Only one or two examples please. I don't have all day, you know.

That will be my next 10, or 50, messages to you - as long as it takes, to put up all of the relevant verses.

Good grief, Vic. Restrain yourself :-/

BTW, you know there are several resurrections and judgments, right? (Hence, my reason for specific verses)

and repay every man according to his works.

Okay. The letters to the 7 Churches is simply that...Jesus talking to His church, His body of believers. Christ is talking about judging the works of CHRISTIANS only. This judgment will take place at the Bema Seat of Christ.

This judgment will take place somewhere between the rapture and 2nd Coming, and will judge the works and walk of every believer. It will determine rewards or loss of rewards.

No Lake of Fire or eternal damnation in this judgment.

Next case...

Rev. 21:1-8 Then I saw a new Heaven and a new earth, for the first Heaven and the first earth had disappeared and the sea was no more. I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, descending from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride dressed in beauty for her husband. Then I heard a great voice from the throne crying, "See! The home of God is with men, and he will live among them. They shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death shall be no more, and never again shall there be sorrow or crying or pain. For all those former things are past and gone."

Then he who is seated upon the throne said, "See, I am making all thing new!" And he added, "Write this down for my words are true and to be trusted!"

Then he said to me, "It is done! I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the thirsty water without price from the fountain of life. The victorious shall inherit these things, and I will be God to him and he will be son to me. But as for the cowards, the faithless and the corrupt, the murderers, the traffickers in sex and sorcery, the worshipers of idols and all liars - their inheritance is in the lake which burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

Rev. 22:12-16 "See, I come quickly! I carry my reward with me, and repay every man according to his works. I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the Beginning and the End. Happy are those who wash their robes, for they have the right to the tree of life and the freedom of the gates of the city. Shut out from the city shall be the depraved, the sorcerers, the impure, the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices a lie!

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to you with this testimony for the Churches. I am both the root and stock of David, and the bright star of the morning!"

So you took Rev. 1-3, Rev. 21:1-8 and Rev, 22:12-16, removed all the chapter and verse numbers, and ran them together...thanks alot.

Next time provide all the chapter/verse numbers!

Without chapter/verse I can't refer to specific verses, and people reading here will be confused, as well.

Give me a sec to sort out this mess you've made.

Rev. 21:1-8 Then I saw a new Heaven and a new earth, for the first Heaven and the first earth had disappeared and the sea was no more. I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, descending from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride dressed in beauty for her husband. Then I heard a great voice from the throne crying, "See! The home of God is with men, and he will live among them. They shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death shall be no more, and never again shall there be sorrow or crying or pain. For all those former things are past and gone."

Then he who is seated upon the throne said, "See, I am making all thing new!" And he added, "Write this down for my words are true and to be trusted!"

Then he said to me, "It is done! I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the thirsty water without price from the fountain of life. The victorious shall inherit these things, and I will be God to him and he will be son to me. But as for the cowards, the faithless and the corrupt, the murderers, the traffickers in sex and sorcery, the worshipers of idols and all liars - their inheritance is in the lake which burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

Rev. 22:12-16 "See, I come quickly! I carry my reward with me, and repay every man according to his works. I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the Beginning and the End. Happy are those who wash their robes, for they have the right to the tree of life and the freedom of the gates of the city. Shut out from the city shall be the depraved, the sorcerers, the impure, the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices a lie!

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to you with this testimony for the Churches. I am both the root and stock of David, and the bright star of the morning!"

Of the passages you have presented, Rev.21:1-8 is not actual judgment, but is referring BACK to judgments that have already taken place.

Rev.22:12-16 is an admonition to everyone: make sure you find yourself in the right judgment! There will be judgments for those who BY FAITH have washed their robes in the atoning blood of Christ...and the rest, who's (faithless) works will be insufficient to attain the right to the tree of life.

When you read "Then I saw a new Heaven and a new earth, for the first Heaven and the first earth had disappeared", this is obviously a future time BEYOND the Great Millennium (the 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth).

Primarily, Christ is referring back to the Bema Seat Judgment for BELIEVERS, and also the Great White Throne Judgment for UNBELIEVERS (Rev. 21:11-15).

Note: there are at least seven judgments that have taken place by the time you read Rev.21. Those judgements include the judgment of Christians who were martyred in the Tribulation, the Old Testament Saints, the Sheep/Goat judgment, Satan/fallen angel judgment, ect. I can point these judgments out to you with Scripture references but it gets a bit lengthy for this forum.

To reiterate, salvation is not by works, but by faith in Jesus Christ.

Note: there are at least seven judgments that have taken place by the time you read Rev.21. Those judgements include the judgment of Christians who were martyred in the Tribulation, the Old Testament Saints, the Sheep/Goat judgment, Satan/fallen angel judgment, ect. I can point these judgments out to you with Scripture references but it gets a bit lengthy for this forum.

By all means list them.

By all means list them.

For cryin' out loud...

Believers...the Bema Seat...their Christian life...2Cor.5:10

OT Saints...end of Trib...faith in coming messiah...Dan. 12:1-3

Martyred Trib saints...end of Trib...faith/works...Rev.20:4-6

Surviving Jews...end of Trib...faith in Christ...Ez20:34-38/Mt25:1-13

Surviving Gentiles...end of Trib...Sheep/goat...Joel3:1,2/Mt25:31-46

Satan/fallen angels...end of millennium...Jude6/2Pt2:4

All unsaved people...end of millennium...for rejection of God...Rev20:11-15

(This is a very simplified list of the various judgments)

In all the judgments pertaining to humans, salvation is always by faith, not works done in unbelief

Edit: the question is, Vic, which judgement will you find yourself in?

Judgement of Believers...When: btween rapture and 2nd Coming...Basis: our Christian life...1Cor3:10/2Cor.5:10

Judgement of OT Saints...When: end of Trib...Basis: faith in coming messiah...Dan. 12:1-3

Judgement of Martyred Trib saints...When: end of Trib...Basis: faith proven by works...Rev.20:4-6

Judgement of Surviving Jews of Trib...When: end of Trib...Basis: faith in Christ...Ez20:34-38/Mt25:1-13

Judgement of Surviving Gentiles of Trib...When: end of Trib...Basis: Sheep-or-goat...Joel3:1,2/Mt25:31-46

Judgement of Satan/fallen angels...When: end of millennium...Basis: rebellion... Jude6/2Pt2:4

Judgement of All unsaved people...When: end of millennium...Basis: for rejection of God...Rev20:11-15

I will accept the words of Jesus as revealing what will happen, given his divinity. Jesus' revealed a much simpler structure of judgment and life after death than the complicated tarte-a-la-creme that you've presented.

Prove it with Jesus.

complicated tarte-a-la-creme

It's called Systematic Theology, freshman level.

Jesus' revealed a much simpler structure of judgment and life after death

Perhaps you'd like to present Jesus' version, clearly, concisely using verses with chapter and number this time;)

And a slice of Tart Tatin a la creme if you please.

Perhaps you'd like to present Jesus' version, clearly, concisely using verses with chapter and number this time;)

He can't do that. He thinks Jesus was a liar when he said all scripture was....

Vic is also a pretender. He pretends he only believes the red writing and asks you to only use red words. Then he believes this catholic cult made up purgatory and is quite domatic about it. Yet Jesus never said that in red. Or any other part of the Bible for that matter. I think Vic basically has a good heart (if I ignore his calling for the murder of all right wingers to solve the worlds problems) but he gets things mostly wrong.

Don’t kill is an absolute, except for self defense (in which case it’s enforcing don’t kill on the would- be killers. All of those other cases under the Jewish law are specific exceptions for Israel, for God ruled Israel directly.

Surely you must realize that is laughable. "It's only okay to kill if God commands us directly to do so."

I think you like and prefer the no-killing thing. I don't disagree with you or your right to agitate for any and all means of reducing the rates of killing. What I object to is people insisting that mankind is forbidden to kill by the bible.

It really is so much nicer to take a position philosophically or on religious grounds and then insist that your position is the Bible's position. That way, you get the moral high ground and your opponents get assigned the status of being either ignorant or evil or both. So it is satisfying.

How did Jesus react to violence and the means of self-defense? I think, for your argument to be valid, then it would have to come from the lips of Jesus. In red letters!

What did Jesus say about self defense?

From the last supper: And he said to them, “When I sent you out with no moneybag or knapsack or sandals, did you lack anything?” They said, “Nothing.” He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is written about me has its fulfillment.” And they said, “Look, Lord, here are two swords!” And he said to them, “Enough!”

So, then, Jesus authorized them to buy weapons to defend themselves. And when they got excited about that, he cut them off brusquely with a "That's enough!" Yes, you need to defend yourself, with weapons, no, you are not to be thrilled or excited by that. It's an unfortunate necessity, not a thing to be delighted in.

And no, Jesus NEVER authorized the apostles, or the Church, to use violence to enforce their opinions. And he did not authorize anybody to go out and conquer other people because they wanted to. The only active conquest he ever authorized was the invasion of Canaan by the Israelites. He did not authorize or justify, but he used the conquest of Israel by the Assyrians, the conquest of Judah by the Babylonians, the conquest of Babylon by the Persians, and the destruction of the Temple by the Romans, to punish disobedience, and to sweep away the religion of the Temple.

Yes, God authorizes you to defend yourself. No, you are not to exult in it, to boast of violent power, or delight in the tools or exercise of violence. And no, you are never authorized to use violence to enforce your will. Never. Only to defend yourself and others. (And then only justly.)

You're not authorized to kill witches. You're not authorized to kill heretics. You're not authorized to stone adulteresses or burn sodomites. And no, you're not authorized to engage in wars of conquest because you want territory.

Of course, you CAN exult in arms, and go kill people to take their lands and resources, or to silence their heresy or remove their political resistance. And when you do, you are simply a murderer and will be thrown into the Lake of Fire at final judgment, whether you call yourself a "Christian" or not.

For "What good does it do you to say you follow me if you don't keep my commandments."

Laugh at it if you want to, that is the law of Jesus on the matter. If you think otherwise, you're simply not following Jesus. You can laugh at me all you would like on the matter. When you do, you're laughing at what Jesus said.

I listen to him. You guys go ahead and listen to "Him PLUS"...which always ends up being "minus him" at the end, because the Plusses always end up authorizing you to do something Jesus said "no" to, or letting you think that faith requires mere thought, as opposed to action.

One thing that talking to self-professed "Christians" over time has taught me, is that Christianity is an aggressive religion full of proud and insulting people. I'll stick with Jesus alone, you can keep your "Christianity".

Since I have no means of persuading you, and I have no means of enforcement (and such means are very limited, by God), I've learned the meaning and wisdom of what the angel conveyed when he said "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still."

I live and let live. You do you. I'll do me. We'll all see in the end.

"Le vrai honnete homme ne se pique de rien." - La Rochefoucauld

He pretends he only believes the red writing

Agreed.

I think Vic basically has a good heart

I pity him. His heart is hardened toward God, refusing to hear the "whole counsel of God".

Judgement of OT Saints...When: end of Trib...Basis: faith in coming messiah...Dan. 12:1-3 - THE LENGTHY PASSAGES AROUND THIS APPEAR TO REFER TO THE PERSIANS, ALEXANDER THE GREAT AND HIS SUCCESSORS, THE MACCABEEAN REVOLT AND, FINALLY, THE COMING OF JESUS. THE EVERLASTING LIFE SPOKEN OF THERE IS WHAT JESUS BRINGS. THERE IS NOTHING IN THOSE PASSAGES THAT SPEAKS OF "THE MESSIAH". NOTE THAT "THE HOLY PEOPLE" ARE FINALLY BROKEN IN THESE PASSAGES. THIS COULD FORETELL THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE AND THE END OF THE PRIESTHOOD.

Judgement of Martyred Trib saints...When: end of Trib...Basis: faith proven by works...Rev.20:4-6 - THIS IS PERTINENT

Judgement of Surviving Jews of Trib...When: end of Trib...Basis: faith in Christ...Ez20:34-38/Mt25:1-13

Judgement of Surviving Gentiles of Trib...When: end of Trib...Basis: Sheep- or-goat...Joel3:1,2/Mt25:31-46 AND BASIS OF BEING A SHEEP OR A GOAT IS WHETHER OR NOT ONE HELPED THE POOR< THE SICK, THE PRISONER, THE NAKED. DON'T HELP THE POOR - A WORK - AND BURN IN THE FIRE. EVEN IF YOU PROFESS JESUS AS LORD. THE WORK IS WHAT MATTERS HERE. WHAT MAKES THEM RIGHTEOUS IS WHAT THEY DID. WHAT MAKES THEM UNRIGHTEOUS IS WHAT THEY FAILED TO DO. DEEDS, NOT BELIEFS. THERE IS NO "SURVIVING OF TRIBULATION" IN THIS PASSAGE

Judgement of Satan/fallen angels...When: end of millennium...Basis: rebellion... Jude6/2Pt2:4 - FINE, BUT NOT RELEVANT TO PEOPLE.

Judgement of All unsaved people...When: end of millennium...Basis: for rejection of God...Rev20:11-15

I pity him. His heart is hardened toward God, refusing to hear the "whole counsel of God".

You're not God.

We're done.

Judgement of Believers...When: btween rapture and 2nd Coming...Basis: our Christian life...1Cor3:10/2Cor.5:10 - WHERE IS JESUS?

Are you kidding? This judgement is at the Bema Seat, Judgment Seat of Christ. Christ is the Judge here!

Judgement of OT Saints...When: end of Trib...Basis: faith in coming messiah...Dan. 12:1-3 - THE LENGTHY PASSAGES AROUND THIS APPEAR TO REFER TO THE PERSIANS,

Nope. This passage is understood by the phrase "at that time" which theologians have determined to be the time of the tribulation/2nd coming. The OT saints have to be judged before entering into the millennium period. Remember this truth. Everyone is saved by faith in Christ. The OT believers were saved by LOOKING AHEAD to the promised Messiah. We NT believers are saved by faith by LOOKING BACK at Him. Daniel is speaking to the Jews, telling them (v.2) that their judgement will come "at that time".

Judgement of Martyred Trib saints...When: end of Trib...Basis: faith proven by works...Rev.20:4-6 - THIS IS PERTINENT

Yes. Once the church age has ended and the tribulation has begun, salvation will not be so easy. To become a believer during the tribulation will probably result in your being beheaded, hence the verses from Rev. 20.

Judgement of Surviving Gentiles of Trib...When: end of Trib...Basis: Sheep- or-goat...Joel3:1,2/Mt25:31-46...THERE IS NO "SURVIVING OF TRIBULATION" IN THIS PASSAGE

There will be surviving Christians (not many) and non-believers coming out of the Great Tribulation. Since they weren't beheaded (proving their faith) they are going to be judged by how they conducted themselves during the trib. The non-believers who survived will be the goats.

Judgement of Satan/fallen angels...When: end of millennium...Basis: rebellion... Jude6/2Pt2:4 - FINE, BUT NOT RELEVANT TO PEOPLE.

It is relevant. I want to see Satan and his cohorts dealt with. As do many, many other people who are aware of his evil. This judgement is as vital as all the other judgements.

Vic, thank you for looking at my list! I appreciate your comments. I hope I helped clear up some of the difficulties you have with them. There is alot going on here to keep track of, but a simple list like this helps present a framework to keep it all together.

We're done.

Drama much?

Drama much?

No drama. Rather, the desire to avoid a very harsh exchange.

Of course, you CAN exult in arms, and go kill people to take their lands and resources, or to silence their heresy or remove their political resistance. And when you do, you are simply a murderer and will be thrown into the Lake of Fire at final judgment, whether you call yourself a "Christian" or not.

Under your beliefs. Can you repent and be saved after murdering someone in a premeditated fashion?

You're not God.

We're done.

Jesus said all the scriptures were to be studied.

Don't get mad at someone because you don't like the truth. I mean someone who said they wanted to murder all right wingers shouldn't be upset when someone says that their heart is hardened.

No drama. Rather, the desire to avoid a very harsh exchange.

Sometimes you have to be harsh to get at the truth.

Don't get mad at someone because you don't like the truth.

THAT.

IRONY.

One thing that talking to self-professed "Christians" over time has taught me, is that Christianity is an aggressive religion full of proud and insulting people. I'll stick with Jesus alone, you can keep your "Christianity".

You're right on most of your points here, Vic.

We may not agree exactly on faith, but Christians are supposed to instruct gently with kindness and respect.

I would ask -- are those who are trying to "save" your soul doing so more out of real love and concern? Or, as a matter of personal pride and one-upsmanship? (We've all been there.)

No drama. Rather, the desire to avoid a very harsh exchange.

There is no irony. Your flat earth bullshit isn't biblical or scientific. It is for gullible people.

You ignore God's own word and truth. Because of PRIDE.

I would ask -- are those who are trying to "save" your soul doing so more out of real love and concern? Or, as a matter of personal pride and one-upsmanship? (We've all been there.)

Just routine stuff for me. I care about Vic's soul. I understand the coming judgments and I understand what's at stake. Eternity hangs in the balance.

Christianity is an aggressive religion full of proud and insulting people

Not true at all. But like Stone said, truth is harsh. That's why the Bible says Jesus came into this world full of grace and truth...grace is needed in the presence of the harsh truth. God supplies both and notice the order...grace then truth. God is good.

Your flat earth bullshit isn't biblical or scientific.

It is BOTH.

And until you let go of the unscientific, un-biblical LIES and BS that this lying secular-based world have foisted upon you, you remain their slave.

TO WIT:

This same "Science" that you trust confirms and teaches "Evolution" -- do you believe that? That means, This same "Science" that you trust confirms and teaches the 'Big Bang' and a gazillion year old Universe -- do you believe that?

If so, you, Bill Nye, De Grasse Tyson, and the rest of the militant anti-God atheists believe THE SAME EXACT THING.

Meanwhile, the Bible sez God's earthly realm is surrounded by a Firmament, "The waters ABOVE (above the highest sky) divided by the waters BELOW" (the oceans). There IS no "Outer Space." NASA = LIES. More than that -- IT MOCKS US.

God also NEVER once spoke of a "Globe or ball" earth. God spoke of a "face" of the earth. Btw, look up, 'Michelson-Morley experiment. It proved the earth does NOT spin; That we are indeed NOT spinning/moving. AT ALL.

That said...

At the same time as Christians, we must be careful and be reminded to heed Jesus' own countenance and gentle rebuke in sharing the word and truth without pride or arrogance. I have been guilty of this as well.

I would ask -- are those who are trying to "save" your soul doing so more out of real love and concern? Or, as a matter of personal pride and one-upsmanship? (We've all been there.)

I'm not going to judge them, but leave them be. They've said what they believe. I understand it. I don't agree with them on many points. I've said what I believe. THey don't agree with me on many points. Nothing is served by beating it into the ground again.

As far as evolution goes, God made the land and the sky and filled them with living things. Evolution is probably how he did it. Nothing more needs to be said on that front either. Some agree, some disagree. They all have their reasons.

They've said what they believe. I understand it. I don't agree with them on many points. I've said what I believe. THey don't agree with me on many points. Nothing is served by beating it into the ground again.

Well stated.

We've got to be able to debate issues (as a forum) without insults and calling people "stupid" (even though we may believe that to be the case ;-)

As far as evolution goes, God made the land and the sky and filled them with living things. Evolution is probably how he did it. Nothing more needs to be said on that front either. Some agree, some disagree. They all have their reasons.

When you say, that God "probably" used "Evolution." on what evidence do you base your theory?

Why should this matter?

Because there can be only one truth. "Creationism" (like Plane/Flat Earth) speaks to the absolute fidelity and literal truth of God and His word with respect to His Creation.

Moreover Vic -- if there were indeed a pre-Adam man as well as "Dinosaurs" who lived 65 mil years ago AND "death" of all life before the fall of Adam & Eve, doesn't it dispel the entire account of God in the 6-Day Creation, including Adam and Eve out of the dust in the first place? Doesn't it also dispel the Genesis account that the Death of all subsequent life based on the fallen Adam & Eve and reason for a "second Adam" -- Jesus Christ -- no longer applies?

heed Jesus' own countenance and gentle rebuke in sharing the word and truth

You don't know Jesus very well...

Understand, there are two sides to wrangling with Vic...one is contending for his soul...the other is rebuking (often sharply) his false teaching.

You require a similar rebuke for your nonsense.

You don't know Jesus very well...

...You require a similar rebuke for your nonsense.

STOP right there before you say something ignorant.

WAIT...

(too late)

Did I ever ask you how and when you became a Christian?

...and yes, you have asked.

Genesis is a poetic account of the filling of the land and the sky by God. It's not an actual scientific record.

It's important to understand that, because it demonstrates that the Bible cannot always be taken literally.

God, speaking from the sky, said of Jesus "This is my beloved son, listen to HIM." That's what I do - I listen to HIM. And given that I see contradictions between what HE said, and what Paul, James and John said; and also what the various Churches have taught, I have to decide whether I am going to try to blend what others have said with what HE said, and thereby dilute what he said, or if I'm going to take him straight and, therefore, diminish the others.

I choose the latter, for two reasons: (1) The actual examinable miracles left behind by Jesus over the ages are all about HIM, and (2) I know independently that God exists through miracle and communication.

Take (2) out, and I would be less tenacious about sticking to Jesus.

In any case, if somebody wants to talk to be about Christianity and persuade me of anything, he's going to have to do so through Jesus - and not try to cherry pick Jesus because I am very, very, very well versed in exactly what HE said. I'm not going to accept the authority of the Churches - they killed people, and thereby knocked out any claim to superior authority that I am going to admit into MY courtroom - they lost whatever authority they had by producing bloody fruit. And they're going to have to stop trying to pound Paul, John, James, Moses, etc. as the equals of Jesus. They're not. God said "Listen to HIM" and HE is Jesus.

My knowledge of what God wants, from the Bible, is built on the words of Jesus alone. That's the way it is, and that is how to approach me. I'm willing to pleasantly discuss why.

But the other thing one must not do is directly insult me in any way. I never start that sort of crap, not ever, and once it is introduced into my courtroom I gavel the person who insults me out of court for contempt. I never start that sort of thing, and once it appears, I shut the door.

So, the door is shut here, again. When Christians insult me, they demonstrate to me why their religion is dwindling so rapidly today. Lots of bad fruit there. No thanks.

I did try. But if people who come into my parlor to chat have to insult me, the conversation is over. Take your rotten fruit and false religions and get out.

Under your beliefs. Can you repent and be saved after murdering someone in a premeditated fashion?

You mean, someone like Paul?

Sure.

There were dinosaurs. We have the bones.

Agreed.

But what it doesn't do is "prove" old age. Moreover, God did not create a "riddle" to purposely "fool" the same secular scientists who claim "Old Earth." This is *their* response in attempting to discredit an "Young Earth Creation."

There was death before Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. Animals and humans ate plants. Eating plants kills them.

No "death" before Adam and Eve's fall. Not according to Scripture.

Isn't it technically true that edible plants and their fruit and leaves could still be eaten without the plant's death?

Genesis is a poetic account of the filling of the land and the sky by God. It's not an actual scientific record.

That's one perspective. We need to be careful when defining "Science" -- especially in giving "Science" more authority on nature than it deserves or warrants.

FWIW, God's "poetry" is found more in Psalms and Song of Solomon. The Almighty was not speaking poetically when describing Genesis. NOR in Job. NOR in Isaiah.

What evidence or indicator leads you to believe Genesis is "poetry"?

Q: Why can't God's own account of Creation be literal truth? What would be the "proof" that dismisses its divine, literal account? What evidence dismisses the account of a 6-Day Creation? Is there any limitation to God?

God, speaking from the sky, said of Jesus "This is my beloved son, listen to HIM." That's what I do - I listen to HIM. And given that I see contradictions between what HE said, and what Paul, James and John said; and also what the various Churches have taught, I have to decide whether I am going to try to blend what others have said with what HE said, and thereby dilute what he said, or if I'm going to take him straight and, therefore, diminish the others.

Firstly, I don't doubt your personal faith in Jesus as Redeemer. Only you know your heart; Same of others.

I think we can agree on dismissing what man or "churches" claim is their unique version of "truth."

That said, there is still disagreement on the absolute authority and fidelity of Scripture as the inspired word of God through ALL of the Apostles -- including Saul/Paul, who did not walk this earth with Jesus. But then neither did Noah, Moses, Abraham, and Isaiah -- yet we still believe they spoke on behalf of God/Jesus.

Which "contradictions" do you see in the respective account of Paul, James and John?

In any case, if somebody wants to talk to be about Christianity and persuade me of anything, he's going to have to do so through Jesus - and not try to cherry pick Jesus because I am very, very, very well versed in exactly what HE said. I'm not going to accept the authority of the Churches - they killed people, and thereby knocked out any claim to superior authority that I am going to admit into MY courtroom - they lost whatever authority they had by producing bloody fruit. And they're going to have to stop trying to pound Paul, John, James, Moses, etc. as the equals of Jesus. They're not. God said "Listen to HIM" and HE is Jesus.

Well Vic -- you get an "AMEN, Brutha!" outta me on most of the above.

But when you reference "Churches," are you citing Papal authority and its abuse over the millennial? Who else specifically do you place on that list?

Beyond the teachings and Gospel of Jesus while his 33 years on this earth, He gave HIS divine power and authority onto His Apostles to carry out His same teachings and Gospel -- and then some. That is one primary reason Jesus chose/elected those Apostles for their mission. (For that matter, ALL of the Prophets -- including Moses -- spoke on behalf of The Lord as His Inspired Word.)

True, it does NOT mean nor was it ever intended that The Apostles were to be Jesus' "equal"; To my knowledge and from study of scripture, no one (or Apostle) has ever claimed that to be the case. BUT...they were entrusted, tasked AND chosen by Jesus Christ Himself to speak and testify ON BEHALF OF Him, ergo, God the Father. The weight that relationship between Jesus and His Apostles carries speaks for itself. It is documented.

To "shut the door" on and "slam the gavel" on the Divine Authority of the Apostles is to ignore the ongoing Authority, wisdom, and further teachings of Jesus Christ Himself. The "evidence" of their relationship and mission in spreading the Gospel is in plain sight and overwhelming.

What Jesus wants and commanded was for us to continue heeding the Word of His Apostles -- as they testify and speak of and for Him as the Inspired Word.

With respect to personal insults and disrespect by others, again, I share your frustration. It shouldn't be condoned. I do understand the frustration from them as well from a faith stand point...

I'd highly recommended NOT conflating or rejecting acceptance of any Truth simply because its presentation isn't acceptable or respectful. The stakes are high. That should be THE consideration.

Cells are alive. When you eat them, you kill them.

Are you a retard?

Genesis is a poetic account of the filling of the land and the sky by God. It's not an actual scientific record.

It's important to understand that, because it demonstrates that the Bible cannot always be taken literally.

No death before sin. You're an idiot. No quotes from scripture as usual for you. Just the ravings of delusional lunatic who thinks he was a mouse or a rat raised from the dead. Go seek out mental health help.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/a_to_z/delusional-disorder-a-to-z

They've said what they believe. I understand it. I don't agree with them on many points. I've said what I believe. THey don't agree with me on many points.

According to what you have said. The following is not Gods word according to you?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. (John 1:1–5)

Are you a retard?

No. Cells are alive. When you eat them, they die. Animals and men were killing plants long before the fall. Nor does Genesis prescribe foot for sea creatures at all. What were sharks and whales eating? Text doesn’t say. Whatever it was, they, and all other sea creatures, were killing their food all along.

You’re an idiot....ravings of a delusional lunatic...Get mental help.

Look what you have to put up with to even try to have a quiet, rational conversation with a Christian if he disagrees with you. That’s the fruit of their pens. They “rebuke” you - as though what they say is at all persuasive. They abuse you and hector you constantly. And then, in the old days before the Age of Reason and the Revolutions, they killed you quite horribly if you did not submit to their illogic and emotion. Deprived of the power to kill, they never developed the power to speak rationally. They reject science, because it requires a revision of their understanding of their book. Muslims behave the same way.

Why would anyone want to join a club of people who treat them like this.

Why would I? When I tell them about my own contacts and communications with God, they impugn my sanity?

These Christians are full of rage, hate and insult. I like God much better than I like them. He’s nothing like them, and he demonstrates what he means. So I’ll stick with him. Talking to Christians is too unpleasant to keep up.

Cells are alive. When you eat them, you kill them.

As usual, some good reading from Answers In Genesis.

A snippet from the article "Death Before Sin?"

The Bible is very clear about the nature of life. Life, according to the Bible, resides in the "soul," or the Hebrew word "nephesh." This might be equated roughly with the concept of consciousness. This quality is ascribed only to man and some animals, but never plants. The Bible is also very clear as to what happens to plants—"they wither and fade" (Isaiah 40:6-8; James 1:10) but plants never die. They have biological life, but not Biblical life. Men and animals could eat plant life without death, in Biblical terms, taking place.

Link to the article: https://www.icr.org/article/295/

Link to a longer article "'Life' According to the Bible": https://answersingenesis.org/origin-of-life/what-is-life/life-according-to-the-bible-and-the-scientific-evidence/

Look what you have to put up with to even try to have a quiet, rational conversation with a Christian if he disagrees with you.

Quit bastarding scripture and you wont get corrected.

In other words give up your fake christian Catholic beliefs that contradict what Jesus and the Bible says. Every word of the Bible that is.

It isn't hate it is disgust at someone perverting Gods word like you do regularly. You rip pages out of the Bible because you can't live up to them. Then you add to scripture by accepting the lies of sinner popes. Purgatory for example 1 of 10000 or so.

They reject science,

You reject science asshole.

You also reject the Gospel.

Tell us foolish one what science to we reject.