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Title: Idemia: The Corporation Building Spy Grid in China, National ID in India Also Creates Drivers Licenses in the U.S.
Source: Old-Thinker News
URL Source: http://www.oldthinkernews.com/2018/ ... s-drivers-licenses-in-the-u-s/
Published: Aug 22, 2018
Author: Daniel Taylor
Post Date: 2018-08-22 10:13:21 by Deckard
Keywords: None
Views: 8374
Comments: 55

Company that helps manufacture U.S. citizens drivers licenses brags of “building and managing databases of entire populations” across the globe.

Big Tech has gathered unprecedented amounts of personal data from millions of people. At the same time, a system of total surveillance has been constructed: Facial recognition, biometric scanning, cell phone surveillance and more have amassed a huge amount of information.

We see the stories about the growing surveillance state, but we dont hear about the gigantic multinational corporation that is helping to build the physical infrastructure supporting it.

Idemia (formerly Morpho), is a billion dollar multinational corporation. It is responsible for building a significant portion of the world’s biometric surveillance and security systems, operating in about 70 countries. Some American clients of the company include the Department of Defense, Homeland Security, and the FBI.

The company website says that Morpho has been “…building and managing databases of entire populations…” for many years.

From the company site:

Morpho has been building and managing databases of entire populations for governments, law enforcement agencies and other government bodies around the world, whether for national ID, health cards, bank cards or even driver license programs.

In the United States, Idemia is involved in the making of state issued drivers licenses in 42 states.

The company is now pushing digital license trials in the U.S. Delaware and Iowa are among five states involved in the trials this year. With the mobile license, law enforcement will be able to wirelessly “ping” a drivers smartphone for their license. The move is part of a wider trend toward cashless payment.

 

Idemia is assisting China and India with building surveillance and ID systems, trafficking in huge amounts of biometric data across the world.

In China, Idemia has helped build the massive biometric scanning and surveillance system that is used to keep Chinese citizens under a tyrannical boot.

The company has provided biometric payment and authentication systems to the country.

The company website says:

“With a sales office in Hong Kong, Morpho offers services and solutions in the field of digital identity and smart transactions. The world leader in multibiometric identification technologies, Morpho supplies biometric identification systems to Chinese police forces and government immigration agencies.”

“Morpho has also provided facial recognition systems to police agencies in Shanghai, Tianjin, Heilongjiang, Jilin, Jiangxi, Guangzhou and Wenzhou.”

In India, the controversial Aadhaar national ID card system is also enjoying the support of Idemia through Safran Identity & Security, now part of Idemia. The company states that it is “in charge of all technological aspects of Aadhaar”.

“Morpho is one of the companies chosen to take part in an unprecedented program called Aadhaar to count everyone residing in India and then assign each person a unique identification number. Morpho is in charge of all technological aspects of Aadhaar.

Several court cases have gone to India’s supreme court on grounds of privacy violations from Aadhaar. The ID system has had serious security breaches, with access to a billion identities being sold for less than $10 through WhatsApp.

The social credit trap

One of the court filings (Mathew Thomas vs Union of India) details the rise of China’s social credit system, comparing the Indian Aadhaar initiative to the Chinese program.

“The Chinese government initially permitted corporations to aggregate personal data of their customers and built algorithms that could then rate the worth of these customers. As such applications began to get integrated and large technology companies began to dominate every aspect of citizen lives, the ‘Social Credit Rating Systems’ that these companies ran became all the more pervasive.

Once this system had taken hold of the entire country, the State Council of the Central Government in China released an Outline of the Social Credit System Construction Plan
(2014-2020), which specifies that such Social Credit Rating Systems would be integrated into their governance by 2020. This represents the integration of such infrastructure into
the central architecture of the State, and would ensure a devastating amount of State control over its citizens”.

A disturbingly similar pattern is being followed in the United States. Big Tech (Google, Apple, Facebook) has already gathered most of our personal data. It has also absorbed around 90% of internet traffic, and is now openly allying with communist Chinese policies.

Facebook has begun rating users “trustworthiness” on the platform. At the same time, other major tech companies like Apple are removing content at the request of the Chinese government.

Between Idemia issuing digital drivers licenses to U.S. citizens and Big Tech’s data collection, we are inches away from a fully integrated national ID system and an accompanying social credit score.

At the moment, the United States does not have a government backed program like the Chinese. However, if gone unchecked, a de-facto social credit system could still take hold due to the pervasiveness of big tech influence.

Idemia is building the infrastructure of the massive world-wide biometric surveillance grid. Demand for “convenience” with wireless, cardless, cashless payment and shopping is driving us right into their hands.

Thanks to Citizens Council for Health Freedom’s report Exposing Idemia: The Push for National Biometric IDs in America

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 50.

#1. To: Deckard (#0)

Idemia is building the infrastructure of the massive world-wide biometric surveillance grid. Demand for “convenience” with wireless, cardless, cashless payment and shopping is driving us right into their hands.

Yes, it is. And BECAUSE convenience IS paramount in busy lives, and we WILL be going to world-wide biometric surveillance, we HAVE TO UNDERSTAND that traditional morality - which has ALWAYS only been sustained through the opacity of private life and through massive hypocrisy, will no longer work. Traditional morality and its very ineffective enforcement mechanisms will, in an efficient surveillance and enforcement state, become the chain by which every life will be subjected to tyranny.

The ONLY escape from this is to change to the laws that allow the enforcement of morality certain aspects of morality, so that things that used to be subject to censure can no longer be prosecuted at all.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-08-22   10:58:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Vicomte13 (#1)

We HAVE TO UNDERSTAND that traditional morality - which has ALWAYS only been sustained through the opacity of private life and through massive hypocrisy, will no longer work.

HUH??

Again I don't understood where you're coming from.

"Traditional morality" is simply Bible-based. "The Golden Rule"; Ten Commandments; The "Protestant-Ethic".

This consensus of "traditional morality" has worked extremely well for the USA...until the 1960s.

Moreover, it's "traditional", even innate that the human conscience *knows* right and wrong": Lying, cheating, murder, greed...are wrong in ALL cultures. (except in fundamentally evil ones.)

Liberator  posted on  2018-08-22   13:20:02 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Liberator (#2) (Edited)

"Traditional morality" is simply Bible-based. "The Golden Rule"; Ten Commandments; The "Protestant-Ethic".

The Protestant Ethic and "Traditional Morality" CLAIM TO BE Bible based, but they are not, in fact, based on what God actually SAID. They are based on what church leaders have ginned up for their own reasons.

In any case, we're going to head into another one of these debates so I'm going to just step back and state the tactical truth.

The Democrats and the Left, and I - though I am a different side, being neither a Democrat nor of the Left - have a huge advantage over your side, because we simply tolerate individual sin in our own (and I tolerate it everybody) with a "judge not lest ye be judged" standard, and look only at the specific things that the person proposes to do. (The Democrats are perfectly happy to go after YOU guys for the same sins they commit; I am not a hypocrite and don't go after either side over sins I don't care about.) You guys demand moral purity from human beings, and seek to use moral impurity to punish your political enemies.

It never works against us, because we will not join you in punishing people for things that your Protestant Ethic says are morals crimes that we simply are not all that exercised about. So, you do not harness up juries, or the public, only your own side, which is minoritarian. So you lose those fights with us.

BUT the Left win the fights against you, because you guys are hypocrites, your leaders are men, you all have morals crimes and sins too, so you stand on feet of clay, and you DEVOUR each other when it is exposed. So, when they come at you with a morals crime of YOUR leaders, you divide and fight amongst yourselves, and you lose.

As for me, I am just as inclined to let men of the Right (Trump, the various gay Congressmen, etc.) off the hook for their sexual immorality as I am to let men of the Left (Clinton, etc.) off the hook for theirs, so I don't join in either side's witch hunts. I understand that a greater principle of human liberty is at stake, and that the Right is behaving in a short-sighted and suicidal way.

But I DO take a certain satisfaction in seeing Right wing moralizers hoist on their own petard. That so many of those men who voted to impeach Clinton for lying about a consensual blowjob - a question he should never have been asked in the first place, that government officials do not rightly have the POWER to ask - that those men ended up having their careers destroyed and retiring in disgrace when their OWN sexual immorality was revealed struck me as being eminently just, in a divine justice sense.

You have a choice: you can be a rock-solid, tradition-following Christian, wedded to your book and what the ministers have taught over the years, or you can win on the political battlefield. You want to have both, and you can't. Your side loses. I do believe in God, and I agree that he does indeed have a revealed morality, but I think that traditional Protestant Ethics are themselves not from God, not particularly godly, not holy, pure or true, so I do not uphold them, and will not stand for them in politics.

MY beliefs about God allow me to tolerate political leaders who are personally immoral on sexual matters, in the same fashion that Israelites followed the sexually immoral David and the outright sexually depraved Solomon, and God was with them.

You will eat your own in order to uphold a false set of ethical doctrines, believe that God demands that of you because badly educated and self-serving ministers told your forefathers so and nobody has bothered to actually study it deeply for themselves. And you will attack me as "ungodly" for not following your ungodly false beliefs.

Oh pooh.

You're not going to change your mind, and neither am I. Unfortunately for you, it means that you're going to have to continue to twist yourself into knots over a serial adulterer like Trump as your leader, and you'll eventually eat your own. The Democrats never will. I won't eat your allies over the things you will, but I won't tell you that I think your Protestant Ethics are godly, because they are not.

Cooperation and alliance is possible between us because I oppose abortion and euthanasia, support a reasonably strong military, want the regulatory state pared back to what is necessary (you and I will not agree on the degree of this, but we can agree on some of the foundational stuff), want law and order, and agree on some aspects of human rights. We can cooperate on those things. I'm certainly not going to rule out cooperation with you because your religious beliefs are in error and your moral code is not godly - I'm not going to enforce a purity code on you. I understand that politics is pragmatic.

I don't think you can cooperate with me, however, because you have to give me sermons from the perspective of your false religion, which I reject and do not see as coming from God at all. I see it as coming from the pens and minds of distempered men through the ages, and I am not going to pretend that I find value in their views, because I find their views in sharp conflict with what my God tells me. Your religion sounds like a Christian form of Islam to me, and I don't hear God's voice over there either.

So if my paying lip service to your religion is the necessary price for you to be able to cooperate with me politically without going on of moral harangues about your religious beliefs, then you're never going to be able to get along with me, or trust me, or see me as an ally. I am, by your definition, ungodly, evil, a servant of Satan BECAUSE I reject the truth of your religion, not in totum, but on some of the most important points that you consider fundamental to it.

We are not of the same religion. Our religions are not really all that close. I can ally with you pragmatically, and I will. But you can't allow yourself to actually ally with me, because you're a religious and political fanatic who cannot accept heresy or what you consider "evil" in your midst.

Unfortunately for you, with all of that magnificent edifice of ethics, you've got a serial adulterer and philanderer at the head of your party, and you have to support and follow him or hand the whole government over the to Democrats, whom you condemn as demon spawn.

So you have to be a hypocrite to support Trump, and everybody sees it. I don't, because I don't subscribe to your values on the matter in the first place. Trump continues to do what I care about, and I don't care who he had adultery with, or that he paid her off, or that he had adultery. That's God's rule, not mine. God will enforce it on Donald, and that is sufficient. I'm not going to enforce it and reject him, or reject any other of my friends who have had an affair, fallen down, etc. Men are men - I don't judge them for being men. You do. And that makes a tremendous difference that you can't bridge. (I can, if an alliance with you would be useful to advancing the ball of what I care about. That is also true with Muslims. I can ally with them, tactically, to advance what I care about. You have to focus on their religion. I don't.)

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-08-22   15:13:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Vicomte13 (#8)

The Protestant Ethic and "Traditional Morality" CLAIM TO BE Bible based, but they are not, in fact, based on what God actually SAID. They are based on what church leaders have ginned up for their own reasons.

Come on, Vic. The Ten Commandments *isn't* Bible-based?? Nor is the "Golden Rule"? Nor does the Protestant Ethic exists? Since when?

They ALL exist. And became the foundation of America's economic and political freedom. AS this same ethic and "traditional morality" became a *consensus* for ALL Americans. This consensus of shared values is what had created "American". Without it, what we/are we but divided & conquered?

The "Protestant Church" isn't like the RCC; It never had ONE "religious or political Leader like a Pope. Ergo, the Good Book easily guided and conferred our common and traditional "morality" as per applicable Bible chapters and verses.

The Left - have a huge advantage over your side, because we simply tolerate individual sin in our own (and I tolerate it everybody) with a "judge not lest ye be judged" standard, and look only at the specific things that the person proposes to do.

(Wait...are you actually taking the side of The Left here??)

This "Left" etal totally take that verse ( "judge not lest ye be judged" out of context and have NO REAL idea of Jesus' intent and meaning. It's just a convenient snippet/byte used by the Left to justify their own lies and hypocrisy.

(The Democrats are perfectly happy to go after YOU guys for the same sins they commit; I am not a hypocrite and don't go after either side over sins I don't care about.) You guys demand moral purity from human beings, and seek to use moral impurity to punish your political enemies.

We MUST have SOME common consensus for morality as a nation, no, Vic?? I repeat -- without common standards for morality, we are..divided.

As to "purity", WHO exactly is demanding IT??

Look -- They/you can be as ignorant, smug, and disingenuously concerned over "sins" as need be (as well as any pretense over "Judge, lest ye be judged") because most of us know that they are FOS and care not a whit about their snark, fake belief, and hypocrisy.

What are they but...moral relativists/Secular Humanists after all. Of course they are going to rebel against "Traditional Morality". And THIS is where they go off the rails while destroying "American Consensus", aka "Traditional Morality". YOU OTOH ought to know better.

I won't tell you that I think your Protestant Ethics are godly, because they are not.

Tell it to God. He's the Author.

You will attack me as "ungodly" for not following your ungodly false beliefs.

Stop going on the offensive. You claim to be unfairly persecuted, but here you are doing the persecuting and judging. Stay on topic. Which is, "TRADITIONAL MORALITY".

I don't think you can cooperate with me, however, because you have to give me sermons from the perspective of your false religion, which I reject and do not see as coming from God at all....Your religion sounds like a Christian form of Islam to me, and I don't hear God's voice over there either.

Man. Are you this far gone?? "A Christian form of Islam"?? Bizarre.

*I* am, WE are (those who read and heed the Bible and Gospel) are followers of Jesus Christ, of God's Word (The Bible). From Moses on through to Solomon and David and Jesus and The Apostles and Paul and...finally Jesus once again (through John in Revelation).

Whose Word are YOU heeding and following? Whose Book do you read?

We are not of the same religion. Our religions are not really all that close.

The boxes *I* check off are: Personal Savior: Jesus Christ. Son of God: Jesus Christ. Gospel? CHECK. Bible written as the Inspired Word of God. CHECK. Bible Prophets = God's Messengers: CHECK. Concede that we are ALL Sinners: CHECK. Through the sacrifice of God in the Flesh, Jesus Christ we are "saved", redeemed, exonerated from Indictments and Guilt. CHECK. Be guided by Wisdom of Bible: CHECK. Realize that even Believers CAN be deceived, habitually sin, commit evil, start making up our own spiritual laws, blaspheme the Holy Spirit, commit "Abominations", and lose Salvation: CHECK.

So what "religion" am I? And what are you??

Unfortunately for you, with all of that magnificent edifice of ethics, you've got a serial adulterer and philanderer at the head of your party, and you have to support and follow him or hand the whole government over the to Democrats, whom you condemn as demon spawn.

Seriously. Are you really going here?? Into politics already?

Ok. "Demon Spawn"??

Well, 0bama, the Clintons and Bernie (Democrats all) supported BABY MURDER. It's a political party that surrounded themselves with ONLY baby-murderers (Did Trump do that with HIS close associates that help run our gummint? OR even support Baby-Murder?)

Now tell me -- WHO supported and was the REAL "demon spawn"??

Men are men - I don't judge them for being men. You do.

As usual you make broad sweeping assertions...often out of context.

We ALL "judge" men -- their character, their degree of sincerity, benevolence and general goodness and honesty. "Judging" the destination of another's soul is another issue altogether.

But while we are on that subject, the RCC CONDEMNS ALL who do not believe that the Roman Catholic Church has THE Final Word on Salvation. NOT Jesus Christ. NOT God the Father.

I'll go my way, thank you. And so will all other Christians who believe much the same as I.

Frankly, I don't know what you actually believe...and oddly, neither do you seem to have a definite handle on it. I hope and pray your confusion and spiritual chaos is clarified.

Liberator  posted on  2018-08-22   16:15:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Liberator (#12)

Well, 0bama, the Clintons and Bernie (Democrats all) supported BABY MURDER. Now tell me -- WHO supported and was the REAL "demon spawn"??

As did, and does, the Republicans with the power to end it today.

The Republicans who GAVE us Roe, and the Republicans and Democrats who strongly support it.

Of course, if we're going to end Roe, we have to step up and create the public welfare infrastructure necessary to raise 1 million new poor people, mostly minorities, ever year, year on year. I'm ready to do that. You Republicans? You think that taxes are theft and that welfare is evil. So, if we actually let you have your way, a million poor babies will be born - and rapidly we'll be at Third World levels of poverty, starvation and desperation, because you won't spend the money to create the social welfare structures necessary to raise these kids, given that their parents are often derelicts. You'll rage at the immorality of the parents, and I will agree with that, but you will not honestly, or with the eyes of Christ, face the fact HEAD ON that if you stop the abortions today, the immoral idiots will remain so, and there will 1 million or more desperately poor babies born every year, and they all have to eat, be housed, be clothed, be educated - and their single mother parent will not do it. You will heap derision and scorn on her, and if you must do that in your anger, so be it. But you will ALSO, then start shouting the lie that taxation is theft and social welfare is theft. SO - these babies WILL be born, destitute, and the existing social welfare AND dwindling Church welfare networks will be overwhelmed, but you will be money-worshipping pharisaic prigs, lie in God's face and say that taxes and welfare are theft, and WHAT? Just let the babies DIE? Rely on magic to cause social supports to exist where none do? In the Third World the supports do not emerge, and they won't here either: the babies will die. And you will let them evilly calling taxes and social support theft, lying about what God said about wealth. You Protestants DISGUST me with your money- grubbing Pharisaic evil about money and welfare. That is what you will do. That's what so many of you here on this board have made SO CLEAR. You will NEVER EVER engage on the economic fact and ADMIT THE NECESSITY. You will prattle on endlessly about your morals, and taxes being theft, etc. It's why your religion is obviously false, and why we don't need your "Traditional Values". They are not from God, and they do not work. JESUS SAID to provide for the poor. And YHWH's state had a whole structure to do it. Now, we don't have to do it per the Sinai law, with a 10% tithe, etc., but we bloody well HAVE TO DO IT, and pretending that it will just spontaneously arise is a lie. It NEVER DID, anywhere, before, not ever. It exists BECAUSE states took it on, and government (Church government, which you roundly reject with your Traditional Protestant Morality) before that. No, we don't need your traditions anymore. They don't work. They're not honest. They're not really Godly. And if applied to abortion, they would leave a million new babies every year destitute. I'm not interested in hearing a repeat of lies and platitudes from an illiterate read of Jesus. Tell me how you're going to feed the babies when you kill Roe. Republicans CAN'T, because you have no intention of feeding the babies. You either have not thought it all the way through - which means you're unfit to lead. Or you have, and you don't CARE about the mass starvation that will ensue, because "taxes are theft" (which God said nowhere, ever). You're not going to acknowledge the fundamental linkage between Roe, babies, welfare and taxes. You're going to keep them separated, because you love the idea of money accumulation more than you love poor humans. That's the visible truth with you Republicans. It's why your "Christian values" cannot be taken seriously. On another thread, Stone was trying hard to call me a hypocrite because of what I do with my money. If you read the exchange, you will realize that under the facts, he really humiliated himself. I am perfectly consistent with my values in all things over which I have rational control. Where I am weak and admittedly a sinner is on matters of the heart over which I do not have control, where I can control my actions but not my most earnest desires. I stand before the Lord every day. He knows my flaws as well as I do. There's no hypocrisy in me - there is sin, and I acknowledge it. And it doesn't bear on this subject because it doesn't affect it. Other than the screaming Protestant Puritan who points out that I HAVE sin - a sin of hypocrisy (that I don't actually have - his facts are wrong), and that THEREFORE I am utterly neutralized on all I might say. That's how you people operate. That's your Traditional PRotestant Values and the way you try to enforce them. It's why you have lost. I'm as close to God as any of you, and I don't hear God in any of these accusations. But I DO see God in those babies, and in their bellies, and I want you to explain to me how you propose to feed, clothe, house and educate them without using taxes, since "taxes are theft" you wrongly state and make up something that is pretty much the opposite of what God said. You yell at me, I yell at you. We getting anywhere? Not as far as I can see.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-08-22   17:56:00 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Vicomte13 (#19)

You Protestants DISGUST me with your money- grubbing Pharisaic evil about money and welfare. That is what you will do. That's what so many of you here on this board have made SO CLEAR.

You will NEVER EVER engage on the economic fact and ADMIT THE NECESSITY. You will prattle on endlessly about your morals, and taxes being theft, etc. It's why your religion is obviously false, and why we don't need your "Traditional Values". They are not from God, and they do not work.

Wow. Ok.

Q: What "religion" was Jesus Christ?

Q2: Billy Graham. Did you consider his sermons on Salvation to be "prattling endlessly"?

I'm still digesting and analyzing your Series of Disgust & Blame, and life philosophies. You seem to have some great hostility toward what seem to be based more on projection of a personal nature. (Or maybe you were just having a bad day.)

Btw, if your interpretation of American "Traditional Values" is erroneous, then how do you account for a "good and great America"? (or again, is it your contention that America was never good OR great."?)

In the meantime you have totally misrepresented the definition and beliefs "Protestants". Unlike Catholicism, they are NOT a mono-chromatic singular Group-Think cabal. They don't kneel before one "Dear Leader", any hierarchy or "chain of command" at a supposed annex of God, or any man-made "Church" that's created an exclusive rules & regs checklist to Heavenly Entry.

Furthermore, IF as you seem to believe, The Bible, Scripture do NOT indeed provide all the instruction needed to know and eventually meet our Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ, then WHO or WHAT do YOU believe IS the desperately needed addendum (or source of Christian instruction & wisdom) for Salvation?

Liberator  posted on  2018-08-26   10:49:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 50.

#51. To: Liberator (#50)

Our perspectives on life are very different. They are no doubt ifnformed by our life experiences, and therefore not very open to argument. I understand where you are coming from; the converse is clearly not the case.

This is emblematic of where the country is. People are not listening to each other or trying to understand anymore, it’s all snarling, all the time. Which means that the outcome will be determined by political blunt force. I’m not too terribly concerned about that, because when I look at the correlation of forces, the things that are most important to me seem likely to prevail in the end.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-08-26 16:47:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Liberator (#50)

I will answer your second set of questions seriatim.

"Q: What "religion" was Jesus Christ?"

Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew. He brought special revelations from God to alter Judaism. Some Jews followed him. The bulk did not and still don't.

"Q2: Billy Graham. Did you consider his sermons on Salvation to be 'prattling endlessly'?"

I have never heard a sermon by the late Reverend Graham and am not in a position to opine on what he himself said. I understand from what I have been told that Graham was an ecumenist who did not judge Catholics for being Catholic, so I have always viewed him as one of the good guys, on account of those reports. I never actually heard him speak (other than a few lines excerpted in the news), and I never read anything he wrote, so I am in no position to comment on his actual sermons.

You: "I'm still digesting and analyzing your Series of Disgust & Blame, and life philosophies. You seem to have some great hostility toward what seem to be based more on projection of a personal nature. (Or maybe you were just having a bad day.)"

Tip O'Neill said that all politics is local. I will go further: people vote their OWN pocketbooks and their OWN lives - all politics is personal. The politics of the rich are personal - they do not favor tax breaks in the abstract, they lobby for very specific tax breaks and narrow regulations that favor THEM. Everybody else is the same way: our politics are based on our lives and philosophies. Your own politics are your projection of your own personality, obviously. Because this is universally true of every human being on the planet, it goes without saying and isn't much of an accusation. To accuse a man of having politics based on his personality is to accuse him of being human. Yes, I am human. So are you. Our politics differ because our life experiences differ, and we have come to different conclusions about things based on those experiences and based on what we value and what philosophies hold highest sway in our own court. Everybody is the same in this regard.

"Btw, if your interpretation of American 'Traditional Values' is erroneous,"

If.

"then how do you account for a 'good and great America'? (or again, is it your contention that America was never good OR great.?)"

Great means powerful. America is powerful and long has been. It also means wealthy and grand. America is those things. It's a huge country of great natural wealth, with a huge population of diverse talents. It's a great country.

"Good" is a different kettle of fish. If defined as Jesus defines good, then no one is good but God. Do you use Jesus' definition of good? If you do, then why do you call America "good"? If you don't, then tell me what definition you do use for the word "good", and then I will tell you whether or not I think America is, or ever has been, "good".

"In the meantime you have totally misrepresented the definition and beliefs 'Protestants'. Unlike Catholicism, they are NOT a mono-chromatic singular Group-Think cabal."

I know that I have lumped all of the Protestants together, and done so under pejorative language that demeans you all and calls you all scumbags. Do you know WHY I have done that (when I don't even believe it)? I have done it as a direct parallel reaction to your Protestant bullshit regarding Catholicism. Let's start with the "Mono-chromatic singular Group-Think cabal" description of Catholics you made above. Now let's add these gems from your pen:

"kneel before one 'Dear Leader'," - right, because we're NoRKs. Got it.

"a supposed annex of God, or any man-made 'Church' that's created an exclusive rules & regs checklist to Heavenly Entry." - Catholics don't actually believe what you write about us.

Anyway, you and several other Protestants here on this board authorize yourselves to be really ignorant and really nasty regarding the Catholic Church, and to direct your vituperation personally AT the most visible Catholic who posts here as a Catholic. It's obnoxious. The ignorance is equally obvious - a hostile caricature of what we believe, in abusive and judgmental terms. And you folks do it a LOT.

I am just as capable of writing in parallel about Protestants, just to be nasty and belittling, for the exact same reason that you guys do it. I won't bother trying to defend doing that: it's just nasty and destructive. I get pissed on. I get pissed. I piss back.

So when I say that the battle lines have been drawn, that further conversation is useless, and that the march of history will decide the outcome, that's the position that I've come to rest at. There is no meeting of the minds across the religious divide, or the political divide, or even the divide of basic manners, of what one may say to another person with whom one disagrees. This place is brutal because people with the dominant political beliefs here are brutal. Their beliefs are brutal, and they're brutal. There's no reasoning with them, and the only way to speak with them is to accept that you're just going to get attacked over and over and over again.

And then one comes to the realization: Wait a minute. My view of things is, in fact, carrying the day on almost everything. We already have the safety net in place that obeys Christ's mandate (imperfectly, but substantially). We've done that without reducing the country to real socialism. We have come to accept, and enforce by law, the complete equality of the races before the law, and the equality of the sexes. So in large part, I've already won. All that I have to do is hold the ground already taken, and shore up some of the weaker flanks. This is not hard to do - inertia and the weight of history carry it forward.

You - you want to overturn those things and effect revolutionary change. To do that, you're going to have to convince people. How convincing can you be when you wall yourself off in a tower of untouchable cultural and ideological icons and talisman? You're not appealing to anybody but people like yourself. And the number of people like yourself is dwindling, not because of me, but because of the policies put into place by the people you hail as leaders, or with their tacit approval.

As far as your final point: "Furthermore, IF as you seem to believe, The Bible, Scripture do NOT indeed provide all the instruction needed to know and eventually meet our Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ, then WHO or WHAT do YOU believe IS the desperately needed addendum (or source of Christian instruction & wisdom) for Salvation?"

I think what you need to know is in the Bible, but you have to read the Bible carefully and correctly. Read wrong and applied wrong, you can end up serving Satan by, for example, burning witches or justifying slavery by "the Mark of Ham", prohibiting marriages based on race, and any number of atrocities. Read wrong, you can call basic taxation "theft", and tattoos evil, and long hair on men disgraceful, and say that women should be silent. Jesus never said such things, and he's the one we're supposed to follow.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-08-27 14:06:32 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 50.

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