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Historical Title: 30 Years Ago Today, U.S. Shot Down a Passenger Plane Killing 290 Civilians and Covered It Up Free Thought Project – by Rachel Blevins On July 3, 1988, the United States killed 290 innocent Iranian civilians when it shot down Iran Air Flight 655—a tragic event that is not mentioned in history textbooks in school, and that is widely ignored in the context of current relations between the U.S. and Iran. The scheduled flight was traveling from Tehran to Dubai, and there were 66 children on board, all of whom were killed, as no passengers or crew members survived the attack. The plane was shot down by the USS Vincennes, which was operating within Iranian territorial waters. It targeted the large Airbus A300 and then insisted that crew members mistook it for an F-14 fighter jet, despite the obvious difference in size. At the time, Iraq and Iran were engaged in a bitter war that was declared by Saddam Hussein on Sept. 22, 1980. The United States’ support for Iraq in the conflict is notable because it would later go on to overthrow Hussein in 2003. The Iraq-Iran War was horrific, and in the eight years that it lasted, estimates claim that “at the very least half a million and possibly twice as many troops were killed on both sides, at least half a million became permanent invalids.” The cost of the war was around $228 billion and it resulted in more than $400 billion in damage. The United States’ involvement stemmed from its support for Iraq, at a time when the Reagan Administration considered Iran to be a bitter enemy, and so it instead chose to support Hussein, in order to influence the conflict. As reports have noted, the U.S. used Iraq as “its surrogate for policy in the Persian Gulf region,” as it prevented the United Nations from imposing economic sanctions on Iraq, and defended the use of chemical weapons on Iranian civilians. Then in 1988, the U.S. did the unthinkable by shooting down Iran Air Flight 655, which Iran claimed was a scheduled flight that was transmitting all of the necessary signals to show that it was a passenger plane and not a military aircraft. William C. Rogers III was the captain of the USS Vincennes during its first time at combat on that fateful day, and while he was controlling the U.S. Navy’s most expensive surface warship—which reportedly was powerful enough to shoot down up to 200 incoming missiles at once—he instead targeted a passenger plane. An investigation from Newsweek and ABC News referred to the tragedy as “the story of a naval fiasco, of an overeager captain, panicked crewmen, and the cover-up that followed,” which should never have happened, due to the fact that the U.S. was breaking international law with its presence in Iranian territorial waters when it shot down the plane:
To say that Captain Rogers was overeager in his quest to take down a target is an understatement, and reports later revealed that the “F-14 fighter jet” he claimed was descending was actually an Iranian airliner filled with innocent civilians that was ascending, and was well within the commercial air corridor. The cover-up was executed by U.S. military officials who failed to interview key witnesses, and then later lied to Congress about the location of key military warships at the time of the attack. As the investigation from Newsweek noted, the U.S. Navy had mostly gotten away with covering up the incident until the Iranian government filed a lawsuit which “forced Washington to admit, grudgingly, that the Vincennes was actually in Iranian waters—although Justice Department pleadings still claim the cruiser was forced there in self-defense.” The United States and Iran agreed to a settlement in the International Court of Justice in 1996. While the U.S. did recognize that “the aerial incident of 3 July 1988 as a terrible human tragedy and expressed deep regret over the loss of lives caused by the incident,” the U.S. was not required to admit legal liability or to formally apologize to Iran, and it later paid around $61.8 million—$213,103 per passenger—to the families of the victims. Instead of firing or charging the U.S. military officials who were responsible for shooting down Iran Air Flight 655, the U.S. awarded Capt. Will Rogers III and Lt. Cmdr. Scott E. Lustig with special commendation medals for their “meritorious service” on the USS Vincennes in a display that completely ignored the tragedy they created and the nearly 300 innocent civilians they killed. Post Comment Private Reply Ignore Thread Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest One year earlier, The USS Stark was hit by two Iraqi Exocet missiles. Thirty- seven United States Navy personnel were killed and twenty-one were injured. Those were dangerous times.
#2. To: Deckard (#0) (Edited) Title: 30 Years Ago Today, U.S. Shot Down a Passenger Plane Killing 290 Civilians and Covered It Up We didn't cover it up at all. It was covered extensively for weeks in American media. The attack on the USS Liberty did get covered up. This shooting down of an airliner, not at all.
#3. To: Deckard (#0) I was the Weapons Controil Officer on a sister ship of USS Stark in the Gulf in the interim between when the Stark was hit and the Vincennes shot down the jetliner. The Gulf was a goat rodeo during that time. Iran and Iraq were in full hot war with each other, the Iraqis were hosing off Exocets while the Iranians were loosing mines and driving around gunboats. We were escorting reflagged Kuwaiti oil tankers to keep them from getting blown up by both sides. The Gulf is a bathtub, and the airfield whence Iranian military flights came was dual purpose military and civilian. At the speed of jets, there was very little time to decide anything. I almost shot down a plane myself. The consequences of getting it wrong were calamitous in all directions. Ir WAS a tragedy, and the CO of the VIncennes WAS relieved of command for it. But I have a great deal of sympathy for that captain and crew. I took a different decision under similar circumstances (but without gunboats present), and did not fire. But it was a guess. Had I been wrong, my inaction would have killed my shipmates and possibly me. Yes, absolutely pay the victims families generously, but I cannot condemn my colleague over on Vincennes who pushed the button, nor the Captain who made the fatal call. When I made the opposite call in the middle of the night, I had already been in the Gulf for months. I knew what the zoo looked like. There had been alert after alert, alarm after alarm, attacks on ships, etc., but the battle space was “normalized”. VIncennes had only been there about two weeks when they faced their trial. They had not had time to acclimate.
#4. To: Tooconservative, Deckard, misterwhite (#2) We didn't cover it up at all. It was covered extensively for weeks in American media. Yes it was. I guess there was an "official" attempt to quash the embarrassing details of a big mistake. Understandably so because it was a PR disaster. There was no attempt by MSM to provide any "cushion", especially since The Gipper was still President. I'm trying to understand why THIS "30-YEARS AGO TODAY!" incident and reminder is suddenly of great concern? And why of ALL event from the past or present this specific retrospective/reminder needs to clutter our mind? Could it be more CW2 fodder...to incite the Left-Dem "Resistance" and remind them of who their "enemy" is?
#5. To: Vicomte13, redleghunter, sneakypete, GrandIsland, tpaine (#3) (Edited) When I made the opposite call in the middle of the night, I had already been in the Gulf for months. I knew what the zoo looked like. There had been alert after alert, alarm after alarm, attacks on ships, etc., but the battle space was “normalized”. VIncennes had only been there about two weeks when they faced their trial. They had not had time to acclimate. Thanks for an intimate perspective of what that situation is actually like; The MSM LOVES to play Monday Morning QB in these types of volatile, dangerous precarious situations. As you helped explain, the area was already a Hot Zone, paranoia and vigilance was already rife, and ANYONE could have made that kind of mistake. The Gulf is a bathtub, and the airfield whence Iranian military flights came was dual purpose military and civilian. At the speed of jets, there was very little time to decide anything. I almost shot down a plane myself. The consequences of getting it wrong were calamitous in all directions. Ir WAS a tragedy, and the CO of the VIncennes WAS relieved of command for it. But I have a great deal of sympathy for that captain and crew. And again, thanks for the perspective and honesty. And now *I* also have a great deal of sympathy for the captain and crew. They didn't do it out of spite or malice...or even blatant sloppiness. S**t just happens. Same as in the case of Friendly Fire by artillery and aircraft... Can you imagine had EVERY single FF case or mistaken calculations that turned out "badly" been scrutinized by MSM? We can't have LE or our military fearing mistakes; Hesitation = Death. The MSM doesn't care about that; They care only about sensationalizing and headlines for purely selfish/political reasons.
#6. To: Liberator (#5) (Edited) I particularly sympathize with that missile officer, the guy who actually pressed the button. He has to live with the memory of what he did every day, and while he knows that he didn’t intend what happened, he rides airplanes, and sees the women and children around him, and knows that the people on that plane, including its pilots, didn’t do anything wrong either. I know he is haunted by it because I’m haunted by it, and I took my finger off the button and didn’t push it. I have also agonized about my hesitation, about how I decided to guess in the last moments, to pause, to wait, as though some additional information was going to come. But no more was. The plane flew over in the dark, and we didn’t get hit by anything. If we had been hit by a missile or an iron bomb, I would have been “the guy”, the officer who failed in the clinch, the guy who didn’t do his duty and cost 100 of his shipmates their lives. I might have committed suicide from the guilt. The only way to “win” was to guess right. But the fact that it was a GUESS - well and truly a guess - relying on fate, the cosmos, God - JESUS! It’s a terrible thing that men are put in that position. I guess that’s why naval officers get paid the little bucks.
#7. To: Liberator (#4) I'm trying to understand why THIS "30-YEARS AGO TODAY!" incident and reminder is suddenly of great concern? Slavery happened 150 years ago and it's still being thrown in our faces.
#8. To: Deckard (#0) (Edited) A plane full of Mooslums. I'm just glad it wasn't a planeload of normal people from a peaceful nation. So how many Moo terrorists and terrorist larvae onboard did we accidentally kill as a bonus? Let's see THAT report.
#9. To: Deckard (#0) and there were 66 diaperhead children on board, all of whom were killed, 30 years later, not one passenger has screamed Allah Akbar... as they drive people over like Death Race 2000. Funny how that works. Sympathy is between Shit & syphilis in the dictionary. I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح #10. To: Deckard (#0) The cover-up was executed by U.S. military officials who failed to interview key witnesses, and then later lied to Congress about the location of key military warships at the time of the attack. HorseHillary! The way *I* remember it is that it was known immediately that the cowardly Captain had shot down a civilian airliner,and he was immediately relieved from his command and his ship was ordered to return to the US,where he was booted out of the Navy and lost his retirement. I personally think he should have done prison time,but that's just me. Instead of firing or charging the U.S. military officials who were responsible for shooting down Iran Air Flight 655, the U.S. awarded Capt. Will Rogers III and Lt. Cmdr. Scott E. Lustig with special commendation medals for their “meritorious service” on the USS Vincennes in a display that completely ignored the tragedy they created and the nearly 300 innocent civilians they killed. Free Thought Project Once again I am calling HorseHillary. The CAPTAIN of any US Naval ship at sea is PERSONALLY held responsible for what any officer under his command does while in temporary command of the ship,and he was pretty much immediately "fired" from the Navy. As for the LCDR,I suspect he was the officer in charge of the combat information center,and had to take the fall for not clearing identifying the airliner as an airliner,or for not refusing the order to fire on it. The Navy doesn't play games with this stuff unless the officer is a minority or a female,and used to not give them special allowances,either. I remember maybe 15 years ago the XO of a cruiser at sea opened the door to the Captains cabin to tell him something,and caught the Captain and the senior Chief of the ship having sex with one another. The ship was immediately recalled to it's home port,and both the Captain and the Chief were seen leaving it in civilian clothes because they KNEW they were out of the Navy. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments. #11. To: misterwhite (#1) One year earlier, The USS Stark was hit by two Iraqi Exocet missiles. Thirty- seven United States Navy personnel were killed and twenty-one were injured. True,but with the advanced radar and radio equipment they have aboard war ships,there is no excuse whatsoever for mistaking an airliner with a F-15 fighter. The Captain was a coward that flat-out panicked and committed manslaughter against all those civilians aboard that airliner. IMNSHO,he should have served prison time for that mistake. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments. #12. To: Liberator (#4) I'm trying to understand why THIS "30-YEARS AGO TODAY!" incident and reminder is suddenly of great concern? And why of ALL event from the past or present this specific retrospective/reminder needs to clutter our mind? Probably an effort to associate Trump with the guilt by the left. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments. #13. To: Vicomte13 (#6) I particularly sympathize with that missile officer, the guy who actually pressed the button. He has to live with the memory of what he did every day, and while he knows that he didn’t intend what happened, he rides airplanes, and sees the women and children around him, and knows that the people on that plane, including its pilots, didn’t do anything wrong either. Correct me if I am wrong,but it's the Captain that gives the order to fire,not the missile officer. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments. #14. To: sneakypete (#12) Probably an effort to associate Trump with the guilt by the left. Bingo. Dicktard has no shame. I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح #15. To: sneakypete (#13) At 2:30 in the morning the Captain has just been summoned out of sleep in his cabin and is clueless and disoriented. He is relying completely on the judgment of his TActical Action Officer and Weapons Control Officer to quickly tell him the situation and what needs to b done, and as, at jet speeds in a body of water that is only 30 miles across the decision time is literally seconds after the Captain arrives in Combat Information Center - if he arrives at all. That’s why the authority is delegated: all men must sleep, and at jet speeds in the Gulf there is no TIME. The TAO is senior to the WCO (who actually pushes the button), but on ships with small Officer complements, the need to have a TAO on duty at all times in a combat zone means that all of senior officers do their turn in the watch rotation, but some, such as the Combat Systems Officer, are very strong at the role, while others, such as the Chief Engineer, are weaker at it: it is not their primary area of expertise. When the TAO is not a combat systems Officer, he will rely very heavily on the judgment and experience of the WCO, if the WCO is Himself a combat systems expert. In the particular circumstance to which I am referring, the strongest WCO, the experienced Missile Officer, was paired with the weakest TAO, the Chief Engineer, specifically to have balance. The Captain Himself only got to CiC, in his underwear, within a minute before the decision to fire had to be made. Essentially the Captain deferred to the TAO because there was no time to develop situational awareness: the plane was detected at about 22 miles, and was closing at jet speed. The TAO has all of his information from the WCO and was relying on him. The principal of command is command by negation. The junior officer says what he is doing, and he does it unless the senior officer says “No”. In this case the WCO said “Firing Chaff”, and the TAO did not countermand, so he fired chaff. Then he prepared to fire a Surface-to-air missile by bringing it up on the missile launcher rail. He was not countermanded. Then he watched the radar closure of the target, as did the TAO, and the Captain, for the few short seconds after he came into combat. The WCO has his finger on the button and fire control locked on, tracking the target, but he did not make the firing recommendation, the TAO, relying on the WCO, did not independently order weapons fired, and the groggy Captain relied on his team.
#16. To: sneakypete, Deckard (#10) Instead of firing or charging the U.S. military officials who were responsible for shooting down Iran Air Flight 655, the U.S. awarded Capt. Will Rogers III and Lt. Cmdr. Scott E. Lustig with special commendation medals for their “meritorious service” on the USS Vincennes in a display that completely ignored the tragedy they created and the nearly 300 innocent civilians they killed. TFTP got one right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Vincennes_(CG-49)
Iran Air Flight 655 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_C._Rogers_III
Iran Air 655
#17. To: , Y'ALL (#0) While the U.S. did recognize that “the aerial incident of 3 July 1988 as a terrible human tragedy and expressed deep regret over the loss of lives caused by the incident,” the U.S. was not required to admit legal liability or to formally apologize to Iran, and it later paid around $61.8 million—$213,103 per passenger—to the families of the victims.
. ----------------------- The United States and Iran agreed to the settlement above in the International Court of Justice in 1996. Trans World Airlines Flight 800 (TWA 800) was a Boeing 747-100 that exploded and crashed into the Atlantic Ocean near East Moriches, New York, on July 17, 1996
---- Coincidence? -----
#18. To: tpaine (#17) No. Both cases were probably Navy accidents.
#19. To: Vicomte13 (#18) Coincidence? ----- First, an American mistake. -------- Then, a mistaken retaliation by Iranian navy forces?
#20. To: tpaine (#19) Then, a mistaken retaliation by Iranian navy forces?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800
Witness interviews The witnesses unanimously described something ascending to the plane and then the explosion.
#21. To: nolu chan, Y'ALL (#20) The witnesses unanimously described something ascending to the plane and then the explosion. I saw a network feed tape the night of the crash that showed that same streak of light ascending. --- It was taken from a fixed camera at a party, taping the festivities. The camera was pointed out to sea and showed the streak behind some partygoers who then rushed to the deck railing and pointed to it, and the explosion that folllwed. Never saw that tape again. --- ,By morning. the story had shifted to the internal explosion bit..
#22. To: tpaine (#21) I saw a network feed tape the night of the crash that showed that same streak of light ascending. Some of the eyewitnesses were surf-casters on the beach or fishermen on the water. My late brother lived on that side of the island near Moriches, was a surf-caster, and knew several of the witnesses. He related that he was told they saw something go up and meet the plane and go boom. It is more than curious how the witnesses were frozen out of the proceedings. As for the Iranian incident, I do not see how they accidentally mistook an ascending AirBus squawking on a civilian frequency as a descending F-14 Tom Cat squawking on a military-only frequency.
#23. To: tpaine (#19) Iranian Navy forces on Long Island? Nah. Accidental downing in US waters by the US Navy.
#24. To: nolu chan (#22) As for the Iranian incident, I do not see how they accidentally mistook an ascending AirBus squawking on a civilian frequency as a descending F-14 Tom Cat squawking on a military-only frequency. Do you want to know? I can explain it to you. It will take time to do, and the subject is raw and I'm not in a mood to debate it, but if you want to know I will tell you exactly how it happened, because I almost shot down the same flight a couple of months earlier under similar circumstances.
#25. To: nolu chan (#22) It is more than curious how the witnesses were frozen out of the proceedings. Not curious at all, if you've been following how the govt lies as long as I have.
#26. To: Vicomte13 (#24) I'm not in a mood to debate it, but if you want to know I will tell you exactly how it happened, Your explaination earlier on another thread was good enough for me... What do you think of my idea about f!ight 800,_-- that it was an Iranian retaliation?
#27. To: tpaine (#26) What do you think of my idea about f!ight 800,_-- that it was an Iranian retaliation? Could be. I think it was a US Navy accident.
#28. To: tpaine (#25) Not curious at all, if you've been following how the govt lies as long as I have. I'm pretty sure I experienced that up close and personal before you.
#29. To: nolu chan (#28)
My first experience was in December of 1957, when govt agents lied about some of my activities in the German black market. --- They tried to inflate my misdemeanors into felonies.. --- Of which I was acquitted.. Your experience?
#30. To: tpaine (#29) My first experience was in December of 1957.... My only experience in 1957 was grammar school.
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