Title: *BRUTAL TRUTH DEBATE*: Christian vs. Muslim; Christ vs. Muhammad/Bible vs. Koran (Fascinating Listen) Source:
You Tube URL Source:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVU3 ... ist&p=8DF2F55C1F8C5A75&index=2 Published:Feb 28, 2008 Author:Dave Hunt Post Date:2009-12-13 03:17:12 by Liberator Keywords:Christianity, Islam, debate Views:63831 Comments:164
This is a debate between Dave Hunt and Shabir Ally in Toronto Canada in 2008. Christianity vs. Islam.
Hunt's credentials and scholarship are impeccable as is his courage. As the author of over 4,000,000 books (of which three I own), you will see and hear him NOT mince any words about the deeply flawed Muhammad, and how deeply flawed the Koran is. No candy-coated PC-Speak here.
He compares and contrasts the Koran vs. Bible convincingly, with conviction and armed with facts. Chances are none of us will ever see another non-compromising debate of this kind ever.
This is Part 3 which blends seamlessly into Part 4, into Part 5 and so on. Hunt's politely yet firmly continues to delve into the stark differences between the two belief systems.
#1. To: mel, Mad Dog, A K A Stone, Joe Snuffy, GarySpFC, BobCeleste, Tater, Gater, All (#0)
I promise you this is worth watching and listening to.
Hunt reminds his Muslim opponent that their debate would NOT be able to have taken place in Saudi Arabia; That the Islam religion is "anti-Christ"; and in general educates the viewer on some real oddities that are NEVER mentioned in a public venue (as cameras pan an obviously agitated Muslim portion of the audience.)
#9. To: Liberator, all, *Religious History and Issues* (#1)
I had just started a debate with Mel and Tater on another thread regarding this subject. I am deeply involved in Christian apologetics, and have heard of both Hunt and Pipes. However, the dean on this subject is Norman L. Geisler. I highly recommend Answering Islam: The Crescent in Light of the Cross. by Norman L Geisler and Abdul Saleeb.
After the events of September 11, the issue of violence and religion has once again come into intense discussions and debate. Although various political, socioeconomic and cultural factors have significantly contributed to the rise of violence and terrorism in contemporary fundamentalist Islam, we cannot ignore the religious dimension of this violence that goes back to the very heart and origin of Islam.
The point that we’d like to make is quite simple. While many Muslims are peace-loving, nonetheless, those who commit acts of violence and terror in the name of God can find ample justification for their actions, based on the teachings of the Qur’an and the sayings and examples from prophet Muhammad himself! We have often heard in the media that the relationship between Muslim terrorists and Islam is like that of KKK and Christianity. This analogy is clearly false. Christians who have engaged in violence are betraying the explicit teachings and examples of Jesus Christ. On the other hand, Muslims who take upon themselves to destroy their alleged enemies in the name of God can rightly claim to be following the commands of God in the Qur’an and imitating their prophet as their role model.
Our point, of course, should not be taken to imply that all faithful and devout Muslims must become violent in order to be true to the teachings of Islam. No doubt the majority of the Muslim world condemns acts of terror and violence. There are many schools of thought in Islam with various and often conflicting interpretations of the Qur’an. However, the important distinction that we are making is this: The minority groups in Islam who resort to violence are not an aberration to Islam but in fact can legitimately claim to be working within the basic parameters of Islamic Jihad. We will now turn to the evidence in support of our claim.
SUPPORT FOR VIOLENCE IN THE QUR’AN
The following are only some of the verses in the Qur’an that can and have been used in the history of Islam in support of violence in the name of God and the glories of martyrdom in a holy war.
2:190–193 “Fight in the cause of God those who fight you … And slay them wherever ye catch them … And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God … ” 2:216 “Fighting is prescribed for you and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth and ye know not.” 2:224 “Then fight in the cause of God and know that God heareth and knoweth all things.” 3:157–158 “And if ye are slain or die in the way of God, forgiveness and mercy from God are far better than all they could amass. And if ye die, or are slain, Lo! It is unto God that ye are brought together.” 3:169 “Think not of those who are slain in God’s way as dead. Nay, they live finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord.” 3:195 “ … Those who have … fought or been slain, verily I will blot out from them their iniquities and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath; a reward from the presence of God … ” 4:101 “ … For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.” 4:74, 75 “Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of God whether he is slain or gets victory, soon shall we give him a reward of great (value). Those who believe fight in the cause of God and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil, so fight ye against the friends of Satan, feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.” 4:89 “They but wish that ye should reject faith as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they. But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them … ” 4:95 “Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt and those who strive and fight in the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than those who sit (at home).” 5:36 “The punishment of those who wage war against God and His apostle and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land. That is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.” 5:54 “O ye who believe. Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.” 8:12–17 “Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): ‘I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips off them. This because they contend against God and his apostle. If any contend against God and his apostle, God is strict in punishment … O ye who believe. When ye meet the unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day, unless it be a stratagem of war … he draws on himself the wrath of God and his abode is Hell, an evil refuge (indeed).’ ” 8:59–60 “Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly). They will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of God and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know … ” 8:65 “O apostle! Rouse the believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred. If a hundred they will vanquish a thousand of the unbelievers, for these are a people without understanding.” 9:5 “ … fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) … ” 9:14 “Fight them, and God will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame. … ” 9:29 “Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and his apostle nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay the Jizya [religious tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” 47:4 “Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks, at length when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them).… but if it had been God’s will, he could certainly have exacted retribution from them (himself), but (he lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of God, he will never let their deeds be lost.” 61:4 “Truly God loves those who fight in His cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure.”
A simple reading of such Qur’anic passages makes it obvious how easy it is for many Muslims to feel hatred and enmity against Jews, Christians, and other non- Muslims. Although many Muslims are very fond of quoting some of the more “open- minded” and “inclusive” verses of the Qur’an, one cannot ignore the weight and impact of the above passages on a devout Muslim who wants to find and obey the will of God as found in the Qur’an.
I had just started a debate with Mel and Tater on another thread regarding this subject ...
You have made some excellent points here, Gary - and at first blush, I can find common grounds with your statements.
However, since it is my nature to do thorough research and to give concentrated deep thought before posting a reaction - I am therefore going to need to take some time to digest the informtion you presented.
I want to and I will get back to you on this - Please give me some time, it should take a while since I have guests coming soon.
