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Title: Tucker Investigates: What is destroying rural America?
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Dec 4, 2019
Author: Tucker Carlson
Post Date: 2019-12-04 13:22:21 by Anthem
Keywords: None
Views: 3800
Comments: 184

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#97. To: Judas Goat (#92)

[nc #91] Appeal Roe and Obergefell to the imaginary court of natural law.

[Judas Goat #91] The CDC provides a plethora of documentation establishing how UN-imaginary the court of Natural Law is.

By all means, take your case to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) and argue God's law in the imaginary CDC Ecclesiastical Court. Good luck and may ooga booga be with you.

Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Ed.

Natural law. This expression, "natural law,” or jus naturale, was largely used in the philosophical speculations of the Roman jurists of the Antonine age, and was intended to denote a system of rules and principles for the guidance of human conduct which, independently of enacted law or of the systems peculiar to any one people, might be discovered by the rational intelligence of man, and would be found to grow out of and conform to his nature, meaning by that word his whole mental, moral, and physical constitution. The point of departure for this conception was the Stoic doctrine of a life ordered "according to nature,” which in its turn rested upon the purely supposititious existence, in primitive times, of a "state of nature;” that is, a condition of society in which men universally were governed solely by a rational and consistent obedience to the needs, impulses, and promptings of their true nature, such nature being as yet undefaced by dishonesty, falsehood, or indulgence of the baser passions. In ethics, it consists in practical universal judgments which man himself elicits. These express necessary and obligatory rules of human conduct which have been established by the author of human nature as essential to the divine purposes in the universe and have been promulgated by God solely through human reason.

Constitutional Law, 6th Ed., Jerome A. Barron and C. Thomas Dienes, Black Letter Series, West Group, 2003, p. 165.

A. THE ORIGINAL CONSTITUTION

1. NATURAL RIGHTS

Despite some contrary judicial opinion in the early years of the Republic, the claim that there are extra-constitutional "natural rights" limiting governmental power has generally not been accepted by the courts. If the federal government exercises one of its delegated powers or the states exercise their reserved powers, some express or implied constitutional, statutory, or common law limitation must be found if the government action is to be successfully challenged.

nolu chan  posted on  2019-12-13   23:57:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: nolu chan (#97)

Despite some contrary judicial opinion in the early years of the Republic, the claim that there are extra-constitutional "natural rights" limiting governmental power has generally not been accepted by the courts.

That is because the courts have gone rouge.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Your post shows that originally they knew the truth before asshole liars came to power. Deceivers. Fakers. Murderers.

A K A Stone  posted on  2019-12-14   0:36:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: A K A Stone (#98)

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Your post shows that originally they knew the truth before asshole liars came to power.

Ah, yes. They knew the troof before asshole liars came to power, and they inserted a clause, (The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people) ensuring that Natural Law, God's Law, philosophical speculations of the Roman jurists of the Antonine age, was retained by the people.

Not to be mistaken, slaves were considered persons. Before the assholes and liars took over, the Framers found a unique way to refer to slaves while bestowing to representation in Congress based on an enumeration of persons (census) and "adding to the whole number of free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding indians not taxed, three fifths of all other persons." Slaves were that "three fifths of all other persons."

And before the asshole liars came to power, the Framers enshrined slaves with the rights of livestock and other property. All men were created equal, but only white people were accorded the right to naturalization. All men and women were equal, but only white, male landowners could vote. In adopting the Law of God into the American legal system, so said the Founders and Framers before the assholes took over.

About seventy-five years later, President Abe Lincoln went on a three-day drunk and passed out in his bed, his bed perhaps being the bed at the Soldier's Home cottage where President Lincoln frequently went to stay, to be joined in his bed by Captain David Derickson, but I digress. A cabinet member awakened Abe from his slumber and gave him the news. Lincoln jumped from his bed startled, and exclaimed, "I freed the who?"

nolu chan  posted on  2019-12-14   11:55:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: watchman (#96)

Today, grain prices went up 15% from my supplier.

WHOLESALE prices?????

Yikes!

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2019-12-16   22:21:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: nolu chan (#99)

troof

????

A K A Stone  posted on  2019-12-17   7:05:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: nolu chan (#99)

Ah, yes. They knew the troof before asshole liars came to power, and they inserted a clause, (The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people) ensuring that Natural Law, God's Law, philosophical speculations of the Roman jurists of the Antonine age, was retained by the people.

Not to be mistaken, slaves were considered persons. Before the assholes and liars took over, the Framers found a unique way to refer to slaves while bestowing to representation in Congress based on an enumeration of persons (census) and "adding to the whole number of free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding indians not taxed, three fifths of all other persons." Slaves were that "three fifths of all other persons."

And before the asshole liars came to power, the Framers enshrined slaves with the rights of livestock and other property. All men were created equal, but only white people were accorded the right to naturalization. All men and women were equal, but only white, male landowners could vote. In adopting the Law of God into the American legal system, so said the Founders and Framers before the assholes took over.

About seventy-five years later, President Abe Lincoln went on a three-day drunk and passed out in his bed, his bed perhaps being the bed at the Soldier's Home cottage where President Lincoln frequently went to stay, to be joined in his bed by Captain David Derickson, but I digress. A cabinet member awakened Abe from his slumber and gave him the news. Lincoln jumped from his bed startled, and exclaimed, "I freed the who?"

blah blah blah

The 9th amendment is real. It was voted on. It is part of the constitution.

Can you name some of the rights it protects? Or are you going to go off on a strange tangent again?

A K A Stone  posted on  2019-12-17   7:08:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: sneakypete (#100)

Yikes!

Your comment prompted me to investigate.

Grain prices went up 15%...but it was specific to this local mill...and specific to dairy grain...go figure.

Not the end of the world yet lol

watchman  posted on  2019-12-17   11:10:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: watchman (#103)

Grain prices went up 15%...but it was specific to this local mill...and specific to dairy grain...go figure.

Thanks.

I wonder why? Could it be the bank is trying to force them to sell so they can buy it at a bankruptcy sale?

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2019-12-17   18:43:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: sneakypete (#104)

I wonder why?

This mill is a big facility that sells custom blended grain in bulk to farmers.

But I noticed they were making improvements...adding a retail space.

Perhaps they're passing those costs on to me.

Thing is, I can buy Blue Seal Milk Maker at full retail (for 15% cheaper!) at the farm co-op.

To add insult to injury, the mill had to stop selling molasses from their bulk tank (because the FDA inspector decided it was unsanitary). I was only paying $1.80/gallon. The co-op wants $6/gallon for the same molasses!

Between the grain increase and the FDA...well, I'm stunned I tell ya

But that's okay, Pete, we'll just keep on milking!

watchman  posted on  2019-12-17   22:31:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: All (#0)

It appears that youtube has disabled the embed. The video is still there. www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdwH066g5lQ

Anthem  posted on  2019-12-17   23:24:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: Anthem (#106) (Edited)

It embeds fine. You have to wait for the ad to finish playing first. The embed wasn't present when ad was playing.

A K A Stone  posted on  2019-12-18   0:10:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: nolu chan (#99)

I appreciate what you've done on this thread. You'd be a fine lawyer in the legal realist tradition (where I also reside).

Vicomte13  posted on  2019-12-23   18:02:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: A K A Stone (#78)

That isn't a law it is an opinion.

Laws are passed by congress and signed by the president.

Thank you, A K A Stone! Finally, somebody's figured it out.

goldilucky  posted on  2019-12-23   18:12:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: Vicomte13 (#108)

Lets see how real you are. What does interstate commerce mean in the constitution?

Do you pretend like the Supreme court or are you REAL honest?

Will Vic go with color of law or real truth?

A K A Stone  posted on  2019-12-24   9:06:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: A K A Stone (#110)

Do you pretend like the Supreme court or are you REAL honest?

Well, let's see how honest you are.

The FAA regulates interstate flights. I'm sure you agree they have that power.

But they also regulate intrastate flights. According to you they don't have that power, correct?

So let's leave it up to the 50 individual states to do that. Hey, a few mid-air collisions are a small price to pay for honoring the "honest" meaning of the Commerce Clause.

misterwhite  posted on  2019-12-24   10:23:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: misterwhite (#111)

The FAA regulates interstate flights. I'm sure you agree they have that power.

But they also regulate intrastate flights. According to you they don't have that power, correct?

Never thought about it.

I'm talking about something else.

A K A Stone  posted on  2019-12-24   10:35:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: A K A Stone, Vicomte13 (#102)

The 9th amendment is real. It was voted on. It is part of the constitution.

Can you name some of the rights it protects?

No. The 9th Amendment states a rule of constitutional construction and does not, in itself, contain a guarantee of any right, or proscription of any infringement.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Can you name the rights protected by the 9th Amendment? Which ones does the 9th Amendment name?

It only protects against construing the constitution’s enumeration of some rights to attack or deny or disparage others because they are not enumerated. As the right to keep and bear arms is enumerated in the 2nd Amendment, the 9th Amendment has no application to it whatever. However, assuming arguendo the the RKBA were not enumerated, the 9th Amendment would not prohibit restrictions or regulations upon the RKBA.

If the RKBA were not enumerated, the 9th Amendment would prevent denying that right on the sole and exclusive basis that it was not enumerated. That is all.

As an historical note, I would observe that James Madison did NOT write the 2nd Amendment. Madison proposed a set of amendments on 8 June 1789. The introduction of the proposed amendments and the associated colloquy on that occasion are in The Annals of Congress I, at pp. 439-68.

Madison’s draft of what led to the 9th Amendment reads:

The exceptions here or elsewhere in the con­stitution, made in favor of particular rights, shall not be so construed as to diminish the just importance of other rights retained by the peo­ple, or as to enlarge the powers delegated by the constitution; but either as actual limitations of such powers, or as inserted merely for greater caution.

The assholes of 1789 put Madison’s wording through the congressional committee sausage making process to create the wording that was ultimately offered and ratified, as quoted above.

The purpose of the 9th Amendment was to gain approval for the Constitution as a whole, and the inclusion of a Bill of Rights in particular. Several of the eleven (11) states in the Union at that time were opposed to the enumeration of any rights, lest the enumerated rights be construed as a denial of those rights not so enumerated. Two states were opposed to the Constitution as it was framed and adopted, and had not joined the new Union.

As an historical note I reference the comments of James Madison and Roger Sherman upon the introduction of the proposed amendments.

[Madison, 8 Jun 1789] It cannot be a secret to the gentlemen in this House, that, notwithstanding the unification of this system of Government by eleven of the thirteen United States, in some cases unani­mously, in others by large majorities; yet still there is a great number of our constituents who are dissatisfied with it; among whom are many respectable for their talents and patriotism, and respectable for the jealousy they have for their liberty, which, though mistaken in its object, is laudable in its motive. There is a great body of the people falling under this description, who at present feel much inclined to join their sup­port to the cause of Federalism, if they were satisfied on this one point. We ought not to disregard their inclination, but, on principles of amity and moderation, conform to their wish­es, and expressly declare the great rights of mankind secured under this constitution. The acquiescence which our fellow-citizens show under the Government, calls upon us for a like return of moderation. But perhaps there is a stronger motive than this for our going into a consideration of the subject. It is to provide those securities for liberty which are required by a part of the community; I allude in a par­ticular manner to those two States that have not thought fit to throw themselves into the bosom of the Confederacy. It is a desirable thing, on our part as well as theirs that a re-union should take place as soon as possible. I have no doubt it we proceed to take those steps which would be prudent and requisite at this juncture, that in a short time we should see that disposition prevailing in those States which have not come in, that we have seen prevailing in those States which have embraced the con­stitution.

[...]

[Roger Sherman, 8 June 1789] I do not suppose the consti­tution to be perfect, nor do I imagine if Con­gress and all the Legislatures on the continent were to revise it, that their united labors would make it perfect. I do not expect any perfec­tion on this side the grave in the works of man; but my opinion is, that we are not at present in circumstances to make it better. It is a won­der that there has been such unanimity in adopting it, considering the ordeal it had to un­dergo; and the unanimity which prevailed at its formation is equally astonishing; amidst all the members from the twelve States present at the federal convention, there were only three who did not sign the instrument to attest their opinion of its goodness. Of the eleven States who have received it, the majority have ratified it without proposing a single amendment. This circumstance leads me to suppose that we shall not be able to propose any alterations that are likely to be adopted by nine States; and gentle­men know, before the alterations take effect, they must be agreed to by the Legislatures of three-fourths of the States in the Union.

The 9th Amendment was part of a sales pitch and looks like it says more than it does.

I have frequently made disparaging reference to penumbras formed by emanations from various rights. With the 9th Amendment, you stepped squarely into the penumbras and emanations divined by the U.S. Supreme Court in Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S. 479, 484 (1965).

The foregoing cases suggest that specific guarantees in the Bill of Rights have penumbras, formed by emanations from those guarantees that help give them life and substance. See Poe v. Ullman, 367 U. S. 497, 367 U. S. 516-522 (dissenting opinion). Various guarantees create zones of privacy. The right of association contained in the penumbra of the First Amendment is one, as we have seen. The Third Amendment, in its prohibition against the quartering of soldiers "in any house" in time of peace without the consent of the owner, is another facet of that privacy. The Fourth Amendment explicitly affirms the "right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures." The Fifth Amendment, in its Self-Incrimination Clause, enables the citizen to create a zone of privacy which government may not force him to surrender to his detriment. The Ninth Amendment provides: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

The Fourth and Fifth Amendments were described in Boyd v. United States, 116 U. S. 616, 116 U. S. 630, as protection against all governmental invasions "of the sanctity of a man's home and the privacies of life." * We recently referred

381 U. S. 485

in Mapp v. Ohio, 367 U. S. 643, 367 U. S. 656, to the Fourth Amendment as creating a "right to privacy, no less important than any other right carefully an particularly reserved to the people." See Beaney, The Constitutional Right to Privacy, 1962 Sup.Ct.Rev. 212; Griswold, The Right to be Let Alone, 55 Nw.U.L.Rev. 216 (1960).

We have had many controversies over these penumbral rights of "privacy and repose." See, e.g., Breard v. Alexandria, 341 U. S. 622, 341 U. S. 626, 341 U. S. 644; Public Utilities Comm'n v. Pollak, 343 U. S. 451; Monroe v. Pape, 365 U. S. 167; Lanza v. New York, 370 U. S. 139; Frank v. Maryland, 359 U. S. 360; Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U. S. 535, 316 U. S. 541. These cases bear witness that the right of privacy which presses for recognition here is a legitimate one.

The present case, then, concerns a relationship lying within the zone of privacy created by several fundamental constitutional guarantees.

While nobody can recite a list of rights guaranteed by the 9th Amendment, some may divine that such rights are found within a penumbra emanated by some fundamental constitutional guarantee within the Bill of Rights.

nolu chan  posted on  2019-12-24   20:19:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: nolu chan (#113)

No. The 9th Amendment states a rule of constitutional construction and does not, in itself, contain a guarantee of any right, or proscription of any infringement.

lol how cute. Words don't mean what they say.

A K A Stone  posted on  2019-12-25   8:56:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: A K A Stone (#114)

The 9th Amendment states a rule of constitutional construction and does not, in itself, contain a guarantee of any right, or proscription of any infringement.

lol how cute. Words don't mean what they say.

Au contraire, the words of the 9th Amendment mean exactly what they say, neither more, nor less.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

The subject of that sentence is enumeration. It is the enumeration that shall not be construed as stated.

The text of the Amendment quite clearly states a limit on the manner in which the enumeration of certain rights within the Constitution may be construed.

The Committee of Eleven did not strip out the meaningful portion of Madison’s proposed amendment via some unhappy accident. It was an intentional act that achieved a desired effect. It delayed ratification by more than two years, but the opposition eventually caved.

https://www.constitution.org/9ll/schol/kurt_lash_lost_9th.htm

Volume 83, Number 2, December 2004

Articles

The Lost Original Meaning of the Ninth Amendment

Kurt T. Lash*

This Article presents previously missed or unrecognized evidence regarding the original meaning of the Ninth Amendment. Obscured by the contemporary assumption that the Ninth Amendment is about rights while the Tenth Amendment is about powers, the historical roots of the Ninth Amendment can be found in the state ratification convention demands for a constitutional amendment prohibiting the constructive enlargement of federal power. James Madison's initial draft of the Ninth Amendment expressly adopted language suggested by the state conventions, and he insisted that the final draft expressed the same rule of construction desired by the states. The altered language of the final draft, however, prompted former Virginia Governor Edmund Randolph to halt his state's efforts to ratify the Bill of Rights due to his concern that the Ninth no longer reflected the demands of the state convention. Antifederalists used Randolph's concerns to delay Virginia's, and thus the country's, ratification of the Bill of Rights for two years. While ratification remained pending in Virginia, Madison delivered a major speech in the House of Representatives explaining that the origin and meaning of the Ninth Amendment in fact were rooted in the proposals of the state conventions and that the Ninth guarded against a "latitude of interpretation" to the injury of the states. Although the Ninth's rule of construction distinguishes it from the Tenth Amendment's declaration of principle, Madison and other legal writers at the time of the Founding viewed the Ninth and Tenth Amendments as twin guardians of our federalist structure of government. Over time, the Tenth Amendment also came to be understood as expressing a federalist rule of construction. The original federalist view of the Ninth Amendment, however, remained constant and was repeated by bench and bar for more than one hundred years.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/dec/12/james-madison-and-the-acrobatic-history-of-the-nin/

James Madison and the 'acrobatic history' of the Ninth Amendment

By Dr. Lynn Uzzell
Washington Times
Monday, December 12, 2016

The history of constitutional interpretation is notorious for its occasional contortions of speech and logic. But in the case of the Ninth Amendment, history has been truly acrobatic. Whereas the original purpose of this amendment was to guard against expansions of federal power, its recent interpretations have tended (you guessed it) to expand federal authority.

When the Constitution was first being debated during the Ratification period of 1787-88, many Antifederalists denounced the plan of government because it did not contain any bill of rights. Several Federalists, including James Madison, countered that a bill of rights was not only unnecessary in a constitution of limited powers, it was even “dangerous, because an enumeration which is not complete is not safe.”

The Federalists argued that any enumeration of rights would unavoidably imply powers that had never been granted. For instance, if the Framers were to add a provision declaring that Congress had no power to abridge the right of free speech, that prohibition would imply that Congress would have possessed that power without the prohibition. And the Framers did not wish to imply that Congress possessed any powers except the ones that had been enumerated.

When Madison wrote to Thomas Jefferson about the prospects of adding a bill of rights, he confessed: “My own opinion has always been in favor of a bill of rights, provided it be so framed as not to imply powers not meant to be included in the enumeration.”

And when proposing a bill of rights to the First Congress, Madison acknowledged that this fear — “that those rights which were not singled out” would be insecure by implication — was “one of the most plausible arguments I have ever heard urged against the admission of a bill of rights into this system.” But he assured Congress that his proposal for what would eventually become the Ninth Amendment should prevent any such misinterpretation of the Constitution.

Therefore, the Ninth Amendment (like the 10th Amendment) was always intended to be nothing more than a rule of construction: a guide for understanding how the Constitution was meant to be interpreted.

Madison’s initial proposal for the Ninth Amendment makes these intentions clear: “The exceptions here or elsewhere in the Constitution, made in favor of particular rights, shall not be so construed as to diminish the just importance of other rights retained by the people, or as to enlarge the powers delegated by the Constitution; but either as actual limitations of such powers, or as inserted merely for greater caution” (emphasis added).

However, Congress streamlined Madison’s wording by removing the clauses about the enlargement of federal powers.

Virginia delegate Edmund Randolph was incensed when saw the revised version, believing that Congress had removed the most important part of the amendment. Virginia’s objections to the final wording of the Ninth Amendment actually delayed that state’s ratification of all the amendments for two years, which delayed ratification of the entire Bill of Rights.

Madison was flummoxed trying to understand the basis of Virginia’s objections, because he believed that the protection of individual rights and the protection against expansions of federal powers were merely two sides of the same coin: “the distinction,” insofar as Madison could see it, was “altogether fanciful.”

Alas, among Madison’s most charming blind spots was this one: He earnestly believed that Americans could always be trusted to interpret the Constitution in accordance with its intended meaning.

Madison’s faith was proved disastrously misplaced with recent interpretations of the Ninth Amendment. In Griswold v. Connecticut (1965), Justice Arthur Goldberg wrote that “the right of privacy in the marital relation is fundamental and basic — a personal right ‘retained by the people’ within the meaning of the Ninth Amendment.” In other words, the Ninth Amendment was being used to grant the Court an authority to decide which rights (unnamed within the Bill of Rights) now deserved protection by the federal government. It was being used as an expansion of federal authority over state laws.

In his dissent, Justice Potter Stewart criticized the Court’s interpretation of this amendment: “to say that the Ninth Amendment has anything to do with this case is to turn somersaults with history.” Nevertheless, the Court’s reasoning in Griswold has turned somersaults in “privacy cases” ever since, including Roe v. Wade (1973). It has been a truly acrobatic history.

Lynn Uzzell, Ph.D., is a member of the James Madison Society at Princeton University and an adjunct professor of politics at the University of Virginia. She is currently working on an authoritative and impartial appraisal of Madison’s Notes of the Constitutional Convention.

https://www.archives.gov/files/legislative/resources/bill-of-rights/CCBR_IIB.pdf

A Project of the National Archives
Go Inside the First Congress
Amendments in Process
House Article the Fifteenth
Rights Retained by the People

At 148: Ideas Proposed in the State Ratifying Conventions

There are certain natural rights of which men, when they form a social compact cannot deprive or divest their posterity, among which are the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring, possessing and protecting property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.

Virginia Convention, June 27, 1789

That the Powers of Government may be reassumed by the People, whensoever it shall become necessary to their Happiness; that every Power, Jurisdiction and Right, which is not by the said Constitution clearly delegated to the Congress of the United States, or to the departments of the Government thereof, remains to the People of the several States or to their respective State Governments to whom they may have granted the same….

New York Convention, July 26, 1788

At 149: As Proposed by James Madison

James Madison proposed that the following language be inserted into Article I, Section 9, of the Constitution between Clauses 3 and 4:

The exceptions here or elsewhere in the Constitution, made in favor of particular rights, shall not be so construed as to diminish the just importance of other rights retained by the people, or as to enlarge the powers delegated by the Constitution; but either as actual limitations of such powers, or as inserted merely for greater caution.

June 8, 1789

This proposed amendment stated the principle that listing certain rights did not define the total body of rights possessed by the people. Additional rights of equal importance could be unlisted. nor did that listing mean that government could expand its powers.

At 150: As Proposed by the House Committee

Article I, Section 9—Between Clauses 2 and 3 insert:

The enumeration in this Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

July 28, 1789

The committee of eleven shortened Madison’s proposal and focused it on rights alone.

At 151: As passed by the House of Representatives

The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others, retained by the people.

August 24, 1789

The house passed this amendment essentially as proposed by the select committee.

At 152: As Approved or Amended by the Senate

The enumeration in the constitution of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others, retained by the people.

September 7, 1789

The senate adopted this amendment as passed by the house.

The next step occurs after more than a two year delay.

At 153: As Reported by the Conference Committee

The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

December 15, 1791

Passed by both bodies, the amendment was not discussed in the conference committee.

At 154: As sent to the States for Ratification

The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

October 2, 1789

The amendment was sent to the states for ratification in this form.

At 155:

The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

October 2, 1789

The amendment was sent to the states for ratification in this form.

- - - - - - - - - -

Hamilton, Federalist 78, “The interpretation of the laws is the proper and peculiar province of the courts.”

SCOTUS, Marbury v. Madison, “It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is.”

Randy Barnett, Our Republican Constitution, 1st Ed., Broadside Books, 2016, p. 172, “Then two more amendments were added to ensure the powers of the federal government were limited. The Ninth Amendment was supposed to ensure that the eight amendments protecting rights would not be construed as exclusive.”

Laurence Tribe, American Constitutional Law, 2nd Ed., The Foundation Press Inc., 1988, pp. 774-75, “James Madison introduced the ninth amendment in specific response to the arguments of Hamilton and others that enactment of a Bill of Rights might dangerously suggest “that those rights which were not singled out, were intended to be assigned into the hands of the General Government, and were consequently insecure.” The ninth amendment, which provides that “[t]he enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people,” therefore at least states a rule of construction pointing away from the reverse incorporation view that only the interests secured by the Bill of Rights are encompassed within the fourteenth amendment, and at most provides a positive source of law for fundamental but unmentioned rights.”

https://pacificlegal.org/whats-the-deal-with-the-9th-amendment/

Consequently, Madison’s original draft of the 9th Amendment read: “The exceptions, here or elsewhere in the Constitution, made in favor of particular rights, shall not be so construed as to diminish the just importance of other rights retained by the people, or as to enlarge the powers delegated by the Constitution; but either as actual limitations of such powers, or as inserted merely for greater caution.”

Unfortunately, a select committee removed the key portion of the proposed amendment—which would have prohibited the power of the federal government from being enlarged through interpretation—before the amendment was enacted. Thus, the entire purpose of the amendment (and its future applicability) was rendered moot.

The 9th Amendment was intended to provide a mode of interpretation for the Constitution, guaranteeing that federal courts would have been expressly forbidden from creating new governmental powers through clever interpretation. Given how much trouble varying interpretations of the Constitution have caused throughout American history, it’s a shame this principle was not explicitly included. A lot of subsequent and continuing constitutional mischief could have been avoided.

https://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1850&context=facpub

Texas Law Review Volume 85, Number 1, November 2006

The Ninth Amendment: It Means What It Says
Randy E. Barnett

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
—U.S. CONST., amend. IX

Although the Ninth Amendment appears on its face to protect unenumerated individual rights of the same sort as those that were enumerated in the Bill of Rights, courts and scholars have long deprived it of any relevance to constitutional adjudication.

U.S. Supreme Court in Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S. 479, 484 (1965).

The foregoing cases suggest that specific guarantees in the Bill of Rights have penumbras, formed by emanations from those guarantees that help give them life and substance. See Poe v. Ullman, 367 U. S. 497, 367 U. S. 516-522 (dissenting opinion). Various guarantees create zones of privacy. The right of association contained in the penumbra of the First Amendment is one, as we have seen. The Third Amendment, in its prohibition against the quartering of soldiers "in any house" in time of peace without the consent of the owner, is another facet of that privacy. The Fourth Amendment explicitly affirms the "right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures." The Fifth Amendment, in its Self-Incrimination Clause, enables the citizen to create a zone of privacy which government may not force him to surrender to his detriment. The Ninth Amendment provides: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

And from the Legal Information Institute (LII) at Cornell University:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/amendment-9

UNENUMERATED RIGHTS

NINTH AMENDMENT

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

RIGHTS RETAINED BY THE PEOPLE

The Federalists contended that a bill of rights was unnecessary. They responded to those opposing ratification of the Constitution because of the lack of a declaration of fundamental rights by arguing that, inasmuch as it would be impossible to list all rights, it would be dangerous to list some and thereby lend support to the argument that government was unrestrained as to those rights not listed.1 Madison adverted to this argument in presenting his proposed amendments to the House of Representatives. “It has been objected also against a bill of rights, that, by enumerating particular exceptions to the grant of power, it would disparage those rights which were not placed in that enumeration; and it might follow by implication, that those rights which were not singled out, were intended to be assigned into the hands of the General Government, and were consequently insecure. This is one of the most plausible arguments I have ever heard against the admission of a bill of rights into this system; but, I conceive, that it may be guarded against. I have attempted it, as gentlemen may see by turning to the last clause of the fourth resolution.”2 It is clear from its text and from Madison’s statement that the Amendment states but a rule of construction, making clear that a Bill of Rights might not by implication be taken to increase the powers of the national government in areas not enumerated, and that it does not contain within itself any guarantee of a right or a proscription of an infringement.3 In 1965, however, the Amendment was construed to be positive affirmation of the existence of rights which are not enumerated but which are nonetheless protected by other provisions.

The Ninth Amendment had been mentioned infrequently in decisions of the Supreme Court4 until it became the subject of some exegesis by several of the Justices in Griswold v. Connecticut.5 The Court in that case voided a statute prohibiting use of contraceptives as an infringement of the right of marital privacy. Justice Douglas, writing for the Court, asserted that the “specific guarantees in the Bill of Rights have penumbras, formed by emanations from those guarantees that help give them life and substance.”6 Thus, although privacy is not mentioned in the Constitution, it is one of the values served and protected by the First Amendment through its protection of associational rights, and by the Third, the Fourth, and the Fifth Amendments as well. The Justice recurred to the text of the Ninth Amendment, apparently to support the thought that these penumbral rights are protected by one Amendment or a complex of Amendments despite the absence of a specific reference. Justice Goldberg, concurring, devoted several pages to the Amendment.

“The language and history of the Ninth Amendment reveal that the Framers of the Constitution believed that there are additional fundamental rights, protected from governmental infringement, which exist alongside those fundamental rights specifically mentioned in the first eight constitutional amendments. . . . To hold that a right so basic and fundamental and so deep-rooted in our society as the right of privacy in marriage may be infringed because that right is not guaranteed in so many words by the first eight amendments to the Constitution is to ignore the Ninth Amendment and to give it no effect whatsoever. Moreover, a judicial construction that this fundamental right is not protected by the Constitution because it is not mentioned in explicit terms by one of the first eight amendments or elsewhere in the Constitution would violate the Ninth Amendment. . . . Nor do I mean to state that the Ninth Amendment constitutes an independent source of right protected from infringement by either the States or the Federal Government. Rather, the Ninth Amendment shows a belief of the Constitution’s authors that fundamental rights exist that are not expressly enumerated in the first eight amendments and an intent that the list of rights included there not be deemed exhaustive.”7

Therefore, although neither Douglas’ nor Goldberg’s opinion sought to make the Ninth Amendment a substantive source of constitutional guarantees, both read it as indicating a function of the courts to interpose a veto over legislative and executive efforts to abridge other fundamental rights. Both opinions seemed to concur that the fundamental right claimed and upheld was derivative of several express rights and, in this case, really, the Ninth Amendment added almost nothing to the argument. But, if there is a claim of a fundamental right that cannot reasonably be derived from one of the provisions of the Bill of Rights, even with the Ninth Amendment, how is the Court to determine, first, that it is fundamental, and second, that it is protected from abridgment?8

- - - - - - - - - -

Footnotes

1 THE FEDERALIST No. 84 (Modern Library ed. 1937).

2 1 ANNALS OF CONGRESS 439 (1789). Earlier, Madison had written to Jefferson: “My own opinion has always been in favor of a bill of rights; provided it be so framed as not to imply powers not meant to be included in the enumeration. . . . I have not viewed it in an important light—1. because I conceive that in a certain degree . . . the rights in question are reserved by the manner in which the federal powers are granted. 2. because there is great reason to fear that a positive declaration of some of the most essential rights could not be obtained in the requisite latitude. I am sure that the rights of conscience in particular, if submitted to public definition would be narrowed much more than they are likely ever to be by an assumed power.” 5 WRITINGS OF JAMES MADISON, 271–72 (G. Hunt ed., 1904). See also 3 J. STORY, COMMENTARIES ON THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES 1898 (1833).

3 To some extent, the Ninth and Tenth Amendments overlap with respect to the question of unenumerated powers, one of the two concerns expressed by Madison, more clearly in his letter to Jefferson but also in his introductory speech.

4 In United Public Workers v. Mitchell, 330 U.S. 75, 94–95 (1947), upholding the Hatch Act, the Court said: “We accept appellant’s contention that the nature of political rights reserved to the people by the Ninth and Tenth Amendments [is] involved. The right claimed as inviolate may be stated as the right of a citizen to act as a party official or worker to further his own political views. Thus we have a measure of interference by the Hatch Act and the Rules with what otherwise would be the freedom of the civil servant under the First, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments.” See Ashwander v. TVA, 297 U.S. 288, 300–11 (1936), and Tennessee Electric Power Co. v. TVA, 306 U.S. 118, 143–44 (1939). See also Justice Chase’s opinion in Calder v. Bull, 3 U.S. (3 Dall.) 386, 388 (1798), and Justice Miller for the Court in Loan Ass’n v. Topeka, 87 U.S. (20 Wall.) 655, 662–63 (1875).

5 381 U.S. 479 (1965).

6 381 U.S. at 484. The opinion was joined by Chief Justice Warren and by Justices Clark, Goldberg, and Brennan.

7 381 U.S. at 488, 491, 492. Chief Justice Warren and Justice Brennan joined this opinion. Justices Harlan and White concurred, id. at 499, 502, without alluding to the Ninth Amendment, but instead basing their conclusions on substantive due process, finding that the state statute “violates basic values implicit in the concept of ordered liberty” (citing Palko v. Connecticut, 302 U.S. 319, 325 (1937)). Id. at 500. It appears that the source of the fundamental rights to which Justices Douglas and Goldberg referred must be found in a concept of substantive due process, despite the former’s express rejection of this ground. Id. at 481–82. Justices Black and Stewart dissented. Justice Black viewed the Ninth Amendment ground as essentially a variation of the due process argument under which Justices claimed the right to void legislation as irrational, unreasonable, or offensive, without finding any violation of an express constitutional provision.

8 As Justice Scalia observed, “the [Ninth Amendment’s] refusal to ‘deny or disparage’ other rights is far removed from affirming any one of them, and even further removed from authorizing judges to identify what they might be, and to enforce the judges’ list against laws duly enacted by the people.” Troxel v. Granville, 530 U.S. 57, 91 (2000) (dissenting from recognition of due-process-derived parental right to direct the upbringing of their children). Notice the recurrence to the Ninth Amendment as a “constitutional ‘saving clause’” in Chief Justice Burger’s plurality opinion in Richmond Newspapers v. Virginia, 448 U.S. 555, 579–80 & n.15 (1980). Scholarly efforts to establish the clause as a substantive protection of rights include J. ELY, DEMOCRACY AND DISTRUST: A THEORY OF JUDICIAL REVIEW 34–41 (1980); and C. BLACK, DECISION ACCORDING TO LAW (1981), critically reviewed in W. Van Alstyne, Slouching Toward Bethlehem with the Ninth Amendment, 91 YALE L. J. 207 (1981). For a collection of articles on the Ninth Amendment, see THE RIGHTS RETAINED BY THE PEOPLE: THE HISTORY AND MEANING OF THE NINTH AMENDMENT (Randy E. Barnett ed., 1989).

nolu chan  posted on  2019-12-26   0:10:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: A K A Stone (#110)

The Commerce Clause of the Constitution, like every other clause therein, means what the Supreme Court says it means. Currently, the meaning is so broad that I can't off the top of my head think of any commerce not being regulable. Perhaps there is some limiting case law. When I last looked at the issue, long ago in law school, a farmer growing crops on his own farm to feed his own livestock was sufficiently engaged in "interstate commerce" (because of the potential effect of such activity thereupon), that his activity was regulable. I can't think of any economic activity that wouldn't be federally regulable under that broad standard. Perhaps a kid's lemonade stand on a cul- de-sac far away from an interstate highway? (But state and local authorities could take interest.)

Vicomte13  posted on  2019-12-26   7:07:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: nolu chan (#116)

ping to the above

Vicomte13  posted on  2019-12-26   7:08:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: nolu chan (#115)

Perhaps an example will help clarify.

The Founders who were leery of the Bill of Rights were not opposed to the rights enumerated. Rather, they were concerned about the application to matters of rights of the interpretive doctrine that has come down to us as the "expresio unius" doctrine, from the Latin "expresio unius est exclusio alterius" (literally, to express one thing, or a set of things, in a contract as being covered by that contract is to exclude everything NOT listed).

We see lawyers draft around the "expresio unius" problem by adding the words "including, but not limited to..." before lists in modern contracts.

The 9th Amendment is an 18th Century effort to prevent the application of what we would call "expresio unius" doctrine. The fear was that the list of enumerated rights would be interpreted to exclude all other rights not enumerated, as in a contract. The 9th Amendment says no.

Now the example: the marital right of consortium is long established in Common and Civil Law. It's not mentioned in the Constitution. It did not, therefore, cease to exist with ratification, but rather, is assumed to exist as before. That's what the 9th is for - it's a safeguard against that sort of interpretive game by an unscrupulous government. There is no list of unenumerated rights - that's the whole point of the exercise.

Vicomte13  posted on  2019-12-26   7:26:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: Vicomte13 (#116)

Currently, the meaning

lol

A K A Stone  posted on  2019-12-26   17:41:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: Vicomte13 (#118)

Perhaps an example will help clarify.

The Founders who were leery of the Bill of Rights were not opposed to the rights enumerated. Rather, they were concerned about the application to matters of rights of the interpretive doctrine that has come down to us as the "expresio unius" doctrine, from the Latin "expresio unius est exclusio alterius" (literally, to express one thing, or a set of things, in a contract as being covered by that contract is to exclude everything NOT listed).

We see lawyers draft around the "expresio unius" problem by adding the words "including, but not limited to..." before lists in modern contracts.

The 9th Amendment is an 18th Century effort to prevent the application of what we would call "expresio unius" doctrine. The fear was that the list of enumerated rights would be interpreted to exclude all other rights not enumerated, as in a contract. The 9th Amendment says no.

Now the example: the marital right of consortium is long established in Common and Civil Law. It's not mentioned in the Constitution. It did not, therefore, cease to exist with ratification, but rather, is assumed to exist as before. That's what the 9th is for - it's a safeguard against that sort of interpretive game by an unscrupulous government. There is no list of unenumerated rights - that's the whole point of the exercise.

That makes sense. Kudos.

A K A Stone  posted on  2019-12-26   17:44:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: Vicomte13 (#116)

means what the Supreme Court says it means. Currently, the meaning is so broad

It means what it says. They can regulate interstate commerce. When the Supreme court gets it wrong the meaning of words don't change. It means they got it wrong and we have to live with it or rebel. They are just opinions. The truth is the truth. The truth is whatever I say it is. :)

A K A Stone  posted on  2019-12-26   17:48:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: Vicomte13, A K A Stone (#116)

[Vicomte13 #116 to A K A Stone] The Commerce Clause of the Constitution, like every other clause therein, means what the Supreme Court says it means.

This is the fact, although it tends to be given short shrift around here. SCOTUS is the ultimate arbiter of what the law is. A personal opinion that a Court opinion is wrong does not have any legal effect.

[Vicomte13 #116 to A K A Stone] Currently, the meaning is so broad that I can't off the top of my head think of any commerce not being regulable. Perhaps there is some limiting case law. When I last looked at the issue, long ago in law school, a farmer growing crops on his own farm to feed his own livestock was sufficiently engaged in "interstate commerce" (because of the potential effect of such activity thereupon), that his activity was regulable. I can't think of any economic activity that wouldn't be federally regulable under that broad standard.

For the lurkers to this conversation, I believe the farmer case was Wickard v. Filburn 317 U.S. 111 (1942). In that case, the family farm was in Montgomery County, Ohio.

I agree with your assessment that the Court expanded the Federal power to encompass just about every conceivable act of commerce. It was not easy to attempt expansion of power exceeding every conceivable act of commerce, although Obamacare found a way to try.

With Obamacare, an attempt was made, pursuant to the Commerce Clause, to regulate or penalize inaction, a failure to engage in commerce by not purchasing private, for-profit health insurance. I argued the unconstitutionality of such attempted usage of the Commerce Clause to regulate what was the absence of commerce. Because the individual mandate was declared unconstitutional under the Commerce Clause, the mandate was interpreted as a tax and upheld under the taxing power, but SCOTUS recently held that it can no longer be interpreted as a tax as legal changes have stripped it of any ability to raise revenue, eluding the definition of a tax.

At least there is something that escapes the Commerce Clause, although it is not an action, but an inaction. Then again, perhaps an inaction is a nothing.

[Vicomte13 #118 to nolu chan] Perhaps an example will help clarify.

The Founders who were leery of the Bill of Rights were not opposed to the rights enumerated. Rather, they were concerned about the application to matters of rights of the interpretive doctrine that has come down to us as the "expresio unius" doctrine, from the Latin "expresio unius est exclusio alterius" (literally, to express one thing, or a set of things, in a contract as being covered by that contract is to exclude everything NOT listed).

You are perfectly correct in what you state. I would only supplement that Framers saw the original Bill of Rights as only applicable in restraint of the Federal government. It did not apply at all to the States until after the 14th Amendment, and subsequent selective incorporation against the States by the Court.

nolu chan  posted on  2019-12-26   18:11:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: Vicomte13, A K A Stone (#118)

[Vicomte13 #116 to A K A Stone] The Commerce Clause of the Constitution, like every other clause therein, means what the Supreme Court says it means.

This is the fact, although it tends to be given short shrift around here. SCOTUS is the ultimate arbiter of what the law is. A personal opinion that a Court opinion is wrong does not have any legal effect.

[Vicomte13 #116 to A K A Stone] Currently, the meaning is so broad that I can't off the top of my head think of any commerce not being regulable. Perhaps there is some limiting case law. When I last looked at the issue, long ago in law school, a farmer growing crops on his own farm to feed his own livestock was sufficiently engaged in "interstate commerce" (because of the potential effect of such activity thereupon), that his activity was regulable. I can't think of any economic activity that wouldn't be federally regulable under that broad standard.

For the lurkers to this conversation, I believe the farmer case was Wickard v. Filburn 317 U.S. 111 (1942). In that case, the family farm was in Montgomery County, Ohio.

I agree with your assessment that the Court expanded the Federal power to encompass just about every conceivable act of commerce. It was not easy to attempt expansion of power exceeding every conceivable act of commerce, although Obamacare found a way to try.

With Obamacare, an attempt was made, pursuant to the Commerce Clause, to regulate or penalize inaction, a failure to engage in commerce by not purchasing private, for-profit health insurance. I argued the unconstitutionality of such attempted usage of the Commerce Clause to regulate what was the absence of commerce. Because the individual mandate was declared unconstitutional under the Commerce Clause, the mandate was interpreted as a tax and upheld under the taxing power, but SCOTUS recently held that it can no longer be interpreted as a tax as legal changes have stripped it of any ability to raise revenue, eluding the definition of a tax.

At least there is something that escapes the Commerce Clause, although it is not an action, but an inaction. Then again, perhaps an inaction is a nothing.

[Vicomte13 #118 to nolu chan] Perhaps an example will help clarify.

The Founders who were leery of the Bill of Rights were not opposed to the rights enumerated. Rather, they were concerned about the application to matters of rights of the interpretive doctrine that has come down to us as the "expresio unius" doctrine, from the Latin "expresio unius est exclusio alterius" (literally, to express one thing, or a set of things, in a contract as being covered by that contract is to exclude everything NOT listed).

You are perfectly correct in what you state. I would only supplement that Framers saw the original Bill of Rights as only applicable in restraint of the Federal government. It did not apply at all to the States until after the 14th Amendment, and subsequent selective incorporation against the States by the Court.

[Vicomte13 #118 to nolu chan] The 9th Amendment is an 18th Century effort to prevent the application of what we would call "expresio unius" doctrine. The fear was that the list of enumerated rights would be interpreted to exclude all other rights not enumerated, as in a contract. The 9th Amendment says no.

The proposed 9th Amendment was stripped of much of its important content by the Committee of Eleven. The adopted 9th Amendment (and the whole BoR) generally served as a restraint on the Federal government. The text of the 9th served to restrain the Federal government from adopting any construction of the inclusion of enumerated rights as excluding unenumerated rights, as you state.

This only restrained actions against claimed unnumerated rights on the basis of their lack of enumeration.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

The enumeration of certain rights cannot be cited to deny an unnumerated right. It is left to the Courts to decide what is, or is not, an unnumerated right, and whether that right is "fundamental." Not all legislation that burdens a fundamental right is unconstitutional, but is subject to a stricter standard of review.

For the casual reader, Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Ed.:

Fundamental rights. Those rights which have their source, and are explicitly or implicitly guaranteed, in the federal Constitution, Price v. Cohen, C.A.Pa., 715 F.2d 87, 93, and state constitutions, Sidle v. Majors, 264 Ind. 206, 341 N.E.2d 763. See e.g., Bill of rights.

Challenged legislation that significantly burdens a "fundamental right" (examples include First Amendment rights, (privacy, and the right to travel interstate) will be reviewed under a stricter standard of review. A law will be held violative of the due process clause if it is not closely tailored to promote a compelling or overriding interest of government. A similar principle applies under Equal Protection law.

I would note one quibble with Black's. The Constitution does not guarantee rights, so much as it declares restrictions upon the powers granted to the Federal government. Congress shall pass no law abridging the right to free speech. The restriction is not absolute, as the right to free speech is not absolute. The right itself does not include a "right" to utter libelous or slanderous statements, to shout "fire" in a crowded theater, or to incite a riot.

[Vicomte13 #118 to nolu chan] Now the example: the marital right of consortium is long established in Common and Civil Law. It's not mentioned in the Constitution. It did not, therefore, cease to exist with ratification, but rather, is assumed to exist as before. That's what the 9th is for - it's a safeguard against that sort of interpretive game by an unscrupulous government. There is no list of unenumerated rights - that's the whole point of the exercise.

You are absolutely correct in asserting that, the marital right of consortium is long established in Common and Civil Law.

[Vicomte13 #118 to nolu chan] It did not, therefore, cease to exist with ratification, but rather, is assumed to exist as before. That's what the 9th is for - it's a safeguard against that sort of interpretive game by an unscrupulous government.

However, I would note, the marital right to consortium of two people of the same sex is not long established in Common and Civil Law. Nor does the penumbra of an emanating unnumerated right of privacy broad enough to encompass condoms and abortions seem to be well established in Common and Civil Law.

In Obergefell, Griswold, and Roe, the Court appeared to use the empty vessel of substantive due process to pour new meaning into the Constitution. A criticism of this is that the Court appears almost as an ad hoc Constitutional Convention, expanding Federal power. It is strange that the Bill of Rights is invoked to expand Federal power, when it was designed to prevent the expansion of Federal power.

For an example, the right to privacy is an unnumerated right, as is the right to abortion. The 9th Amendment, inter alia, was cited in support of the right to abortion. The 9th Amendment restrained government denial of the asserted right to abortion via construing the Constitution to deny the existence of said right because it was not enumerated. Application extended to the States by incorporation via the 14th Amendment would appear to restrain the States from denying the asserted right to abortion via construing the Constitution as denying said right's existence because it was not enumerated.

What I fail to see is how the 9th Amendment can be contorted to establish the existence of a positive right to abortion. If it existed as a right in Common or Civil law, I see how it could be found there. But how it is found in a penumbra from an emanation from an unnumerated right eludes me.

I do not find the right to abortion in a penumbra emanating from the unenumerated right to privacy. I simply do not find abortion to be a constitutional right. SCOTUS found that, and they made it law. SCOTUS can overturn Roe and it will no longer be a constitutional right, much as Pluto is no longer a planet.

In the end, what SCOTUS says is the law. Until they change their mind, or the law itself is changed, and then the most recent statement becomes the law.

nolu chan  posted on  2019-12-26   18:26:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: A K A Stone, Vicomte13 (#121)

It means what it says. They can regulate interstate commerce. When the Supreme court gets it wrong the meaning of words don't change.

Even when SCOTUS gets it wrong, what they say is the law. That's the truth. Abortion and gay marriage are constitutional, and growing more than your alloted quota of corn is illegal, and unnumerated rights emanate penumbras broad enough to encompass more unnumerated rights.

nolu chan  posted on  2019-12-26   18:34:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: nolu chan (#124)

Even when SCOTUS gets it wrong, what they say is the law. That's the truth.

Sure it is. It is the system we have. But the truth is still the truth and they get it wrong often. That is why it is color of law.

I know my opinion doesn't count on the law. I'm just stating what I believe to be true. I believe they get it wrong and it is illegitimate when I say it is. :)

A K A Stone  posted on  2019-12-26   19:07:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: nolu chan (#123)

In the end, what SCOTUS says is the law. Until they change their mind, or the law itself is changed, and then the most recent statement becomes the law.

If you want to change the law, start with changing the flag with the yellow-fringe on it. usa-the-republic.com/item...interest/flag%20code.html You can read where titled "THE FLAG IS PRECISELY DEFINED BY LAW"

goldilucky  posted on  2019-12-26   22:32:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: goldilucky (#126)

If you want to change the law, start with changing the flag with the yellow-fringe on it. usa-the-republic.com/item...interest/flag%20code.html You can read where titled "THE FLAG IS PRECISELY DEFINED BY LAW"

Your blather is tax protester nonsense which was was disposed of decades ago as being frivolous and of no merit whatever. A lawyer making that argument could be subjected to sanctions for frivolous filing.

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/912/224/1986395/

United States v. Greenstreet, 912 F.Supp. 224 (N.D. Tex. 1996).

[Excerpt]

Finally, Defendant Greenstreet's response to Plaintiff's motion for summary judgment identifies this Court as an "Admiralty Court" without further discussing his allegation. If his reference is to be construed as a jurisdictional challenge, his motion is denied. Others have attempted to persuade the judiciary that fringe on an American flag denotes a court of admiralty. In light of the fact that this Court has such a flag in its courtroom, the issue is addressed. The concept behind the theory the proponent asserts is that if a courtroom is adorned with a flag which happens to be fringed around the edges, such decor indicates that the court is one of admiralty jurisdiction exclusively. To think that a fringed flag adorning the courtroom somehow limits this Court's jurisdiction is frivolous. See Vella v. McCammon, 671 F. Supp. 1128, 1129 (S.D.Tex.1987) (describing petitioner's claim that court lacked jurisdiction because flag was fringed as "without merit" and "totally frivolous"). Unfortunately for Defendant Greenstreet, decor is not a determinant for jurisdiction.

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/671/1128/2595134/

Vella v. McCammon, 671 F. Supp. 1128 (S.D. Tex. 1987)

[Excerpt]

The remaining claims that Petitioner has asserted by way of motion to dismiss, e.g. Court lacking jurisdiction because the Court's flag has yellow fringes on it, were denied and the Court considers them to have not only been without merit but also to have been totally frivolous. Petitioner's claims have no arguable basis in law or fact and the appeal is not taken in good faith.

nolu chan  posted on  2019-12-27   1:49:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: A K A Stone (#121)

The truth is whatever I say it is. :)

It is good to be The King.

Vicomte13  posted on  2019-12-27   9:34:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: nolu chan (#122)

Yes, Wickard v. Filburn. That case made me angry in law school. It's an instance of "Oh, COME ON!" But, it is what it is, and my irritation at it doesn't change the fact that it is the way things are.

And yes, the Obamacare overreach DID finally result in the Supremes finding a limit to the Commerce Clause - the regulation of INACTION. i think past courts would have found even that within the scope of regulation, but the conservative court has found a limit.

Vicomte13  posted on  2019-12-27   10:40:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: nolu chan (#127) (Edited)

Your blather is tax protester nonsense which was was disposed of decades ago as being frivolous and of no merit whatever. A lawyer making that argument could be subjected to sanctions for frivolous filing.

The Congress shall have Power to Lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excise, to Pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;" The Constitution for the United States of America, Article 1, Section 8, paragraph 1. [emphasis added]

No Capitation or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration hereinbefore directed to be taken." The Constitution for the United States of America, Article 1, Section 9, paragraph 4. [emphasis added]

As for your tax protestor comment I will leave you with the exact tax statute that would be applicable were I held to be liable to collect such a tax.

26 CFR, 601.103 (a) is the only place which tells us who is required to file a return, provided that person has been properly noticed by the District Director to KEEP RECORDS AND THEN NOTICED THAT HE/SHE IS REQUIRED TO FILE. It states, "In general, each taxpayer (or person required to collect and pay over the taxes) is required to file a prescribed form of return ..." Are you a Taxpayer? (l.o.- you must first be a tax collector)

source: http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/irshist.htm

goldilucky  posted on  2019-12-27   13:52:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: goldilucky (#130)

The 16th Amendment and its case law ended that original regime. The current tax system is constitutional and legal.

And anyway, it's NECESSARY to fund a first world country that's the linchpin of world peace, so what purpose is served standing against the idea of taxation? It just raises your blood pressure for no advantage at all.

Of course if you just outright refuse to pay taxes, you go to jail and lose your house.

Vicomte13  posted on  2019-12-27   16:03:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: Vicomte13 (#131) (Edited)

The current tax system is constitutional and legal.

Really, Vicomte13?

http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin...?ArtNum=60787&Disp=15#C15

Since millions of taxpayers such as myself paid into a penalty fund last year for not having such insurance and then come to find out this so-called fraud tax "law" was indeed unconstitutional just begs for those taxpayers to bring class-action suits. And it was indeed a direct tax.

So if this makes me out to be some tax protestor, remember too that we still do have a First Amendment Right to redress our grievances before a court system. It is both our right and responsibility to redress such pertinent matters of this kind.

goldilucky  posted on  2019-12-27   18:56:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: goldilucky, Vicomte13 (#130)

As for your tax protestor comment I will leave you with the exact tax statute that would be applicable were I held to be liable to collect such a tax.

26 CFR, 601.103 (a) is the only place which tells us who is required to file a return, provided that person has been properly noticed by the District Director to KEEP RECORDS AND THEN NOTICED THAT HE/SHE IS REQUIRED TO FILE. It states, "In general, each taxpayer (or person required to collect and pay over the taxes) is required to file a prescribed form of return ..." Are you a Taxpayer? (l.o.- you must first be a tax collector)

source: http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/irshist.htm

Consider yourself one of the most gullible dumbshits on the planet. It is an insult that you even tried to run this bullshit past me.

Your criminal wacko, dingbat source:

https://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/irshist.htm

Who and What is the IRS?

Historical Note

History & New Evidence that it is a foreign agency.

By Dan Meador
April 1, 2000
dmeador@poncacity.net

Things are looking up for Dan Meador. He did his time in prison and got out. Perhaps you could find a source of legal advice who did not participate in a tax scam, and who is not a convicted criminal with a prison record.

Look what your wacko, criminal dingbat source's bullshit did to some poor bastard:

https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/1085748/steinmetz-v-wolgamot/

Steinmetz v. Wilgamot, 2013 Il App (1st) 121375

¶ 10 Mr. Wolgamot also recommended to plaintiff that he contact Mr. Wasson and Mr. Starns regarding the notice of deficiency. Mr. Wasson and Mr. Starns in turn referred plaintiff to a “legal researcher” named Dan Meador. Mr. Meador told plaintiff that the IRS was wrong with respect to the alleged deficiency, and that he would prepare documents that would help plaintiff deal with the IRS. Mr. Meador prepared a series of documents that were delivered by Mr. Starns to plaintiff. Plaintiff signed the documents prepared by Mr. Meador and sent them to the IRS. Plaintiff did not specify the exact dates he spoke with Mr. Wasson, Mr. Starns and Mr. Meador and signed the documents, although the chronology again indicates a time period of 1999-2002. Plaintiff stated he never considered paying the deficiency to the IRS because he “was being reassured by everybody that this was legal.”

¶ 11 Plaintiff testified that in response to Mr. Meador’s documents, the IRS sent him a letter stating that Mr. Meador’s arguments were “frivolous.”

[...]

¶ 34 Plaintiff argues that after receiving the notice of deficiency, his discovery of the actionable legal malpractice claim against defendants was delayed by the acts/omissions of Mr. Wolgamot and of persons referred directly or indirectly by Mr. Wolgamot (i.e., Mr. Starns, Mr. Wasson, Mr. Meador, and Mr. Vallone), who constantly reassured plaintiff that his participation in the AEGIS program was legal and could be defended. Plaintiff also argues that discovery of the actionable legal malpractice claim against defendants was further delayed by Mr. Wolgamot’s admitted intentional concealment of his doubts about the legality of the AEGIS trusts. Plaintiff contends that as result of the actions and omissions of Mr. Wolgamot and the persons to whom plaintiff had been referred, plaintiff did not discover he had an actionable claim for legal malpractice against defendants until December 31, 2003, when Mr. Coobs wrote him that he likely had claims against unspecified third parties. Elsewhere in his appellant’s brief, plaintiff contends he did not discover he had an actionable claim for legal malpractice against defendants until Mr. Pomerance informed him so in January 2004. Plaintiff argues he filed his complaint for legal malpractice on December 22, 2005, within two years of either of the dates on which he allegedly learned of his actionable claim against defendants (December 31, 2003, or January 2004), and thus the trial court erred in finding his legal malpractice action time-barred as a matter of law and granting summary judgment for defendants.

[...]

¶ 38 Even if, for the sake of argument only, we considered the statute of limitations as beginning to run only when plaintiff reasonably should have known he had an actionable claim against defendants, the facts indicate he reasonably should have known of his actionable claim for legal malpractice against defendants no later than October 10, 2003, when he retained the law firm of Meyer Capel to represent him. Specifically, by October 10, 2003, plaintiff had: (1) enrolled in AEGIS at Mr. Wolgamot’s prompting so as to provide him with asset protection and tax savings, despite Mr. Foster’s warning that his participation in AEGIS could lead to an audit; (2) received a notice of deficiency for the first two tax years he had been an AEGIS member; (3) been informed by the IRS that the defense to the notice offered by Mr. Meador was frivolous; (4) been informed by Ms. Ungaro that plaintiff’s participation in the AEGIS program, including its use of offshore trusts and debit cards, could lead him to being charged with money laundering and/or tax evasion; (5) received newsletters from Mr. Vallone relating to “problems” AEGIS members were having with the IRS, including an instance when the AEGIS office was raided by armed IRS agents who carted off documents; (6) received a notice from the IRS stating he owed $247,984.45 in back taxes for the years covering his participation in the AEGIS program; (7) received a notice from the Illinois Department of Revenue that he owed $30,813 in back taxes for the first two tax years he had been an AEGIS member; (8) authorized his secretary to send a letter to Mr. Starns in which she referenced AEGIS as constituting a “scam”; (9) been notified that Mr. Foster had been served with a subpoena from the Illinois Department of Revenue, Bureau of Criminal Investigations, to produce tax documents relating to plaintiff for years he had been an AEGIS member (1997 to 2001); (10) been served with a subpoena compelling him to provide AEGIS-related documents for a federal grand jury on December 3, 2002; and (11) been threatened by the Illinois Department of Revenue that it would refer plaintiff to the Illinois Department of Professional Regulation for proceedings to suspend his medical license if he did not pay the money he owed in back taxes for the years he had been an AEGIS member.

¶ 39 In sum, all these notifications and subpoenas from 1999 to 2003 informed plaintiff that, far from reducing his tax liability as promised by defendants, his participation in the AEGIS program was increasing his tax liabilities and subjecting him to potential criminal prosecution and loss of his medical license. By the time plaintiff retained Meyer Capel on October 10, 2003, to handle any proceedings brought against him by the Illinois Department of Professional Regulation in connection with his failure to pay taxes under AEGIS, he reasonably should have known that he was injured by his participation in the AEGIS program, that his injury was wrongfully caused, and that he had an actionable claim against defendants. Plaintiff still did not file suit for legal malpractice until more than two years lat er, December 22, 2005. Thus, even under plaintiff’s reading of Khan as holding that the twoyear limitations period does not begin to run until plaintiff realizes he has an actionable claim, plaintiff’s legal malpractice action against defendants still was not timely filed. Accordingly, the trial court correctly found plaintiff’s legal malpractice action was timebarred as a matter of law.

¶ 40 Next, plaintiff argues defendants should be estopped from raising a limitations defense, given that Mr. Wolgamot assured plaintiff the AEGIS program was legal and performed legal work to allow plaintiff to continue in AEGIS even after receipt of the notice of deficiency, referred plaintiff to persons who assured him of the legality of the AEGIS program, and withheld the fact that the Seventh Circuit had found the AEGIS program was not a legitimate tax shelter. “The party claiming estoppel has the burden of proving it by clear and unequivocal evidence.” Geddes v. Mill Creek Country Club, Inc., 196 Ill. 2d 302, 314 (2001). “To establish equitable estoppel, the party claiming estoppel must demonstrate that: (1) the other person misrepresented or concealed material facts; (2) the other person knew at the time he or she made the representations that they were untrue; (3) the party claiming estoppel did not know that the representations were untrue when they were made and when they were acted upon; (4) the other person intended or reasonably expected that the party claiming estoppel would act upon the representations; (5) the party claiming estoppel reasonably relied upon the representations in good faith to his or her detriment; and (6) the party claiming estoppel would be prejudiced by his or her reliance on the representations if the other person is permitted to deny the truth thereof.” (Emphasis added.) Id. at 313-14. “Under Illinois law, equitable estoppel does not give a plaintiff the entire limitations period measured from the date the defendant discontinues the conduct that lulled the plaintiff into inaction.” Butler v. Mayer, Brown & Platt, 301 Ill. App. 3d 919, 925 (1998). Rather, plaintiff is allowed a “reasonable period to bring suit.” Id. at 926.

nolu chan  posted on  2019-12-28   1:54:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: goldilucky (#130)

Your criminal wacko, dingbat source:

https://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/irshist.htm

Who and What is the IRS?

Historical Note

History & New Evidence that it is a foreign agency.

By Dan Meador
April 1, 2000
dmeador@poncacity.net

https://www.bop.gov/inmateloc/

DAN LESLIE MEADOR
Register Number: 07840-062
Age: 75
Race: White
Sex: Male
Released On: 10/02/1998

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp2/45/1263/2498558/

United States v. Meador, 45 F. Supp. 2d 1263 (N.D. Okla. 1999)

US District Court for the Northern District of Oklahoma - 45 F. Supp. 2d 1263 (N.D. Okla. 1999)

April 2, 1999

45 F. Supp. 2d 1263 (1999)

UNITED STATES of America, Plaintiff,
v.
Dan Leslie MEADOR, Defendant.

No. 96-CR-113-C.

United States District Court, N.D. Oklahoma.

April 2, 1999.

ORDER

H. DALE COOK, District Judge.

Before the Court is defendant, Dan Meador's, motion, styled "Application for Writ of Habeas Corpus." However, since 28 U.S.C. § 2255 is the exclusive remedy for a prisoner in federal custody who asserts that his sentence was imposed in violation of federal law, the Court will treat Meador's present application as a motion brought pursuant to § 2255.

In August 1996, Meador was named in a three Count Indictment, charging him with obstruction of justice and unlawfully communicating with a grand juror, in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 1503-1504. Meador proceeded to trial, and the jury returned a verdict of guilty on all Counts on January 10, 1997. In May 1997, the Court denied numerous post-trial motions filed by Meador, including motions for judgment of acquittal and new trial. In June 1997, Meador was sentenced to a term of 16 months' imprisonment, three years of supervised release, and fined $2,000. Meador filed notice of appeal on June 30, 1997. However, the Tenth Circuit dismissed the appeal on December 19, 1997, for lack of prosecution. Meador did not thereafter attempt to seek rehearing or otherwise move to *1264 have his appeal reinstated by the Circuit. Meador mailed his present motion to the Court, and it was received by the Clerk on March 2, 1999.[1]

Prior to addressing the merits of Meador's § 2255 motion, the Court must confront certain issues which may bar consideration of the motion. First, since the record indicates that Meador is no longer incarcerated, the Court must determine whether he qualifies for § 2255 relief. Section 2255 provides that, "A prisoner in custody under sentence of a court ... may move the court which imposed the sentence to vacate, set aside or correct the sentence." Thus, § 2255 relief is clearly limited to federal prisoners in custody. However, the "in custody" requirement has been broadly construed, and since Meador is continuing to serve a term of supervised release, he may properly be considered "in custody" for purposes of § 2255. See Scanio v. United States, 37 F.3d 858, 860 (2d Cir. 1994) (while the petitioner must satisfy the jurisdictional "in custody" requirement of § 2255 in order to invoke habeas review by a federal court, a petitioner under supervised release may be considered "in custody"); Maleng v. Cook, 490 U.S. 488, 491-492, 109 S. Ct. 1923, 104 L. Ed. 2d 540 (1989) (recognizing very liberal construction of the "in custody" requirement).

The Court further recognizes that § 2255, as amended in April 1996, provides for a one-year limitations period in which to file a § 2255 motion after the date on which the judgment of conviction becomes final. The judgment of conviction was entered in this case on June 19, 1997. Meador subsequently filed notice of appeal, but the Tenth Circuit ultimately dismissed the appeal on December 19, 1997, for lack of prosecution. Generally, a judgment of conviction is final when the judgment of conviction is rendered, the availability of appeal exhausted, and the time for petition for certiorari has expired. Allen v. Hardy, 478 U.S. 255, 258 n. 1, 106 S. Ct. 2878, 92 L. Ed. 2d 199 (1986). However, in the present case, the Court believes that the judgment of conviction became final when the Circuit dismissed the appeal on December 19, 1997, for lack of prosecution. By failing to prosecute his direct appeal, and by subsequently failing to seek rehearing on, or otherwise challenge, the Circuit's order of dismissal, Meador clearly acquiesced in, and accepted, the finality of his judgment of conviction and sentence. Although Meador may have theoretically had 90 days after the Circuit's order of dismissal in which to petition the Supreme Court for certiorari, such a petition would have been limited solely to the issue of whether the Circuit erred in dismissing his appeal for lack of prosecution, and the merits underlying the direct appeal would not have been considered. Thus, the Court can envision no logical or legal reason for setting the date of finality at 90 days from the date of dismissal.[2] The Court will therefore treat the date of the Circuit's mandate dismissing Meador's appeal as the date that his judgment of conviction became final. See also United States v. Burch, 37 F. Supp. 2d 1249, (D.Kan.1998) (because defendant did not file her § 2255 motion within one year of the date that the Tenth Circuit issued its mandate, her motion is time-barred); Gendron v. United States, 154 F.3d 672, 674 (7th Cir.1998) (federal prisoners who decide not to seek certiorari will have the limitations period begin to run on the date the court of appeals issues the mandate in their direct appeal).[3]

*1265 As the Court has determined that Meador's judgment of conviction became final on December 19, 1997, his present motion, filed on March 2, 1999, is time-barred under § 2255's one-year limitations period.[4]

Accordingly, Meador's present § 2255 motion is hereby DENIED. The Clerk is directed to return to Meador the $5.00 filing fee which he submitted along with his present motion.

IT IS SO ORDERED.

NOTES

[1] Since the record indicates that Meador is no longer incarcerated, the date that the present motion was actually received by the Clerk will be deemed the date that the motion was filed.

[2] Moreover, Meador never, in fact, petitioned the Supreme Court for certiorari, and, as noted, the record does not indicate that he otherwise challenged the dismissal of his direct appeal. These facts strongly indicate that Meador intended to permit the judgment of conviction to become final on the date that the Circuit dismissed his direct appeal, if not before then.

[3] The Court notes that the court in Kapral v. United States, 166 F.3d 565, 570-571 (3rd Cir.1999), disagreed with Gendron, and held that if a defendant does not file a petition for certiorari, the judgment of conviction does not become final until the time for seeking certiorari review expires. While this is an issue which may ultimately need to be decided by the Supreme Court, this Court need not confront this precise issue in the present case. In Kapral, the defendant was convicted of tax evasion, and the Third Circuit affirmed the defendant's judgment of conviction on the merits. The defendant did not file a petition for certiorari, but he later filed a § 2255 motion with the district court. The district court denied the motion as time-barred, using the date that the Circuit affirmed the defendant's conviction as the date that the judgment of conviction became final. The Third Circuit vacated and remanded, finding the § 2255 timely filed, as measured from the date on which the defendant could no longer petition for certiorari.

Kapral is thus distinguishable. In the present case, the Circuit did not affirm Meador's judgment of conviction on the merits. Rather, the Circuit dismissed the appeal for lack of prosecution. Hence, the rationale and reasoning behind the Kapral decision simply do not apply here. The judgment of conviction in the present case therefore became final when Meador failed to prosecute the merits of his direct appeal and permitted the appeal to be dismissed.

[4] Even if the Court were to consider the merits of the present motion, however, the Court finds that it is patently frivolous and must be denied. The motion merely realleges several arguments that Meador raised during the course of the proceedings in the present case, and which the Court found baseless.

nolu chan  posted on  2019-12-28   1:57:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#135. To: goldilucky, Vicomte13 (#130)

An example of inmate Dan Meador insanity:

https://famguardian.org/PublishedAuthors/Indiv/MeadorDan/Forms/attyge.htm

May 19, 1997

W.A. Drew Edmondson, Attorney General
Office of the Attorney General
Oklahoma State Capitol
Oklahoma City 73105/tdc
OKLAHOMA STATE

Re: Complaint under Oklahoma Corrupt Organization Law

ENCLOSURES: OTC-IRS Agreement & my cover letter to Commissioner Anderson

Dear Attorney General Edmondson:

This letter is to convey a complaint against the Internal Revenue Service and various people supportive of Service initiatives under the Oklahoma Corrupt Organization Act.

The complaint immediately issues against the following: H. Dale Cook, Frank McCarthy, and Sam Joyner, all of whom serve as judicial officers for the Article IV United States District Court, Northern District of Oklahoma; Stephen Lewis, United States Attorney for the Northern District of Oklahoma; Neal Kirkpatrick, Assistant United States Attorney; and Tracy Foster, an inspector with the Internal Revenue Service, Arkansas-Oklahoma District. In is not necessary to immediately name John and Jane Doe defendants.

You may notify those complaints initially issued against and K. J. Sawyer, District Director for the Arkansas-Oklahoma District of Internal Revenue Service.

You are aware that the Internal Revenue Service is an agency of the Department of the Treasury, Puerto Rico, a foreign-based entity which has no authority in the continental United States. Public notice to that effect published as a legal publication in The Journal Record the last two weeks of June and the first week of July, 1996. Internal Revenue Service principals did not rebut or correct any element of the public notice so the notice must be presumed correct unless or until evidence to the contrary establishes that the Internal Revenue Service is an agency of the United States Treasury Department, or the United States Department of the Treasury -- you will find at 31 U.S.C. §§ 301- 310 that IRS is not listed as a department or agency in the United States Department of the Treasury.

Additional complaints will be filed by other parties with respect to what appears to be opening as a rather expansive conspiracy involving UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. KENNEY F. MOORE, et al. (#96-CR-082-C), UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. DAN LESLIE MEADOR (#96-CR-113-C), both in the Article IV United States District Court for the Northern District of Oklahoma, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. HOWARD BOOS, et al. (#97-CR-032-A), in the Article IV United States District Court for the Western District of Oklahoma, and possibly other cases.

Dan Meador Affidavit of Complaint:
Page 1 of 3

Article IV United States District Courts located in the Union of several States party to the Constitution have authority only to prosecute misdemeanor offenses committed within United States jurisdiction under authority of 18 U.S.C. § 3401 and attending Department of Defense and Bureau of Land Management regulations. They do not have general jurisdiction in the Union states. Further, as they accommodate IRS-initiated suits, all of which are under color of law (Subtitle F of the Internal Revenue Code does not become effective as law until Title 26 of the United States Code is enacted as positive law), they function on behalf of the "United States of America", an undisclosed foreign principal (you will find that Titles 18, 26 & 28 authorize the "United States" as plaintiff or defendant, not the "United States of America", and that the Constitution of the United States vests authority in a governmental entity identified as the "United States"), the foreign principals being generally but not particularly identified at 28 CFR, Parts 0.49 & 0.64-1.

The OTC-IRS agreement, with my letter to Commissioner Anderson, demonstrates that IRS and Article IV United States District Courts are operating on a presumed State grant of authority to exceed United States jurisdiction in the Union of several States party to the Constitution of the United States. This is contrary to the Separation of Powers Doctrine (Tenth Amendment), and contrary to the Oklahoma prohibition against Federal officials serving as State officials (Art. II § 12, Okla. Constitution). The OTC-IRS agreement, made with no statutory authority from the Oklahoma Legislature or Congress (the Treasury Department is vested with responsibility for administering the Internal Revenue Code in the continental United States, I.R.C. §§ 7701(a)(12)(a) & 7805(a)), implements administrative law which is of no effect in the geographical United States or the Union of several States. Further, the Article IV United States District Courts operate under Admiralty-Civil Law rules, which is contrary to intent of the "arising under" clause at Article III § 2.1 of the Constitution of the United States, and Article VII §§ 4 & 7 of the Constitution of the State of Oklahoma. As legislative courts, they impose bills of attainder, prohibited by the Constitution of the United States at Article I §§ 9.3 & 10.1, and the Constitution of the State of Oklahoma at Article II § 15.

Please be advised that I am filing particular criminal complaints against the above-named parties with the district attorney for Tulsa County, and because there are Federal as well as State offenses involved, will file complaints under the United States anti-terrorism act with Janet Reno, Attorney General of the United States.

At this juncture, I am electing not to include State officers at the Oklahoma Tax Commission in complaints as I don't believe most are cognizant of the extent of fraud and tyranny accommodated by the OTC-IRS agreement even though David Smith, the OTC State-Federal coordinator, was aware of the public notice and other initiatives involving the Internal Revenue Service. Commissioner Anderson and others are at least deserving of due diligence notice and the opportunity to terminate the unlawful agreement.

Dan Meador Affidavit of Complaint:
Page 2 of 3

You first received complaints pertaining to illegal Internal Revenue Service initiatives in October or November 1995. You and Mr. Richard Wintory, your first assistant, have been provided with a considerable amount of research pertaining to the Internal Revenue Service, the character and limited authority of other Federal enforcement agencies (FBI in particular), jurisdiction of the Federal Law Enforcement Community, and jurisdiction and operation of Article IV courts of the United States. Yet you have elected to do nothing, and have for all practical purposes accommodated treason against people you pledged by oath to serve. In other words, by your actions, you appear mired in and committed to the Cooperative Federalism scheme, which was designed to over-throw sovereignty of the several States and the Constitution of the United States.

We have arrived at the time to fish or cut bait. The OTC- IRS administrative agreement put the last piece in place necessary to expose one of the more diabolical elements of Cooperative Federalism - an element that has destroyed and otherwise enslaved multitudes in ever-increasing numbers since World War II. It is time to move ahead to correct the problem. The initiative will proceed state-by-state as what we've unearthed, along with my analysis contained in the OTC commissioner letter, will probably be distributed nationally by the time you receive this complaint.

Should you fail to respond with authorities sufficient to overcome those cited herein and in the OTC Commissioner letter, and fail to seek appropriate remedies dictated by the Oklahoma Corrupt Organizations Act, I reserve the right to seek a specially appointed attorney general via political forum (Art. II §§ 1, 3 & 33, Okla. Const.), and otherwise secure lawful remedies. If you elect to investigate complaints conveyed in and with this letter, I would prefer that you appoint someone other than Mr. Wintory to handle the matter.

Regards,

/s/ Dan Meador

Dan Meador

copies: as needed & convenient

Dan Meador Affidavit of Complaint:
Page 3 of 3

# # #

nolu chan  posted on  2019-12-28   1:58:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: goldilucky, Vicomte13 (#130)

For the complete Meador Manifesto of legal bullshit, see:

https://www.scribd.com/document/441098446/Dan-Meador-Memorandum-of-Law-10th-Cir-97-5128-below-US-v-Meador-OKND-96-cr-113-C

Things never known until Dan Meador showered his wisdom down on the gullible masses.

Highlights:

At 2-3:

Petitioner alleges that the four memorandum segments incorporated in this instrument are adequate: (1) The Article IV United States District Court for the Northern District of Oklahoma has statutory and regulatory capacity to prosecute only misdemeanor and petty offenses, with consent of the accused, on military installations and on land under Department of the Interior jurisdiction, and (b) the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, Federal Rules of Evidence, etc., do not apply to proceedings in Article III district courts of the United States, which have original criminal jurisdiction under 18 USC § 3231; (2) all entities involved in prosecution of the instant matter must disclose five essential elements of authority to establish standing and territorial and subject-matter jurisdiction; (3) the "United States of America" is a government foreign to the United States, and has no standing either by Constitutional delegation of authority or Titles 18, 19, 21, 26 and other titles of the United States Code, save Title 48; and (4) contrary to Article I § 9.3 of the Constitution, the Article IV United States District Court, being a legislative rather than judicial court, has effected a bill of attainder against petitioner.

At 3-4:

The fact that judicial officers (magistrates) in United States District Courts preside under the gold-fringed Union Jack (executive martial law/admiralty banner), rather than the official flag of the United States, prescribed at 4 USC § 1, is proof positive of underlying authority and purpose – when the executive admiralty-martial law authority is extended beyond borders of the geographical United States subject to Congress' Article IV § 3.2 legislative jurisdiction, and the authority moves under threat or actual force of arms, it cannot be construed other than as acts of plunder and war, with the sovereign people of the several States being the object of plunder, suppression, sedition and treason.

At 4:

For example, the last sentence of 40 USC § 255 stipulates that until the United States has formally accepted jurisdiction over land acquired by the United States, with jurisdiction ceded by the legislature of the State where the land is acquired, United States jurisdiction is presumed not to exist. Where the instant matter is concerned, counsel for the "United States of America" may prove United States jurisdiction in the county of Kay, or the community of Ponca City, state of Oklahoma, by entering proof that the United States formally accepted jurisdiction to the county or community in compliance with requirements of 40 USC § 255 and Article I § 8.17 of the Constitution.

At 5:

1. The United States District Court for the Northern District of Oklahoma, and all other United States District Courts located in the Union of several States party to the Constitution. (1) Lack authority to prosecute felony crimes. (2) have no jurisdiction authority beyond that prescribed at 18 USC §7(3), and (3) are incompetent at law as contemplated by the "arising under" clause at Article III § 2.1 and the Fifth Article of Amendment to the Constitution.

At 35:

The Fourteenth Amendment and several amendments promulgated since 1870 expand United States authority relative to voting and civil rights violations against "citizens of the United States", and might conceivably extend authority relating to a true income tax levied under authority of the Sixteenth Amendment, but the United States does not have general civil and criminal jurisdiction throughout the Union of several States party to the Constitution. Without a special constitutional grant of authority, per U.S. vs. Constantine and New York vs. United States, supra, courts of the United States, whether Article III judicial courts (district courts of the United States), or Article IV legislative-territorial courts (United States District Courts), lack subject matter jurisdiction within the Union of several States save on Federal enclaves, defined as United States special maritime and territorial jurisdiction, per 18 USC § 7(3). In many instances, prosecutors for the "United States of America" (a government foreign to the United States) predicate prosecution of offenses on the commerce clause (Art. I § 8.3), but there is an inherent fallacy in this notion as no specific authority for prescribing punishment is enumerated in the Constitution (Tenth Amendment block; U.S. vs. Warrall, supra), and Title 18 of the United States Code addresses only offenses committed in the geographical United States subject to Congress' Article IV § 3.2 legislative jurisdiction, and United States admiralty and maritime jurisdiction.

At 44:

The fact that the Internal Revenue Service is not an agency of the Department of the Treasury of the United States is verified by consulting the list of Department of the Treasury agencies in Title 31 of the United States Code. Also of particular significance where the instant matter is concerned, the Department of the Treasury of the United States is an executive department, the Treasury of the United States is a Congressional department, with the General Accounting Office, under direction of the Comptroller General, being distinct, separate, and responsible for collection of obligations to the United States, including taxes owed under provisions of Subtitles A & C of the Internal Revenue Code (Vol. 68A of the Statutes at Large), as amended in 1986 and since.

The Internal Revenue Service, successor of the Bureau of Internal Revenue, Puerto Rico, (T.D.O. No. 150-29, 1953), operates out of or in conjunction with Puerto Rico Trust No. 62 (Internal Revenue), which is still administered by the Secretary of the Treasury (31 USC § 1321). The Internal Revenue Service has delegated authority to collect certain customs taxes in United States off-shore territories of the United States, and United States maritime jurisdiction.

The so-called "income tax" prescribed in Subtitle A of the Internal Revenue Code is not generally included in authority delegated to the Internal Revenue Service. The "income tax" is simply the "normal tax" preserved in the Internal Revenue Act of November 23, 1921, and the Public Salary Tax Act of 1939 (see Statutes at Large). The "normal tax", as the name of the Public Salary Tax Act of 1939 suggests, applies only to Government employees and officers of corporations construed to be instrumentalities of the United States - corporate entities the United States retains a proprietary interest in. Definitions at 26 USC § 3401(c ) & (d), which apply to withholding Subtitle A & C taxes at the source, confirm this allegation. And as various regulations specify, withholding agents, not employees in general, are the persons liable for these taxes (see 26 CFR, Part 1.1441, etc.).

nolu chan  posted on  2019-12-28   2:00:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#137. To: nolu chan (#136) (Edited)

Obviously, you didn't bother to check all those statutes he mentioned on that link I posted. Instead you choose to attack Meador and his literal works. Do yourself a favor, nolu chan, by going back and clicking onto that link of Meador's, and thoroughly read each section he discusses. Then, head to a law library to pull all those statutes. And along with that pull 26 CFR, 601.103 (a) I referenced of his, there should also be a Federal Register that cross-references this statute.

You say I posted nonsense. All that you post is case law which is non-positive law. If you click onto this link, www.tax-freedom.com/ta16013.htm it list all the US Codes that are Positive Law. Title 26 governs the IRS. All those that are Positive Law have an asterisk next to them. If you notice closely, Title 26 has none.

goldilucky  posted on  2019-12-28   2:50:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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