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The GOSPEL of the ALIENS | Fallen Angels | Giants | Anunnaki The IMAGE of the BEAST Revealed (REV 13) - WARNING: Not for Everyone WEF Calls for AI to Replace Voters: ‘Why Do We Need Elections?’ The OCCULT Burger king EXPOSED PANERA BREAD Antichrist message EXPOSED The OCCULT Cheesecake Factory EXPOSED Status: Not Logged In; Sign In Religion See other Religion Articles Title: Obama on DC Jihadis: "Fiercely loyal Muslims" Source: Atlas Shrugs URL Source: http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/ ... is-fiercely-loyal-muslims.html Published: Dec 11, 2009 Author: staff Post Date: 2009-12-11 09:48:16 by Joe Snuffy Keywords: War on Terror, Obama, US Muslim terrorists Views: 36306 Comments: 91 Obama on DC Jihadis: "Fiercely loyal Muslims" Crazy, man. Check out the TOTUS's response today to the devastating news of five DC Muslim students tracked down and arrested in Pakistan. They were plotting jihad. What did Pres Moe say? He speaks about fiercely loyal Muslims ....loyal to whom exactly? (vid hat tip KGS) Obama spent a month in Pakistan during his college years ....perhaps he is, uh, sympathetic. Here is a sampling of different posts in the past three months of fiercely loyal Muslim activity here in the good old USA: Chicago Muslim Charged In Mumbai Islamic Massacre Planned More Terror Attacks in India AMERICAN JIHAD: FBI INVESTIGATING 5 MISSING MUSLIM STUDENTS IN DC, POSSIBLE ARREST IN PAKISTAN “I said he was acting...like a terrorist,” roommate of Jihadi who Murdered Binghamton Professor Muslims of America Domestic Terror Jihad training camp videos to be released Chicago Jihadis who Plotted to bomb Danish Cartoon Publisher at Halal Slaughterhouse Tied to Mumbai Muslim Sentenced to Six-year jail term in Plot to Blow up Sears Tower: "Islamic terrorism is one of the most tremendous problem that this country now confronts ... this defendant took an oath to Al-Qaeda" Beltway Jihadi Sniper John Muhammad: Death to the Jihadi Tonight Fort Hood Jihad Going Muslim on a Photographer outside Michigan Mosque Son of an Imam Killed in Gun Battle with the FBI in Detroit is Arrested Michigan Mosque leader killed during Islamic gun battle with fed Hush Hush: Huge Fed/FBI Raid on Chicago Halal Goat Meat Slaughterhouse Boston Muslim Terrorist Son of MAS (Muslim American Society) Leader Another Conviction of Muslims Engaged in Plotting Islamic Attacks Against American Overseas NY Imam Indicted in NYC Terror Attack Plot Massive Muslim Attack Averted: "plot to kill two prominent US politicians and carry out a holy war by attacking shoppers in US malls and American troops in Iraq" Obama First Female Veiled Islamist Appointee, Dalia Mogahed, Promotes Sharia, Says it's "Misunderstood "New York Muslim indicted for plotting to kill U.S. troopswww.dallasnews.com/shared...ombarrest.1b177db8b.html" target="_blank"> www.dallasnews.com/shared...ombarrest.1b177db8b.html" target="_blank">FBI arrests Jordanian for downtown Dallas bomb plot... NYC: Muslims Protest "RACIAL PROFILING" in wake of arrests in major jihad terror plot www.reuters.com/article/m...ws/idUSN2447383520090924" target="_blank">Illinois man charged in plot to bomb federal offices... www.reuters.com/article/d...ws/idUSTRE58N6YT20090924" target="_blank">Terror suspects accused of targeting Marine base in Quantico... cbs3.com/local/SEPTA.Broad.Street.2.1206878.html" target="_blank">Men vanish after taking photos of Philly subway system... Click for Full Text! Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest #1. To: Joe Snuffy (#0) They were plotting jihad. It's amazing that most Americans do NOT know what the term Jihad means. If they did, they would stop using it as a terrorist act. Jihad describes the ethics and morals of the Muslims. Jihad is the internal fight between right and wrong, moral and immoral, selfishness and selflessness, etc. The inner peach and equilibrium is then reflected outward in an attempt to create peace and harmony in society. Jihad is not about waging wars on others. Jihad does promote self-defense. For all the sick twisted freaks committing acts of violence in the name of Islam, the true Muslims know Allah will send them to hell as they are in direct violation of Allah's commandments given to the people through the prophet Mohammad, recorded in the Qur'an. Every group of people has extremists that carry out atrocities against other people or even their own people. Some do it in the name of one religion or another and some do it in the name of a race or a country. Some are simply psycho freaks. Happy Birthday Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone! mel  posted on  2009-12-11   11:40:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #2. To: mel (#1) Bull shiite Islam does not mean peace it means submission to Alla aka Islam by whatever means necessary... It is a religion of death and Baal worship...demonically inspired Joe Snuffy  posted on  2009-12-11   11:58:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #3. To: Joe Snuffy (#2) That is of course what people expect you to say. It's been engraved in your brain and nothing will ever enlighten you. We must continue to believe the stereotypes and lables that all Muslims are evil and wicked because to actually learn something and tell the truth would be too difficult to do. If you ever actually met a real Muslim you would automatically see the person as evil and the person would never be able to convince you otherwise even if it was the nicest, most decent person you ever met. Keep telling the blacks in the ghetto that they're worthless and will never be anything more than criminal drug dealers/addicts and that is exactly what they will become. Happy Birthday Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone! mel  posted on  2009-12-11   12:07:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #4. To: All (#3) Most illegal immigrants are Catholics which means the Catholics have staged the greatest invasion of the US of all times. The Catholics are illegal loving, criminal scum and they must be stopped along with the Islamics by any means necessary. Think about it, Catholic priests are known to be pedophiles. Catholic Churches offer illegals sancturary. They are evil. /SARCASM Happy Birthday Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone! mel  posted on  2009-12-11   12:16:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #5. To: All (#4) I'm going to go blow up a building and say I did it in the name of Islam. Everyone will believe me. No one would ever question my true motives as it is already assumed all over the US that anytime anything like that happens some Muslim had to be involved because a person of any other religion would never do such a thing. /SARCASM Happy Birthday Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone! mel  posted on  2009-12-11   12:22:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #6. To: Joe Snuffy (#2) Islam does not mean peace it means submission to Alla aka Islam by whatever means necessary... It is a religion of death and Baal worship...demonically inspired For one to thoroughly comprehend the phenomenon of modern Islamic terrorism and to combat that phenomenon - it is necessary to study why and how its rise is a political reaction to imperialism. To fight one’s enemy, one must know one’s enemy and simply arriving at a decisive conclusion that “all” Muslims are “bad” Muslims and “all” Muslims because they are "bab" practice terrorism - isn’t much of an combative ammunition cache to have assess to. To begin the fight against modern Islamic terrorism, one must dispel the notion that terrorism is factually based in culture, rather than based in politics. OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-11   13:03:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #7. To: Joe Snuffy (#0) Moderate Mammal  posted on  2009-12-11   17:37:15 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #8. To: Moderate Mammal (#7) Muslim Mammal, sign holder extraordinaire,....which one are you? What's the difference between Racism_Boot's mouth and anal pore? There isn't any, they both spew gas and feces. Ibluafartsky  posted on  2009-12-11   18:06:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #9. To: mel (#1) Every group of people has extremists that carry out atrocities against other people or even their own people. Some do it in the name of one religion or another and some do it in the name of a race or a country. Some are simply psycho freaks. Reeeeallly, Teach? You mean Muslims and Christians are the same after all? Wow, you ARE an Airhead. Liberator  posted on  2009-12-11   21:10:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #10. To: Joe Snuffy, mel (#2) Islam does not mean peace it means submission to Alla aka Islam by whatever means necessary... It is a religion of death and Baal worship...demonically inspired How dare you question our new PHD in Religious Propaganda? Mel studied soooo hard and for sooo long. Islam is a "Religion of Peace." The lack of terrorism by Muslims is universally well-known; Their tolerance, charity, generosity, mental stability, and tradition of welcoming diversity in ALL Muslim nations is widely accepted, Joe. Liberator  posted on  2009-12-11   21:18:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #11. To: Joe Snuffy (#0) He [The Kenyan Muslim President] speaks about fiercely loyal Muslims ....loyal to whom exactly? To Satan? To the insane voices in their heads? To those who are "loyal" to their mantra of "DEATH TO THE INFIDEL!!!" America-Hating Hussein strokes Islam whenever possible. Liberator  posted on  2009-12-11   21:22:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #12. To: Liberator, Mel (#9) (Edited) You mean Muslims and Christians are the same after all? Is that what she meant? Hmm ... Let me go back and read it again. Okay, I did. I don’t see where she meant to say that Islamic Allah and Christian God are the same. We all should know that they in fact are not. They are even extremely difficult to compare. As it is also even very difficult to compare Christianity within Christian religion, because there is such a wide range of beliefs and practices among various wings of Christianity: Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox churches, I think she was talking about there being extremist in all religions. If we stop and think about it, I am sure we can find some, maybe many, examples. Let’s see, I am thinking for instance of the so-called “Army of God” in the U.S. which condones the killing of medical personnel who are involved in abortions. Yes, It is unfortunate, but there are extremists in every group. OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-11   21:40:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #13. To: Tater, mel (#12) Me: You mean Muslims and Christians are the same after all? Is that what she meant? Hmm ... Let me go back and read it again. Okay, I did. I don’t see where she meant to say that Islamic Allah and Christian God are the same. Mel: "Every group of people has extremists that carry out atrocities against other people or even their own people. Some do it in the name of one religion or another and some do it in the name of a race or a country. Some are simply psycho freaks." And NO "group of people" are anywhere NEAR extremist or deliver more terrorism against other people than...ISLAM. She is a Muslim Apologist. Yes, It is unfortunate, but there are extremists in every group. Yes, but it's unfortunate that in 99% of the cases, the "extremists" wreaking havoc upon civilized man happen to be MUSLIM. Precisely BECAUSE promoting violence and committing murder are strong tenets of their Cult. Liberator  posted on  2009-12-11   21:51:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #14. To: Tater (#12) Let’s see, I am thinking for instance of the so-called “Army of God” in the U.S. which condones the killing of medical personnel who are involved in abortions. Bullshit.........And just how many Medical professionals have been murdered in the name of stopping abortions. Your logic only works if they were murdering people not even connected to the abortion industry in the name of converting everyone to their beliefs and besides that many non religious types believe that killing the unborn is the murder of a human being and should stopped. Gater  posted on  2009-12-11   22:00:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #15. To: Liberator (#13) ...it's unfortunate that in 99% of the cases, the "extremists" wreaking havoc upon civilized man happen to be MUSLIM... Approximately what percentage? 99% – Where did you get that statistic? The number is obviously high, but that high? Did you just make up that number? I will say that their practice of ungodly politics is usually thinly veiled under an obvious and unfortunate façade of counterfeit spiritualism, while the inconsistency of their action and depravity of spirit contradict their endless claims of godliness. OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-11   22:10:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #16. To: Gater (#14) I believe we are speaking about "definition" and not "degree" at this time. The Army of God (AOG) is defined as an extremist anti-abortion organization that sanctions the use of force to combat abortion in the United States. That is all I was saying. OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-11   22:16:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #17. To: Tater (#12) Exactly. Happy Birthday Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone! mel  posted on  2009-12-11   23:25:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #18. To: Gater (#14) Your logic only works if they were murdering people not even connected to the abortion industry in the name of converting everyone to their beliefs Have you ever heard of the Holy Wars? There are many accounts of such things happening in World history that didn't include Muslims. Atrocities occur all the time but no one pays attention to them unless the perpetrator claims to be Muslim these days. Just as not all Catholic Priests are pedophiles and not all Mormen men are polygamists, not all Muslims are radical killers. Not all early Americans were slave holders. Not all white people supported the oppression of black people. Not all Hispanics are illegal and not all illegals are from Mexico. Not everyone with a Hispanic last name is Hispanic, nor do all of them speak Spanish. Not all Asians are smart either. Happy Birthday Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone! mel  posted on  2009-12-11   23:45:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #19. To: All (#18) "Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians...and (all) who believe in God and the last day and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." The Qur'an, 2:62 According to the Qur'an, Muslims are to accept other religions and live in peace among them. Just as there are those who call themselves Christians who do not follow God's commands, there are those who call themselves Muslims who do not follow Allah's commands. Since somebody felt like bringing up Christians.... Listed are only events that solely occurred on command or participation of church authorities or were committed in the name of Christianity. (List incomplete) Ancient Pagans •As soon as Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire by imperial edict (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed. •Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain. •Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis. •Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468] •Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468] •Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469] According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..." •In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights. •In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466] •The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415. [DO19-25] Mission -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- •Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30] •Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223] •15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Number of victims unknown. [DO30] •16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde". Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225] Crusades (1095-1291) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- •First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41] •Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23] •9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then Turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27] •Until January 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30] •After 6/3/98 Antiochia (then Turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women and children) killed. [WW32-35] Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60] •Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36] Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (Jewish, Muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40] In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude." •The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79] •Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of Palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". [WW41] •Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. Thousands of heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45] •Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148] •Crusades (1095-1291) Ê2;Estimated totals: Ã2;Wertham: 1,000,000 Ã2;Charles Mackay, Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds (1841): 2,000,000 Europeans killed. [http://www.bootlegbooks.com/NonFiction/Mackay/PopDelusions/chap09.html] Ã2;Aletheia, The Rationalist's Manual: 5,000,000 Ê2;Individual Events: Ã2;Davies: Crusaders killed up to 8,000 Jews in Rhineland Ã2;Paul Johnson A History of the Jews (1987): 1,000 Jewish women in Rhineland comm. suicide to avoid the mob, 1096. Ã2;Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, v.5, 6 Ã2;1st Crusade: 300,000 Eur. k at Battle of Nice [Nicea]. Ã2;Crusaders vs. Solimon of Roum: 4,000 Christians, 3,000 Moslems Ã2;1098, Fall of Antioch: 100,000 Moslems massacred. Ã2;50,000 Pilgrims died of disease. Ã2;1099, Fall of Jerusalem: 70,000 Moslems massacred. Ã2;Siege of Tiberias: 30,000 Christians k. Ã2;Siege of Tyre: 1,000 Turks Ã2;Richard the Lionhearted executes 3,000 Moslem POWs. Ã2;1291: 100,000 Christians k after fall of Acre. Ã2;Fall of Christian Antioch: 17,000 massacred. Ã2;[TOTAL: 677,000 listed in these episodes here.] Ã2;Catholic Encyclopedia (1910) [http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/] Ã2;Jaffa: 20,000 Christians massacred, 1197 Ã2;Sorokin estimates that French, English & Imperial German Crusaders lost a total of 3,600 in battle. Ã2;1st C (1096-99): 400 Ã2;2nd C (1147-49): 750 Ã2;3rd C (1189-91): 930 Ã2;4th C (1202-04): 120 Ã2;5th C (1228-29): 600 Ã2;7th C (1248-54): 700 Ã2;James Trager, The People's Chronology (1992) Ã2;1099: Crusaders slaughter 40,000 inhabs of Jerusalem. Dis/starv reduced Crusaders from 300,000 to 60,000. Ã2;1147: 2nd Crusades begins with 500,000. "Most" lost to starv./disease/battle. Ã2;1190: 500 Jews massacred in York. Ã2;1192: 3rd Crusade reduced from 100,000 to 5,000 through famine, plagues and desertions in campaign vs Antioch. Ã2;1212: Children's Crusade loses some 50,000. Ã2;[TOTAL: Just in these incidents, it appears the Europeans lost around 650,000.] Ê2;TOTAL: When I take all the individual death tolls listed here, weed out the duplicates, fill in the blanks, apply Occam ("Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate"), etc. I get a very rough total of 1½ M deaths in the Crusades. Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (Jewish, Muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40] In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude." •The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79] •Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of Palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". [WW41] •Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. Thousands of heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45] •Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148] •Crusades (1095-1291) Ê2;Estimated totals: Ã2;Wertham: 1,000,000 Ã2;Charles Mackay, Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds (1841): 2,000,000 Europeans killed. [http://www.bootlegbooks.com/NonFiction/Mackay/PopDelusions/chap09.html] Ã2;Aletheia, The Rationalist's Manual: 5,000,000 Ê2;Individual Events: Ã2;Davies: Crusaders killed up to 8,000 Jews in Rhineland Ã2;Paul Johnson A History of the Jews (1987): 1,000 Jewish women in Rhineland comm. suicide to avoid the mob, 1096. Ã2;Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, v.5, 6 Ã2;1st Crusade: 300,000 Eur. k at Battle of Nice [Nicea]. Ã2;Crusaders vs. Solimon of Roum: 4,000 Christians, 3,000 Moslems Ã2;1098, Fall of Antioch: 100,000 Moslems massacred. Ã2;50,000 Pilgrims died of disease. Ã2;1099, Fall of Jerusalem: 70,000 Moslems massacred. Ã2;Siege of Tiberias: 30,000 Christians k. Ã2;Siege of Tyre: 1,000 Turks Ã2;Richard the Lionhearted executes 3,000 Moslem POWs. Ã2;1291: 100,000 Christians k after fall of Acre. Ã2;Fall of Christian Antioch: 17,000 massacred. Ã2;[TOTAL: 677,000 listed in these episodes here.] Ã2;Catholic Encyclopedia (1910) [http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/] Ã2;Jaffa: 20,000 Christians massacred, 1197 Ã2;Sorokin estimates that French, English & Imperial German Crusaders lost a total of 3,600 in battle. Ã2;1st C (1096-99): 400 Ã2;2nd C (1147-49): 750 Ã2;3rd C (1189-91): 930 Ã2;4th C (1202-04): 120 Ã2;5th C (1228-29): 600 Ã2;7th C (1248-54): 700 Ã2;James Trager, The People's Chronology (1992) Ã2;1099: Crusaders slaughter 40,000 inhabs of Jerusalem. Dis/starv reduced Crusaders from 300,000 to 60,000. Ã2;1147: 2nd Crusades begins with 500,000. "Most" lost to starv./disease/battle. Ã2;1190: 500 Jews massacred in York. Ã2;1192: 3rd Crusade reduced from 100,000 to 5,000 through famine, plagues and desertions in campaign vs Antioch. Ã2;1212: Children's Crusade loses some 50,000. Ã2;[TOTAL: Just in these incidents, it appears the Europeans lost around 650,000.] Ê2;TOTAL: When I take all the individual death tolls listed here, weed out the duplicates, fill in the blanks, apply Occam ("Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate"), etc. I get a very rough total of 1½ M deaths in the Crusades. Religious Wars -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- •15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain. [DO30] •1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into action). [DO31] •1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. [DO31] Between 5000 and 6000 Protestants were drowned by Spanish Catholic Troops, "a disaster the burghers of Emden first realized when several thousand broad- brimmed Dutch hats floated by." [SH216] •1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31] •17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, "cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals... and then dumped him into the river [...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left ... to the gallows of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows'." [SH191] •17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191] •17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32] Jews -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- •Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians.Number of Jews slain unknown. •In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450] • 694 17. Council of Toledo: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454] •1010 The Bishop of Limoges (France) had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453] •1096 First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered, maybe 12.000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ] •1147 Second Crusade: Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57] •1189/90 Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked. [DO40] •1235, Fulda/Germany: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41] •1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41] •1290 Bohemia (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41] •1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41] •1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41] •1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42] •1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42] •1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all Jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear. •1492 In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492. [MM470-476] •1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain. [DO43] And that's not even half of it. No - Christians are not bad. People are bad. I apologize for no evil person. Happy Birthday Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone! mel  posted on  2009-12-12   0:06:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #20. To: mel, liberator (#19) (Edited) Mel: And that's not even half of it. No - Christians are not bad. People are bad. I apologize for no evil person. Tater: Yes, It is unfortunate, but there are extremists in every group. Liberator: Yes ... in 99% of the cases, the "extremists" wreaking havoc ... happen to be MUSLIM. Terrorism can be defined as simply an extreme form of political expression. Given that terrorist attacks occur most often in countries which have despotic regimes, or in which no other form of political protest is available, these people use the only means they can of getting their point across. To some, terrorism is even an acceptable form of political expression when there is no other option available. There are many instances where people arbitrarily label those terrorists who support our value systems to be heroes, while those who oppose our value systems are just dogs murdering innocent people. The complete hypocrisy of this view means that there can be no choice of condemnation when we realize that terrorism is an expression of beliefs, whether we like it or not, and that numerous countries, considered "good" by our current value paradigm have been founded through terrorist actions. A partial list of designated terrorist organizations is presented below – Point out one Muslim group among them: Communist Party of India (Maoist); Communist Party of the Philippines/New People's Army; Continuity Irish Republican Army; Cumann na mBan; All Tripura Tiger Force; Babbar Khalsa; Babbar Khalsa International; Baluchistan Liberation Army; Communist Party of the Philippines/New People's Army; Continuity Irish Republican Army; Khmer Rouge/The Party of Democratic Kampuchea; Manuel Rodriguez Patriotic Front (FPMR); National Liberation Army (ELN)— Colombia; Zviadists; Revolutionary Nuclei (RN) a.k.a. Revolutionary Cells; Revolutionary Organization 17 November (17 November); Revolutionary People's Struggle (ELA); Morzanist Patriotic Front (FPM); Kach and Kahane Chai; Aum Supreme Truth (Aum) a.k.a. Aum Shinrikyo, Aleph; Chukaku-Ha (Nucleus or Middle Core Faction); Japanese Red Army (JRA) a.k.a. Anti-Imperialist International Brigade (AIIB); Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA) a.k.a. Continuity Army Council; h Republican Army (IRA) a.k.a. Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA), the Provos; Loyalist Volunteer Force (LVF); Real IRA (RIRA) a.k.a. True IRA; Red Hand Defenders (RHD); Sendero Luminoso (Shining Path); Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement (MRTA); Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG); Alex Boncayao Brigade (ABB); New People's Army (NPA); Army for the Liberation of Rwanda (ALIR), a.k.a. Interahamwe, Former Armed Forces (ex-FAR); Revolutionary United Front (RUF); Qibla and People Against Gangsterism and Drugs (PAGAD); Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA), a.k.a. Euzkadi Ta Askatasuna; First of October Antifascist Resistance Group (GRAPO), Grupo de Resistencia Anti-Fascista Premero de Octubre; Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) Other known front organizations: World Tamil Association (WTA), World Tamil Movement (WTM), the Federation of Associations of Canadian Tamils (FACT), the Ellalan Force, the Sangilian Force; Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK); Revolutionary People's Liberation Party/Front (DHKP/C) a.k.a. Devrimci Sol (Revolutionary Left), Dev Sol ... the list goes on … on … and on ... AND ON … OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   5:24:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #21. To: Tater (#20) Terrorism can be defined as simply an extreme form of political expression. Weekly Jihad Report Nov 28 - Dec 04 Jihad Attacks: 24 Dead Bodies: 144 Critically Injured: 295 What's the difference between Racism_Boot's mouth and anal pore? There isn't any, they both spew gas and feces. Ibluafartsky  posted on  2009-12-12   5:33:21 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #22. To: Ibluafartsky (#21) (Edited) Terrorism can be defined as simply an extreme form of political expression. Weekly Jihad Report Nov 28 - Dec 04 Jihad Attacks: 24 Dead Bodies: 144 Critically Injured: 295 Terrorism is defined by political scientists as the use of politically- motivated violence against civilians. Terrorism is not supposed to mean "violence against the state" and certainly not "violence against soldiers." It technically also doesn't mean violence directed against military targets where civilians are also hurt/killed. Using "terrorism" as a specific term is becoming less and less meaningful - however, there doesn't seem to be a good replacement term. OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   6:01:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #23. To: Tater (#22) Using "terrorism" as a specific term is becoming less and less meaningful It has become "indiscriminate slaughter of men, women and children" because of religious fanaticism. What's the difference between Racism_Boot's mouth and anal pore? There isn't any, they both spew gas and feces. Ibluafartsky  posted on  2009-12-12   7:08:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #24. To: Ibluafartsky (#23) (Edited) It has become "indiscriminate slaughter of men, women and children" because of religious fanaticism. Are you clubbing Terrorism with Religion? I am simply making an attempt to throw open my concerns about what the world is leading to. Some mass scale violence these days can of course be linked to some religion or ethnic group. But terrorism is not singularily a product of religious fanaticism. The term "terrorism" means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by sub-national groups or clandestine agents usually intended to influence an audience. All terrorist acts are motivated by two things. First, terrorist acts are motivated by social and political injustice. This is to say that people choose terrorism when they perceive or realize a social, political or historical wrong and they are trying to right the wrong. Secondly, the belief that violence or its threat will be effective, and usher in change is also a motivating factor behind terrorist acts. Another way of saying this is to say that the belief that violent means justify the ends. History has shown that many terrorists sincerely chose violence after long deliberation, because they felt they had no choice. Terrorism can only be countered through constructive efforts on the part of all the political machinery and religious body in the World. Am I making any sense? This is really basic stuff. OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   7:40:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #25. To: Gater, Tater (#14) Tater-Tot: "Let’s see, I am thinking for instance of the so-called “Army of God” in the U.S. which condones the killing of medical personnel who are involved in abortions." Bullshit.........And just how many Medical professionals have been murdered in the name of stopping abortions. Great response to Tater-Tot's 100% pure bullsh*t. Come on Tater - where's the citation of your dopey assertion?? Aaahh, could it be NO WHERE? FAIL. Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   12:41:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #26. To: Tater (#15) 99% – Where did you get that statistic? The number is obviously high, but that high? The statistic is artificial LOW if anything. It's probably closer to 99.997% Did you just make up that number? No, it's according to any Muslim Terrorist Mosque scorecard. They get pissed when the stats falls below 99%. I will say that their practice of ungodly politics is usually thinly veiled under an obvious and unfortunate façade of counterfeit spiritualism, while the inconsistency of their action and depravity of spirit contradict their endless claims of godliness. Thank you, Professor. I agree with your assessment that Islam is indeed a Cult of Satanic Loons. Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   12:48:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #27. To: Tater (#20) More people have died at the hands of the non-religious than all religions combined. That is a great list you have found. It is easy to say the atrocities of today are all carried out by Muslims. That's whatthe Government and media have trained people to believe. It's funny that they always talk about not trusting the Government or the media but they seem to believe many things we are told by them. This world is going to hell, as with most of the people in it. Happy Birthday Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone! mel  posted on  2009-12-12   13:13:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #28. To: mel_living (#19) According to the Qur'an, Muslims are to accept other religions and live in peace among them. Just as there are those who call themselves Christians who do not follow God's commands, there are those who call themselves Muslims who do not follow Allah's commands. You know - combining Grampa's cough syrup with desert shrooms MIGHT be an excuse for your advocacy as a Muslim Apologist, but I know better; You're even more a dopey airhead than ever imagined. Those much-ballyhooed "religion" classes didn't help you much. The doctrine of Jesus Christ does NOT condone murder, violence, and conversion by the sword IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST...Never did; Never will. Now on the otherhand, what's done "In The Name of Allah" is quite the different story. What DID you "learn" at those classes, Genius? (hint: get a refund) That you've managed to cut & paste an historical "Christian atrocities" time-chart is supposed to be impressive as a counter-point for Islam's murderous Cult? Hilarious and pathetic as the same time. Let's see - you've rolled back the Time Machine back to....350 years ago? Then back to 300 A.D.? What a dumbass. Tribes and humans have been murdering each other before that since....FOREVER. But comparing the last "violent Christian" events of 350 YEARS AGO to contemporary Islam ?? HA!! And you'd citing no one BUT Christians?? Fraud. Why don't you cut and paste recent history of Islam, you pathetic Muslim Apologist? AND the verses of Islam condoning and demanding murder, harm AND submission to those who do not yield to Islam. IN THE LAST 50 YEARS, Bimbo. Geez - my bathroom doorknob has more intellect than you. And honesty. And integrity. Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   13:21:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #29. To: Tater Tot, Gater (#20) Whether we like it or not, and that numerous countries, considered "good" by our current value paradigm have been founded through terrorist actions. Thank you, Abdul for the civics lesson. A partial list of designated terrorist organizations is presented below – Point out one Muslim group among them... Yeah - you're right - what are we thinkin'?? ISLAM is actually a "Religion of Peace." Oh...Which of the above groups do you and mel belong to or have you both converted to the 'Religion of Peace'? P.S. - Didn't you claim “Army of God” was a terrorist group as well in an earlier post? You know - the one in which you describes it as one "in the U.S. which condones the killing of medical personnel who are involved in abortions"? Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   13:30:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #30. To: mel, all (#27) It is easy to say the atrocities of today are all carried out by Muslims. No, it's IMPOSSIBLE to say otherwise. UNLESS one is hitting Grampa's cough syrup, dopey, or brainwashed. At the same time. That's whatthe Government and media have trained people to believe. Huh? We've ALL been brainwashed by gubmint?? And MSNBC? You mean Allah IS "good"?? MUSLIM ZOMBIE APOLOGIST ALERT!! Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   13:35:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #31. To: Liberator (#25) ... where's the citation ... Why waste my time, you will only attack the messenger and not debate the message – After all, that is your modus operandi However, since it appears that you want to play Jeopardy - Okay, I’ll take the Bible for One Thousand, Alex ... The Bible for One Thousand: Can you find at least 10 verses from the bible that pertain to killing non believers, even killing your own family member if they don’t believe in Jesus Christ. Liberator, are there at least 10 verses (and probably more) in the bible that pertain to killing non believers, even killing your own family member if they don’t believe in Jesus? Your Turn . . . OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   14:07:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #32. To: Liberator (#26) 99% – Where did you get that statistic? The number is obviously high, but that high? The statistic is artificial LOW if anything. It's probably closer to 99.997% Did you just make up that number? No, it's according to any Muslim Terrorist Mosque scorecard. They get pissed when the stats falls below 99%. You just proved how little people like you want to hear other people's opinions, but rather just want to hand out blanket dismissals. OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   14:10:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #33. To: Tater (#32) You just proved how little people like you want to hear other people's opinions, but rather just want to hand out blanket dismissals. Any cursory perusal of this thread is evidence of your disingenuous and intellectual dishonesty. Your dismissal of common sense is also duly noted. Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   14:19:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #34. To: mel (#27) ... It is easy (for some folks) to say the atrocities of today are all carried out by Muslims ... ... and will forever deny that actually not all terrorists are Muslim. If you look through history many others have committed terror attacks. Oklahoma City, just to name one. And one cannot and should not forget the IRA they were responsible for quite a few bombings one of the worst was Omagh that killed many out shopping. So, yes, your statement is correct - it is not just Muslims, you know. OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   14:20:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #35. To: Tater (#31) Are there at least 10 verses (and probably more) in the bible that pertain to killing non believers, even killing your own family member if they don’t believe in Jesus? Your Turn . . . Is it Happy Hour so soon? Your turn, Tater-Tot. Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   14:22:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #36. To: Tater (#34) ...[People] will forever deny that actually not all terrorists are Muslim. Hey Tots - Have you forgotten that I gave a margin of .03-1% of terrorists that might NOT be Muslim? Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   14:25:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #37. To: Liberator, mel (#28) The doctrine of Jesus Christ does NOT condone murder, violence, and conversion by the sword IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST...Never did; Never will. Ahem ... Liberator - It is quite obvious that you are a student of the Bible. Therefore, please explain the meaning of the following quoted versus and scriptures. (I think it's pretty clear … that it's not a full-blown research effort yet, but more of a quick bit of analysis to check your hypothesis). I am in no hurry, take your time – I can wait for this … Kill Nonbelievers They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB) Kill Followers of Other Religions. If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB) Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT) Kill Witches You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB) Kill Homosexuals "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) Kill Fortunetellers A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB) Death for Hitting Dad Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB) Death for Cursing Parents 1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB) 2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT) Death for Adultery If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT) Death for Fornication A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB) Death to Followers of Other Religions Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB) Kill False Prophets If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB) Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT) Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB) OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   14:31:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #38. To: Tater, Liberator (#37) What Liberator and the other thumpers will come back with is that "Those are from the Old Testament so they don't count." But remember, so did the Ten Commandments, so should we discount them as well because they're in the Old Testament? What's the difference between Sarah Palin's mouth and other parts of her body? Only some of the things that don't come out of her mouth are retarded. Racism_Boot  posted on  2009-12-12   14:35:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #39. To: Tater (#37) Nice try, Tots, but THIS was your original claim: "The Bible for One Thousand: Can you find at least 10 verses from the bible that pertain to killing non believers, even killing your own family member if they don’t believe in Jesus Christ. Tick...tick...tick... Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   14:36:58 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #40. To: Liberator (#33) Any cursory perusal of this thread is evidence of your disingenuous and intellectual dishonesty. Your dismissal of common sense is also duly noted. And after I studied your comments history before engaging in a discussion with you, It was easily evident for me to observe that you have problems with your overt bias - continually posting a bunch of tripe, on which I have called you out. OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   14:39:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #41. To: Liberator (#39) The Bible for One Thousand: Can you find at least 10 verses from the bible that pertain to killing non believers, even killing your own family member if they don’t believe in Jesus Christ. These loons still trying to push this same nutty BS.Dont you know the "Insane Murder Cult" known as Islam is just misunderstood and misrepresented. Gater  posted on  2009-12-12   14:42:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #42. To: Liberator, Mel (#30) Mel framed a well constructed debate, and you bashed her. You started by calling her an Airhead, a Muslim Apologist and then continued with other name calling. You bash liberals for going nuts when they rant, sure, but then when a conservative writes a well thought out post - all you can say or do is to counter her posts with name calling. Nobody is ever going to accept what you have to say if you're constantly disrespecting people. OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   14:50:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #43. To: Liberator, Mel (#42) If you stop and think about it, labeling someone: Airhead, Teach, Muslim Apologist, Professor - isn't a good substitute for thinking critically about it issue by issue. If I stop and think about it - I guess in your case it is, Liberator. OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   15:02:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #44. To: Gater (#41) These loons still trying to push this same nutty BS.Dont you know the "Insane Murder Cult" known as Islam is just misunderstood and misrepresented. Of course... NO difference in any religions because they ALL engage in terrorism... And let's especially NOT forget that "Islam is a Religion of Peace." Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   15:03:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #45. To: Liberator (#44) Faith in God gives life meaning and direction for millions of people. But some people often express their desires and goals - and also their anger in religious terms. It is most unfortunate that religion, like patriotism can also be misused for political purposes. Recognizing this, it is therefore important to see politics and religion as distinct and separate dimensions of our lives. Extremists seeking to find arguments for persecution or a holy war can misuse religions. This has been shown again and again throughout history. We have seen it in Christianity in the form of the Medieval Crusades and through the persecution of non-Christian right up to our own times. Religion is often used as a unifying force against occupation and social injustice. And in these cases, the enemy is often portrayed as an “unbeliever”. But I believe that these instances of misuse are more a question of local culture and political environment than of religion. You approach appears one which is always coming to condemn. Instead of always coming to condemn, perhaps if you try to understand the causes, then you will not come to accuse a culture or another, but you will come to change the very roots of violence in history. After all, is it not better to change the roots of violence than it is to just condemn it? OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   15:05:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #46. To: Tater (#42) Mel framed a well constructed debate, and you bashed her. You started by calling her an Airhead, a Muslim Apologist and then continued with other name calling. "Well framed"? LOL - yeah, like a rickety tent pitched at the edge of a cliff. Can you refute any of my observations? Or is the truth verboten by you and your fellow history revisionists, Leftists, and Muslim apologists? Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   15:06:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #47. To: Tater (#45) Is it not better to change the roots of violence than it is to just condemn it? Great idea. How do we change the evil "roots" of Islam? Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   15:08:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #48. To: Liberator (#36) Have you forgotten that I gave a margin of .03-1% of terrorists that might NOT be Muslim? And whom would you include in that .03-1%? Hmm ... Who created Osama bin Laden? Was it America in order to fight the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan? Hmm ... Sure uh huh ok OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   15:11:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #49. To: Tater (#42) Nobody is ever going to accept what you have to say if you're constantly disrespecting people. I disrespect ALL who apologize for Islam and its Cult of Death. I suspect you respect ALL "religions" and "cultures" and refuse to discriminate or differentiate between good and evil. Why do I know that? Because you are an moral relativist and consider yourself a "global citizen". Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   15:14:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #50. To: Liberator (#47) Great idea. How do we change the evil "roots" of Islam? Grasshopper ... Would it not be better to change the evil "roots" of terrorism? This would be a difficult task for you since you are obviously so attached to your particular point of view that you leave no alternative and cut yourself off from the opportunity of experiencing a different viewpoint that can possibly be more empowering to you? OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   15:15:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #51. To: Liberator (#49) I suspect you respect ALL "religions" and "cultures" and refuse to discriminate or differentiate between good and evil. Why do I know that? Because you are an moral relativist and consider yourself a "global citizen". You don’t know me and you have no basis for this assertion – all you want to do is argue for the sake of arguing. Heated arguments are purely ego driven and one does not need to argue if one does not want to. While there will always be some disagreements, there is no need for heated ego-driven arguments and one does not have to let them happen. When one simply lets go of that need, then one saves so much stress and anger thereby allowing that energy to be used in much more productive ways. OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   15:20:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #52. To: Tater (#50) Grasshopper ... Would it not be better to change the evil "roots" of terrorism? I agree... But who's going to volunteer to "change" the words of the Koran? Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   15:21:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #53. To: Liberator (#46) Can you refute any of my observations? Explaining a point of view can be done in many ways. One way is simply to give a written opinion wherein the words should be chosen carefully in a tone that should be one of gentleness. I am making every attempt to do just that - What are you doing? OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   15:23:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #54. To: Liberator (#52) But who's going to volunteer to "change" the words of the Koran? You will be quite surprised at how a shift in your perspective reduces your overall anxiety and enables you to achieve more ... and achieve it happily. OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   15:26:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #55. To: Tater (#51) You don’t know me and you have no basis for this assertion... Sure I do. Connecting a few dots isn't difficult at all. While there will always be some disagreements, there is no need for heated ego-driven arguments and one does not have to let them happen. When one simply lets go of that need, then one saves so much stress and anger thereby allowing that energy to be used in much more productive ways. If one allows lies and propaganda to go on without refutation or disinfection, it's stench of intellectual rot may permeate some of blogosphere. Is that fair to the pods or easily-swayed space cadets? It must be nice to escape into an alternative reality. Seriously - I admire that about you. Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   15:28:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #56. To: Liberator (#55) Reaction creates the notion of “dislike,” or hate, which blocks our eyes, mind and heart from focusing on anything but the negative. OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   15:31:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #57. To: Tater (#53) Explaining a point of view can be done in many ways. One way is simply to give a written opinion wherein the words should be chosen carefully in a tone that should be one of gentleness. Gee, I'd love to treat disingenuous airheads, Muslim apologists, and propaganda tools with kid-gloves, but sometimes it's just not possible. Unfortunately, war is never a "gentle" process. Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   15:32:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #58. To: Tater (#56) Reaction creates the notion of “dislike,” or hate, which blocks our eyes, mind and heart from focusing on anything but the negative. What's "positive" then about Islam? Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   15:33:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #59. To: Tater (#24) terrorism is not singularily a product of religious fanaticism. Then maybe Islam shouldn't be seen as a legitimate religion. The terrorism generated by it is worldwide, not localized or regionalized. What's the difference between Racism_Boot's mouth and anal pore? There isn't any, they both spew gas and feces. Ibluafartsky  posted on  2009-12-12   15:35:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #60. To: Liberator (#57) Gee, I'd love to treat disingenuous airheads, Muslim apologists, and propaganda tools with kid-gloves, but sometimes it's just not possible. Grasshopper - While there is nothing wrong with disliking something or someone, when that dislike affects your ability to interact courteously with others, it becomes a problem. OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   15:44:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #61. To: Tater (#60) While there is nothing wrong with disliking something or someone, when that dislike affects your ability to interact courteously with others, it becomes a problem. Perhaps you had better step forward and inform the victims of Islam that the reason they are beheaded or blown up is because they have been "discourteous" to Muslim sensitivities. You do that and I'll put in a good word for you with the Nobel Committee. Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   15:49:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #62. To: Ibluafartsky (#59) Then maybe Islam shouldn't be seen as a legitimate religion. ANY "ism" or belief is now considered a "religion" (almost.) Secular Humanist and Socialist beliefs and ethics have been taught from K-12 and then at the University level by North American school systems and the Academe for decades, yet for some odd reason NOT declared "religions." THEY ARE. Gee, I wonder why? Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   15:54:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #63. To: Liberator (#61) Emotions are by definition irrational, visceral responses no more a part of your character than a muscle spasm. You can, however, assume responsibility for your actions by figuring out how to treat the person fairly in spite of your dislike. OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   15:56:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #64. To: Liberator (#55) Seriously - I admire that about you. My perseverance and discipline opens the key to many things and places for me. One thing it does not open for me is a need or way to escape into an alternative reality. I have no need to go there - I'm doing just fine where I am, thank you. OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   16:00:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #65. To: Tater (#63) Emotions are by definition irrational, visceral responses no more a part of your character than a muscle spasm. LOL - you're a trip. WHAT are you smokin'? Btw - Gimme ANY "positives" about Islam. Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   16:02:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #66. To: Joe Snuffy (#0) Obama stating that Islam is militant in nature. ----------------------------------------------------------- Toss: ADL,CAIR and the Vatican into the pit they belong in. WhiteSands  posted on  2009-12-12   16:10:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #67. To: Liberator (#65) Gimme ANY "positives" about Islam. Why should I – I am not a Muslim, nor do I ever intend to become one. If you are so interested in learning some positives about Islam, then you will need to do your own research (pretty easy after you get the hang of it). Since you want to learn about Islam, are you leaning toward converting? I hope not. I only entered into discussion on this thread to make one point. I have stated my point, albeit it obvious that I never made the point to you. In case you forgot, as I am sure you have – if you ever read it, I will repeat the salient point I wished to make: Terrorism is rooted in political discontent - and that can also be termed as political rage when it reaches the level of terrorism. And how does the discontent or rage occur? Obviously from injustice – real, perceived, believed – but injustice. No cause can justify terrorism. That is not in question. The question is: can the phenomenon of terrorism be ignored? It cannot - It has to be dealt with. You deal with the symptoms, or the roots. Only after the root cause of the problem is addressed can there be a diminishing to the receptiveness and supportiveness in Muslim societies for extreme violence, unfortunately. It is only this step that can start the process of defusing the confrontation and hostility, which has now arisen. Before you go to “sleepy-poo” tonight, make sure you check under your bed to see if anyone is hiding there and – leave the lights on. You have a fine afternoon, Lib, it has been a "hoot" - One I would not have missed. I leave you with this thought: Because everyone has their own point of view, each person is entitled to her/his opinion too. Therefore one should courteously pay attention to their point of view - as one would expect them to also listen with that same attention ~ Tater OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   16:34:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #68. To: Tater (#67) ME: " Gimme ANY 'positives' about Islam. " Why should I – I am not a Muslim, nor do I ever intend to become one. My bad - I thought you might be capable of providing JUST one positive of Islam; Not that your status as a Muslim or apologist for Islam is relevant to the question. So be it. Since you want to learn about Islam... Chyeah. As has been said many times, I learned all I need to know about Islam on 9/11. And on CNN. OR at Ft. Hood. Terrorism is rooted in political discontent... No Tots - it's rooted in the disease of the soul and desire to enslave other. For 1300 years Islam has proven it is entirely incapable of elevating elevating the human spirit or condition. You might do well to re-examine your regard for a Cult which would not only censor you, but murder you for your "enlightenment." Thank God (or Gaia or Buddha in your case) you were blessed to have lived under a Judeo-Christian inspired governance. You have a fine afternoon, Lib, it has been a "hoot" - One I would not have missed. Thank you for the chuckles and polite discourse as well. Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   17:46:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #69. To: Tater, Liberator (#43) No worries, Tator. I already know Lib would like to wipe all Mulims off the face of the planet - all in the name of Christianity of course. OK Lib - put it to the test. You think you know so much, help me out with the assignment I'm working on right now. Be sure to use only factual information with unbiased links. The assignment is to compare and contrast the lives of Jesus and Muhammad. Here are a few specifics for you to address: · Trace the lives of Jesus and Mohammed historically. · Compare what impact the death of each person had on his respective religion. · Describe the ways each individual was/is worshipped. · Explain how their messages are being carried out in the world today. Good luck. Happy Birthday Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone! mel  posted on  2009-12-12   19:50:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #70. To: mel (#69) I already know Lib would like to wipe all Mulims off the face of the planet - all in the name of Christianity of course. Nonsense. I would be satisfied merely having the Muslim Cultists isolated behind mile-high walls withing their OWN borders and out of MY country. Q: Would you mind sharing your own community with 50% Muslims? Help me out with the assignment I'm working on right now....The assignment is to compare and contrast the lives of Jesus and Muhammad. Let me make this simple for you: Compare and contrast Good and Evil. Life and Death. Joy and Sorrow. Truth and Lies. Freedom and Bondage. Found and Lost. Love and Hate. Run with it. Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   21:20:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #71. To: mel (#69) (Edited) Here's the test. If you are opposed to land being taken by force sign over your property to the local Native American tribes. IF your not in the US Tell me which nation you are in and I can tell from which peoples your land was forcibly taken from. 180 years after we give North America back to the native Americans, Israel must do the same. ----------------------------------------------------------- Toss: ADL,CAIR and the Vatican into the pit they belong in. WhiteSands  posted on  2009-12-12   21:24:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #72. To: Liberator (#70) You get an F. Happy Birthday Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone! mel  posted on  2009-12-12   22:35:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #73. To: WhiteSands (#71) I'm in Arizona and have a tinge of Native American blood running through my veins. Happy Birthday Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone! mel  posted on  2009-12-12   22:37:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #74. To: mel (#72) You get an F. Yeah. For "Freakin" Right-On! Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   22:46:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #75. To: Mel (#70) Yoo-hoo.... Q: Would you mind sharing your own community with 50% Muslims? a) Yes b) No c) Only if I live in the 'Green Zone' in Baghdad Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   22:49:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #76. To: Liberator (#75) Not at all....as long as they are well-educated in their religion, unlike those terrorists who call themselves Muslims. I know people that moved from their neighborhoods once they became predominatly black. I moved from my last neighborhood because the drug addicts started moving in. You're prejudiced against Muslims as others are prejudiced against blacks and I am prejudiced against drug addicts. Happy Birthday Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone! mel  posted on  2009-12-12   23:08:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #77. To: mel (#1) Jihad describes the ethics and morals of the Muslims. Jihad is the internal fight between right and wrong, moral and immoral, selfishness and selflessness, etc. The inner peach and equilibrium is then reflected outward in an attempt to create peace and harmony in society. Jihad is not about waging wars on others. Jihad does promote self-defense. Bogus! Holy Wars. Muhammad believed in holy war (the Jihad). By divine revelation he commanded his followers: “fight in the cause Of God” (sura 2:244). He added, “fight and slay The Pagans wherever ye find them” (sura 9:5). And, “when ye meet The Unbelievers (in fight) Smite at their necks” (sura 47:4). In general, Muslims were to “fight those who believe not In God nor the Last Day” (sura 9:29). Indeed, Paradise is promised for those who fight for God. Sura 3:195 declares: “Those who have left their homes . . . Or fought or been slain,— Verily, I will blot out From them their iniquities, And admit them into Gardens With rivers flowing beneath;—A reward from the Presence Of God, and from His Presence Is the best of rewards” (cf. sura 2:244; 4:95). These “holy wars” were carried out “in the cause Of God” (cf. sura 2:244) against “unbelievers.” Sura 5:36 declares that “The punishment of those Who wage war against God [i.e., unbelievers] And His Apostle, and strive With might and main For mischief through the land Is: execution, or crucifixion, Or the cutting off of hands And feet from opposite sides, Or exile from the land.” Acknowledging that these are appropriate punishments, depending on “the circumstances,” Ali offers little consolation when he notes that the more cruel forms of Arabian treatment of enemies, such as, “piercing of eyes and leaving the unfortunate victim exposed to a tropical sun,” were abolished! (Ali, 252, 738). Such war on, and persecution of, enemies on religious grounds—by whatever means—is seen by most critics as religious intolerance. In view of these clear commands to use the sword aggressively to spread Islam and Muslim practice down through the centuries, Muslim claims that “this fight is waged solely for the freedom to call men unto God and unto His religion” have a hollow ring (cf. Haykal, 212). Geisler, N. L. (1999). Baker encyclopedia of Christian apologetics. Baker reference library (508). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books. GarySpFC  posted on  2009-12-12   23:54:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #78. To: Tater (#12) I think she was talking about there being extremist in all religions. If we stop and think about it, I am sure we can find some, maybe many, examples. That is a half truth. Yes, we can find extremists in all religions. That said, the foundation for Islam is warfare, and with Christianity it is love for God and one's neighbor. GarySpFC  posted on  2009-12-13   0:01:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #79. To: Tater (#48) Who created Osama bin Laden? Was it America in order to fight the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan? Emphaticaly no! UBL's hatred for Western values predated America's role against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. He would not even meet with Americans during that time, and they were warned he would likely kill them when and if he ever encountered them. GarySpFC  posted on  2009-12-13   0:18:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #80. To: All, *Religious History and Issues* (#79) ping GarySpFC  posted on  2009-12-13   0:19:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #81. To: GarySpFC (#77) Everything you quoted happened in the Bible as well. What's that supposed to prove? Happy Birthday Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone! mel  posted on  2009-12-13   0:27:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #82. To: mel (#81) Everything you quoted happened in the Bible as well. What's that supposed to prove? Let me suggest you learn the difference between the Old Testament and New Testament prior to making that statement. GarySpFC  posted on  2009-12-13   0:51:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #83. To: GarySpFC (#82) I know the difference, and thank you for that statement. Jesus changed everything, but Jesus is God. Before Jesus, God didn't know what it was like to actually live on Earth in the flesh. After he sent Jesus, as himself incarnate, his ideas changed. Jesus brought love to the Earth. Jesus taught God to love. Instead of an eye for an eye, it became love thy enemy and turn the other cheek. Jesus was considered a radical by his fellow Jews. Did you know that the name Jesus means God Saves? Jesus also said that it was extremely difficult for the wealthy to enter the kingdom of heaven, as God, the Protector, takes care of physical needs. I read where the Ten Commandments should no longer be relevent because they are in the Old Testament and the Old Testament is no longer relevent. I don't remember where I saw it, but that's not the case, as Jesus discusses the Ten Commandments as well, in the New Testament. The only thing odd about the Bible is that it does not tell about Jesus' entire life. Only his birth, him at age 12, and them him at age 30 until his death 3 years later. They did discover other Testaments that are older than those included in the Bible. One of them talks about Jesus making birds from clay as a child and then bringing them to life. There is much more out there than we know. The Bible is not complete. “cognitive dissonance” the rejection of facts when they conflict with important beliefs mel  posted on  2009-12-13   1:29:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #84. To: mel, Tater, *Religious History and Issues* (#76) Not at all....as long as they are well-educated in their religion, unlike those terrorists who call themselves Muslims. After the events of September 11, the issue of violence and religion has once again come into intense discussions and debate. Although various political, socioeconomic and cultural factors have significantly contributed to the rise of violence and terrorism in contemporary fundamentalist Islam, we cannot ignore the religious dimension of this violence that goes back to the very heart and origin of Islam. The point that we’d like to make is quite simple. While many Muslims are peace-loving, nonetheless, those who commit acts of violence and terror in the name of God can find ample justification for their actions, based on the teachings of the Qur’an and the sayings and examples from prophet Muhammad himself! We have often heard in the media that the relationship between Muslim terrorists and Islam is like that of KKK and Christianity. This analogy is clearly false. Christians who have engaged in violence are betraying the explicit teachings and examples of Jesus Christ. On the other hand, Muslims who take upon themselves to destroy their alleged enemies in the name of God can rightly claim to be following the commands of God in the Qur’an and imitating their prophet as their role model. Our point, of course, should not be taken to imply that all faithful and devout Muslims must become violent in order to be true to the teachings of Islam. No doubt the majority of the Muslim world condemns acts of terror and violence. There are many schools of thought in Islam with various and often conflicting interpretations of the Qur’an. However, the important distinction that we are making is this: The minority groups in Islam who resort to violence are not an aberration to Islam but in fact can legitimately claim to be working within the basic parameters of Islamic Jihad. We will now turn to the evidence in support of our claim. SUPPORT FOR VIOLENCE IN THE QUR’AN The following are only some of the verses in the Qur’an that can and have been used in the history of Islam in support of violence in the name of God and the glories of martyrdom in a holy war. 2:190–193 “Fight in the cause of God those who fight you … And slay them wherever ye catch them … And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God  … ” 2:216 “Fighting is prescribed for you and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth and ye know not.” 2:224 “Then fight in the cause of God and know that God heareth and knoweth all things.” 3:157–158 “And if ye are slain or die in the way of God, forgiveness and mercy from God are far better than all they could amass. And if ye die, or are slain, Lo! It is unto God that ye are brought together.” 3:169 “Think not of those who are slain in God’s way as dead. Nay, they live finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord.” 3:195 “ …  Those who have … fought or been slain, verily I will blot out from them their iniquities and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath; a reward from the presence of God  … ” 4:101 “ …  For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.” 4:74, 75 “Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of God whether he is slain or gets victory, soon shall we give him a reward of great (value). Those who believe fight in the cause of God and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil, so fight ye against the friends of Satan, feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.” 4:89 “They but wish that ye should reject faith as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they. But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them  … ” 4:95 “Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt and those who strive and fight in the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than those who sit (at home).” 5:36 “The punishment of those who wage war against God and His apostle and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land. That is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.” 5:54 “O ye who believe. Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.” 8:12–17 “Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): ‘I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips off them. This because they contend against God and his apostle. If any contend against God and his apostle, God is strict in punishment … O ye who believe. When ye meet the unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day, unless it be a stratagem of war … he draws on himself the wrath of God and his abode is Hell, an evil refuge (indeed).’ ” 8:59–60 “Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly). They will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of God and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know  … ” 8:65 “O apostle! Rouse the believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred. If a hundred they will vanquish a thousand of the unbelievers, for these are a people without understanding.” 9:5 “ …  fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)  … ” 9:14 “Fight them, and God will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame. … ” 9:29 “Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and his apostle nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay the Jizya [religious tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” 47:4 “Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks, at length when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them).… but if it had been God’s will, he could certainly have exacted retribution from them (himself), but (he lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of God, he will never let their deeds be lost.” 61:4 “Truly God loves those who fight in His cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure.” A simple reading of such Qur’anic passages makes it obvious how easy it is for many Muslims to feel hatred and enmity against Jews, Christians, and other non- Muslims. Although many Muslims are very fond of quoting some of the more “open- minded” and “inclusive” verses of the Qur’an, one cannot ignore the weight and impact of the above passages on a devout Muslim who wants to find and obey the will of God as found in the Qur’an. GarySpFC  posted on  2009-12-13   1:37:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #85. To: mel (#83) I know the difference, and thank you for that statement. Jesus changed everything, but Jesus is God. Before Jesus, God didn't know what it was like to actually live on Earth in the flesh. After he sent Jesus, as himself incarnate, his ideas changed. Jesus brought love to the Earth. Jesus taught God to love. Instead of an eye for an eye, it became love thy enemy and turn the other cheek. Jesus was considered a radical by his fellow Jews. Did you know that the name Jesus means God Saves? Jesus also said that it was extremely difficult for the wealthy to enter the kingdom of heaven, as God, the Protector, takes care of physical needs. Look up the word immutability, which is one of the attributes of God. It means God does not change. “Jesus Christ” is a composite name made up of the personal name “Jesus” (from Gk Isous, which transliterates Heb/Aram yšû (a)Ó, a late form of Hebrew yhôšûaÓ, the meaning of which is “YHWH is salvation” or “YHWH saves/has saved”) and the title, assimilated in early Christianity to Jesus as a name, “Christ” (from Gk Christos, which translates Heb m š1a7; and Aram mš17; Ò, signifying “anointed” and referring in the context of eschatological expectation to the royal “son of David”). The name “Jesus Christ” thus binds together the historic figure Jesus with the messianic role and status that early Christian faith attributed to him. In Jesus’ own lifetime, his name, since it was common in Israel, called for a specifier: “Jesus the Galilean” (Matt 26:69; cf. 21:11), or, more often, “Jesus of Nazareth” or “Jesus the Nazarean.” I read where the Ten Commandments should no longer be relevent because they are in the Old Testament and the Old Testament is no longer relevent. I don't remember where I saw it, but that's not the case, as Jesus discusses the Ten Commandments as well, in the New Testament. Nine of the Ten were brought over into the New Testament. However, Christians are not saved by obeying any of the Ten or Nine, because they are under grace through faith, and not law. The only thing odd about the Bible is that it does not tell about Jesus' entire life. Only his birth, him at age 12, and them him at age 30 until his death 3 years later. They did discover other Testaments that are older than those included in the Bible. One of them talks about Jesus making birds from clay as a child and then bringing them to life. There is much more out there than we know. The Bible is not complete. The Gnostic Texts are not older than the New Testament texts we have today...no way. Furthermore, they contain many errors and are not in harmoney with the New Testament. Everything is included in the New Testament which is sufficent for salvation. GarySpFC  posted on  2009-12-13   2:17:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #86. To: GarySpFC (#85) Other gospels circulating in the early Christian church were not included in the canon of the New Testament. They include magical stories of Jesus’s infancy, such as an account of his making clay birds and then bringing them to life. The Gospel of Thomas, one of the long-hidden manuscripts discovered in 1945 by a peasant in a cave near Nag Hammadi, Egypt, is of particular interest. Some scholars feel that its core may have been written even earlier than the canonical gospels. It contains many sayings in common with the other gospels but places the accent on mystical concepts of Jesus: Jesus said: I am the Light that is above them all. I am the All, the All came forth from me and the All attained to me. Cleave a (piece of ) wood, I am there; lift up the stone and you will find Me there. You can say God does not change, but there is a definate difference between God's commands in the Old Testament versus the New Testament. Jesus made these changes. Not only did Jesus change some of the laws from the Old Testament, he extended others. I will give you an example. According to Jesus: Those who commit murder are liable for judgment; those who are angry with their brothers are also liable [extended the law from the OT]. Committing adultery is wrong; looking at a woman lustfully is also wrong [extended the law from the OT]. Do not take an eye for an eye [as stated in the OT]; respond with love. Love not only your neighbors, but your enemies as well [a change from the OT]. Pray for those who persecute you. Furthermore, as you state, other texts are not in harmony with the NT, the New Testament is not in harmony with itself. One gospel states one thing, while another Gospel states something different. I do understand the reasons for the differences and they in no way make the Bible false. They are simply different points of view from different viewers of the events. If you know what I mean. It is extremely difficult for the wealthy to enter the kingdom of heaven. Those who consider themselves superior are more at odds with God than those who are aware of their sins. Those who sincerely repent—even if they are the hated toll-collectors, prostitutes, or ignorant common people—are more likely to receive God’s forgiveness than are the learned and self-righteous. Happy Birthday, Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone! mel  posted on  2009-12-13   16:50:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #87. To: mel (#86) Other gospels circulating in the early Christian church were not included in the canon of the New Testament. They include magical stories of Jesus’s infancy, such as an account of his making clay birds and then bringing them to life. The Gospel of Thomas, one of the long-hidden manuscripts discovered in 1945 by a peasant in a cave near Nag Hammadi, Egypt, is of particular interest. Some scholars feel that its core may have been written even earlier than the canonical gospels. It contains many sayings in common with the other gospels but places the accent on mystical concepts of Jesus: Jesus said: I am the Light that is above them all. I am the All, the All came forth from me and the All attained to me. Cleave a (piece of ) wood, I am there; lift up the stone and you will find Me there. From the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary: On paleographical grounds P. Oxy. 1 has been assigned a date shortly after 200 C.E.; the copying of the other two Greek fragments is estimated to date from various decades in the mid–3d century. Analysis of the handwriting of the Coptic text, which is well preserved, indicates that it was copied just before the year 350. According to the critical edition of the Coptic text by Layton (1989: 7), the admixture of Sahidic and Subakhmimic forms indicates that the language of this translation is “a literary language,” apparently “written by a speaker” of Subakhmimic “attempting, artificially, to conform” to Sahidic. Freedman, D. N. (1996). The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary. New York: Doubleday. From Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics: Gospel of Thomas, The. The Claim of the Critics. Some radical critics of the New Testament claim that the Gnostic (see GNOSTICISM) Gospel of Thomas is equal or superior to the New Testament and that it does not support the resurrection of Christ. The so- called Jesus Seminar places the Gospel of Thomas in their otherwise severely truncated Bible. Both stances are serious challenges to the historic Christian faith. The Gospel of Thomas was discovered in Nag Hammadi, Egypt, near Cairo in 1945 and was translated into English in 1977. While some have attempted to date parts of it earlier, the Gospel of Thomas is most reliably dated no earlier than A.D. 140–170. It contains 114 secret sayings of Jesus. Defenders of the Gospel of Thomas include Walter Baur, Frederick Wisse, A. Powell Davies, and Elaine Pagels. An Evaluation of the Credibility of the Gospel of Thomas. The best way to evaluate the credibility of the Gospel of Thomas is by way of comparison to the New Testament Gospels, which often the same critics have grave doubts about (see NEW TESTAMENT, HISTORICITY OF; NEW TESTAMENT DOCUMENTS, RELIABILITY OF; NEW TESTAMENT MANUSCRIPTS). When this comparison is made, the Gospel of Thomas comes up seriously short. The Canonical Gospels Are Much Earlier. Assuming the widely accepted dates of the Synoptic Gospels (ca. A.D. 60–80), the Gospel of Thomas falls nearly a century short. Indeed, there is evidence of even earlier dates for some Gospels (see NEW TESTAMENT, DATING OF), as even some liberal scholars admit (see Robinson, John A., all). O. C. Edwards asserts of the Gospel of Thomas and the canonical Gospels that “As historical reconstructions there is no way the two can claim equal credentials” (27). And Joseph Fitzmyer adds, “Time and again, she is blind to the fact that she is ignoring a good century of Christian existence in which these ‘gnostic Christians’ were simply not around” (123). The Gospel of Thomas Is Dependent on the Canonical Gospels. Even if the Gospel of Thomas could be shown to contain some authentic statements of Jesus, “no convincing case has been made that any given saying of Jesus in the Gospels depends on a saying in the Gospel of Thomas” (Boyd, 118). Rather, the reverse is true since the Gospel of Thomas presupposes truths found earlier in the canonical Gospels. The Gospel of Thomas Portrays a Second-Century Gnosticism. The Gospel of Thomas is influenced by the kind of Gnosticism prevalent in the second century. For instance, it puts into the mouth of Jesus these unlikely and demeaning words: “Every woman who will make herself male will enter the Kingdom of Heaven” (cited by Boyd, 118). The Gospel of Thomas’s Lack of Narrative Does Not Prove Jesus Did No Miracles. The fact that the author(s) of the Gospel of Thomas did not include narratives of Jesus does not mean they disbelieved in Jesus’ miracles. The book seems to be a collection of Jesus’ sayings rather than his deeds. The Canonical Gospels Are More Historically Trustworthy. There are numerous reasons why the New Testament Gospels are more trustworthy than the Gnostic ones. First, the earliest Christians were meticulous in preserving Jesus’ words and deeds. Second, the Gospel writers were close to the eyewitnesses and pursued the facts (Luke 1:1–4). Third, there is good evidence that the Gospel writers were honest reporters (see NEW TESTAMENT, HISTORICITY OF; WITNESSES, HUME’S CRITERIA FOR). Fourth, the overall picture of Jesus presented in the Gospels is the same. The Basic New Testament Canon Was Formed in the First Century. Contrary to claims of the critics, the basic New Testament canon was formed in the first century. The only books in dispute have no apologetic effect on the argument for the reliability of the historical material used to establish the deity of Christ. The New Testament itself reveals that a collection of books existed in the first century. Peter speaks of having Paul’s epistles (2 Peter 3:15–16). In fact, he considered them on a par with Old Testament “Scripture.” Paul had access to Luke’s Gospel, and quotes it in 1 Timothy 5:18. The churches were instructed to send their epistle on to other churches (Col. 4:16). Beyond the New Testament, there are extrabiblical canonical lists that support the existence of a New Testament canon (see Geisler and Nix, 294). Indeed, all the Gospels and Paul’s basic epistles are represented on these lists. Even the heretical canon of the Gnostic *Marcion (ca. A.D. 140) had the Gospel of Luke and ten of Paul’s epistles, including 1 Corinthians. The Second-Century Fathers Support the Canonical Gospels. The second-century Fathers cited a common body of books. This includes all the crucial books that support the historicity of Christ and his resurrection, namely, the Gospels, Acts, and 1 Corinthians. Clement of Roman (A.D. 95) cited the Gospels (Corinthians, 13, 42, 46). Ignatius (ca. 110–115) cited Luke 24:39 (Smyrnaeans 3). Polycarp (ca. 115) cited all the Synoptic Gospels (Philippians 2, 7). The Didache often cites the Synoptic Gospels (1, 3, 8, 9, 15–16). The Epistle of Barnabas (ca. 135) cites Matthew 22:14). Papias (ca. 125–140) in the Oracles speaks of Matthew, Mark (following Peter), and John (last) who wrote Gospels. He says three times that Mark made no errors. What is more, the Fathers considered the Gospels and Paul’s epistles to be on a par with the inspired Old Testament. Thus the Fathers vouched for the accuracy of the canonical Gospels in the early second century, well before the Gospel of Thomas was even written. The Resurrection Account. The Gospel of Thomas does acknowledge Jesus’ resurrection. In fact, the living, resurrected Christ himself speaks in it (34:25–27; 45:1–16). True, it does not stress the resurrection, but this is to be expected since it is primarily a “sayings” source rather than historical narration. Furthermore, the Gnostic theological bias against matter would downplay the bodily resurrection. Conclusion. The evidence for the authenticity of the Gospel of Thomas does not even compare with that for the New Testament. The New Testament dates from the first century; the Gospel of Thomas, the second. The New Testament is verified by many lines of evidence, including self-references, early canonical lists, thousands of citations by the early Fathers, and the well-established dates for the Synoptic Gospels. Geisler, N. L. (1999). Baker encyclopedia of Christian apologetics. Baker reference library (295–296). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books. You can say God does not change, but there is a definate difference between God's commands in the Old Testament versus the New Testament. Jesus made these changes. Not only did Jesus change some of the laws from the Old Testament, he extended others. I will give you an example. God did not change, but there are two different covenants. There is a big difference you are missing. Christians are not under law, but grace. According to Jesus: Those who commit murder are liable for judgment; those who are angry with their brothers are also liable [extended the law from the OT]. Committing adultery is wrong; looking at a woman lustfully is also wrong [extended the law from the OT]. Do not take an eye for an eye [as stated in the OT]; respond with love. Love not only your neighbors, but your enemies as well [a change from the OT]. Pray for those who persecute you. Those who commit murder of either sort are under law, NOT grace. Furthermore, as you state, other texts are not in harmony with the NT, the New Testament is not in harmony with itself. One gospel states one thing, while another Gospel states something different. I do understand the reasons for the differences and they in no way make the Bible false. They are simply different points of view from different viewers of the events. If you know what I mean. Those are labeled apparent contradictions, apparent but not real. Only those not grounded in the Scriptures see contradictions. I have never found one. Bible, Alleged Errors in. Critics claim the Bible is filled with errors. Some even speak of thousands of mistakes. However, orthodox Christians through the ages have claimed that the Bible is without error in the original text (“autographs”; see Geisler, Decide for Yourself). “If we are perplexed by any apparent contradiction in Scripture,” Augustine wisely noted, “it is not allowable to say, ‘The author of this book is mistaken’; but either the manuscript is faulty, or the translation is wrong, or you have not understood” (Augustine, 11.5). Not one error that extends to the original text of the Bible has ever been demonstrated. Geisler, N. L. (1999). Baker encyclopedia of Christian apologetics. Baker reference library (74). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books. GarySpFC  posted on  2009-12-13   20:29:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #88. To: GarySpFC (#87) I do understand the reasons for the differences and they in no way make the Bible false. You missed that part of my post? It is extremely difficult for the wealthy to enter the kingdom of heaven. Those who consider themselves superior are more at odds with God than those who are aware of their sins. Those who sincerely repent—even if they are the hated toll-collectors, prostitutes, or ignorant common people—are more likely to receive God’s forgiveness than are the learned and self-righteous. Happy Birthday, Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone! mel  posted on  2009-12-13   21:08:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #89. To: mel (#88) Furthermore, as you state, other texts are not in harmony with the NT, the New Testament is not in harmony with itself. One gospel states one thing, while another Gospel states something different. I do understand the reasons for the differences and they in no way make the Bible false. They are simply different points of view from different viewers of the events. If you know what I mean. The point I was making is the New Testament is in harmony with itself. GarySpFC  posted on  2009-12-14   11:20:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #90. To: GarySpFC (#78) Yes, we can find extremists in all religions.... That said, the foundation for Islam is warfare, and with Christianity it is love for God and one's neighbor. The truth. Clear and simply. Well done, G-Man - thanks. Liberator  posted on  2009-12-14   11:56:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #91. To: mel, ALL (#83) Before Jesus, God didn't know what it was like to actually live on Earth in the flesh. After he [God the Father and Creator] sent Jesus, as himself incarnate, his ideas changed. Jesus brought love to the Earth. Jesus taught God to love. Mel, I will say this about you - I admire that you are at least attempting to seek the truth your spirit obviously hungers for...There is a battle being waged over your soul. But Satan roams the world like a ravenous lion, hoping to deceive and devour us all a thousand different ways every day in the most subtle of ways. God always was; He was the the same yesterday as today as tomorrow. Jesus as one with His Father and Creator of the Universe could/would not "teach God" a thing. With all sincerity, I hope the Truth is revealed to you. The mission of Satan is to plant the seed of doubt and diversion, hoping it eventually crowds-out the Lord's seed, young shoot, or even established sapling. If there was any one book I'd recommend reading, it'd be Dave Hunt's (yes, THAT Dave Hunt) 'Occult Invasion: The Subtle Seduction of the World and Church' As one reviewer at Amazon described the book: "Dave Hunt investigates a whole plethora of subjects which are Occult-based or Occult-related." "These stem from spirit communication & possession, Eastern Mysticism, the New Age movements, Holistic Medicine, Drugs, Evolution, Psychology, aspects of the Catholic Church, UFO's, Angels, Ghosts, Near Death Experiences and Spiritual Warfare, to mention just a few." It's a fascinating book to read regardless of one's faith. And then there are even trivial tidbits like this: Did you know the Ouija Board was "invented" to contact the dead of WWI? Liberator  posted on  2009-12-14   12:39:12 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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