6-3, 250 pound linebacker, go take your chances (he lives in Hawaii.)
During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. --James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments; 20 June 1785 http://press- pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendI_religions43.html
It means the Virginia Act was not a secular skeptic manifesto. Let's look at it: I see it differently. It may not be an obvious "secular skeptic manifesto," but it's open to interpretation. I'd call it a "Cynic's Manifesto." Jefferson softens the blow(s) by opening with "Almighty God," mention of "holy Author," and a few mentions of "our religion" to demonstrate who side he's on (for the time being.) The singular ad nausem thrust of Jefferson rapidly appears to be his laser-beam focus and obsession on..."our religion"; The "religion" or Christian faith that 52 of 56 signers of the DoI called their own; That same "religion" which supplied the necessary fount of strength and faith to draw upon and endure in the name of The Alighty God. The same may be said of the majority of Continental Army soldiers.... Suddenly Thomas Jefferson advises being over-cautious about "religion," reminding his readers that "religion" is a two-edged sword. (But WAS IT??) He gushes one, assuming the pitfalls of "impious" pastors and churches that are destined to be baiting, coercive, injurious, infringing upon, and prone to bribes and coercion. So...is Jefferson an obsessed crusader, opining on a personal thesis regarding the threat of Christianity to the governance of the new republic? OR does he sincerely fear that the freedom of common man and governance will eventually be usurped by "religion," who he sees as vulnerable prey to the wiles of predator pastors and ministries? The man was...paranoid, and a closet anti-Christian. Which is exactly why the Left lionizes Jefferson and regards him as their "Father of our (secular) Country."
--James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments; 20 June 1785 Madison is obviously referring to the fifteen centuries Holy Roman Catholic Church rule. The Founders and immigrants to America had been fleeing CC prosecution and seeking religious (Protestant-Christian) freedom for about 150 years by that time. They ultimately established such a place. The "fruits" are obvious: The eradication of the invading Islamic hordes. The Enlightenment. The end of the Vassal/Serfdom days. (Now lets put ALL OTHER political-religious systems on trial since 1 A.D.) The establishment of United States of America. The Printing of individual Bible and mass dissemination of the Gospel. The subsequent 200 years+ of liberty and freedom and standard of living and opportunity second to none.
Don't forget thousands of Christian hospitals, orphanages, schools, and universties established throughout the world.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
Christians: Standing between tyranny and slavery, the sane and insane since 1774. NOT Deists. Indeed.
"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)
The almost fifteen centuries of legal Christianity Madison referred to is 325-1785, which is almost 15 centuries. He did not limit his remarks to Catholics, and I don't it's justified to read that into it. He simply did not want religion and government to mix. ___________________________________________________________________________ Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history James Madison, Detached Memoranda; ca. 1817
Note - the Madison quote above is a complete sentence. I didn't get the period in when I copied it.
Yes, who can forget the deeds, acts, and tenets based on Christian Charity, and taught at Christian-established Universities. Not only in America, but on FIVE CONTINENTS. "Christian Charity" and learning has been embedded into America's character and expectations, thanks to America's majority Christian settlers, educators, and clergy -- those who in large part forged the new nation of America. It is odd how secular humanists believe they can merely cherry pick certain quotes out of context of certain Founders, and claim their singluar quotes define the total opinion of said founders (Madison in this case.) These same people totally dismiss and ignore not only the other quotes and overall opinions of Madison (or Jefferson's, OR Adams), but especially ANY which endorse the tenets of Christianity Charity and with it Christian ethics and morals.
He simply did not want religion and government to mix. Let's be real here. Although Madison did speak of a "wall of separation," it is evident that the purpose of said "wall" was to prevent Congress from passing a national law to establish a national religion. HELLO. To your ill-conceived point -- even Christian Founders wanted a religious governance -- why is this news to you? If they had, don't you think the 52 of 56 Christian Founders would have had their way?? If there's ANY such "encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies," it's been the religions/cults of Islam, Secular Humanism, New-Age sects, Masonics, and Atheism which have encroached, swallowed up, and subverted the original spirit of the Bill of Rights and Constitution. The Truth is on our side -- Christianity will NOT be your ilks' whipping boys -- be they Madison or Jefferson. It is clear neither you or Madison are actually able to put Christianity on trial here (not that Madison actually is) and not especially within the context of the American Founder's near unanimous endorsement of Bible-bases ethics, morality, and virtues of Christianity. 1) I already did the math of "15 centuries" -- I didn't need the dates. But was the entire 1500 years totally oppressive, relative to ongoing governances and previous 4,000 years? 2) The Vatican and it's tenticles of power and authority may have been acting "on behalf of Jesus Christ," but unfortunately for the most part, they used "Jesus Christ" as nothing but a political sledgehammer, for power's sake. 3) It was mostly the persecuted Christians who left Old World Europe, establishing the "New World," where the Protestant Christians became the majority of our Founders, AND from which the tentacles of the Vatican's power could not gain a foothold. 4) At the risk of redundancy, Madison has referring mostly to the 15 centuries of Vatican rule (or shall we also toss in the rule of Islam, Heathens, Atheists, Huns, and Vikings during those 15 centuries?) And from that same link you so proudly hold up as Madison's definitive opinion of Christianity, from 1785, in Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, the very same James Madison wrote: "We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." Madison was in the habit of making notes in his personal Bible, wrote this in Acts, Chapter 19: “Grace, it is the free gift of God. Luke. 12. 32-v.32. “Giver more blessed than the receiver. v. 35. “To neglect the means for our own preservation is to tempt God: and to trust to them is to neglect Him. v. 3 & Ch. 27. v. 31. “Humility, the better any man is, the lower thoughts he has of himself. v. 19. “Ministers to take heed to themselves & their flock. v. 28. “The Apostles did greater miracles than Christ, in the matter, not manner, of them. v. 11.” Madison, September of 1773, in a letter to William Bradford, wrote: Source: http://www.faithofourfathers.net/madison.html
Gary hit on the main point early on. The founders and people of mid-late 18th century America were influenced by the First Great Awakening. They had a contempt for state sanctioned church affiliation. Virginia's history of rebelling against Church of England taxes and land rights rubbed the founders the wrong way. They neither wanted the bishop of Rome let alone the bishop of Canterbury calling the shots. Just ask the Presbyterians of the era:)
"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)
They neither wanted the bishop of Rome let alone the bishop of Canterbury calling the shots. Just ask the Presbyterians of the era:) BINGO! On all counts. There was contempt across the board for ANY state-sanctioned church affiliation. The Founders were in agreement on one thing: That NO specific Christian sect was to call any civil shots, whether the authority to tax, enforce laws, or govern. This from Christians of ALL denominations. SINCE DAY ONE. (it didn't mean Christian influence, heritage, and traditions were eventually to be gutted by our ruling Cultist Secular Humanist gubmint either, as today.) Most people are absolutely ignorant or oblivious of American history, and especially the tumult between various Christian sects by the mid to end of the 18th century. Countless sects were clashing, and causing division and confusion. It was obviously a problem for a fledging unified America, but addressed adroitly by the Christian Founders of those many sects -- tempered by the likes of Franklin and Jefferson. That the pods have been brainwashed 200 years later to believe the USA is any kind of theocracy is a (dis)credit to secular humanism's steady but sure propaganda and assault on America's Judeo-Christian based standards ethical and moral virtues, and heritage.
Let's be real here. Although Madison did speak of a "wall of separation," it is evident that the purpose of said "wall" was to prevent Congress from passing a national law to establish a national religion. HELLO. To your ill-conceived point -- even Christian Founders wanted a religious governance -- why is this news to you? If they had, don't you think the 52 of 56 Christian Founders would have had their way?? Not sure the point you're making. You say they wanted religious governance, then you say they could have had it if they wanted it. Did they or didn't they? If there's ANY such "encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies," it's been the religions/cults of Islam, Secular Humanism, New-Age sects, Masonics, and Atheism which have encroached, swallowed up, and subverted the original spirit of the Bill of Rights and Constitution. The Truth is on our side -- Christianity will NOT be your ilks' whipping boys -- be they Madison or Jefferson. You make no sense. Madison was not anti-Christian nor did I claim he was. He said Christianity had its greatest luster before it got mixed with government. It's a very simple point, he did not want the two to mix. It is clear neither you or Madison are actually able to put Christianity on trial here (not that Madison actually is) and not especially within the context of the American Founder's near unanimous endorsement of Bible-bases ethics, morality, and virtues of Christianity. Madison said legal Christianity, not Christianity. Words mean things. 4) At the risk of redundancy, Madison has referring mostly to the 15 centuries of Vatican rule (or shall we also toss in the rule of Islam, Heathens, Atheists, Huns, and Vikings during those 15 centuries?) Once again, you have no basis to claim Madison was singling out Catholicism. Legal Christianity in Rome didn't begin until 325AD, right? So he clearly was referring to the nearly 15 centuries between 325AD and 1785. And from that same link you so proudly hold up as Madison's definitive opinion of Christianity, from 1785, in Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, the very same James Madison wrote: Let me correct your error. I did not say Madison held that view of Christianity and you should not make that claim. He was speaking of legal Christianity, ie the corruption of both religion and government when the two were mixed. Nothing about that was an argument against Christian principles or Christian morality (or Jewish, for that matter )in government. It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe. "We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." Link? I want a source for that quote.
In the interest of the truth, I've researched the source (as have obviously you) and found the original quote of Madison's (author David Barton) to be wishful thinking and NOT true. You say they wanted religious governance, then you say they could have had it if they wanted it. Did they or didn't they? I'm saying that IF the Christian-signers majority had wanted a Christian governance instead of a secular one, they would have steamrolled a Christian version through. However they clearly envisioned and anticipated problems with it, as the Church of England (Espiscopalian sect) was already extracting taxes to subsidize that specific church. This became the basis of Madison's clever, well crafted (if not somewhat hysterical) opposition piece, 'In Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments', which tactically noted Virgina's mandatory tax to subsidize the Christian Epicopalian sect and church teachings but NOT any others. Madison was not anti-Christian nor did I claim he was. He said Christianity had its greatest luster before it got mixed with government. It's a very simple point, he did not want the two to mix. In my opinion, Madison in making his case for 'In Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments' exaggerated the extent and breadth of "Christianity's" blight upon humanity. He stressed all the bad, and ignored all of the good. If we are to take Madison's version of history to heart, there were 15 straight Muslim-esuque centuries of dripping blood at the jihadist hands of "Christianity," which is simply not true, but in the interest of making his point as a lawyer, it served his case. Let me correct your error. I did not say Madison held that view of Christianity and you should not make that claim. He was speaking of legal Christianity, ie the corruption of both religion and government when the two were mixed. Well sure -- "legal" in the context that Catholic Popes via Vatican were the final word in law for centuries in Europe, as well as eventually Church of England holding sway, along with the authority of Kings. In world history, either secular humanism OR religion have been the two sources of governmental "authority." That said, both Jefferson and Madison conspired to quell any "religious" influence in America, with Madison exploiting his 'In Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments' treatise, as well Jefferson's well-known "seperation," and venom targeted at the Bible. The more one reads, the more one comes to the conclusion that these two are most responsible for the current anti-Christian, anti-Constitution, pro-secular humanist religion that has ironically "mixed with government." It's no secret why liberals and hard-core libertarians have made Jefferson and Madisons their heroes.
"It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe." ~ James Madison In the interest of the truth, I've researched the source (as have obviously you) and found the original quote of Madison's (author David Barton) to be wishful thinking and NOT true. You say they wanted religious governance, then you say they could have had it if they wanted it. Did they or didn't they? Seems the controversy stems from late 20th-early 21st century books using secondary sources in books and webpages. The challenge from the secular left is usually 'show us the original.' We know a lot of these original letters are not preserved, so we have to rely on early historian's accounts. Wall Builders did a good piece on this showing what can be confirmed by primary source vs. secondary sources. So the notion is if you don't have a primary source, the quote is unconfirmed. The same standard should apply to both sides. Below may be something to tell us about Madison. Madison seems to have a reserved approach to religion and government. He does not, however, downplay the important role of faith and religion as a foundation of society. Here is a letter from Madison to Frederick Beasley: I have duly recd the copy of your little tract on the proofs of the Being & Attributes of God. To do full justice to it, would require not only a more critical attention than I have been able to bestow on it, but a resort to the celebrated work of Dr. Clarke, which I read fifty years ago only, and to that of Dr. Waterland also which I never read. The reasoning that could satisfy such a mind as that of Clarke, ought certainly not to be slighted in the discussion. And the belief in a God All Powerful wise & good, is so essential to the moral order of the World & to the happiness of man, that arguments which enforce it cannot be drawn from too many sources nor adapted with too much solicitude to the different characters & capacities to be impressed with it. The belief in a God All Powerful wise & good, is so essential to the moral order of the World & to the happiness of man, that arguments which enforce it cannot be drawn from too many sources. But whatever effect may be produced on some minds by the more abstract train of ideas which you so strongly support, it will probably always be found that the course of reasoning from the effect to the cause, "from Nature to Nature's God," Will be the more universal & more persuasive application. The finiteness of the human understanding betrays itself on all subjects, but more especially when it contemplates such as involve infinity. What may safely be said seems to be, that the infinity of time & space forces itself on our conception, a limitation of either being inconceivable; that the mind prefers at once the idea of a self-existing cause to that of an infinite series of cause & effect, which augments, instead of avoiding the difficulty; and that it finds more facility in assenting to the self-existence of an invisible cause possessing infinite power, wisdom & goodness, than to the self-existence of the universe, visibly destitute of those attributes, and which may be the effect of them. In this comparative facility of conception & belief, all philosophical Reasoning on the subject must perhaps terminate. But that I may not get farther beyond my depth, and without the resources which bear you up in fathoming efforts, I hasten to thank you for the favour which has made me your debtor, and to assure you of my esteem & my respectful regards. http://www.beliefnet.com/resourcelib/docs/8/Letter_from_James_Madison_to_Frederi ck_Beasley_1.html "For holy Scripture establishes a rule to our teaching, that we dare not “be wiser than we ought;” but be wise, as he himself says, “unto soberness, according as unto each God hath allotted the measure of faith." (Augustine of Hippo (354–430)
Sorry meant to ping you gentlemen as well.
"For holy Scripture establishes a rule to our teaching, that we dare not “be wiser than we ought;” but be wise, as he himself says, “unto soberness, according as unto each God hath allotted the measure of faith." (Augustine of Hippo (354–430)
Read it, weep, and blow it out yer fallible and uninspired arse, liberator.
Did you even read Gary's post? Jefferson's libertarian "Grand Experiment" was an epic fail. Why? Because the special 14 students chosen at his own college were by design left to their own devices, devoid of Christian ethics, morals, disciple and virtue. “Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence and father of the University of Virginia.” If you'd read any of the material upthread, you'd have realized that although Jefferson was the main contributor of the DoI, the final draft had to be edited and re-edited by Franklin and Livingstone before it was sufficiently presentable for what were 52 of 56 Christian signers of this now defunct, subverted, obsolete document. Look -- if you're happy that Tommy J's headstone inscription made an old man happy before Judgement Day, who am I to judge? :-/
Who is that, swearing his ETERNAL HOSTILITY to every form of tyranny over the mind of man? Odd the Architects chose to thus memorialize a mere "secretary", and the ideas they chose him to represent - Ehh Comrade Collectivist "liberator"?
"Jefferson was the main contributor of the DoI" Jefferson was playing stenographer for Sherman, Livingstone, and Franklin
What does Graham have to say about the fact that the KGB began as the Secret Police of the Russian Orthodox State-establishment? www.google.com/#q=oprichn...gb+secret+police+orthodox Meanwhile, Christ was anti-RELIGION -- especially the state-established kind.
Who are you? Bill O'Reilly:)
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
I think Jefferson saw himself as a liberated American infidel and why the words "AND INFIDEL OF EVERY DENOMINATION" were deliberately chosen in his explanation of the wording of the Virginia Act. And the Truth Shall Make You Free.
Maybe... Full Definition of INFIDEL Kind of odd wording any way you slice it -- even if it doesn't have quite the same connotation as today. With enough smoke and mirrors and sufficient ambiguity and subterfuge, wordsmen like TJ and Madison pulled it off.
He does not, however, downplay the important role of faith and religion as a foundation of society. A *very* reserved approach indeed. Madison didn't downplay faith and religion nearly as much as he repeated the same phrases for complimentary effect (IMO.) The rest of the letter seems to be a mugging of Beasley with fists of words and abstract thought. (Is everyone sure they were friends, lol?) Couldn't he have been more clear and concise and condensed his opinion into two sorter sentences (IF Madison wanted to be clear - and he didn't.) "Infinity" seems to be his nemesis ;-) William F. Buckeley: HUH??
"the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and infidel of every denomination." It's not odd at all.
It is clear from the Declaration that Jefferson did not envision the separation of God from government.
#115. To: GarySpFC (#112)
(Edited)
In the Roman manner.
In the Egyptian manner.
In the Babylonian manner.
In the Akkadian manner.
...
In the Ba'al, state-worshiping, manner.
#116. To: All (#113)
(Edited)
""All men are created equal; they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights; among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. This immortal statement was made in the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America in 1776."
--Ho Chi Minh, Circa 1945
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro...ratic_Republic_of_Vietnam
#117. To: VxH (#116)
#118. To: VxH (#72)
Super Parrot
#119. To: VxH (#115)
#120. To: VxH (#110)
(Edited)
""All men are created equal; they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights; among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. This immortal statement was made in the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America in 1776." --Ho Chi Minh, Circa 1945 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro...ratic_Republic_of_Vietnam
#121. To: VxH (#115)
#122. To: GarySpFC, VxH, redleghunter (#120)
VxH:
"Thomas Jefferson, who drafted that 'immortal statement' -- wasn't deemed worthy by the religiously petrified idiots on the Texas school board of being included in the list of Revolution inspiring Philosophical thinkers."
#123. To: VxH (#70)
Is Islamic Sharia law an ERROR that requires CONTRADICTING?
#124. To: VxH, Liberator, Redleghunter, ALL (#116)
#125. To: VxH (#72)
IOW, Jefferson was a secretary for Franklin,
#126. To: GarySpFC, VxH, Redleghunter, ALL (#124)
The old man’s experiment had failed. Why? Because he took for granted the one essential ingredient necessary for success: virtue. Only a virtuous people can secure and maintain their freedom.
#127. To: VxH (#74)
If there's any "bile" it's probably just the ooze that's seeping into your tiny little religiously petrified brain at the thought of what "Fallible and Uninspired" means when you look in the mirror.
#128. To: BorisY (#84)
#129. To: VxH, BorisY (#92)
Don't make me get out the cattle prod again little man.
#130. To: VxH (#3)
#131. To: redleghunter, GarySpFc, CZ82, VxH (#93)
What does this mean?
#132. To: kenh (#130)
During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.
#133. To: Liberator (#132)
#134. To: Liberator (#122)
Get over your fetish for the confused Deist Jefferson, your hostility toward 'The Focus on the Family' and the newly minted, sane conservative Texas School board. Time to infuse the young pods with the truth.
#135. To: Liberator (#132)
Madison is obviously referring to the fifteen centuries Holy Roman Catholic Church rule.
#136. To: All (#135)
#137. To: GarySpFC, redleghunter, kenh, VxH (#133)
Don't forget thousands of Christian hospitals, orphanages, schools, and universties established throughout the world.
#138. To: kenh, GarySpFC, redleghunter, VxH (#135)
The almost fifteen centuries of legal Christianity Madison referred to is 325-1785, which is almost 15 centuries. He did not limit his remarks to Catholics, and I don't it's justified to read that into it.
"It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe.
“Believers who are in a state of grace, have need of the Word of God for their edification and building up therefore implies a possibility of falling. v. 32.
“I have sometimes thought there could be no stronger testimony in favor of Religion or against temporal Enjoyments even the most rational and manly than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent Advocates in the cause of Christ, & I wish you may give in your Evidence in this way. Such instances have seldom occurred, therefore they would be more striking and would be instead of a "Cloud of Witnesses."
#139. To: Liberator, GarySpFc (#137)
#140. To: redleghunter, GarySpFc (#139)
(Edited)
The founders and people of mid-late 18th century America were influenced by the First Great Awakening. They had a contempt for state sanctioned church affiliation. Virginia's history of rebelling against Church of England taxes and land rights rubbed the founders the wrong way.
#141. To: Liberator (#138)
#142. To: kenh, redleghunter, GarySpFc (#141)
Link? I want a source for that quote.
"It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe." ~ James Madison
#143. To: Liberator (#142)
Link? I want a source for that quote.
#144. To: kenh, GarySpFc (#143)
#145. To: GarySpFC, liberator (#124)
(Edited)
" “Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence and father of the University of Virginia.” "
#146. To: VxH, GarySpFC (#145)
Read it, weep, and blow it out yer fallible and uninspired arse, liberator.
#147. To: Liberator (#146)
(Edited)
#148. To: Liberator (#146)
http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=37828&Disp=146#C146
#149. To: redleghunter (#0)
(Edited)
"When the Berlin wall came down, everybody said: 'We won,'" Graham remembered. "And secularism came. And secularism and communism are the same thing. They're godless. They're antichrist."
#150. To: VxH (#148)
#151. To: Liberator (#131)
(Edited)
...is Jefferson an obsessed crusader, opining on a personal thesis regarding the threat of Christianity to the governance of the new republic? OR does he sincerely fear that the freedom of common man and governance will eventually be usurped by "religion," who he sees as vulnerable prey to the wiles of predator pastors and ministries?
#152. To: VxH (#151)
I think Jefferson saw himself as a liberated American infidel and why the words "AND INFIDEL OF EVERY DENOMINATION" were deliberately chosen in his explanation of the wording of the Virginia Act.
#153. To: redleghunter, kenh, GarySpFc (#143)
Madison seems to have a reserved approach to religion and government.
"The finiteness of the human understanding betrays itself on all subjects,but more especially when it contemplates such as involve infinity." "What may safely be said seems to be, that the infinity of time & space forces itself on our conception, a limitation of either being inconceivable; that the mind prefers at once the idea of a self-existing cause to that of an infinite series of cause & effect, which augments, instead of avoiding the difficulty; and that it finds more facility in assenting to the self-existence of an invisible cause possessing infinite power, wisdom & goodness, than to the self-existence of the universe, visibly destitute of those attributes, and which may be the effect of them. In this comparative facility of conception & belief, all philosophical Reasoning on the subject must perhaps terminate. But that I may not get farther beyond my depth, and without the resources which bear you up in fathoming efforts, I hasten to thank you for the favour which has made me your debtor, and to assure you of my esteem & my respectful regards.
#154. To: Liberator (#152)
Full Definition of INFIDEL
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