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Economy
See other Economy Articles

Title: Is The U.S. Economy Really Growing? (No)
Source: realinvestmentadvice
URL Source: http://realinvestmentadvice.com/is-the-u-s-economy-really-growing/
Published: Mar 17, 2018
Author: Peter Cook
Post Date: 2018-03-17 21:49:33 by Hondo68
Keywords: John Maynard Keynes, debt/GDP ratio, will only get worse
Views: 8884
Comments: 58

Most people are aware that GDP growth has been lower than expected in the aftermath of the Global Financial Crisis of 2008 (GFC). For example, real GDP growth for the past decade has been closer to 1.5% than the 3% experienced in the 50 years prior to 2008. As a result of the combination of slow economic growth and deficit spending, most people are also aware that the debt/GDP ratio has been rising.

However, what most people don’t know is that, over the past ten years, the dollar amount of cumulative government deficit spending exceeded the dollar amount of GDP growth. Put another way, in the absence of deficit spending, GDP growth would have been less than zero for the past decade. Could that be true?

Let’s begin with a shocking chart that confirms the statements above, and begins to answer the question. The black line shows the difference between quarterly GDP growth and the quarterly increase in Treasury debt outstanding (TDO). When the black line is above zero (red dotted line), the dollar amount is GDP is growing faster than the increase in TDO. From 1971 to 2008, the amount of GDP typically grew at a faster rate than the increase in TDO, which is why the black line is generally above the red dotted line.

Chart 1

During the 1971-2008 period, inflation, budget deficits, and trade deficits varied widely, meaning that the relationship between GDP growth and TDO was stable even in the face of changes in other economic variables. Regardless of those changing economic variables, the US economy tended to grow at a pace faster than TDO for four decades. The only interruptions to the pattern occurred during recessions of the early 1980s, early 1990s, and early 2000s when GDP fell while budget deficits did not.

The pattern of GDP growth exceeding TDO changed after 2008, which is why the black line is consistently below the red dotted line after 2008. A change in a previously-stable relationship is known as a “regime change.” Focusing first on 2008-2012, the increase in TDO far exceeded GDP growth, due to an unprecedented amount of deficit spending compared to historical norms. Focusing next on 2013-2017, the blue line has been closer to the red dotted line, meaning that the dollar amount of GDP growth was roughly equal to TDO.

If the pattern of the past was in effect, the black line should have been far above the red dotted line for most of the entire period of 2009-2017, because it would be expected that a recovering economy would have produced an excess of GDP growth over TDO. But that didn’t happen. This article will not speculate on why there was a regime change. Instead, this article is focused strictly on identifying that a regime change occurred, and that few people recognize the importance of the regime change, which is probably why it persists.

Taking a quick detour into the simple math of GDP accounting, the level of GDP is calculated by adding up all forms of spending:

GDP = C + I + G + X

In the equation above, C is consumer spending; I is investment spending by corporations; G is government spending; and X is net exports (because the US has become such a heavy net importer, X has been a subtraction from GDP since 2000).

For context, at the end of 2017, the level of US GDP was $19.74 trillion, per the Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA). Of that $19.74 trillion, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) calculated that the US government spent $3.98 trillion, all of which counts toward GDP. In 2017 the government borrowed $516 billion, meaning that the government spent more than it received via taxes and other sources. The main insight in understanding how the government calculates GDP is that all government spending counts as a positive for GDP, regardless of whether that spending is financed by tax collections or issuing debt.

Because deficit spending is additive in the calculation of GDP, it makes sense to compare the amount of deficit spending to the amount of GDP growth produced each year. The first four columns in the table below show the annual GDP, the annual dollar change of GDP, the total amount of Treasury debt outstanding (TDO) and the annual dollar change of TDO. Comparing the second and fourth columns, it is easy to see that the annual increases in TDO regularly exceed the increases in GDP.

Chart 2

The final column to the right shows the increase in TDO as a percentage of the annual change in GDP growth. When the ratio is greater than 100%, the increase in TDO is responsible for more than 100% of annual GDP growth. Reinforcing the message of Chart 1, the annual increase in TDO exceeded annual GDP growth in each of the years from 2008-2016. The only year in which annual GDP growth was greater than the increase in TDO was in 2017, possibly due to the debt ceiling caps, which have now been lifted.

The cumulative figures are even more disturbing. From 2008-2017, GDP grew by $5.051 trillion, from $14.55 trillion to $19.74 trillion. During that same period, the increase in TDO totaled $11.26 trillion. In other words, for each dollar of deficit spending, the economy grew by less than 50 cents. Or, put another way, had the federal government not borrowed and spent the $11.263 trillion, GDP today would be significantly smaller than it is.

It is possible to transform Chart 1, which shows annual changes in TDO and GDP from 1970-2017, into Chart 3 below, which shows the cumulative difference between the growth of TDO and GDP over the entire period from 1970-2017. The graph below clearly shows the abrupt regime change that occurred in the aftermath of the GFC. A period in which growth in GDP growth exceeded increases in TDO has been replaced by a period in which increases in TDO exceeded GDP growth.

Chart 3

Unfortunately, extending the analysis forward tells us the problem will only get worse.

Chart 4

Over the entire period from 2008 to 2021, the increase in TDO will exceed GDP growth by $7.531 trillion ($15.843 trillion of TDO compared to $8.312 trillion of GDP growth). While most people would accept that deficit spending is required for short periods to offset economic disturbances, even John Maynard Keynes wouldn’t expect it to become the norm. Nor would he expect that a dollar of deficit spending would produce less than a dollar of GDP growth.

Investment and Policy Implications

The purpose of this article is to clarify the changing relationship between the dollar amounts of GDP growth and budget deficits, which are funded by TDO. If indeed GDP growth has become reliant on budget deficits post-2008, there are many implications for investment policies across all asset classes. For example, might poor organic growth in the private sector explain the unexpectedly-low inflation environment and historically-low capital investment? If so, what are the implications for stocks and bonds?

Also, government policy should acknowledge the regime change and adapt policies accordingly. If massive deficit spending is required to produce a “positive” sign for GDP growth, is it possible that the private sector of the economy is not growing but shrinking? Is the private sector’s health now completely reliant on continued government deficits? If so, is there a limit to the government’s ability to run deficits by issuing bonds? If a dollar of increase in debt leads to less than a dollar of GDP growth, should the US continue to borrow? Should the Fed raise rates because of increased fiscal stimulus if the link between deficit spending, GDP growth, and inflation has experienced a regime change? Can any economic theory explain what is going on?

These questions will be addressed in upcoming articles.

Conclusions

  • All government spending boosts GDP calculations, regardless of whether government spending is financed by tax collections or deficits financed by debt issuance.
  • Isolating the interaction between increases in TDO and the dollar amount of GDP growth, the data show a regime change post-2008 compared to the period 1971-2007.
  • In the period 1971-2007, the dollar amount of GDP growth exceeded increases in TDO except in years in which the economy was in recession.
  • In the period 2008-2017, annual increases in TDO regularly exceeded the dollar amount of GDP growth, which remarkably occurred during years that GDP was calculated to be growing.
  • In the period 2008-2017, the cumulative increase in TDO was a multiple of cumulative GDP growth. The dollar amount of GDP growth was completely dependent on deficit spending.
  • The efficiency of each dollar of deficit spending is declining, because the dollar amount of TDO is greater than the dollar amount of GDP growth.
  • In the period 2018-2021, the increase in TDO will continue to exceed GDP growth, per forecasts made by the BEA and CBO. That is, GDP growth will be dependent on continued deficit spending.
  • Importantly, if the economy slips into recession, it is possible TDO will grow at well over $2 trillion per year, meaning that the gap between TDO and GDP will get much larger.
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#19. To: VxH (#11)

So you expect Trump to snap his fingers and indict/arrest people AS he's been defending himself from the continued Deep State onslaught and domestic sedition, treason and mutiny? You DO realized the players and process are rigged, right? And Trump has had to battle his own Party, right?

I don't know why I even bother any more...

Liberator  posted on  2018-03-19   13:10:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Liberator (#19)
(Edited)

AS he's been defending himself

The best defense is a good offense.

and Trump has had to battle his own Party, right?

What party is that? The one of with the royal tailors who wove the emperor his fancy new un(D)erwear?

I believe he believed that "now we don't care, right?":

"right?"

Nope - that was the WRONG answer; and his actions (or the lack thereof) reflect what he said.

So yeah, I don't expect anything from POodleTUS (D)onald other than to keep feeding the sheeple herd what they want to hear while being led along the path to the next Military Industrial exercise in regime change for Oligarchic- kleptocratic fun and profit.

Bush got a pass on all his "conservative" awesomeness for 8 years.

Not gonna make the same mistake this time.

Burn me once shame on you - burn me twice shame on who?

VxH  posted on  2018-03-19   14:14:59 ET  (3 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: VxH (#20)

(ME): "So you expect Trump to snap his fingers and indict/arrest people AS he's been defending himself from the continued Deep State onslaught and domestic sedition, treason and mutiny?"

YOU: The best defense is a good offense.

Yeah, cuz it's a fair fight. And the MSM is only exposing Trump's corruption, sedition, and sabotage of the US Constitution. OH WAIT.

Anyway, Trump has all this idle time on his hands. Sorta like Custer on top of the hill at Little Big Horn. RIGHT??

Btw, I'm not real good at interpreting OTHERS' photoshop and insider jokes/memes. Can you articulate your position/explanation in words, please?

Apparently you want to turn back the clock. many people evolve and CHANGE on issues in life as they grow to learn the truth. Now how back do you want to go in history to "indict" Trump as a fake Republican? Which "Republican is the "real" representation of the Party? Is it the McConnell-John McCain wing? Or the Tea Party/ Conservative Caucus? Which one do YOU support? (if at all?)

Do you understand what's been going on in the GOPe and RNC? Do you realize that neither supported Trump over Hillary?

REMINDERS: Ronald Reagan was once a Democrat? A divorcee just like Trump.

And before Saul was Paul -- one of the greatest of all Apostles -- we was a murderer of Christians, right?

Another question YOU need to ask yourself: WHY do BOTH Democrats and GOP leadership (as well as 95% of the media) hate Donald Trump so fervently?

And why on earth do you and others believe Trump can just wave a Magic Wand like a Pharaoh by official edict declare, "SO LET IT SHALL WRITTEN, SO LET IT BE DONE." He's not 0bama. (And as McConnell and Ryan both supported 0bama's EOs, they would oppose Trump's.)

Do you understand how legislation works?

Bush got a pass on all his "conservative" awesomeness for 8 years. Not gonna make the same mistake this time. Burn me once shame on you - burn me twice shame on who?

Dubya Bush?? You mean Bubba's "brother"? The guy who hangs out with the 0bamas, whose family admits they didn't vote for Trump?

Are you really going there?

Liberator  posted on  2018-03-19   16:54:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Liberator (#18)

I apologize

indeed you should

paraclete  posted on  2018-03-19   18:00:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: paraclete (#22)

OUCH...

Liberator  posted on  2018-03-19   18:16:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Liberator (#21)

Are you really going there?

Was there for 8 years.

Won't make that mistake again.

Emperor (D)onald is wobbling down the street in his un(D)erwear.

VxH  posted on  2018-03-19   18:46:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: VxH (#11)

Session refuses to deal with her. It’s one of the reasons Trump is irritated at session.

Deep state has deep roots.

Have you know any one person do as much damage as trump to the deep state? This is just his first year! I’m more impressed with trump everyday.

Justified  posted on  2018-03-20   11:05:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Justified (#25)

Deep state has deep roots.

Roots that were supposed to be...

"Gone in the first hour"

https://youtu.be/zb6-xz-geH4? t=10m27s 

His entire campaign was dramatic talking point buzzwords and bullshyte the pink haired poodles at Cambridge Analicktics pulled out of the arse of Social Media - and crafted into an image corresponding to what that data told him how to look cool for the demographic he was targeting.

I hate to be the messenger - but folks are going to have to wake up to the fact we got grifted.

Took 8 years of BS from BuSh to figure out the same thing.

Burn us once shame on them, burn us twice shame on who?


 

VxH  posted on  2018-03-20   13:48:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: VxH (#26)

You nuts?

BTW Trump has done more in 1 year than all the good both bush's did in 12 years.

You are being grifted by the powers that be to dump Trump so they can have a pure socialist in there. Watch what you ask for because you may just get it. This crap of all my way politics or nothing is getting old. Buck up! This is the best we could begin to ask for and get. MSM has been revealed to show who they really are. "We" always knew there were fractions in the MSM that got to promote what they wanted but Trump has shown the whole America who they really are. Trump has even outed his own party members. Now its up to everyone to do their part of knocking out the bad plays one by one.

BTW You have to stop the train before you can turn it around. One election will not stop the train but at least we have someone applying the breaks since President Reagan and before him was President Eisenhower. So in my whole life time we have had only 2 none socialist running the show!

Justified  posted on  2018-03-20   17:58:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Justified (#27)

BTW Trump has done more in 1 year than all the good both bush's did in 12 years.

yada yada. And the chocolate ration has been raised from 45 to 28.

Ask his FORMER economic adviser what he thinks of (D)onnys super duper tariff plan.

FAIL.

VxH  posted on  2018-03-20   22:58:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: VxH (#28)

yada yada. And the chocolate ration has been raised from 45 to 28.

Ask his FORMER economic adviser what he thinks of (D)onnys super duper tariff plan.

FAIL.

The same idiots that would rather crash the ecomny to save the rich?

Please for the average person he has been a blessing!!!!!!!!!!!

I have more work than I can deal with. Last year I started turning down work for the first time in 20 years!

Yes Im freaking happy and so are those in the middle class with me.

BTW Tariffs are probably what he is using to renegotiate crappy one-side trade deals the rich put forth to kill the middle class.

Justified  posted on  2018-03-21   19:00:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Justified (#29)

Whose going to end up paying the tariff, super genius?

VxH  posted on  2018-03-21   19:27:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: VxH (#30)

When you have an income tax and one sided free trade the work gets screwed.

So the real question is why would you have an income base system with no tariffs?

Justified  posted on  2018-03-21   19:51:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Justified (#31)

the work gets screwed.

"work" that all out with (D)rumpf's fanbase of union thugs did ya?

Please tell the class(es) how collectivized "labor" was responsible for off shoring much of manufacturing in the first place?

VxH  posted on  2018-03-22   12:39:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: VxH (#32)

Not a union man and never have been but they are Americans who pay taxes.

Why not address the problem with one sided trade and income tax based system?

Justified  posted on  2018-03-22   12:46:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Justified (#33)

Trade is one sided today because manufacturing in the USA became too expensive.

Organized, Marxist, "workers" - were significantly responsible for that.

"FROM EACH ACCORDING TO THEIR ABILITY - TO EACH ACCORDING TO THEIR NEED"

Tariffs are just another feeble mechanism for "achieving" that under the collectivized authority of the tyrannical, foam finger waving, majority.

VxH  posted on  2018-03-22   13:30:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: VxH (#34)

Trade is one sided today because manufacturing in the USA became too expensive.

No one side trade is because a bunch of rich fat cats figured out they could make a killing using cheap slave labor from foreign lands. Then when American workers took the financial hit and adapted to this the rich fat cats brought in cheap labor from foreign lands to work as slaves here to kill the American workers.

Tariffs are the only means one has to deal with one side so called free trade agreements while having an income tax based system. Do you even grasp why you can not have income tax base system and free trade???

Get rid of the income tax base system or live with tariffs!

Justified  posted on  2018-03-22   13:55:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Justified (#35)

Haven't heard of any auto "worker" union strikes lately.

Gee wonder why.

VxH  posted on  2018-03-23   3:09:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: VxH (#36)

Haven't heard of any auto "worker" union strikes lately. Gee wonder why.

DOn't care. Like I said not a union guy and never have been.

What I am is an American. What I do know is one sided free trade with an income tax base system will only destroy America. This is evident.

Is you blind hate for Unions(which I despise too) so great you are willing to destroy America all together?

I hate communist/Socialist. Its not fair in anyway to the American worker to be hammered by high taxes both local, state and federal then have foreign products shipped in and sold who pay zero tax while everything the American work produces is taxed at nearly 50%. Its a receipt for disaster that we cannot recover from. How about address this the real issue?

Justified  posted on  2018-03-23   11:01:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Justified (#37)

DOn't care

Uhuh. That would the "Low Information" feature of the Poodle Herd at work.

Good luck with that bait and switch thing.


Oops!

VxH  posted on  2018-03-23   14:38:58 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: VxH (#38)

Why do you run from the question?

If you think tariffs are bad(which they really are for long term use) then why have double whammy of income tax based system and so called free trade at the same time? All it will do is make foreign products much cheaper to the point where it puts American business out of business. So American workers are supporting foreign products by paying their tax burden too! Why is this a hard subject to grasp?

Justified  posted on  2018-03-23   17:48:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Justified (#39)

This may come as a shock to you - but we had an income tax before organized labor and the leftist EPA drove manufacturing off shore.

Tell me about your "double whammy" when a $500 cell phone costs $2000 - or isn't available at all.

"Dow closes at 2018 low as trade worries rise"

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/dow-set-for-triple-digit-drop-as-trade-war- fears-trigger-global-rout-2018-03-23

{ golf clap }

VxH  posted on  2018-03-24   0:13:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: VxH (#40)

We had tariffs the first 230 years and were able to buy Alaska! Income tax the last 100 years and free trade about 30plus years. We have to borrow money just to pay the interest on the loans of our national debt. Let see we just about ruined every good job in America in the last 30 years. Yes things are cheaper but half the country can not afford them. We are turning into a two group society. Rich and poor. We are turning into a socialist/communist state of a small group ruling the rest.

As for the dow it will have to readjust as it did when free one side trade was enacted with no protection for the American middle class. Big deal the DOW dropped some. We were due for a good drop. BTW only half the country is in the stock market.

Again you can not have a income tax based system and one sided free trade. We see what happens when it decimated the middle class. If you want real free trade then get rid of the income tax system and go with a sales tax based system on final product. Maybe if we keep debating it will sink in the damage done and why it did not work unless decimating the middle class was the whole reason for one sided free trade?

Justified  posted on  2018-03-24   16:39:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Justified (#41)

Again you can not have a income tax based system and one sided free trade. We see what happens when it decimated the middle class.

Meanwhile, the REALITY is the middle class was doing just fine when we had an income tax...

...before organized labor and "concerned" watermelon environmental activism drove manufacturing to those "shytehole countries" where (D)onald and his Wallstreet bankster cronies do bidness while talking out of both sides of their arse - and paddling the sheeple's popular canoe up the river into the heart of darkness.

VxH  posted on  2018-03-28   12:44:57 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: VxH (#42)

The tenacity of the American worker was underestimated by the powerful.

Adapt or die. Americans adapted to lower wages for the middle class.

The whole government system is screwed up. Income tax based system worked until people learned how to get congress to give them other peoples money. Then when one sided free traded was enacted the American horse started collapsing from exhaustion.

You can not have an income tax based system where only citizens pay taxes while having one sided trade deals where foreign products are not taxed! How freaking hard is it to understand this?

Justified  posted on  2018-03-28   14:05:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Justified (#43) (Edited)

he tenacity of the American worker was underestimated by the powerful.

Got any more MAGAnese sound bytes? Funny how buzzwords and bullshyte are better for hiding behind than actually building anything upon.

Adapt or die.

Been there, did that, learned a half dozen programming languages - earned the paycheck.

Oh, and paid the taxes.

Your Whining Mileage May Vary!

VxH  posted on  2018-03-29   22:12:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: VxH (#44)

Why do you just ignore the question? The whole reason for use to have this conversation.

Again for the umpteen time can you address "You can not have an income tax based system where only citizens pay taxes while having one sided trade deals where foreign products are not taxed! How freaking hard is it to understand this? "

Everyone knows the answer and so do you. The answer is you can't.

If you do you will lose jobs here, run up huge trade deficits, cause large portions of people to go on welfare which means dependent on government(another demoncrat voter), one less taxpayer so tax has to be raised, those that were making good money now turn to other means of making money ie drug dealing and stealing. Yes one sided trade deals and income tax based system is great!/s Great at turning good people into crappy people!

Justified  posted on  2018-03-30   9:09:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: Justified (#45)

{ shrug }

Not everybody shares your FAILURE to adapt.

Maybe (D)onald's tailors can knit poodles who failed to grow hair for the winter a sweater, too!

VxH  posted on  2018-03-30   12:45:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: VxH (#46)

Again no insight.

I take it you can not disprove my claim of reality of one sided free trade and income tax system. Which again means that only American products pay taxes while foreign products pay no taxes. Which in reality American products are supporting foreign products via paying their tax for them. Sad reality.

Justified  posted on  2018-03-30   14:15:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Justified (#47) (Edited)

American products pay taxes

Have you ever actually manufactured anything other than bullshyte?

VxH  posted on  2018-03-30   23:09:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: VxH (#48)

I personally have owned two service businesses. I have done construction since I was 14. I have also worked in machine shops which no longer exist and I know of 2 machine shops no longer here because of one sided free trade(These were friends of mine and were not union shops being we are here in Texas). I have seen what one sided free trade has done while coupled with an income tax based system.

Like I said those that push free trade and an income tax base system are helping the chicoms flourish with American tax payer subsidizing them. WAY TO GO!!!

You want free trade then dump the income tax system for a vat. You can never get rid of tariffs because its the stick used to force foreign companies and countries to stay in line. It would be like taking away an officers gun and telling him to patrol the worst parts of the city! You just handed over parts of the city to the criminals.

Somewhere down the line common sense must prevail!

Justified  posted on  2018-03-31   17:19:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Justified (#49) (Edited)

Uhuh.

So that's just a long winded way of saying - NO, you've never actually manufactured anything - or bought raw materials like ALUMINUM and STEEL.

Guess the machine shops you saw close didn't adapt to CNC.

Meanwhile, others did adapt and thrived even, GASP!, with an income tax.  Though that's gonna be a little harder now thanks to Donny Dumbass:

 

"for businesses that consume steel and aluminum, like automakers and beverage producers, it will likely mean higher prices. Many have warned that could cut into profits and ultimately spur layoffs."

http://money.cnn.com/2018/03/08/news/companies/companies- steel-aluminum-tariffs-list/index.html

 


 

VxH  posted on  2018-03-31   18:11:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: VxH (#50)

You have not brought one thing to this debate except holier than thou attitude.

Instead of just admitting you are wrong you act like a child.

I have better things to do with my life than waste my time with educating a stubborn minded child.

Justified  posted on  2018-03-31   18:23:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Justified (#51) (Edited)

You have not brought one thing to this debate except holier than thou attitude.

Meanwhile, in reality land:

 

"for businesses that consume steel and aluminum, like automakers and beverage producers, it will likely mean higher prices. Many have warned that could cut into profits and ultimately spur layoffs."

http://money.cnn.com/2018/03/08/news/companies/companies- steel- aluminum-tariffs-list/index.html
 

{golf clap}

VxH  posted on  2018-03-31   18:24:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: VxH (#52)

Dumb ass again who is paying tax on the product coming in? No one!

So any company that competes against foreign products is forced to pay taxes unlike the foreign product!

OMG how freaking hard is it to grasp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pull you head out your ass and think!!!!

Again for mental two year old. If one product is taxed at 30-50% and the other product is not taxed then who will win the price war? Then on top of that what happens to all the jobs lost and who is going to pay the local state and federal taxes that keep America going??????? OMG is it really hard to figure this out????????? Then with all those people unemployed the rest of America is going to have to pay them to live and retrain them for the next jobs that will be taken away until there are not fucking jobs or tax payers! Its a freaking cycle of fuck Middle Class America! I guess that's what you want?

Justified  posted on  2018-03-31   18:40:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Justified (#53)

who is paying tax on the product coming in?

Dony Dumbasse's Tarifs are on RAW MATERIALS, super genius.

But YOU've never bought those, have you.

"for businesses that consume steel and aluminum, like automakers and beverage producers, it will likely mean higher prices. Many have warned that could cut into profits and ultimately spur layoffs."

http://money.cnn.com/2018/03/08/news/companies/companies- steel- aluminum-tariffs-list/index.html
 

{golf clap}

VxH  posted on  2018-03-31   18:47:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: VxH (#54)

I just posted an article that blows your argument out of the water.

Justified  posted on  2018-03-31   18:59:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Justified (#55)

The tariffs are on RAW Materials, Douche Tard.

Until you've actually done some Manufacturing - STFU.

VxH  posted on  2018-03-31   19:20:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: VxH (#56)

OMG you have shit for brains!

Keep trying to change arguments. Tariffs and the affect there of.

These tariffs are there to get China and other one sided trade partners to renegotiate those bad trade deals! I'm sorry if English is your second language!

BTW Tariffs are not as bad as everyone claims anyway. Cheap shit is not cheap if you can not afford them!

I'm sorry that you are getting reamed by the tariff talks. A lot of other people got a whole lot worse when these one sided trade deals were pushed.

Justified  posted on  2018-03-31   19:28:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Justified (#57) (Edited)

OMG you have shit for brains!

That what Cohn was telling POodleTUS as he walked out the door?

"it had become clear that he and Trump were far apart on the president's plan to impose steep across-the-board steel and aluminum tariffs.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/377051-cohn- resigns-from-white-house

 

FAIL.

VxH  posted on  2018-03-31   22:52:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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