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Title: What if the Police Don’t Identify Themselves?
Source: The Libertarian Institute
URL Source: https://libertarianinstitute.org/ar ... lice-dont-identify-themselves/
Published: Oct 21, 2019
Author: Peter R. Quinones
Post Date: 2019-10-22 19:02:25 by Deckard
Keywords: None
Views: 6749
Comments: 83

Anyone who pays attention to cases involving police shootings, especially those that result in a fatality, has noticed that the narrative we first hear coming from the press soon changes. It is no different in the case of Atatiana Jefferson, who was gunned down through a closed window in her home on October 12, after a neighbor called police to report that her front door was ajar at 2AM.

Fort Worth police showed up for a “wellness check.” They didn’t bother knocking, instead deciding to pull their guns and lurk around the outside of the house with high-lumen flashlights. Officer Aaron Dean and his partner opened a gate to the backyard, entered, and noticed a silhouette in the window that turned out to be Jefferson. He never identified himself as a police officer, yelled “show me your hands,” and a split second later fired the fatal shot.

On Monday, 10/14/19, the Fort Worth PD announced that Dean had resigned from the police force before they could terminate his employment. The same day the report came that FWPD had filed murder charges against Dean. He was arrested, and soon after made the $200,000 bond.

When the arrest warrant affidavit was released to the public, it was alleged that Jefferson’s un-named 8-year-old nephew, who was playing video games with her, claimed that Atatiana had noticed people lurking outside, picked up her gun and pointed it at the window. Granted, until an investigation is done, facts such as these are not expected to come out (not that it exonerates the officer). On Thursday, the 17th, the narrative surrounding the initial call to police was changed from that of a “wellness check,” to one of a “potential burglary.” Once again, anyone who has examined cases as such recognizes that this is often done in officer-involved shootings.

The subject here should not be what the original intent of the call to law enforcement was made for, but whether a “mundane” has a right to protect their home from a “protected class member,” especially one who failed to identify himself as such. That there are people willing to defend the actions of officer Dean should come as no surprise. But is there a precedent for defending your home from officers who do not announce themselves?

Ray Rosas

On February 19, 2015, a Corpus Christi SWAT team led a “no-knock warrant” assault on the home of Ray Rosas. They had a search warrant and were looking to arrest his nephew, Santiago Garcia, who they suspected of selling drugs. Garcia was not in the home at the time. One would think that simple surveillance of the property could’ve informed police of this. Or they could’ve knocked and asked if he was in the dwelling. But no, Rosas suffered the typical, cowboy-type SWAT raid that police, on average do 50,000 times a year. When you compare that to 800 per annum in the 1980s, one should ask, why?

The team threw a flash-bang grenade into the bedroom of the Rosas home, which was followed by three cops entering without announcing that they were, in fact, law enforcement.

Rosas, whose home had been shot at in the past during drive-by shootings, believed he was being robbed, so he pulled out his gun and fired 15 times, striking three officers, all of whom survived the shooting.

Rosas was arrested on attempted capital murder which, if convicted, carried a sentence of life in prison. During the trial, those charges were reduced to three counts of aggravated assault on a “public official.” Prosecutors argued that he should’ve known they were police because he had a surveillance camera outside his home.

But Rosas had always maintained he did not know they were cops, telling cops as he was being arrested that he did not know they were cops. He also told jailers the same thing that night as they were booking him.

After almost two years in jail, awaiting, and during his trial, the jury deliberated for only two hours and found him not guilty.

The surveillance camera footage that allegedly captured the raid, was never released to the public.

How the case of Ray Rosas relates to the shooting death by law enforcement of Atatiana Jefferson should be clear. In Rosas’ case, the police never announced who they were, threw an explosive device into his bedroom, and trespassed into his home. A Texas jury decided that the testimony of police was contradictory, and that Ray was defending his castle from what he thought were criminals.

In Ft. Worth, the police officers never announced who they were and prowled around the outside of Jefferson’s home with flashlights, entering her fenced-in backyard. At 2 AM, it is not unreasonable to believe that anyone who owns a firearm would’ve done the same. Many on social media have proclaimed they would have done the exact thing that Atatiana did. Yet, there are those who seek to make the inane argument that if Dean is held responsible for this murder, “Who Would Ever be a Cop?” That is a great question ignoring the shooting.

Using the precedent of the Rosas case, the conviction of Aaron Dean looks to be a slam dunk, although they differ in that the aggressor was unharmed and the peaceful inhabitant was slaughtered. The defense will no doubt rely on the Graham vs. Connor decision. Taking that into consideration, the prosecutor is now the one looking down the barrel.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 72.

#2. To: Deckard, Pierre Delecto (#0)

[Thread article by Peter R. Quinones]

Fort Worth police showed up for a “wellness check.”

On Thursday, the 17th, the narrative surrounding the initial call to police was changed from that of a “wellness check,” to one of a “potential burglary.” Once again, anyone who has examined cases as such recognizes that this is often done in officer-involved shootings.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

That was crushed and he has started whoring the same shit, word for word, on a new street corner.

Deckard/Matt Agorist/Peter R. Quinones/Tooconservative posted on 2019-10-22 20:03:07 ET

https://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=60338&Disp=75#C75

#75. To: Tooconservative (#72)

On Thursday, the 17th, the narrative surrounding the initial call to police was changed from that of a “wellness check,” to one of a “potential burglary.” Once again, anyone who has examined cases as such recognizes that this is often done in officer-involved shootings.

Officer Who Shot Atatiana Jefferson Wasn't Asked to Do Wellness Check Despite Neighbor's Request

Government is in the last resort the employment of armed men, of policemen, gendarmes, soldiers, prison guards, and hangmen.
The essential feature of government is the enforcement of its decrees by beating, killing, and imprisoning.
Those who are asking for more government interference are asking ultimately for more compulsion and less freedom.

Deckard  posted on  2019-10-22   20:03:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

https://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=60338&Disp=97#C97

#97. To: Deckard, Matt Agorist (#75)

On Thursday, the 17th, the narrative surrounding the initial call to police was changed from that of a “wellness check,” to one of a “potential burglary.”

Matt. This is just bullshit.

There was never any mention of a wellness check.

On Saturday, 12 Oct 2019, the charge sheet reflected burglary.

On Monday, 14 Oct 2019, the affidavit in support of the arrest warrant reflected open structure.

Matt, I have the arrest warrant and affidavit posted with the article.

Police statements indicate they started calling it an open structure call on Saturday, 12 Oct 2019. They definitely documented it as an open structure call by Monday, 14 Oct 2019.

The TFTP incompetent bullshit is strong with this one. Two.

Matt and Matt, is this your impersonation of Mr. ROBOT?

nolu chan  posted on  2019-10-23   16:16:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

- - - - - - - - - -

https://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=60338&Disp=100#C100

#100. To: Deckard, misterwhite (#75)

On Thursday, the 17th, the narrative surrounding the initial call to police was changed from that of a “wellness check,” to one of a “potential burglary.” Once again, anyone who has examined cases as such recognizes that this is often done in officer-involved shootings.

Matt, It was a burglary on the Oct. 12 call log, and it was an open structure on the subsequent press release of 12 Oct.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGsbrSzXUAMdNna.jpg

Fort Worth Texas Police

PRESS RELEASE

For Immediate Release

Oct. 12, 2019

FORT WORTH, Texas — Serving the public transparently and openly during good events and difficult events is a prerequisite to any professional police department. The Fort Worth Police Department is committed to ensuring the public is aware of major police incidents, especially officer involved shootings, and that details available arc released as quickly as possible given the gravity of the circumstances. On Saturday. Oct. 12, 2019, the Fort Worth Police Department responded to a call for service that resulted in the loss of a life and all evidence, witness statements, body camera footage, and any other available evidence is being collected and collated to ultimately be presented to the Tarrant County District Attorney’s Office to determine the final outcome.

Near 02:25 a.m.. Fort Worth Police Central Division officers responded to an Open Structure call for service in the 1200 block of E. Allen Ave. Details stated the front door to the residence was open. Responding officers searched the perimeter of the house and observed a person standing inside the residence near a window. Perceiving a threat the officer drew his duty weapon and fired one shot striking the person inside the residence. Officers entered the residence locating the individual and a firearm and began providing emergency medical care.

The individual, a black female, who resides at the residence succumbed to her injuries and was pronounced deceased on the scene. The officer, a white male who has been with the department since April of 2018. has been placed on administrative leave pending the outcome the critical police incident investigation. The Fort Worth Police Major Case unit. Internal Affairs unit and the Tarrant County Criminal District Attorney’s Law Enforcement Incident Team were notified and made lhe scene to conduct their aspect of the investigation to ensure all information and evidence was captured and preserved.

The Fort Worth Police Department is releasing available body camera footage to provide transparent and relevant information to the public as we arc allowed within the confines of the Public Information Act and forthcoming investigation. Camera footage inside the residence is not able to be released based on Public Information laws. The Fort Worth Police Department shares the deep concerns of the public and is committed to completing an extremely thorough investigation of this critical police incident to its resolution. As this investigation continues, information will be forthcoming in as timely a manner as possible.

@fortworthpd

nolu chan  posted on  2019-10-23   17:21:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

https://www.scribd.com/document/431151697/Aaron-Dean-Arrest-Warrant-ico-Atatiana-Jefferson

nolu chan  posted on  2019-10-24   9:29:55 ET  (2 images) Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: nolu chan (#2)

The subject here should not be what the original intent of the call to law enforcement was made for, but whether a “mundane” has a right to protect their home from a “protected class member,” especially one who failed to identify himself as such.

That there are people (here) willing to defend the actions of officer Dean should come as no surprise.

Deckard  posted on  2019-10-24   9:33:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Deckard (#4)

The subject here should not be what the original intent of the call to law enforcement was made for, but whether a “mundane” has a right to protect their home from a “protected class member,” especially one who failed to identify himself as such.

How could the victim see a badge in the dark? How could she see a black uniform?

It appears to me that Fort Worth PD has flat black uniforms for daily patrol duties. They seem to have navy blue uniforms for dress occasions and ceremonies. And their cops on bikes and horses also seem to wear dark navy uniforms for everyday patrol duties.

In the dark of night in an unlighted backyard, there is no difference between a dark navy uniform and a black uniform. And badges don't glow in the dark. And nothing can be seen when someone outside in the dark is pointing a flashlight in your eyes while screaming for no more than 1.43333 seconds before blasting you through your bedroom window.

The law only protects cops who have shown their badge and their uniform. And Dean/Larch chose not to present their badges/uniforms.

I wouldn't be surprised if this ends Larch's career in the PD. As senior officer, she should have insisted that they identify themselves to the home's residents. I'm pretty sure it will play out that way.

Tooconservative  posted on  2019-10-24   13:30:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Tooconservative (#6) (Edited)

How could the victim see a badge in the dark? How could she see a black uniform?

Well Matt, nolu sham seems to believe that Atatiana Jefferson should have "presumed" that it was Dean in her backyard and not a burglar. Even though Dean failed on several occasions to announce himself as the police and was pointing a light directly into the window making it impossible for her to see who it was outside, Atatiana should have possessed psychic ability or some such nonsense to determine that it was a cop in her yard.

After all, cops are well-known for prowling around people's yards and snooping in windows at zero-dark-thirty, right?

The message from nolu (and whitey) is that the homeowner is not legally allowed to protect their home with a gun, because it might be the police and not a bad guy outside.

Deckard  posted on  2019-10-24   15:09:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Deckard, nolu chan, misterwhite (#7)

After all, cops are well-known for prowling around people's yards and snooping in windows at zero-dark-thirty, right?

I know. The police prowl every backyard unannounced night and day here in my town. I'm sure it's the practice across the nation. ‹/sarcasm

The message from nolu (and whitey) is that the homeowner is not legally allowed to protect their home with a gun, because it might be the police and not a bad guy outside.

The problem is that this demolishes any right to self-defense because that guy with a gun can get the drop on you before you, the innocent homeowner defending your family and property, has a chance to respond. Castle doctrine holds very strongly the right to self-defense, the defense of property, etc.

Perhaps nolu and misterwhite would like to pass some laws that require all criminals to announce themselves, wear badges and uniforms instead of having the cops do that. That way, the homeowner could see the burglars and rapists and murderers clearly because they had badges/uniforms and announced their presence as a criminal and then the homeowner could finally lawfully reach for a gun to defend themselves and their family.

Really, nolu and misterwhite are turning the right to self-defense entirely on its ears. It's bizarre, a perverse notion of of the American right to self-defense even. It's why their rhetoric sounds so repulsive.

Tooconservative  posted on  2019-10-25   12:42:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Tooconservative (#12)

The problem is that this demolishes any right to self-defense because that guy with a gun can get the drop on you before you, the innocent homeowner defending your family and property, has a chance to respond.

Bullshit. Had she pointed the gun and fired, the cop would be dead. She hesitated. She lost.

The bottom line is she never should have pointed the gun. Get the gun out of the purse, sure, but hold it downward, preferably hidden.

misterwhite  posted on  2019-10-25   14:42:22 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: misterwhite, Tooconservative (#16) (Edited)

They picked up a gun and pointed it out the window at someone they hadn't identified.

Atatiana Jefferson's nephew said she pointed a gun out of a window before a Fort Worth police officer shot her. Her family and the police chief say she had every right to do so.

press release from the Fort Worth Police department said that Dean saw a person standing near a window while searching the home's perimeter and drew his weapon.

  • The Fort Worth Police Department's interim police chief, Ed Kraus, defended Jefferson's decision to carry a gun. 

  • Lee Merritt, a lawyer for Jefferson's family, said she had every right to defend herself, and echoed the fact that officers did not announce themselves when they were on Jefferson's property.

    Also, there's this: The warrant doesn’t say Dean told police he saw a weapon, but it does say his partner could only see Jefferson’s face in the window before Dean opened fire.

    If he had indeed seen a gun, one would think he would be telling everyone in Texas - instead, after realizing he screwed the pooch big time, he resigned before he could be fired.

    The guy was basically a rookie with what, a year on the force? Maybe he didn't realize that history has shown if he had made up some bullshit story about seeing a gun, chances are he'd be given a two-week vacation (suspension) while the department "investigated" the incident and escaped any kind of punishment.

Deckard  posted on  2019-10-25   14:57:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Deckard (#24)

he had made up some bullshit story about seeing a gun

Uh-huh. And if they didn't find a gun? If the nephew said she didn't have a gun? Then what?

misterwhite  posted on  2019-10-26   10:03:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: misterwhite, Deckard (#56)

he had made up some bullshit story about seeing a gun

Uh-huh. And if they didn't find a gun? If the nephew said she didn't have a gun? Then what?

Ah. But they did find a gun. The nephew is documented saying that Jefferson armed herself with a gun, went to the window and aimed it out the window. The gun found near the window was registered to Atatiana Jefferson and she had a concealed carry license. It was hardly a "plant" gun, conveniently registered to Atatiana Jefferson, which an officer pulled out of his sock.

nolu chan  posted on  2019-10-26   13:01:22 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: nolu chan (#62) (Edited)

The nephew is documented saying that Jefferson armed herself with a gun, went to the window and aimed it out the window.

So fucking what? It's her house, she has every right to defend herself from any intruders. She was shot and killed before Dean was finished saying "Get your hands up".

Every fricking cop and expert AGREE that she was well within her rights to defend herself

Go suck some more cop cock shyster.

Your poster boy for "exemplary" police work is going down. The formerly badged coward will be doing 20 years.

And cop worshipers like you and paulsen will STILL defend the miserable piece of shit.

Deckard  posted on  2019-10-26   13:37:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Deckard, misterwhite (#64)

It's her house, she has every right to defend herself from any intruders.

So what? Nobody's arguing that she didn't. Of course, assault with deadly force is not necessarily an appropriate response to the threat of noise a ray of light.

She was shot and killed before Dean was finished saying "Get your hands up".

Damn, your bullshit do get better with every retelling. I'll bet your fish stories are whoppers about reeling in Moby Dick. I breathlessly wait for the next retelling where Officer Dean first shoots her and only later tells her to put up her hands.

Every fricking cop and expert AGREE that she was well within her rights to defend herself

I am impressed that you not only know every cop, but that you also know their opinions on this case. Of course she was within her rights to defend herself from noise and a ray of light. Just as the Fort Worth Police Use of Force policy allowed Officer Dean to defend himself or others from a threat of deadly force, with no warning or attempt at deescalation.

According to Fort Worth policy, Officers are not required to exhaust other reasonable means before resorting to deadly force. More specifically, the policy provides:

"Under no circumstances will the force used by an officer be greater than necessary to make an arrest or a detention or to protect oneself or another, nor will the force be used longer than necessary to subdue the suspect, and deadly force shall not be used except as specifically provided in this directive."

"The use of deadly force is authorized only when it is necessary for officers to protect themselves or others from an immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury.”

Fort Worth Use of Force policy did not require Officer Dean to exhaust other means before resorting to deadly force. Fort Worth Use of Force policy permitted Officer Dean to use deadly force if it was necessary to protect himself or others from an immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm. Staring at the business end of a gun pointed at him, and after given verbal commands to which the subject was non-responsive, Officer Dean perceived a deadly threat of death or serious bodily injury to himself and others. He took the shot to remove the threat.

What about the allegedly required warnings? Is it safely possible and appropriate to issue warnings when thesubject has a gun aimed at you?

• "When safely possible, an officer shall use de-escalation techniques
consistent with department training whenever possible and appropriate before resorting to force and to reduce the need for force.”

For your consideration of every cop, indeed EXPERT cops:

https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/fort-worth/article236163388.html

Officer in shooting acted as if responding to burglary, not welfare check, expert says

By Nichole Manna
Fort Worth Star-Telegram
October 13, 2019 04:59 PM, Updated October 14, 2019 10:29 AM

[excerpt]

The 911 records provided to the public don’t give any indication that dispatchers relayed to officers that the call was a welfare check. A police call sheet on Saturday labeled the call as a “burglary.” A written statement released by police on Saturday afternoon referred to the dispatch as an “open structure” call.

Asked on Saturday afternoon what exactly dispatch told the responding officers and what the call was labeled as when officers were sent, Officer Buddy Calzada wrote in an email that more information would be shared during a press conference on Sunday. That question was not answered during the press conference.

It’s important to know what information the officers were given because Benza said officers who are going to a burglary call should react much differently than if they’re checking on someone’s welfare.

https://people.com/crime/officer-shot-atatiana-jefferson-wasnt-doing-wellness-check/

Officer Who Shot Atatiana Jefferson Wasn't Asked to Do Wellness Check Despite Neighbor's Request

Fort Worth Interim Police Chief Ed Kraus told reporters on Tuesday that former officer Aaron Dean was responding to an "open structure call"

By Joelle Goldstein
People Magazine
October 17, 2019 08:50 PM

An “open structure” or “open door call” is much different than a wellness check, Michael “Britt” London, president of the Phoenix Law Enforcement Association, told the outlet.

With an “open structure” call, officers are typically on higher alert, as reports could vary from a door accidentally being left unlocked to something more serious like a burglary.

In the case of a burglary, officers are trained to look for signs that indicate someone has broken into the home, such as a smashed window or broken-down door.

“You are at a higher sensitivity to what is going on with that house,” London told CNN. “You have to be ready for anything. You are taking more of your environment in consideration to be ready for a surprise if there’s one.”

The responding officers did examine the Fort Worth property, with body-camera footage released by the police and shared by multiple outlets showing them walking around the side of the house.

As one officer approached a closed first-floor window with a flashlight, he raised his gun and screamed, “Put your hands up! Show me your hands!” The officer, later identified as Dean, apparently never identified himself as police before firing.

And it appears you are the copsucker. You quote a cop engaged in public relations in preference to the actual use of force policy.

Are you having a mad, bro?

nolu chan  posted on  2019-10-26   14:13:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: nolu chan, Tooconservative (#65)

She was shot and killed before Dean was finished saying "Get your hands up".

Damn, your bullshit do get better with every retelling.

Didn't watch the video or read TC's breakdown of the actual time it took for Dean to pull the trigger, did you sparky?

Go ahead, post more of your copy and paste spam. Make sure you make the font as big as you can - by golly, that impresses the hell out of everyone. That way we can all laugh at your abject desperation.

It's obvious that your worship of all things cop will mot be deterred, so have a good day.

The murderous asshole you keep defending (even though virtually every cop and legal expert has said that he fucked up big time) will be in prison for a long time.

Deckard  posted on  2019-10-26   14:28:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: Deckard (#66)

Didn't watch the video or read TC's breakdown of the actual time it took for Dean to pull the trigger, did you sparky?

That was on the original thread where the Matts embarassed themselves so bad that they started this new thread so they could whore their wares on a new street corner, starting all over again as virgins.

As you seem to have missed it, here is a repeat of the dismissal of Matt as Tooconservative's bullshit story. You really should get that short-term memory checked out.

#92. To: Tooconservative, misterwhite (#72)

As for your ridiculous time estimate of the verbal warning and the shot, I downloaded the video to check it closely playing at slow speed.

The killer cop shouted "Put your hands up, show me your hands".

He began to open his mouth to yell at 00:01:34:28 (28 thirtieths of a second after the 1 minute 34 second point in the video).

He started to yell the 'P' in "Put" at 00:01:35:00, .0666 seconds after he started to open his mouth.

His voiced trailed off after yelling "hands", going quiet at 00:01:36:06

The initial sound of the gunshot began at 00:01:36:11 when the sound spiked and distorted sharply.

From the beginning of the 'P' in "Put" (00:01:34:28) to the beginning of the gunshot sound (00:01:36:11) is 1 and 13/30ths seconds. Or 1.43333 seconds. And I am actually being generous in that measurement by a few thirthieths (sic) of a second.

Damn Matt. Only an asshole of gigantic proportions could claim to have worked out the time to the one hundred thousandth of a second. This claim features the inescapable illogic of the jackass who fantasized about the distance of the Las Vegas shooting using Google Sketch.

The camera shoots 30 frames per second. Your calculation of 1.43333 seconds is bullshit, just as the Las Vegas numbers were bullshit. Using sampling every 1/30th of a second, and calculating to the hundred thousandth of a second is scientific bullshit. The variance of the camera between frames would be greater than 1/100000 of a second. Moreover, the sampling rate does not permit your fantastic calculation. You wasted your time. Don't waste my time, and every else's time with your bullshit.

A purported claim of a time interval calculated down to the 1/100,000th of a second qualifies as ridiculous, make believe bullshit.

As for your ridiculous time estimate of the verbal warning and the shot,

Of course, I made NO ESTIMATE of the time between the verbal warning and the shot. I linked, cited and quoted a news report from the Dallas News.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2019/10/13/questions-and-outrage-after-fort-worth-officer-fatally-shoots-28-year-old-woman-in-her-home/

Questions and outrage after Fort Worth officer fatally shoots 28-year-old woman in her home

By Dana Branham
DallasNews.com
7:52 PM on Oct 13, 2019

[excerpt]

In body-camera footage released Saturday, the officer who shot Jefferson is seen walking around the backyard of the home.

About a minute-and-a-half into the video, he swivels toward a window, then yells, “Put your hands up! Show me your hands!” and fires into the window within about three seconds.

I recall seeing a four-second estimate, but I went with the shorter one.

It is a non-specific estimate qualified with the word about. It does not make believe it is accurate to the 1/100,000th of a second.

nolu chan  posted on  2019-10-26   14:43:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: nolu chan, Tooconservative (#67) (Edited)

From the beginning of the 'P' in "Put" (00:01:34:28) to the beginning of the gunshot sound (00:01:36:11) is 1 and 13/30ths seconds. Or 1.43333 seconds. And I am actually being generous in that measurement by a few thirthieths (sic) of a second.

A thirtieth of a second is equal to one frame of video.

Damn Matt. Only an asshole of gigantic proportions could claim to have worked out the time to the one hundred thousandth of a second.

Apparently your math is fuzzy. The numbers don't lie.

This claim features the inescapable illogic of the jackass who fantasized about the distance of the Las Vegas shooting using Google Sketch.

Like I said, you're a fucking idiot at math. So what if the number is carried out to the 100,000th of a second. Would you STFU about it and agree that it was way less than two seconds?

Deckard  posted on  2019-10-26   14:58:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: Deckard (#68)

A thirtieth of a second is equal to one frame of video.

Hmmm...how to post about this without being totally anal and too-technical...

YouBoob often does convert videos in their cloud to format more suitable to low-bandwidth or toward compatibility with more devices. They do also offer video streams that are almost byte-for-byte of the video uploaded to them.

So we can't be certain that we are seeing the exact video footage that came from Dean's cop-cam. The police might also have fed the cop-cam video into a video editor like Adobe Premiere which can also affect the format.

Anyway, the video that I downloaded direct from YouBoob was 30fps. But they offer lots of other formats, lots of other frame rates, different audio codecs and different audio formats.

In short, it's a real mess even if most of their stuff is now 480p, 720p, 1080p, 4k (2160p).

If you start converting video to various formats and exporting them to other formats, you can also have changes in video and audio formats.

At any rate, in my post which upset nolu so much, I was trying to be as accurate as I could be, given the unknowns of the cop-cam, the video editor used by the Fort Worth police, the unknown video processing that YouTube may or may not have done to it.

I did include the timecode in HH:MM:SS:frame format, exactly as I saw it in my video editor. I scrubbed the video in slo-mo at least 15-20 times, watching for the audio levels to spike, where the shouting began and ended, where the audio levels spiked way into the red with the mic overload from a gunshot so near the microphone. And the video from the cop-cam/police-department/YouTube was in 30fps format.

As for the hundred-thousandths of a second stuff, I will explain that in NTSC (old analog TV standards), we routinely had to use these kinds of conversions and be very precise to get proper results. That's because of the technical particulars of NTSC. However, much the same applies to converting film (24fps) to other formats like NTSC. Or converting PAL to NTSC (or SECAM and other video standards). So nolu is mostly exposing that he isn't a video editing nerd. If nolu went to any video editing nerd, they'd listen patiently to him with a bored look and then explain that that is just how old video nerds and techs talk about things because of the standards that prevailed across the industry for so many years.

From the beginning of the 'P' in "Put" (00:01:34:28) to the beginning of the gunshot sound (00:01:36:11) is 1 and 13/30ths seconds. Or 1.43333 seconds. And I am actually being generous in that measurement by a few thirthieths (sic) of a second.

I did post those numbers and stand by their accuracy. That is what the video shows when you really slo-mo it and watch for the beginning of the yelling, the end of the yelling, and the gunshot. I'll put my numbers up against anyone else's.

I did convert 1 and 13/30ths of a second to decimal since a lot of people really dislike these kinds of fractions and they make reading more difficult. 1.43 seconds is much easier for people to grasp. I did include the 1.43333 but should have included an ellipsis (...) to indicate it was a repeating decimal number. I did put that last '333' on there to indicate that it was repeating. But that came from my calculator, not the video. Just type 13 / 30 into your calulator and you too will see 1.43333... as the decimal result.

At any rate, nolu, if my calculator scared you or offended you, I apologize. But I do not back down one iota from my original post on when the yelling started, when the yelling stopped, and when the gunshot began. I also still think that there was a slight grunting noise just as the cop opened his mouth to start yelling, a subvocalization. And I think he made some kind of grunting noise just as he fired. I hope readers understand that our brains are kind of clunky gadgets and they do lots of funny things that we never notice unless we use very high-speed cameras to measure our own mental processes.

Tooconservative  posted on  2019-10-28   9:13:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 72.

#75. To: Tooconservative (#72)

I did convert 1 and 13/30ths of a second to decimal since a lot of people really dislike these kinds of fractions and they make reading more difficult. 1.43 seconds is much easier for people to grasp. I did include the 1.43333 but should have included an ellipsis (...) to indicate it was a repeating decimal number.

It was obvious to me and anyone else other than nolu that was exactly what you meant. For crying out loud, that's just basic 7th grade math (or maybe even sixth grade).

I wonder what his response would be if your calculation was carried out to 1.43333333333 or longer.

Deckard  posted on  2019-10-28 11:07:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: Tooconservative (#72)

A thirtieth of a second is equal to one frame of video.

Hmmm...how to post about this without being totally anal and too-technical...

YouBoob often does convert videos in their cloud to format more suitable to low-bandwidth or toward compatibility with more devices. They do also offer video streams that are almost byte-for-byte of the video uploaded to them.

So we can't be certain that we are seeing the exact video footage that came from Dean's cop-cam. The police might also have fed the cop-cam video into a video editor like Adobe Premiere which can also affect the format.

Anyway, the video that I downloaded direct from YouBoob was 30fps. But they offer lots of other formats, lots of other frame rates, different audio codecs and different audio formats.

In short, it's a real mess even if most of their stuff is now 480p, 720p, 1080p, 4k (2160p).

If you start converting video to various formats and exporting them to other formats, you can also have changes in video and audio formats.

At any rate, in my post which upset nolu so much, I was trying to be as accurate as I could be, given the unknowns of the cop-cam, the video editor used by the Fort Worth police, the unknown video processing that YouTube may or may not have done to it.

I did include the timecode in HH:MM:SS:frame format, exactly as I saw it in my video editor. I scrubbed the video in slo-mo at least 15-20 times, watching for the audio levels to spike, where the shouting began and ended, where the audio levels spiked way into the red with the mic overload from a gunshot so near the microphone. And the video from the cop-cam/police-department/YouTube was in 30fps format.

As for the hundred-thousandths of a second stuff, I will explain that in NTSC (old analog TV standards), we routinely had to use these kinds of conversions and be very precise to get proper results. That's because of the technical particulars of NTSC. However, much the same applies to converting film (24fps) to other formats like NTSC. Or converting PAL to NTSC (or SECAM and other video standards). So nolu is mostly exposing that he isn't a video editing nerd. If nolu went to any video editing nerd, they'd listen patiently to him with a bored look and then explain that that is just how old video nerds and techs talk about things because of the standards that prevailed across the industry for so many years.

From the beginning of the 'P' in "Put" (00:01:34:28) to the beginning of the gunshot sound (00:01:36:11) is 1 and 13/30ths seconds. Or 1.43333 seconds. And I am actually being generous in that measurement by a few thirthieths (sic) of a second.

I did post those numbers and stand by their accuracy. That is what the video shows when you really slo-mo it and watch for the beginning of the yelling, the end of the yelling, and the gunshot. I'll put my numbers up against anyone else's.

I did convert 1 and 13/30ths of a second to decimal since a lot of people really dislike these kinds of fractions and they make reading more difficult. 1.43 seconds is much easier for people to grasp. I did include the 1.43333 but should have included an ellipsis (...) to indicate it was a repeating decimal number. I did put that last '333' on there to indicate that it was repeating. But that came from my calculator, not the video. Just type 13 / 30 into your calulator and you too will see 1.43333... as the decimal result.

At any rate, nolu, if my calculator scared you or offended you, I apologize. But I do not back down one iota from my original post on when the yelling started, when the yelling stopped, and when the gunshot began. I also still think that there was a slight grunting noise just as the cop opened his mouth to start yelling, a subvocalization. And I think he made some kind of grunting noise just as he fired. I hope readers understand that our brains are kind of clunky gadgets and they do lots of funny things that we never notice unless we use very high-speed cameras to measure our own mental processes.

Tooconservative posted on 2019-10-28 9:13:23 ET

Hmmm...how to rebut/dismiss all this without being totally anal and too-technical...

The police body-worn cameras record 30 fps.

nolu chan  posted on  2019-10-28 11:51:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 72.

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