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Creationism/Evolution
See other Creationism/Evolution Articles

Title: A Crucial Archaeological Dating Tool Is Wrong, And It Could Change History as We Know It
Source: [None]
URL Source: https://www.sciencealert.com/radioc ... egion-calibration-inaccuracies
Published: Jun 6, 2018
Author: MIKE MCRAE
Post Date: 2018-06-06 21:41:38 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 36034
Comments: 248

One of the most important dating tools used in archaeology may sometimes give misleading data, new study shows - and it could change whole historical timelines as a result.

The discrepancy is due to significant fluctuations in the amount of carbon- 14 in the atmosphere, and it could force scientists to rethink how A comparison of radiocarbon ages across the Northern Hemisphere suggests we might have been a little too hasty in assuming how the isotope - also known as radiocarbon - diffuses, potentially shaking up controversial conversations on the timing of events in history.

By measuring the amount of carbon-14 in the annual growth rings of trees grown in southern Jordan, researchers have found some dating calculations on events in the Middle East – or, more accurately, the Levant – could be out by nearly 20 years.

That may not seem like a huge deal, but in situations where a decade or two of discrepancy counts, radiocarbon dating could be misrepresenting important details.

The science behind the dating method is fairly straightforward: nitrogen atoms in the atmosphere hit with cosmic radiation are converted into a type of carbon with eight neutrons. This carbon – which has an atomic mass of 14 – has a chance of losing that neutron to turn into a garden variety carbon isotope over a predictable amount of time.

By comparing the two categories of carbon in organic remains, archaeologists can judge how recently the organism that left them last absorbed carbon-14 out of its environment.

Over millennia the level of carbon-14 in the atmosphere changes, meaning measurements need to be calibrated against a chart that takes the atmospheric concentration into account, such as INTCAL13.

The current version of INTCAL13 is based on historical data from North America and Europe, and has a fairly broad resolution over thousands of years. Levels do happen to spike on a local and seasonal basis with changes in the carbon cycle, but carbon-14 is presumed to diffuse fast enough to ignore these tiny bumps.

At least, that was the assumption until now.

"We know from atmospheric measurements over the last 50 years that radiocarbon levels vary through the year, and we also know that plants typically grow at different times in different parts of the Northern Hemisphere," says archaeologist Sturt Manning from Cornell University.

"So we wondered whether the radiocarbon levels relevant to dating organic material might also vary for different areas and whether this might affect archaeological dating."

The tree rings were samples of Jordanian juniper that grew in the southern region of the Middle East between 1610 and 1940 CE. By counting the tree rings, the team were able to create a reasonably accurate timeline of annual changes in carbon-14 uptake for those centuries.

Alarmingly, going by INTCAL13 alone, those same radiocarbon measurements would have provided dates that were older by an average of 19 years.

The difference most likely comes down to changes in regional climates, such as warming conditions. Extrapolating the findings back to earlier periods, archaeologists attempting to pinpoint Iron Age or Biblical events down to a few years would no doubt have a serious need to question their calibrations.

One controversial example is the dating of a single layer of archaeology at the Bronze and Iron Age city buried at Tel Rehov.

Just a few decades of difference could help resolve an ongoing debate over the extent of Solomon's biblical kingdom, making findings like these more than a minor quibble in a politically contested part of the world.

"Our work indicates that it's arguable their fundamental basis is faulty – they are using a calibration curve that is not accurate for this region," says Manning.

Collecting additional data from different geographical areas and taking a closer look at historical climate trends could help sharpen calibration techniques, especially in hotly debated regions.

For the time being, archaeologists covering history in the Levant are being advised to take their dates with a pinch of salt.

This research was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.they use ancient organic remains to measure the passing of time.

www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/05/23/1719420115

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#7. To: A K A Stone (#0)

The tree rings were samples of Jordanian juniper that grew in the southern region of the Middle East between 1610 and 1940 CE. By counting the tree rings, the team were able to create a reasonably accurate timeline of annual changes in carbon-14 uptake for those centuries.

Alarmingly, going by INTCAL13 alone, those same radiocarbon measurements would have provided dates that were older by an average of 19 years.

The difference most likely comes down to changes in regional climates, such as warming conditions. Extrapolating the findings back to earlier periods, archaeologists attempting to pinpoint Iron Age or Biblical events down to a few years would no doubt have a serious need to question their calibrations.

One controversial example is the dating of a single layer of archaeology at the Bronze and Iron Age city buried at Tel Rehov.

Just a few decades of difference could help resolve an ongoing debate over the extent of Solomon's biblical kingdom, making findings like these more than a minor quibble in a politically contested part of the world.

Hmmm...I see their assertions here but was unaware that anyone considered 19 years margin of error in carbon dating to be significant. No one ever considered it that accurate to begin with.

Nor do they detail how they think a difference of 19 years would give us more meaningful info about the size and distribution of Solomon's kingdom. Or why that would have a modern geopolitical impact.

Maybe there is something to this academic dispute but the article hasn't fleshed it out for the reader.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-06-07   0:26:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Tooconservative (#7)

Hmmm...I see their assertions here but was unaware that anyone considered 19 years margin of error in carbon dating to be significant.

It's not even an eye blink when related to the age of the planet.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-06-07   8:37:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: sneakypete (#15)

It's not even an eye blink when related to the age of the planet.

Sure but science doesn't date the earth's age by carbon dating. They use other means of providing an estimate.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-06-07   9:56:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Tooconservative (#20)

Sure but science doesn't date the earth's age by carbon dating. They use other means of providing an estimate.

The means used rely on radioactive decay, which is a function of "c".

There are two things to note.

First: radioactive decay rates are affected by the strength of solar output. We don't know why, but it has been observed in some experiments.

Second:

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-07   13:37:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Vicomte13 (#21)

Scientific American:

It was not until 1926, when (under the influence of Arthur Holmes, whose name recurs throughout this story) the National Academy of Sciences adopted the radiometric timescale, that we can regard the controversy as finally resolved. Critical to this resolution were improved methods of dating, which incorporated advances in mass spectrometry, sampling and laser heating. The resulting knowledge has led to the current understanding that the earth is 4.55 billion years old.

That takes us to the end of this series of papers but not to the end of the story. As with so many good scientific puzzles, the question of the age of the earth resolves itself on more rigorous examination into distinct components. Do we mean the age of the solar system, or of the earth as a planet within it, or of the earth-moon system, or the time since formation of the earth’s metallic core, or the time since formation of the earliest solid crust? Such questions remain under active investigation, using as clues variations in isotopic distribution, or anomalies in mineral composition, that tell the story of the formation and decay of long-vanished short-lived isotopes. Isotopic ratios between stable isotopes both on the earth and in meteorites are coming under increasingly close scrutiny, to see what they can tell us about the ultimate sources of the very atoms that make up our planet. We can look forward to new answers—and new questions. That’s how science works.

Carbon dating plays little if any role in current estimates of the earth's age. It's too flawed.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-06-07   13:46:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Tooconservative (#22)

Carbon dating plays little if any role in current estimates of the earth's age. It's too flawed.

It's not just that. All of the Carbon 14 is gone after 50,000 years, so you can't use it to tell the difference between 51,000 and 500 million years old: zero is zero.

Carbon dating no longer provides any information before 48,000 BC or so.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-07   23:26:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Vicomte13 (#34)

It's not just that. All of the Carbon 14 is gone after 50,000 years, so you can't use it to tell the difference between 51,000 and 500 million years old: zero is zero.

Carbon dating no longer provides any information before 48,000 BC or so.

I'm not sure why you keep repeating this since it is not true. It is not zero C14 after 50,000 years at all.

We have methods of carbon dating that go back as far as 75,000 years and we could develop it further if we wanted to. We just don't have any real need to do so as we have other isotopes to measure and other dating methods we use.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-06-08   3:08:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Tooconservative (#36)

I'm not sure why you keep repeating this since it is not true. It is not zero C14 after 50,000 years at all.

We have methods of carbon dating that go back as far as 75,000 years and we could develop it further if we wanted to. We just don't have any real need to do so as we have other isotopes to measure and other dating methods we use.

I keep repeating it because it is true.

Carbon-14 has a half life of 5730 years, under presently observed conditions, and there isn't all that much of it to begin with. In living tissue, there is about 1 C-14 atom for every trillion Carbon atoms. One part per trillion, 1 C-14 atom for every 10 to the 12th Carbon atoms. That's a low concentration.

Let's consider a human body. By weight, carbon makes up only 18.5% of the human body. So a 150 pound living man is composed of 27.75 pounds of carbon, 99% of that carbon is C-12, 1% is C-14. So, 2.775 times 10 to the negative 11th power pounds of C-14 atoms are in the living man, which is to say that there are 623,879,200,000,000,000 C-14 atoms in a living 150 pound man. Once he stops breathing and stops eating, there is no more C-14 being added.

The half life is 5730. So, in 5730 years there will be 311,939,600,000,000,000 C-14 atoms left in his remains. Of course, if there are any remains, they will have been diluted by whatever is preserving them.

In 11,460 years there will be 155,969,800,000,000,000 C-14 atoms left

In 17,190 years there will be 77,984,900,000,000,000 C-14s left.

In 22,920 years, there will be 38,992,450,000,000,000 C-14s left.

In 28,650 years there will be 19,496,225,000,000,000 C-14s left.

In 34,380 years there will be 9,748,112,500,000,000 C-14s left.

In 40,110 years there will be 4,874,056,250,000,000 C-14s left.

In 45,840 years there will be 2,437,028,125,000,000 C-14s left.

In 51,610 years there will be 1,218,514,962,500,000 C-14s left.

That isn't much left from the original same, less than two-tenths of one percent.

And of course this assumes that one is carbon dating a whole, intact human corpse, a 150 pound sample. Radiocarbon dating is not done on 150 pound samples. The machines can't hold anything like that. The sample sizes used are 100 GRAM samples - THAT is what fits into the machines.

So, let's take the remains of that 150 pound man and look at the actual sample size we can test. 150 pounds is 67200 grams. We're only going to be able to test .0014880952380952 of that sample.

So, at the 51,610 year point, there are only 1,813,266,313,244 C-14 atoms left in the testable sample. That's small, but detectable.

Go one cycle further, to 57,340 years, and the number of atoms in the total sample drops to the 902,633,156,622 range, which is quite a bit smaller than the US budget in dollars, and at the bare limits of our ability to detect.

Using very long test times and super-sensitive equipment, that have been able to manage to extend Carbon-14 testing to 75,000 years. No farther.

It is not hard to see why. At 63,070 years you've only got 453 billion C-14s left in your whole sample.

At 68,800 years, you're down to 226.6 billion C-14s left.

And at 74,530 years, you're down to 113.3 billion atoms, in a sample size of 5 septillion atoms, which is to say 1 part in 24 trillion. Our technology is not capable of reliably sorting that out.

You can see, then, why C-14 cannot possibly be used to date dinosaurs. The last dinosaurs are said to have gone extinct 65 million years ago.

Let's keep running our math.

At 80,260 years, there are 56.65 billion C-14s left in our sample.

At 85,990 years there are 28.325 billion C-14s left in our sample. We're already well below our threshold of detection, but they are there, at least theoretically. We cannot confirm this by direct observation, but we have to assume it is so.

At 91,720 years where are 14.16 billion atoms left.

At 97,450 years, 7.08 billion.

At 103,180 years, 3.54 billion.

Go back 57,300 more years, to 160,480 years, and you're down to 3.45 MILLION C-14s left. You're trying to find a single marked grain of sand on the California cost.

Go back another 57,300 years, and you have 3376 Carbon 14 atoms left in your sample.

Go back yet another 57,300 years, and there are 4 Carbon 14 atoms left. Four. How far back are we now? 275,080 years.

Go back 5730 more years, and there are 2 C-14 Atoms left. Another 5730 years, and there is 1 left. By 291,570 years back, there are no C-14 atoms left in the sample. Zero. Null.

Long before that point you passed any possibility of detection.

That is why I "keep saying" that radio-carbon dating cannot be used to date the dinosaurs.

There is NO Carbon 15 left from 65 million years ago. None. THEORETICALLY, in the whole world, there are a few atoms of it, maybe. To detect them would be like trying to find a aingle marked grain of sand randomly scattered on one of the world's beaches.

Did I need to go through all of that? Yes, I think I did. There is a pugnacious attitude around here about many things. Sometimes you have to brute force down to zero to demonstrate the point. I will now reiterate it explicitly:

ASSUMING that rates of radioactive decay are constant, and ASSUMING that the dinosaurs died out some 65 million years ago, it is categorically impossible to use C-14 to date dinosaur bones. 65 million year old Carbon 14 does not exist. At all. It has all decayed. Only theoretically is there some left. This is not provable, because it is impossible to design a machine that is so sensitive. In any case, Carbon-14 us COMPLETELY useless for dating dinosaurs. There is NO USE WHATSOEVER for C-14. It isn't simply "impracticable", it is impossible, full stop.

At 60 iterations, 343,800 years, the last C-14 atom in that 150 pound man's remains broke down. There is none left.

Coal is said to be ancient vegetation. Assuming that is true, there is a reason it is used as the inert background substrate for C-14 dating. There is no detectable Carbon-14 in it. This is not because our machines are not sensitive enough. It is because all of the C-14 has decayed. That's why it is completely useless for dating dinosaur bones.

And that's why I keep saying so: because it IS so. And also because the resistance here has been a little too fierce given the subject matter.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-08   11:31:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Vicomte13 (#39)

Did I need to go through all of that? Yes, I think I did.

Nope.

And that's why I keep saying so: because it IS so.

But it is not true, no matter how many keystrokes you expend.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-06-08   13:28:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Tooconservative (#40) (Edited)

But it is not true, no matter how many keystrokes you expend.

Yes, it is true. It is impossible to date anything a few million years old with Carbon-14, because there's no Carbon-14 left in it. It has all decayed away. It isn't there.

Back past 50,000 years; 75,000 years with herculean efforts at the edge of detectability, we do not have the equipment to detect it.

But no equipment in the world can detect Carbon-14 in a dinosaur, because the dinosaurs went extinct 65 million years ago, and there is no Carbon-14 left on earth from that long ago, it has entirely decayed.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-08   13:30:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Vicomte13 (#41)

...dinosaurs went extinct 65 million years ago...

The agenda-driven Fake Science Cult/Communitah based on wishful thinking has been manipulating sandbagging and striking evidence to the contrary. It is impossible for blood cells to survive "millions" of years, never mind several thousands.

THIS SHOULD have been front page news but wasn't:

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-08   13:51:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Liberator (#43)

It is impossible for blood cells to survive "millions" of years, never mind several thousands.

This is a really interesting point.

It is a serious tremor that cracks the solidity of a theory.

It's an aspect of the subject that creates its own logic tree.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-08   17:17:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Vicomte13 (#48)

It is a serious tremor that cracks the solidity of a theory.

It's an aspect of the subject that creates its own logic tree.

It does crack that theory...Maybe even smashes it to bits. A Game-Changer.

That "aspect of the subject" and "logic" lead straight to only one conclusion: The Great Flood was likely way it all went down in Genesis...and...occurred only several *thousands* of years ago.

It's noted that dinosaurs, historically referred to in several ancient civilization texts as "great lizards" and "dragons" (also depicted in ancient paintings in both the Old and New World) indeed existed *at the same time as man*.

This notion of course presents a dilemma for the high priests of science and its True Believers, shattering the Theory/Religion of Evolution at its foundation. It also forces the intellectually honest to re-calibrate and re-assess both "History" and Science" as taught in the past century and a half.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-08   18:39:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Liberator (#52)

It does crack that theory...Maybe even smashes it to bits. A Game-Changer.

That "aspect of the subject" and "logic" lead straight to only one conclusion: The Great Flood was likely way it all went down in Genesis...and...occurred only several *thousands* of years ago.

It's noted that dinosaurs, historically referred to in several ancient civilization texts as "great lizards" and "dragons" (also depicted in ancient paintings in both the Old and New World) indeed existed *at the same time as man*.

This notion of course presents a dilemma for the high priests of science and its True Believers, shattering the Theory/Religion of Evolution at its foundation. It also forces the intellectually honest to re-calibrate and re-assess both "History" and Science" as taught in the past century and a half.

It allows the possibility of those things, yes.

On the other hand, it also opens the possibility that not all of the dinosaurs went extinct after the great meteor strike of 65 million years ago, that pockets of them remained alive, and continued to populate parts of the earth afterwards. Certainly other animals alive at the time still exist, and there is no particular reason to believe that EVERY dinosaur EVERYWHERE died off as the result of the meteor strike. Crocodiles and Alligators survived, why not some dinosaurs, here and there?

Certainly some large mammals that survived the eons eventually perished as the conditions continued to change. Example: wooly mammoths and sabre- toothed tigers. They were not hunted to extinction by man. Hell, men today with planes, trucks and high-powered rifles haven't completely wiped out the elephants or the rhinos. Men with spears simply did not have the numbers or skill to wipe out a major elephant species.

The mammoths died out because of climate change. The identical thing could well be true of the dinosaurs.

Now, of course, this is heresy to those who have established that the dinosaurs "must" have ALL perished 65 million years ago. but there is no real imperative for that to be true. SOME may have lingered on here and there - turtles and crocks made it. There MIGHT still be something looking like armored fish of old deep down into the abysses of the sea.

If we've got blood cells and connective tissue from inside dinosaur bones - and we do - that doesn't perforce mean that there was no evolution, or a worldwide flood. It could just mean that the meteor didn't get ALL the dinosaurs, that some soldiered on - indeed, that some of the dragon stories of legend are real encounters between humans and dinosaurs.

Certainly the intact cells from within dinosaur bones would tend to indicate that.

Of course, then again, the inside of bones that were encased in mud don't have much oxygen, and without the oxygen they may not have decayed. Certainly we have feathers and scales and other things that otherwise decay contained in amber, because of the hypoxic nature thereof.

Who can say?

All of these things are possible. For my part, they don't engage my emotions, because I'm not a sola scripturalist, so the truth or mere poetic nature of Genesis 1 doesn't bear on my religious beliefs pretty much at all.

I would say that my basic ASSUMPTION is that God made the world, evolution is how he did it, and these dinosaur soft tissues we have means that all of the dinosaurs didn't die out 65 million years ago, that pockets of them survived, and that we have soft tissue because those particular dinosaurs died out more recently. This would fit the evidence as I see it. None of it has any bearing on what I think about God. It does mean that the Bible isn't a scientific text, but I never assumed it was.

In a similar vein, not being a Sola Scripturalist, I think the only really authoritative parts of the Bible - the LAW as it were - are Jesus' commandments - what to do and what not to do. And I think that obedience or departure from those is what destermines the status during stages of the afterlife. I do think that what happens in the afterlife was revealed, by Jesus, and that there are elements of what he said that are corroborated by Near Death Experiences.

Science and religion don't conflict in my mind. Of course Genesis 1 and Standard Theory conflict, but Genesis 1 is sacred poetry, not a science text.

That's how I look at it.

Your religious beliefs are differently configured, and anything that disturbs the absolute literal truth of any part of the Scriptures, as you read them, causes the whole thing to fall apart.

The Scriptures are not the basis for my knowledge of God. They add some detail about what God wants, mainly through Jesus.

Our religions are different. Yours does not bother me. I understand why you believe what you do. As long as you don't kill people I'm content to share the earth with you in peace, and we'll find out the details in the end, I reckon.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-08   18:58:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Vicomte13 (#53)

On the other hand, it also opens the possibility that not all of the dinosaurs went extinct after the great meteor strike of 65 million years ag

How were dinosaurs running around before Adam and Eve?

Was there death before sin?

Why do you believe the Earth is millions of years old?

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-09   7:59:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: A K A Stone, Vicomte13 (#57)

How were dinosaurs running around before Adam and Eve?

Was there death before sin?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, Vic...

It seems Vic is on record here as considering Genesis as high-minded, perhaps even divinely-inspired "poetry" and not the Word of God.

Ergo that would mean God's Timeline as narrated in Genesis (as well as "sin" and "death" not being in-effect until after Adam and Eve's Fall) would not be taken literally.

For what it's worth, Jesus Himself pretty heavily quoted Genesis.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-09   11:57:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: Liberator (#66)

It seems Vic is on record here as considering Genesis as high-minded, perhaps even divinely-inspired "poetry" and not the Word of God.

Poetry was my term, not Vic's, though he's free to agree with me, of course.

Ergo that would mean God's Timeline as narrated in Genesis (as well as "sin" and "death" not being in-effect until after Adam and Eve's Fall) would not be taken literally.

Though it's a claim that the Genesis timeline is "God's Timeline" as opposed to a timeline of man that is purported to be God's.

If I were to nitpick about death existing before sin, the human body experiences cell death as a normal function of healthy human living. Hair, for example is dead tissue. If no death existed before sin, would this mean that before the fall, Adam and Eve either had no hair, or if they did, it was living tissue?

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-09   12:56:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Pinguinite, A K A Stone, Liberator (#74)

To even have the discussion, we'd have to go through the definitions of God, life, spirit, sin, death and inspiration. That's just for starters.

And because what I think departs from various orthodoxies on each point, I get a lot of abuse when I write on religion. When I speak of my own direct experiences with God, I get ridicule and scorn, that continues on afterwards.

Essentially, I don't believe in the traditional Christian religion, or any other religion, and I don't believe in "Science", practiced as a modern religion either. The factual and logical errors of each are obvious to me, and they rule out belief. I have talked with God many times, and experienced major miracles, so I know that God is as a matter of empirical fact, such that I have to always include the reality of God in all scientific analysis or I cease to be a real scientist.

Unlike many, I do not denigrate the ancient texts, and I think they were inspired by God. But I don't think "inspired" means what traditionalists think it means.

Who really wants to know what I believe? Probably nobody, really. What you want is the opportunity to draw me into a discussion of religion, so you can hector me about the things you believe that I don't. What good is that?

Honestly, what is the point? There is nothing more useless in this world than another man's religion. Yours are useless to me, and my own is useless to you. So why argue about it? If you really want to know my religious beliefs, we can take it to another thread and discuss it there. I certainly don't care what you believe, in precisely the same way I don't care what sex turns you on. Your religion is of no interest or use to me. I'm pretty sure the same is true in the other direction. If I'm wrong and you really, truly want to know what I believe and why, then start a thread with that as the topic, and I will go there and tell you. I'm not holding my breath. Nobody cares. Why would they?

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-09   18:04:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: Vicomte13 (#76)

Essentially, I don't believe in the traditional Christian religion

Ok. That is all I need to know. You don't claim to be a follower of Christ or a Christian as it is called.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-09   18:39:28 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: A K A Stone (#77)

You simply cannot get the truth straight. I follow Christ. I do not follow him in the way that you do. I do not believe in the same hierarchy of authorities that you do. I do not have the same religion you do. I follow Christ.

You follow Christ in a different way. And the way you do it looks to my eyes a lot like not following Christ at all.

Your way is just A way. It is not THE way. Even in traditional Christianity, your way is a fringe element.

The way I follow Christ is adequately respectful of a certain set of norms for me to not be thrown out of the Catholic Church. My actual beliefs about many things differ somewhat from Catholicism, but that doesn't matter to the rest of Catholics.

To follow Christ, in my estimation, means to carefully read exactly what he said, to figure out what he meant by it, and then to do what he said. That is what it means: it means to keep his commandments. It does NOT mean to elevate a book to the status of God. It does NOT mean to insist on some faith alone versus works doctrine. It does NOT mean asserting all sorts of thing about a Trinity that Christ never taught. It doesn't even mean WORSHIPPING Christ. It means doing what Jesus said. Full stop. That's "following Christ". Whatever else you want to add to it is your religion. Catholics add a lot. I smile at it, perhaps genuflect to it, but don't confuse it with following Christ.

The thing that strikes me most about your particular religion is that you DON'T follow Christ. You assert a bunch of things that are the opposite of Christ, but you very much worship that book of yours.

And you just can't bear to speak directly to what I say. You always have to add a lie to it, to assert some additional thing I did not say and don't believe. You are not able to directly address the things I say. You always erect a straw man alongside it and hit that. Which means that you write vexatious things, but you're not really talking to ME at all, you're attacking a dummy that you've set up and CALLED me, but that isn't actually what I said or believe.

To me, it's really quite dishonest of you to do this, but you love to call ME the liar. It's striking, really, how far off the path that Christ laid out that you are. That's your religion, and your religion does not to my eyes appear to be about following Christ. It's about setting up a dummy of Christ who is not very much like Christ, and then worshipping the dummy instead of listening to and following the man.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-09   20:10:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: Vicomte13 (#78)

The thing that strikes me most about your particular religion is that you DON'T follow Christ

Says the man who prays to a dead sinner. And ignores scripture and follows the tradition of a man (men)that has stolen Gods title of "holy father". MY shortcomings doesn't excuse your ignoring the plain teachings of the scriptures. Or your blasphemous words saying the bible isn't the whole word of I'd without error.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-09   22:10:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: A K A Stone (#80)

MY shortcomings doesn't excuse your ignoring the plain teachings of the scriptures.

I don't. I simply do not believe that the Scriptures are the final authority or revelation to mankind. The part of the Scriptures that matters is what Jesus said.

The bible is not the complete word of God and is not without error. It never says that it is complete or without error. Your religion has made that up, and you believe it. That is called idolatry. Your view of the Bible turns it into an idol.

My primary problem with you is that you profess Christ but you totally ignore him with regards to the poor. My secondary problem is the whole self-rightoeusness business.

You can believe as you believe.

God pulled me out of a lake and raised two animals from the dead in my presence, and talks to me sometimes. I'm sticking with him.

You don't offer anything true, just superstition, idolatry, harsh politics and anger.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-10   8:12:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: Vicomte13 (#83)

The bible is not the complete word of God and is not without error.

I guess that depends on defining the word of notion of "complete". And exactly what might fulfill its completion.

If you believe there are errors in scripture, can you specify which verses they are? Are they verses that could be construed as ambiguous?

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-11   15:27:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: Liberator (#122)

If you believe there are errors in scripture, can you specify which verses they are?

You directed to Vic, but I'll answer. Passages that state God gets angry & jealous. To me it's wholly contradictory to other passages about him being all wise, all powerful, all knowing, all loving etc.

I see those passages as "anthropomorphism", which is a literary technique of ascribing human characteristics to a non-human entity, in this case, God. When a respected leader tells his people that God is angry, it gives that leader great power to tell his people they must do some bidding, as people will act out of fear. So there is a very human political motive for ancients to propagate the idea that God can get angry, and it was certainly done in many, if not most or all other cultures throughout history.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-13   1:54:02 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: Pinguinite, Vicomte13 (#129)

(If you believe there are errors in scripture, can you specify which verses they are? )
You directed to Vic, but I'll answer. Passages that state God gets angry & jealous. To me it's wholly contradictory to other passages about him being all wise, all powerful, all knowing, all loving etc.

I see those passages as "anthropomorphism", which is a literary technique of ascribing human characteristics to a non-human entity, in this case, God.

I don't subscribe to the "contradictory" notion of God's "anger and jealousy"; It seems you've explained why Scripture describes this technique in your following quote of, "anthropomorphism".

Doesn't any parent run that same gamut of emotion as they watch their child grow up? After all, we are just extensions of God the Father. We may even know beforehand that our child WILL fall, but the child must learn. Then we pick him up.

God's "anger" and "jealousy"-- again, in human relate-able terms. Maybe this analogy works for you; Say your child has joined an evil, kooky cult and appears to be embracing it. One emotion might be repulsiveness, others anger, disappointment, and..."jealously" in the sense that you can't believe he/she would choose cultist-enslavement over freedom.

Back to the language used in scripture -- Why wouldn't God explain language so we could understand it in "human" context? Somewhat analogous -- Germans and French both have words for things that don't exists for the English equivalent and vice versa.

When a respected leader tells his people that God is angry, it gives that leader great power to tell his people they must do some bidding, as people will act out of fear. So there is a very human political motive for ancients to propagate the idea that God can get angry, and it was certainly done in many, if not most or all other cultures throughout history.

I'm not sure how your interpretation of an interpretation is construed as scriptural "error".

There IS such a thing as "righteous anger", no doubt. As far as any "bidding" that's done -- I assume from your perspective, "in the name of God" -- you're going to have to be more specific about just what "political motive" and action your refer to.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-13   11:26:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: Liberator, Vicomte13 (#130)

God's "anger" and "jealousy"-- again, in human relate-able terms. Maybe this analogy works for you; Say your child has joined an evil, kooky cult and appears to be embracing it. One emotion might be repulsiveness, others anger, disappointment, and..."jealously" in the sense that you can't believe he/she would choose cultist-enslavement over freedom.

But God is all knowing, so he would believe it, and even anticipate it. So why would it result in divine "anger".

Back to the language used in scripture -- Why wouldn't God explain language so we could understand it in "human" context? Somewhat analogous -- Germans and French both have words for things that don't exists for the English equivalent and vice versa.

Ah, but is not the Bible "truth"? Are you suggesting the Bible might convey an impression about God that is not, in fact, true, but somewhat short of that just so that we would "understand" something even though that which we then think we understand is, in fact, a misunderstanding?

If you take the position that the English language, due to it's limitations, cannot possibly capture the meaning of God's divine Word, then what you basically end up doing is aligning with Vicombe's position, probably, that the Bible is, to an extent, imperfect.

There IS such a thing as "righteous anger", no doubt. As far as any "bidding" that's done -- I assume from your perspective, "in the name of God" -- you're going to have to be more specific about just what "political motive" and action your refer to.

Political motives? That's easy. When you put the literal fear of God into a population, and are able to cast yourself as a spokesman for God, then you have strong control over those people. I understand it was Constantine that formally declared reincarnation a heresy. Certainly if people believe they only have one life to live, then they are much easier to control, as no one wants to go to hell for all eternity for disobeying the church, which became a partner to the state.

Well, you may find this notion of God capable of being angry (even "wrathful") and jealous reasonable in spite of His also having infinite wisdom, love & knowledge, but I do not, and it's one element that, for me, favors the Newton model of at least the Old Testament depiction of God, if not the contemporary Christian depiction.

Truly, under the Newton model, God has, in my opinion (if not outright objectively speaking) complete majesty. He has all of the wonders that Christianity claims he has, but without any of the shortcomings such as being capable of anger and jealousy. God is better complemented and revered as a higher standard than in the Judeo-Christian model.

It's my contention that the old testament is a collection of ancient writings that, rather than being divinely inspired, are instead a collection of highly refined writings that are ascribed divine origin status. That ascription has taken on a life of its own in the form of both the Jewish faith as well as, of course, the Christian faith which is an extension of it. Under the Newton model, everything works perfectly, frankly, in terms of divine love and patience, and our purpose. Christianity simply doesn't work perfectly, which which I'm sure you'll strongly disagree. But the bottom line is, under the Newton model, no one is left behind with the possible exception of those who choose to be left behind. And under Christianity, people can go to hell for all eternity because someone never shared the gospel with them when they had the chance to. On it's face.... that's a point scored for the Newton model.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-13   12:18:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: Pinguinite (#133)

But God is all knowing, so he would believe it, and even anticipate it. So why would it result in divine "anger".

I'm obviously using *my* interpretation of language and sense of emotion as a descriptor. His "divine anger" -- the best I could describe it again is as a parent who sees a child willfully following a self-destructive course instead of a "sensible" course, despite *our* doing everything we could to make that course easy, safer, most rewarding, and the obvious best option.

Yes, even though God has divine knowledge of what *will* happen, He can, has, and will continue to be "angry" with mankind for the eventual willful self-destruction. *We should be reminded that *some* things shall remain "mysteries" according to Scripture, so mankind is NEVER going to receive nor find ALL the answers to this Universe OR of God's Purpose.

Ah, but is not the Bible "truth"? Are you suggesting the Bible might convey an impression about God that is not, in fact, true, but somewhat short of that just so that we would "understand" something even though that which we then think we understand is, in fact, a misunderstanding?

If you take the position that the English language, due to it's limitations, cannot possibly capture the meaning of God's divine Word, then what you basically end up doing is aligning with Vicombe's position, probably, that the Bible is, to an extent, imperfect.

I'd submit that many have and do indeed understand what God is saying. For them, The Word IS "perfect". It's a matter of tuning into the "right" frequency. This may explain why others "read the Bible cover-to-cover" yet still don't or can't understand it (or mis-understand) what God is saying. If one's heart and spirit isn't "open" to accepting the frequency at which God speaks/communicates, then no, one will not understand Him. (some DO so partially, then grow in understanding as the walls/blockage dissolve.)

Ping, I gave you *my* off the cuff interpretation/explanation for the limitations of some who have problems grasping The Almighty's meanings or conveyances.

Political motives? That's easy.

When you put the literal fear of God into a population, and are able to cast yourself as a spokesman for God, then you have strong control over those people. I understand it was Constantine that formally declared reincarnation a heresy. Certainly if people believe they only have one life to live, then they are much easier to control, as no one wants to go to hell for all eternity for disobeying the church, which became a partner to the state.

Is conveying the Word of God as a disciple/"spokesman" a matter of "leadership" OR coercion (as you infer)? Faith in God and heeding His Laws are all still a matter of Free Will, are they not? Jesus Christ and his disciples never coerced others into being Believers. And neither do legit "spokesmen" or Pastors who spread the Gospel and remind and lead the flock down the "narrow road".

With respect to "one life to live" (in this current physical shell anyway), is a notion and physical state is exactly what the entire Judeo-Christian faith is predicated upon, based on God's own Word. Whether you or anyone takes that word and authority to heart is a matter of Free Will -- yours, mine, everyone's.

With respect to Constantine...NOT who I'd consider a "Christian" leader.

"Fear of the Lord" is a GOOD thing. It is the start of all "wisdom".

Well, you may find this notion of God capable of being angry (even "wrathful") and jealous reasonable in spite of His also having infinite wisdom, love & knowledge, but I do not, and it's one element that, for me, favors the Newton model of at least the Old Testament depiction of God, if not the contemporary Christian depiction.

All a matter of personal opinion of course; yours and my Free Will to seek the truth then choose our respective path. I fully understand and accept the context of The Almighty's language and find no inconsistencies or weakness in his conveyance and intent.

Though the Newton model respects certain facets of OT text and law, it seems unable to grasp the subtleties of God's language, reason, purpose and law in OT text, bending misinterpretation and context as a result. (my impression of course.) Then again so does Roman Catholicism to a substantial degree.

Truly, under the Newton model, God has, in my opinion (if not outright objectively speaking) complete majesty. He has all of the wonders that Christianity claims he has, but without any of the shortcomings such as being capable of anger and jealousy. God is better complemented and revered as a higher standard than in the Judeo-Christian model.

Again, I don't see these traits of God as "shortcomings"; They are totally relate-able and understandable -- yes, even of The Almighty.

I've explained the context of God's "jealousy"; His anger is a *righteous* anger akin to watching your children become willfully disobedient simply out of spite or because of selfishness. And most of all, His Anger (as in the case of ANY loving parent) is a response to knowing some of His children will die as a result of their willful ignorance, selfishness, and...yes, even contempt of a Father who does his best to guide and discipline them.

Q: Is it possible that the testimony of Newton's subjects (on which the entire Newton model is obviously based) *could* be contaminated by nefarious spiritual beings and methodical deception?

It's my contention that the old testament is a collection of ancient writings that, rather than being divinely inspired, are instead a collection of highly refined writings that are ascribed divine origin status. That ascription has taken on a life of its own in the form of both the Jewish faith as well as, of course, the Christian faith which is an extension of it. Under the Newton model, everything works perfectly, frankly, in terms of divine love and patience, and our purpose. Christianity simply doesn't work perfectly, which which I'm sure you'll strongly disagree. But the bottom line is, under the Newton model, no one is left behind with the possible exception of those who choose to be left behind. And under Christianity, people can go to hell for all eternity because someone never shared the gospel with them when they had the chance to. On it's face.... that's a point scored for the Newton model.

The Newton model works on some respects...As a loving forgiving parent. But maybe the "patience" is too much of a good thing. After all, how many time can a parent be expected to see Johnny harm and almost kill himself before being disciplined? Before learning his lesson?

The Newton model may be akin to the parent who won't ever tell Johnny that driving close to the cliff might result in his car going over the cliff and sure death. The main problem with the Newton model is...Consequences -- are are none. There is no personal responsibility, no justice, no real resolution or Finish Line. No Heaven and no Hell. No such thing as "sin"; No real such thing as "Forever". And ALWAYS a second, third fourth, infinity of "chances" to "get it right". I don't know how that makes any sense and by what universal "justice" that works (and of course, by whose "Authority")

Justice necessitates that some are NOT rewarded for their willful (keyword here) disobedience, blindness, arrogance, sin, AND contempt of The Father. Reward are merit-based; Obedience is rewarded. The Reward for Eternal Life is but from Grace.

The Afterlife is Forever. Better be sure because there is no second chance.

(I'm sorry I must cut this short...)

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-13   13:39:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: Liberator (#136)

When you put the literal fear of God into a population, and are able to cast yourself as a spokesman for God, then you have strong control over those people.

Is conveying the Word of God as a disciple/"spokesman" a matter of "leadership" OR coercion (as you infer)? Faith in God and heeding His Laws are all still a matter of Free Will, are they not? Jesus Christ and his disciples never coerced others into being Believers. And neither do legit "spokesmen" or Pastors who spread the Gospel and remind and lead the flock down the "narrow road".

I'm not speaking of properly appointed leaders. Rather, those who find themselves in positions of power and use it to further their own interests. Since you view Constantine as having been a non-Christian, he would be an excellent example.

Doesn't any parent run that same gamut of emotion as they watch their child grow up? After all, we are just extensions of God the Father. We may even know beforehand that our child WILL fall, but the child must learn. Then we pick him up.

All a matter of personal opinion of course; yours and my Free Will to seek the truth then choose our respective path. I fully understand and accept the context of The Almighty's language and find no inconsistencies or weakness in his conveyance and intent.

It seems clear you first accept the Bible as God's Word, and because of that, find no inconsistencies. But certainly, once you do accept that premise, you are **not allowed** to find any inconsistencies. Any perceptions of such will be automatically be categorized as something you are not wise enough to understand, in which case there is nothing anyone could point out about the Bible that would make you question it's divine origin.

To be clear, my position is not that God should not be believed. My position instead is that the Bible is not his divinely inspired word.

I've explained the context of God's "jealousy"; His anger is a *righteous* anger akin to watching your children become willfully disobedient simply out of spite or because of selfishness. And most of all, His Anger (as in the case of ANY loving parent) is a response to knowing some of His children will die as a result of their willful ignorance, selfishness, and...yes, even contempt of a Father who does his best to guide and discipline them.

This compels me to ask a more fundamental question: Did God have any choice in the matter of spiritual law related to sin and redemption? In the "time before time" as it were, did God, knowing that the Christian model would see a majority of his children perish in eternal flame "sign off" on this model, or is it possible that He could have said, "no, I don't like this model. I prefer a model of reincarnation where I never have to send anyone into a lake of eternally fire".

Would you say that A) God had no such choice as he is/was restricted by his very nature, or B) He had a choice, and chose the one now known as Christianity where most of his children end up dying?

Personally, I think He had a choice, and I don't see why he would have chosen a system that works less well than one that works more well.

Q: Is it possible that the testimony of Newton's subjects (on which the entire Newton model is obviously based) *could* be contaminated by nefarious spiritual beings and methodical deception?

You've speculated on that before. Ultimately I can't prove the negative of saying this didn't happen. But if it did, would it be my fault for being suckered? What it comes down to is explaining each belief system in terms of the other's model. Under Christianity, "nefarious spiritual beings" would explain Newton's findings. And under Newton's model, Christianity has a largely human explanation for it's existence.

The Newton model works on some respects...As a loving forgiving parent. But maybe the "patience" is too much of a good thing. After all, how many time can a parent be expected to see Johnny harm and almost kill himself before being disciplined? Before learning his lesson?

Seven times seventy-seven? :^)

The Newton model may be akin to the parent who won't ever tell Johnny that driving close to the cliff might result in his car going over the cliff and sure death. The main problem with the Newton model is...Consequences -- are are none. There is no personal responsibility, no justice,

I take issue here. There certainly are consequences, which is part of the beauty of it. There absolutely is accountability.

no real resolution or Finish Line.

It's harder to see everything when us earthlings are so far down the totem pole of progression, but it seems there is a finish.

No Heaven and no Hell. No such thing as "sin"; No real such thing as "Forever". And ALWAYS a second, third fourth, infinity of "chances" to "get it right". I don't know how that makes any sense and by what universal "justice" that works (and of course, by whose "Authority")

"Get it right" is a mischaracterization, as it conotates more of a chance thing like you're doing some carnival contest of throwing rings to win a stuffed bear than an actual step in growth. Even when we fail, we learn.

Justice necessitates that some are NOT rewarded for their willful (keyword here) disobedience, blindness, arrogance, sin, AND contempt of The Father. Reward are merit-based; Obedience is rewarded. The Reward for Eternal Life is but from Grace.

In the Newton model, everything is 100% positive reinforcement, 0% negative reinforcement. Failing to grow is the punishment.

The Afterlife is Forever. Better be sure because there is no second chance.

Believing something out of fear is not something I see as a virtue God would respect or admire. I think He would better respect an honest disbeliever than a fake believer.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-13   15:49:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#149. To: All (#138)

The Newton model works on some respects...As a loving forgiving parent. But maybe the "patience" is too much of a good thing. After all, how many time can a parent be expected to see Johnny harm and almost kill himself before being disciplined? Before learning his lesson?

Seven times seventy-seven? :^)

Liberator, I see your subsequent responses, but want to expand a bit on this particular exchange. Firstly, it wasn't my intent to mock you or the Bible by employing this biblical numeric reference in my response, though it was certainly intended to be a funny retort as it was exactly that, turning the tables on you. Knowing you, however, I'm confident it wasn't taken as mocking.

But it actually goes further than that, because it's a great message on forgiveness and the Bible is completely on point with this quote that is reputed to be the response of Jesus, and I would interpret that number to mean "without count". Would you not agree?

And if we are called to forgive without count, is it reasonable to suggest that God has a more restrictive limit on forgiveness?

Well, under the Newton model, there are no such limits for God, but under the Christian model, there is. There is the limit of a single life, which may not even last more than a few years.

This is what I mean when I say that under the Michael Newton model, God is MORE forgiving and MORE loving and MORE patient than under the Christian model. Everything works **better**, and I would go so far as to say that under the Newton model, God has all the majesty that Christianity talks about Him having, but nonetheless fails to ascribe to Him when it comes to the matter of eternal damnation.

I know you can tell me and others the reasons God supposedly does this condemnation, and you may even argue that it isn't Him who actually does it. But it doesn't change the fact that under the Christian model (your version, at least) eternal condemnation occurs, and that under the Newton model, it does not (while still preserving accountability and free will). And I for one simply can't, with an honest mind, hold on to a theology that portrays God as having inferior qualities which is what I frankly see in the Christian model. When you argue about Christianity being the Truth, to me it's much like a car salesman trying to convince me that a Chevy Sail is superior in performance to a Camaro. It's not the individual theological elements that I pay attention to so much. It's the end result. And the end result of the Newton model is, frankly, is superior in having patience that spans eternal (i.e. "Seventy times seven" times) and on several other points as well.

(PS: looking it up, I see it's "seventy times seven" not "seven times seventy-seven").

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-18   20:13:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#160. To: Pinguinite (#149)

Liberator, I see your subsequent responses, but want to expand a bit on this particular exchange. Firstly, it wasn't my intent to mock you or the Bible by employing this biblical numeric reference in my response, though it was certainly intended to be a funny retort as it was exactly that, turning the tables on you. Knowing you, however, I'm confident it wasn't taken as mocking.

But it actually goes further than that, because it's a great message on forgiveness and the Bible is completely on point with this quote that is reputed to be the response of Jesus, and I would interpret that number to mean "without count". Would you not agree?

And if we are called to forgive without count, is it reasonable to suggest that God has a more restrictive limit on forgiveness?

I apologize for not finishing up my Part 3 of response -- which would have/will included that Bible quote....

You're right -- I didn't construe your quote as anywhere near "mocking" or insulting; My initial impression was in chuckling to myself. I thought it was clever and conveyed in great humor. Yup, IOW, I "got it".

I'll be out of thought-sequence on Part 3, but may as well respond and expound on your thoughts about "forgiveness" as was taught by Jesus.

"Seventy-times seven" -- there are a few different ways to interpret it; One obviously is the degree and extent to which we should forgive our brothers (just as long as they are truly repentant).

Another is the numerology facet, which the Bible and Jesus often cited. The number 7 is the number of perfection and completeness. It is said (and discovered) as yet one more divine non-coincidence that life operates in cycles of seven (the perfect number chosen by God.)

(For example, in the book of Revelation there are seven churches, seven angels to the seven churches, seven seals, seven trumpet plagues, seven thunders and the seven last plagues. The first resurrection of the dead takes place at the 7th trumpet, completing salvation for the Church. And of course, Micky Mantle wore #7 ;-)

But back on track -- IF as you say we, mankind, are to forgive as applied law (again, just as long as the offense and sin is NOT habitual and repentance is sincere), then it is what it is.

That said, should the rules, laws, and conditions for Mankind within the realm of our mortal, finite plane be applied to Almighty God in His Realm? I think that is the crucial distinction to consider here.

We are not The Final Judge and Arbiter of Sin and Justice; God set up the rules and laws -- and He was clear about the Finality of His Judgment. His "restrictive limit on forgiveness" is ultimately hinging on our own heart-felt repentance as well as whether we've accepted His Son, Jesus, in the very last act of "Forgiveness" by the only One who matters -- God.

Yes, man may be able to forgive one another for 70 Times 7...until Judgment Day, when the John 3:16 "Clause" kicks in.

Well, under the Newton model, there are no such limits for God, but under the Christian model, there is. There is the limit of a single life, which may not even last more than a few years.

This is what I mean when I say that under the Michael Newton model, God is MORE forgiving and MORE loving and MORE patient than under the Christian model. Everything works **better**, and I would go so far as to say that under the Newton model, God has all the majesty that Christianity talks about Him having, but nonetheless fails to ascribe to Him when it comes to the matter of eternal damnation.

Yes, "limits" do mean "definitive". As do "Laws" in the strictest sense.

It is true -- the Newton model of "forgiveness" is far more liberal. But in its model, God lets *everything* slide, doesn't He? It could be construed as a lack of discipline where the evil "students" get a Mulligan forever while the "holy" students are arguably bumped up into "Counselor" positions as a reward. Maybe it's just me -- it doesn't feel like "love"; it feels like an absentee parenting.

Yes, I can see how you might construe the Newton model God as more "patient" (eternally patient is it turns out). But might not that kind of God actually be considered "indifferent"? From my perspective, sorta like a substitute teacher or foster parent who is technically "there" and in charge, but is merely going through the motions until the "Lesson" may or may not be learned, *only* "Quizes" are given on life (NOT do or die "Tests"), and students/children "graduate" or become "adult" only if they feel motivated.

Moreover, in the Newton model, "Graduation Day" (If it comes) -- what resolution or realm again are its "students" graduating TO? What is the "Finish Line"?

The Christan God's "love" can be seen in nature in the sun, the water, the food, in nature. It's the tip of the iceberg of His Kingdom. That's not to say that man won't experience deep hardship and heartbreak in this life. For those who take the Narrow Path (yes, God doesn't sugar-coat it -- far more will not make it, but let's remember that that path is a matter of OUR own Free Will.)

The Christian God's love and promises are not only far more tangible than the Newton model, but reach deep into the heart and soul of those seeking Him. He speaks to those who speak to Him. The Christian God has clearly laid out the ground rules and Law, the Way, Truth and Life (without ambiguity), through nothing but simple Grace/Charity/Love paid the ransom for our eternal lives -- AND tells us that the reward for our faith and loyalty is...His Kingdom Forever.

Everything works **better**, and I would go so far as to say that under the Newton model, God has all the majesty that Christianity talks about Him having, but nonetheless fails to ascribe to Him when it comes to the matter of eternal damnation.

Ping, I'm sorry -- I just don't see any of that "Everything works better". I realize you'll discount that as a blind eye or ignorance, but the Newton model seems like a Karmic system that dispenses no actual Justice, has no "Helm", no "Captain", and no real Destination.

The Newtonian Resolution seems to be more like a lukewarm purgatory, treading and bobbing in water forever, putting off the inevitable: Death. And Judgment. Yes, along with possible Damnation. But also...Possible Eternal Life with God in His Perfect Kingdom. (This account is described and confirmed by several sources in Scripture. Is there a "confirmed" source of Newtonian Afterlife?)

Obviously, the avoidance of negative, fatal resolutions for eternity are what make Newton's model preferable. (That notion/belief still doesn't mean it's Model confirms what actually happens THE Second after we die.)

I know you can tell me and others the reasons God supposedly does this condemnation, and you may even argue that it isn't Him who actually does it. But it doesn't change the fact that under the Christian model (your version, at least) eternal condemnation occurs, and that under the Newton model, it does not (while still preserving accountability and free will). And I for one simply can't, with an honest mind, hold on to a theology that portrays God as having inferior qualities which is what I frankly see in the Christian model.

I see "Free Will" in the Newtonian Model, but not remotely any Accountability. Nor Justice. To me, any system that dispenses an earned and holy "Justice" is Godly and righteous. Conversely, why wouldn't Justice that NOT dispensed be considered unfair, a mockery of Eternal Justice?

(Moreover, to clarify -- IF true "Justice" were to be meted out by God on Judgment Day, ALL mankind would be declared guilty and condemned. Why? Because we have ALL broken His Law and sinned. (This is the crux of "Grace" and Salvation" and Christ's Love -- that we become declared innocent AND perfect in the Blood of Christ.)

When you argue about Christianity being the Truth, to me it's much like a car salesman trying to convince me that a Chevy Sail is superior in performance to a Camaro. It's not the individual theological elements that I pay attention to so much. It's the end result. And the end result of the Newton model is, frankly, is superior in having patience that spans eternal (i.e. "Seventy times seven" times) and on several other points as well.

Lol...a Chevy "Sail"? Never hoid of it. lets us a "Chevette" as an example :-)

The problems with the Newton model remain (without repeating myself) is the lack of evidence, questionable testimony, lack of authority, and its namesake "Prophet" who was an Atheist by his own account. And...where is the "love"??

God proves His identity by His Creation and Love and Justice by the testimony of eyewitness accounts, by miracles, by His laws and existence of His Kingdom through the Prophets, and both His Kingdom and Hell by Scriptural testimony. A

You've obviously invested quite a bit of soul-searching into eternal justice and our destiny beyond this mortal coil -- and that's a good thing because it is ultimately all that matters.

Why discount the Christan account in the first place? Can it be distilled down to your perception of "cruelty" and God's condemnation of sin and His banning of it from His Kingdom? Or was it your total objection that the "Word" is tainted by "man" to begin with? You DO understand that Newton was man...as were his subjects of whom provide the entire basis of the Newton Model? (Why should the latter's testimony be credible without question and wield THE truth, but the word of Jesus, the Apostles or the Prophets be invalidated?)

I can't debate "Truth" of the matter if you've already determined Christianity to be based on lies and testimony you deem invalid or discredited.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-19   16:07:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#161. To: Liberator (#160)

It is true -- the Newton model of "forgiveness" is far more liberal. But in its model, God lets *everything* slide, doesn't He?

If letting things "slide" is your impression, it's an incorrect one and shows your mindset is anchored to the idea that only two states are possible, forgiven and unforgiven, and that is all God cares about. Indeed, that's clear from your other writings and certainly is the Christian doctrine. But under the Newton model, it's really about growth, and if God simply lets things "slide", then there's no growth. As I have emphasized a few times there **IS** accountability in the Newton model.

Yes, I can see how you might construe the Newton model God as more "patient" (eternally patient is it turns out). But might not that kind of God actually be considered "indifferent"?

In a word, no. Because it's about growth. You are fixated on the thought that forgiveness must be a tenant of any spirit model. It seems you cannot see beyond that / more than that. In essense, you see fault in the Newton model because of the incompatibilities it has with the fundamental doctrine you are anchored to.

Moreover, in the Newton model, "Graduation Day" (If it comes) -- what resolution or realm again are its "students" graduating TO? What is the "Finish Line"?

... The Christian God has clearly laid out the ground rules and Law, the Way, Truth and Life (without ambiguity), through nothing but simple Grace/Charity/Love paid the ransom for our eternal lives -- AND tells us that the reward for our faith and loyalty is...His Kingdom Forever.

You say the rules are clear, and yet you did say in another post that the Bible is too deep for anyone to understand. Contradiction?

As for the "reward" for faith and loyalty. Is that the reason Christians follow Jesus? So they can get a "reward" from God for being "loyal"? Isn't that a bit.... wrong somehow, in the sense that it's almost a monetary payback? Admittedly, under the Newton model we are rewarded, but with growth. I guess it's a case of our rewarding ourselves for our perseverance and lifelong choices, rather than God rewarding us. As we do well, we grow well.

As for what the "finish line" is, as far as I can tell, it is, ultimately, rejoining God, which is pretty much the same as what Christianity says so there's no conflict there. But isn't it unfair of you to cite the mysteriousness of the full path of the Newton model when you yourself stated that the Bible is beyond complete understanding? Why is it then so bad that the Newton model is beyond complete understanding? Under Christianity, you die and bamm... your there with God. All done for the rest of eternity, no more learning is required. Under Newton, not so fast... it's a far, far, far, longer road. Does it sound so absurd that God might want us to actually grow?

The Newtonian Resolution seems to be more like a lukewarm purgatory, treading and bobbing in water forever, putting off the inevitable: Death. And Judgment.

You are fixated on the belief that ultimate "judgement" must occur. As long as your mind has sworn loyalty to that belief, then yes you will certainly not ever see sense in the Newton model.

Obviously, the avoidance of negative, fatal resolutions for eternity are what make Newton's model preferable. There are many other points that favor the Newton model (though I don't consider such advantages proof Newton is correct).

I see "Free Will" in the Newtonian Model, but not remotely any Accountability. Nor Justice. To me, any system that dispenses an earned and holy "Justice" is Godly and righteous.

That is indeed your perception.

Conversely, why wouldn't Justice that NOT dispensed be considered unfair, a mockery of Eternal Justice?

Again, it's about growth, not justice. Though justice can help facilitate growth. Under Newton, justice is a means of growth. Under Christianity, not so much. In fact, perhaps not at all. Justice is instead, once served, the end of the line, one way or the other.

Lol...a Chevy "Sail"? Never hoid of it. lets us a "Chevette" as an example :-)

Oh, okay. We have them down here and they are a popular model slightly higher than an basic Aveo go-kart, which is a glamorized Spark which almost *IS* a go-kart. If you know those models. Are they still making Chevettes in the US?

The problems with the Newton model remain (without repeating myself) is the lack of evidence, questionable testimony, lack of authority, and its namesake "Prophet" who was an Atheist by his own account. And...where is the "love"??

Wow. I could say a lot. But I guess I already have. As for Newton's Atheist past, my first thought is of St. Paul who was certainly worse than an atheist, so I'll return to you that parallel. As for the love in the Newton model.... it sure seems to me Newton wins that contest hands down.

God proves His identity by His Creation and Love and Justice by the testimony of eyewitness accounts, by miracles, by His laws and existence of His Kingdom through the Prophets, and both His Kingdom and Hell by Scriptural testimony.

I take issue with the claim of witnesses. Unless they've been (quite ironically) reincarnated, the witnesses you refer to are dead, and so cannot be cross examined and so on. What you have are ancient written claims of accounts. By contrast, Newton has witnesses in the form of currently living people who have had past life recall. You may very well have contemporary accounts of miracles accredited to Christian faith. However, those can in fact potentially be explained under the Newton model. By contrast, the Christian explanation for evidence of Newton's model seems to rest on demons weaving a long lasting web of lies. Ultimately, I can't rule that out. But on the other hand, I suggest it's not possible to rule it out for any belief. Is it possible to rule out Christianity as having a similar deceptive source?

You've obviously invested quite a bit of soul-searching into eternal justice and our destiny beyond this mortal coil -- and that's a good thing because it is ultimately all that matters.

Indeed I have. Thank you. You have also.

Why discount the Christan account in the first place? Can it be distilled down to your perception of "cruelty" and God's condemnation of sin and His banning of it from His Kingdom? Or was it your total objection that the "Word" is tainted by "man" to begin with?

A very good and fair question.

One reason to discount Christianity is the same argument atheists put forth. A lack of fairness. The idea that an 8 year old child that dies going on to spend eternity in hell because he never heard a Christian gospel is, on it's face, a difficult concept to stomach. Some people live to old age, others die quite young. Some grow up in Christian homes, others never having a chance to consider it as a means to salvation. Yes, there is the standard response to atheists who raise this objection, but in the end, Liberator, that paperwork, bureaucratic divine legalese explanation does not save the 8 year old from eternal damnation.

So I ask you, is that the best God can do? Under Christian rules, the answer is "yes". That is the best our all-powerful, all-loving, all-wise God can do.

Well, under Newton, we have a different answer, and that answer is "no". God can do far better. Far, far, better. And I believe He does do better.

You DO understand that Newton was man...as were his subjects of whom provide the entire basis of the Newton Model? (Why should the latter's testimony be credible without question and wield THE truth, but the word of Jesus, the Apostles or the Prophets be invalidated?)

This question is unfair. Never have I considered Newton to be on target "without question". I've been fielding all questions about Newton I can possibly find, from yourself and others.

I can't debate "Truth" of the matter if you've already determined Christianity to be based on lies and testimony you deem invalid or discredited.

Indeed, we are, unsurprisingly, both firmly set in our views. But being challenged is always a good thing nonetheless.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-20   18:38:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#245. To: Pinguinite (#161)

Again, it's [The Newton Model] about growth, not justice. Though justice can help facilitate growth. Under Newton, justice is a means of growth.

Under Christianity, not so much. In fact, perhaps not at all. Justice is instead, once served, the end of the line, one way or the other.

(For your consideration):

It seems you may have inadvertently and just maybe, unfairly distilled Christianity doctrine down to a caricature of itself.

Under Christianity, or "Christ-ianity", life can't be helped but be considered a "Test" of sorts" -- a Final Test at that -- except that the circumstances aren't always "fair". Fact is circumstances of life are mostly unequal AND unfair; Yet the ground-rules remain the same for all. IF we are aware of them (the heart/spirit it seems -- even devoid of formal "religion" has always been hard-wired with an innate awareness of "Good & Evil"; Right & Wrong. As well as "knowing" there is Something/Someone Greater than we.)

"Justice" IS a consideration for man, which confers a fairness and upheld standard of law and ethic based on morality. I'm sure you'd agree that this expectation would apply whether secular, Newtonian, or Christian life.

In Christian life, The Law also commands love, forgiveness, compassion, redemption, mercy. Christians are taught also to grow in wisdom, discipline and humility along the way in life to endure.

According to the Bible's record, documenting Adam's lineage (which Jesus Himself cites), pre-Flood man typically lived up to 700-900 (why that was is a discussion for a different thread). Post-Flood man's max life span was downgraded to @100-120 years. That's plenty of time to "grow" in wisdom", IF we make it a priority.

(Yes, as we know, in certain civilizations, the life span is cut in half or even less. Again I'd cite "extenuating circumstances" that The Almighty Judge would consider) In any case, inevitably comes death and an account of our life to the One who created us.)

"Growth". You'll note that we (all the major Abrahamic faiths) realize we possess just one lifetime in this moral coil with which to "git 'er done". Some take this notion more seriously than others; Some let the chips fall, hoping there is some "Universal Fairness & Justice" mechanism that forgives, forgets. Or as in the Newton Model or perhaps in other Karmic belief systems, interim souls are briefed and tutored on how to best "grow" as their lives are recycled, regenerating enough "growth" in learning to step up in a presumptive hierarchy or upgrade next life. (OR in other Karmic beliefs, the perp becomes "victim" in that "Universal Judicial System".

For those of us who believe our "Growth" is limited by our lifespan on this earth, on this mortal plane, there IS a sense of urgency or awareness. Although for many they run out of time (a "shortcoming" the Newton Model alleges to address.)

Time. Age. We've both likely noted that this is a reason TIME becomes of the essence for many older folks. When our mortal shells/body's start declining and degrading, it serves as "URGENT!" God's wake-up call to start reassessing and focusing on the right path; what's been expected from us the entire time (IF we've been blessed to live longer lives to begin with.)

Frankly, I haven't received or clearly understood answers to the following questions:

If "Growth" is the #1 Priority and Goal of the Newton Model, exactly in what sense or context is expected to "grow"? To what extent that would be considered meeting that goal? (what Authority established it? No, I still don't know what IS THE "Authority" of the Newton Model. Newton created a template for the Afterlife, but divulges no authors -- except apparently himself.) What lessons are to be "learned"?

Moreover, if the recycled life goes on and on (without resolution), might the subject also degrade instead of improve? Why would there be any sense of urgency in "getting it right" (however "right" is defined)? AT what point does the Newtonian Resolution reach its target or Final Resolution?

Is "Peace" projected to be found at its End Game? Love? Fellowship? What kind of Realm is expected? Is it an Edenic metaphysical dimension? Or is Earth the eternal destination (with different bodies?)

"Justice". Doesn't the notion preclude a standard of morality and ethics and Law that has been established and expected to have been followed and met to a certain degree? It can be said that "Judgement" precludes an ultimate Judge of said "Law" and extent to which has been deemed "ACCEPTABLE". Or a "Passing Grade".

For the God of the Bible, the Creator, There IS no standard of "Acceptable" or Passing Grade on His Report Card. We ALL "Fail". No man is sinless despite all of the good deeds, the virtuous growth of a lifetime, the good intentions. Hence we ALL must die. (at least once.)

On Judgment Day, ONLY a Merciful God ONLY through Jesus Christ gives all a "Passing Grade" or "Mulligan" for the Second Life aka "Eternity". Those are HIS words, HIS Guaranty. Why isn't Eternal Life and Paradise for Sinners abusing God's Law considered the ultimate gesture of "LOVE"?

Are there other paths to Eternal Life? One must be Judged. If God is the Judge of Judges, His fairness and justice may presumably rest on extenuating circumstances and a God who knows the Heart of All -- even before they were born.

Btw -- an aside...I seem to recall you questioning the source of food in the Afterlife or before The Fall. Do you recall? According to my recollection there was a question about death and perhaps "dead things" being the source of food.

Liberator  posted on  2018-07-25   17:20:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#247. To: Liberator (#245)

Under Christianity, or "Christ-ianity", life can't be helped but be considered a "Test" of sorts" -- a Final Test at that -- except that the circumstances aren't always "fair". Fact is circumstances of life are mostly unequal AND unfair;

One of the advantages of the Newton model: life can be said to always be fair at all times, no matter what happens, even being born with severe deformities, because every soul voluntarily accepted, in advance, the circumstances of a life being lived.

IF we are aware of them (the heart/spirit it seems -- even devoid of formal "religion" has always been hard-wired with an innate awareness of "Good & Evil"; Right & Wrong. As well as "knowing" there is Something/Someone Greater than we.)

Indeed, I agree. And this is supported under Newton, as this perception of morality is soul based -- something we have a sense of because of our subconscious knowledge and memories of life in the spirit world. It is not human based.

"Justice" IS a consideration for man, which confers a fairness and upheld standard of law and ethic based on morality. I'm sure you'd agree that this expectation would apply whether secular, Newtonian, or Christian life.

Sure, I would agree. Our human, earthly sense of justice could/would be a reflection of the morality we collectively brought with us from the spirit world.

In Christian life, The Law also commands love, forgiveness, compassion, redemption, mercy. Christians are taught also to grow in wisdom, discipline and humility along the way in life to endure.

In spite of obvious differences between the two, when it comes to morality, Christianity and the Newton model agree on just about everything.

According to the Bible's record, documenting Adam's lineage (which Jesus Himself cites), pre-Flood man typically lived up to 700-900 (why that was is a discussion for a different thread). Post-Flood man's max life span was downgraded to @100-120 years. That's plenty of time to "grow" in wisdom", IF we make it a priority.

Under Newton, 100 years is time to grow, but not nearly time enough to grow in all ways earthly life has to offer, which is the practical explanation behind why reincarnation is a reasonable consideration. We've all heard of the crazy elderly uncle that is always angry at people. For such a person, one lifetime has simply not been enough to overcome that vice. So why not grant a soul multiple lifetimes to overcome it? Under Newton, God's patience is eternal in this regard. Under Christianity, there's not, though there's no need to, as forgiveness is a prayer away.

Christianity has the doctrinal struggle of faith vs fruits of a believing heart. If someone is "saved" by confessing Jesus as personal savior, then goes on their life as they did before, immersed in sin with no practice of a changed heart, do they go to heaven upon death? You'll get different answers from different fundamentalists Christians, some arguing that once forgiven/always forgiven, another saying that perhaps not, as a changed life is evidence of one who was truly welcomed Jesus into their lives. Regardless of how you come down on that question, the debate exists.

Under Newton, the fruits of one's life is regarded strongly as evidence of spiritual growth. What one may pray at one moment in time (i.e. "Jesus forgive me..." is not, though at the same time, such a person is not condemned at life's end to eternal punishment. Instead, they have all the time they need. The number of lives spent in stagnation is a penalty unto itself for the soul in question, as they miss opportunities to grow (the sense of waste which is greatly amplified upon return to the spirit world as are all other regrets). Growth is something that we all want at the spiritual level as per the morality we all have inside as as you described earlier. Though that desire may be in conflict with the carnal temptations that come from human living.

(Yes, as we know, in certain civilizations, the life span is cut in half or even less. Again I'd cite "extenuating circumstances" that The Almighty Judge would consider)

Under Newton, some lives are so very short. But even short lives of a few years offer lessons, if even brief, so the tragedy of such a child dying is ultimately not there as it is under Christianity (and all Abrahamic faiths). That's another plus for the Newton model.

For those of us who believe our "Growth" is limited by our lifespan on this earth, on this mortal plane, there IS a sense of urgency or awareness.

Yes, of course it is. We are always a heartbeat away from departing life for good.

Frankly, I haven't received or clearly understood answers to the following questions:

I will do my best, though my answers (*my* answers) may very well not satisfy you.

If "Growth" is the #1 Priority and Goal of the Newton Model, exactly in what sense or context is expected to "grow"? To what extent that would be considered meeting that goal? (what Authority established it?

Please do consider the supposition that every soul is unfathomly (a new word perhaps) unique. As such, what constitutes "growth" is similarly unique to every soul. It would be why having a fixed yardstick by which to measure the growth of all souls would be futile. It could perhaps be much akin to attempting to measure an IQ with a number, when the reality is that intelligence comes in a great many forms. One who is exceptionally brilliant with spacial comprehension might be terrible lacking in numeric capabilities, or one brilliant with numbers terrible with reading comprehension. Granted, we can often tell if a person is generally intelligent or not, but attempting to measure all people's intelligence with a number is ultimately fallacious. In the same way, measuring a soul's progress with a similar numeric or binary value would be futile.

No, I still don't know what IS THE "Authority" of the Newton Model.

You have latched on to this "Authority" concept, but I would contend that even though the concept is satisfying to you as a way of thinking about things, it is nonetheless something you depend upon too much (though that obviously won't sway you!)

Newton created a template for the Afterlife, but divulges no authors -- except apparently himself.)

What answer to authorship would satisfy you? A name or set of names?

What lessons are to be "learned"?

In general, the same as under Christianity. To love, forgive, etc.

Moreover, if the recycled life goes on and on (without resolution), might the subject also degrade instead of improve?

In a sense, yes. And it does happen. One born into an exceptionally soft life can "degrade" in a sense. There's one example Newton mentions of a soul living the life of a Chinese empress who had complete power to use all that her people could provide for any selfish benefit, likely including power to enslave and kill upon a whim. This soul spent the next 500 years just getting back to where she was before that life. Though on the other hand, a stronger, more experienced and developed soul would likely have been able to live a life exposed to such power and privilege without being consumed by it, at least to such a degree as this soul was. (I.e. s/he would have been able to much better resist the "One Ring To Rule Them All"). So it could be said that this particular soul that "degraded" simply wasn't very strong to begin with, so the life as a self-aggrandizing emperor was productive in exposing that weakness. So in that sense, did that soul, even in this case, truly "degrade"? It all depends on how you look at things. Again, each soul is profoundly unique, and measuring the progress of a soul can't be readily done with a simple yardstick. I suppose it could be said we do not all grow in the same direction, as it were. If it were otherwise, then what is it about us that would be so divinely special?

Why would there be any sense of urgency in "getting it right" (however "right" is defined)?

Maybe there wouldn't be. If there was no urgency, would that be a deal killer for belief purposes? Ultimately the only urgency is for the soul in question. We have soulmates (plural) whom all may be progressing faster than we are so that would provide some degree of urgency. At the soul level, we all come to earth for the purpose of growing so upon return, if we have failed to do so, there's a profound sense of waste. At least for the more experienced souls. Younger souls, according to Newton, don't really come to actively grow. Those types are just in the equivalent of nursery school, just getting an introduction to how things feel, much as human babies are learning about gravity and what hurts and what doesn't. More advanced souls want to improve themselves just as people are inspired to excel in education with universities and masters and such.

AT what point does the Newtonian Resolution reach its target or Final Resolution?

For a specific soul? Again that question suggests a "yardstick" type of measurement. I can't answer that, and never will be able to do so. If you ask in a more universal sense on par with the Christian version of the final judgment, the golden city, Satan and all fallen angels gone from our lives being bound and thrown into the lake of fire... no, there's no final resolution I know of. New souls are constantly created (born of God in the spirit world), which is why earth has souls of all experience and development levels walking upon it, so progress continues without any end I can reason exists. Even our universe, created for the purpose of letting us experience physical life as humans (or whatever other comparable alien race that may exist in the cosmos), created with a big bang and destined, according to our best science today, to eventually fizzle out as dark energy eventually rips even atoms to smithereens, can be replaced with another big bang. Under Newton, multiple universes can exist, and he does cite one client referring to alternate dimensions. There is no limit. One could take all the infinality of God that is present even under Christianity and apply it to both space AND time, and even into universes and find no "Final Resolution". So while yes, under the Bible, there is a "Final Resolution" for all things in the Golden city described in Revelation. Under Newton, any "final resolution" likely does not exist in a universal sense. The spirit world, like God, and consequently us as souls, have no end, not in time, not in space. We will outlast not only this universe which is some 13 billion years old and has perhaps another 100 billion left, but all others that follow.

Is "Peace" projected to be found at its End Game? Love? Fellowship? What kind of Realm is expected? Is it an Edenic metaphysical dimension? Or is Earth the eternal destination (with different bodies?)

No, endless reincarnation is clearly not our ultimate destiny. A time comes when each soul has progress sufficiently such that further incarnations provide no meaningful growth potential so it would be a waste of time. If such souls were to do so, they would be perceived as especially charismatic and lovely persons and understandably & rightly so. They probably would not run for political office, likely not be televangelists or otherwise be notable people in the media in any way. They would be the quiet types dedicating their life to helping others that only a few people would know. They may even have some supernatural ability to heal others or touch other lives in other supernatural ways. But I digress...

Newton does describe in his final book a client that seems to be very advanced and perhaps relatively close to finishing up earthly incarnations, and it seems that our eventual destiny, though perhaps not even our "final" destiny is to rejoin God from whom we have, as souls, been born from in our very soulful infancy. And it may well be something that cannot be done until we have progressed far beyond even what progress earthly life can offer us. This could be considered a parallel of sorts to the Christian "cleansing of sin" that is required to enter God's presense, only "sin" would be replaced in concept with "weakness" or "undeveloped in virtue". In essence, instead of being cleansed of something undesirable, (though yes, there's that in the Newton model when it comes to vices such as anger and jealousy) it's more about expanding into the fullness of virtue through growth. We start out as "baby" souls and grow into very powerful and unique entities unlike any other than has preceded us and any other that is yet to come, and when we rejoin God, we do so as a unique contribution to God, which is in part all souls that have ever done so before. In that state, we are part of God and, I surmise, contribute to the creation/birth of yet more souls. And while that cycle continues, there may yet be even more awaiting us even beyond that. Our human minds are woefully inadequate to understand and perceive the spiritual answers on this point that we want.

"Justice". Doesn't the notion preclude a standard of morality and ethics and Law that has been established and expected to have been followed and met to a certain degree? It can be said that "Judgement" precludes an ultimate Judge of said "Law" and extent to which has been deemed "ACCEPTABLE". Or a "Passing Grade".

Hopefully I answered this (though no doubt unsatisfactorily) that the "standard" or "yardstick" or "IQ" method of measuring a soul's state is fallacious in the Newton model.

On Judgment Day, ONLY a Merciful God ONLY through Jesus Christ gives all a "Passing Grade" or "Mulligan" for the Second Life aka "Eternity". Those are HIS words, HIS Guaranty. Why isn't Eternal Life and Paradise for Sinners abusing God's Law considered the ultimate gesture of "LOVE"?

It is a gesture of love. The Christian doctrine of God giving his only son for us has that moral of ultimate love, as does the decision of Jesus to accept the horrendous death on the cross for both God and us. It's a display of love, a message of love, that matches the love in the Newton model. Both under Christianity and Newton, we are called to love and sacrifice for others, though under Newton, we are to do so wisely, and sometimes that means letting people suffer in circumstances that are of their own making. And *THAT* is, perhaps, how God expresses love for us under Newton. He lets us suffer in circumstances of our own making too, because that is how we learn. And for someone that is given to anger, what could be a more fitting manner of love than to see us back on earth, living life after life mired in anger, waiting patiently for us to overcome such a vice?

Sure, God could just say, screw it, you've got this anger issue but I'm just going to wipe it away. You don't have to over come it. Just join us at the table, there's your harp so just grab that, have a seat, start playing it and join the party.

No. We don't that under Newton. It's instead something like: You did a little better this time, or maybe instead, you learned a bit that last life, didn't you? Now go back and try again. You'll get it! I have faith in ya!

Tell me, Liberator, which of those two scenarios is more compelling in virtue?

We as parents love to see our children grow, do we not? Why is it so unrealistic for God to want us to grow as well? Parents don't want grown up kids living in the house rent free for the rest of their lives, so why would God only want the equivalent of 4 year olds to never have to even learn how to add?

This is just one of many Newton concepts that just makes so. much. more. sense.

Are there other paths to Eternal Life?

Your question implies paths exist and that Eternal death exists. Free will always exists, and it does seem some souls, sadly, undergo some very difficult times. It's even possible some choose destruction under Newton, though that's uncertain. But I think the vast majority of souls desire to grow and progress, and each is on its own path.

Btw -- an aside...I seem to recall you questioning the source of food in the Afterlife or before The Fall. Do you recall? According to my recollection there was a question about death and perhaps "dead things" being the source of food.

I challenged the creationist view of earth and Eden where death "did not exist". But if this refers to physical/biological death down to the cellular level, whether human or not, then it seems it would be difficult for Adam and Eve to eat much food as digestion of most foods would require death of that material to occur. I suppose fruits could be considered non-living at the time of consumption, though even in that case, they need to be alive to grow in the first place so whether such plant material dies during consumption or before hand, "death" of those cells would occur by necessity.

Separately, hair, surface skin and fingernails are, in the human body today, dead cellular material. If there was "no death" in Eden before the fall, would this mean that Adam and Eve had no hair, that their surface skin was alive, and that their fingernails were also alive? Perhaps they never grew. Also, if the command of God to multiply given before the fall, was Eve expected to give birth without any cellular death occurring? That seems quite a trick, all considered.

It's an academic challenge on my part for those subscribing to the literal Biblical story of creation.

Quite the dialog. Still meat on the old bone indeed!

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-07-26   12:29:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#248. To: Pinguinite (#247) (Edited)

Quite the dialog. Still meat on the old bone indeed!

Yes it is. Can't even see the bone ;-)

I appreciate and enjoyed your responses. It's always seems to be good food for thought for both of us.

(And thanks for addressing the pre-fall Creationist view of "Death" and challenge to the molecular level. AND adding an addendum regarding "Go and multiply...")

I'll be ruminating and eventually responding. (Likely in parts)

Liberator  posted on  2018-07-26   16:03:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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