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Title: Police Union Complains That Public Got to See Them Roughing Up Utah Nurse
Source: Reason
URL Source: https://reason.com/blog/2017/09/27/ ... on-complains-that-public-got-t
Published: Sep 27, 2017
Author: Scott Shackford
Post Date: 2017-09-28 05:55:41 by Deckard
Keywords: None
Views: 1001
Comments: 17

The head of the Salt Lake Police Association has watched the country's outrage over the videos showing a nurse getting arrested for refusing to draw a man's blood without a warrant and has decided the correct response is to complain that the public got to see what its officers did.

Union head Stephen Hartney sent a letter to the city's mayor and police chief to complain video of the brief arrest of nurse Alex Wubbels has made "pariahs" of Det. Jeff Payne and his watch commander at the time of the incident, Lt. James Tracy.

Wubbels became an insta-celebrity on Labor Day weekend after she released police body camera footage showing Payne very forcefully arresting her at University of Utah Hospital because she refused his demand that she draw blood from an unconscious victim of a nasty high-speed car crash. The patient, William Gray, was not a suspect, nor involved in the chase, and Payne didn't have a warrant. Wubbels, surrounded by staff at the hospital, explained that she was not permitted to draw the man's blood. Payne arrested her, in what appeared on video to be sheer frustration at having been defied.

Payne and Tracy have been placed on leave while the case was investigated. A couple of weeks ago the city revealed an internal investigation and a civilian review board determined the two officers violated department policies.

Hartney this week complained the police body camera footage should not have been publicly released until the investigation was completed. From the Salt Lake Tribune:

The letter said the union was, at this point, not arguing or even discussing the merits of the allegations raised against the officers. "Rather we are solely concerned... with the 'investigatory process' which we believe has been corrupted."

The letter claims the city has not followed an "agreed upon and carefully scripted process" for investigating the conduct of police officers. At the news conference, Hartney focused on if the city should have released the footage so soon under the state's Government Records Access and Management Act (GRAMA), considering the release could have interfered with the internal affairs investigation.

The release of the body cam footage and information from the disciplinary investigation "has created a public furor which makes reasoned determinations difficult, if not impossible," the letter states.

The city, however, didn't release the videos. It agreed to a request by Wubbels to release the footage to her, following the law Hartney referenced. The city said it had no good reason to deny the video footage to Wubbels.

The two officers weren't even put on administrative leave until after Wubbels went public with the video footage.

What might have been forgotten in all of this is Wubbels released the video because she believed she was exposing a widespread problem of police bullying nurses into drawing blood without consent or a warrant.

And while Wubbels was pleased the Salt Lake City Police had been responsive to her claims of abuse, she and other hospital staff were concerned about other law enforcement agencies, including university police. Campus police did absolutely nothing during the arrest, and since then the hospital has implemented new policies to limit police access to parts of the hospital.

Public pressure and response is important to holding police officers accountable. They are public servants, and Hartney's responses, like we've seen from other police union leaders, misuse the concept of due process to try to conceal information from the people to whom the police are supposed to answer.

Yesterday we saw that a North Carolina law exempting body camera footage from public records requests was very clearly being used to try to shield police from exposure of conduct that might expose them to public criticism.

Gray, the car crash victim unable to consent to Payne's demand for a blood draw, died Monday while still in the hospital.


Poster Comment:

Gray, the car crash victim unable to consent to Payne's demand for a blood draw, died Monday while still in the hospital.

Will the cops who killed him be charged with manslaughter?

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


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#1. To: Deckard (#0) (Edited)

Gray, the car crash victim unable to consent to Payne's demand for a blood draw, died Monday while still in the hospital.

So he suffered terribly for a couple of months and died. Sad.

Will the cops who killed him be charged with manslaughter?

No. They have a no-pursuit policy in high speed chases. But if all they did was flip on their lights and pursue for a moment, they'll probably get away with it.

If they continued the pursuit at very high speed against a visibly reckless driver then a jury may make some big punitive award in a civil lawsuit by the widow. Chances are if that is the case that they will choose to settle the lawsuit before it goes to court.

The letter said the union was, at this point, not arguing or even discussing the merits of the allegations raised against the officers. "Rather we are solely concerned... with the 'investigatory process' which we believe has been corrupted."

What they oppose is the public routinely knowing what they do. They'd prefer to keep it under wraps and have the PD settle out of court before the public ever finds out anything, using non-disclosure settlements.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-28   9:39:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Tooconservative (#1)

What they oppose is the public routinely knowing what they do.

The video was inflammatory and added nothing to the investigation. It was released by the nurse solely to garner sympathy for the nurse who brought this on herself by resisting arrest.

This is no different than all the other videos presented here and elsewhere in the Internet -- aggrieved "victims" who go against law enforcement then record the aftermath, hoping for sympathy and maybe a couple of thousand dollars. I have zero sympathy for them. As my dad would say, "they got what they deserved".

misterwhite  posted on  2017-09-28   10:17:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: misterwhite (#2) (Edited)

We'll see how it turns out in coming months. We're not persuading each other, just repeating ourselves.

The only news, such as it is, is the police union trying to complain that the video was released at all, that the public can see how the cops try to intimidate and strongarm nurses and others even if they have no legal basis to do so (and in an accident case in which the SLCPD had absolutely no involvement or jurisdiction whatsoever).

But isn't that the whole point of body cams and recording cops? So that things just don't get swept under the rug and abusive and illegal practices continue?

We're in the court of public opinion here and you've chosen the losing side.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-28   10:29:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Tooconservative (#3)

that the public can see how the cops try to intimidate and strongarm nurses and others even if they have no legal basis to do so

IF the cop had no legal basis to do so, is that for the nurse to decide? Is the ER the place to decide it? The law, if applicable in this case, would only prevent the blood being used as evidence in a court of law. The judge decides that, not a nurse.

Now, she may have believed she had the moral basis. She may have believed it was hospital policy. She may have believed there was an agreement between the hospital and law enforcement.

And she WAS allowed to express all those beliefs. But, in the end, she was told (correctly or not) that a blood draw was legal and was gonna happen, that she was interfering, and that she was under arrest ("temporary forced detention", but that's not a category).

She then chose to start screaming and screeching and running away and resisting -- all the time she knew she was being recorded. What a performance, huh? How much do you think that was worth? $1 million?

misterwhite  posted on  2017-09-28   11:04:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: misterwhite (#2)

The video was inflammatory

Yes the pigs actions were reprehensible and inflammatory. The asshole should never have been a cop. He should have his ass kicked and be locked up for 15 years minimum.

He needs to be in a cell with the biggest black faggot in the prison.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-28   11:11:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: misterwhite (#4)

Now, she may have believed she had the moral basis. She may have believed it was hospital policy. She may have believed there was an agreement between the hospital and law enforcement.

You're a fucking idiot. I hope someone kicks your ass. We all know you deserve it.

What a pathetic person you are.

If you were drowning I would throw you a life preserver only because I don't know what you look like.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-28   11:13:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: misterwhite (#4)

What a performance, huh? How much do you think that was worth? $1 million?

50 million taken from piggy boy directly. Not the tax payers. That would be just.

It would teach assholes like this prick to quit breaking the law and harassing people.

I sincerely hope the pig ends up with a very loose asshole.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-28   11:15:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: misterwhite (#4)

You've posted all of that dozens of times already. You seem to have nothing new to say on the new content in this article. And I've lost interest. Don't reply to me further if you don't have something new to say on the actual article.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-28   11:25:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: A K A Stone (#5)

Yes the pigs actions were reprehensible and inflammatory. The asshole should never have been a cop. He should have his ass kicked and be locked up for 15 years minimum.

The most they could get him for is a false arrest and violation of her civil rights. He'll blame his supervisor (because he did on video at the time). The supervisor will say that the detective took his remarks too literally and it was a misunderstanding. And that no real harm was done because the nurse was released after 20 minutes, about 10 minutes after the supervisor arrived.

No way they get prison or jail time. Reprimands, fines, possibly forced to retire or booted from the force at most. And unlikely to lose their pensions.

But it is likely the nurse will get many millions in any civil lawsuit against the SLCPD.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-28   11:30:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Tooconservative (#8)

You've posted all of that dozens of times already.

And it still hasn't sunk in to your thick skull.

misterwhite  posted on  2017-09-28   12:07:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: misterwhite (#10)

Does that work in real life for you, to just harangue people dozens or hundreds of times, saying the exact same things over and over?

Maybe if you insult my thick skull, that will finally convince me. Yeah, sure.

And you probably wonder why you can't convince anyone, even here on a tiny forum. Gee, what a mystery.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-28   12:11:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: misterwhite, Tooconservative (#2)

The video was inflammatory and added nothing to the investigation. It was released by the nurse solely to garner sympathy for the nurse who brought this on herself by resisting arrest.

The nurse was right, the cop was wrong, and there is no argument to be made about it.

She can sue and collect.

The union is upset because SLC said they acted outside the job, and that leaves them with no qualified immunity. Nurse Wubbels can, and should, sue the cops directly.

nolu chan  posted on  2017-09-28   16:54:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: nolu chan (#12)

The union is upset because SLC said they acted outside the job, and that leaves them with no qualified immunity. Nurse Wubbels can, and should, sue the cops directly.

Hung them out to dry, eh? Maybe they were not acting in any official capacity as authorized agents of the Logan PD or the Utah highway patrol after all.

After they got refused the first time and Logan PD said, "that's okay, we can get it elsewhere", I don't see how they had any authority to do anything at all, let alone arrest a nurse. And that scenario would leave them without a shield from SLCPD against a lawsuit.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-28   16:57:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Tooconservative (#13)

Maybe they were not acting in any official capacity as authorized agents of the Logan PD or the Utah highway patrol after all.

They were an SLC Detective and Lieutenant. SLC disowned them and the enormous civil suit looming. The Logan PD could not authorize the SLC police to do anything in SLC. They could ask, but they had no authority to delegate. It is a certainty they did not ask to get the nurse arrested.

After they got refused the first time and Logan PD said, "that's okay, we can get it elsewhere", I don't see how they had any authority to do anything at all, let alone arrest a nurse. And that scenario would leave them without a shield from SLCPD against a lawsuit.

The couldn't have had authority to do anything. Even a polite request was a request for the nurse to violate HIIPA law. A demand to stick a needle in the guy's arm was a demand to violate constitutional law.

The way this was done, I very seriously suspect this was not an isolated incident. There may be more cases that can be brought. SLC would have an idea about how big this might grow.

nolu chan  posted on  2017-09-28   18:29:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: nolu chan (#14)

I hope Nurse Wubbels has a good real estate agent. I think she'll soon own three houses in Salt Lake and should sell all three and buy one newer house instead.

If they lose their houses to the nurse they falsely arrested, most people would be satisfied.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-28   21:36:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Tooconservative (#1)

They have a no-pursuit policy in high speed chases

No what they have is a reason called "totality of circumstances" which gives them carte blanche to proceed to pursue in hot pursuit cases.

goldilucky  posted on  2017-09-28   21:52:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: goldilucky (#16)

No what they have is a reason called "totality of circumstances" which gives them carte blanche to proceed to pursue in hot pursuit cases.

I read that the Utah highway patrol has the policy I described. I read this in several Utah newspapers, posted about them here at LF.

Good4Utah: See How UHP Troopers Train for High Speed Driving and Pursuits

We have reported on chases involving speeds well over 100 miles per hour. We have seen chases where the driver is going the wrong way on the interstate. And we have seen pursuits where the Trooper has to actually make contact with dangerous driver and where a PIT or Pursuit Intervention Technique is used to stop a vehicle. "Every pursuit is inherently risky. No matter where you are." Sgt. Allen says it isn't so much about the speed when it comes to engaging in a pursuit. He says UHP policy requires Troopers to make a judgment call about safety. "Once the risk to the public outweighs the benefit of catching the suspect we will stop - terminate right there cause it is just not worth it."

That's sounds a lot like no-pursuit to me. Every PD and state seem to have a different take.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-28   22:32:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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