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Religion
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Title: Obama on DC Jihadis: "Fiercely loyal Muslims"
Source: Atlas Shrugs
URL Source: http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/ ... is-fiercely-loyal-muslims.html
Published: Dec 11, 2009
Author: staff
Post Date: 2009-12-11 09:48:16 by Joe Snuffy
Keywords: War on Terror, Obama, US Muslim terrorists
Views: 36142
Comments: 91

Obama on DC Jihadis: "Fiercely loyal Muslims"

Crazy, man.

Check out the TOTUS's response today to the devastating news of five DC Muslim students tracked down and arrested in Pakistan. They were plotting jihad. What did Pres Moe say? He speaks about fiercely loyal Muslims ....loyal to whom exactly?

(vid hat tip KGS)

Obama spent a month in Pakistan during his college years ....perhaps he is, uh, sympathetic.

Here is a sampling of different posts in the past three months of fiercely loyal Muslim activity here in the good old USA:

Chicago Muslim Charged In Mumbai Islamic Massacre Planned More Terror Attacks in India

AMERICAN JIHAD: FBI INVESTIGATING 5 MISSING MUSLIM STUDENTS IN DC, POSSIBLE ARREST IN PAKISTAN

“I said he was acting...like a terrorist,” roommate of Jihadi who Murdered Binghamton Professor

Muslims of America Domestic Terror Jihad training camp videos to be released

Chicago Jihadis who Plotted to bomb Danish Cartoon Publisher at Halal Slaughterhouse Tied to Mumbai

Muslim Sentenced to Six-year jail term in Plot to Blow up Sears Tower: "Islamic terrorism is one of the most tremendous problem that this country now confronts ... this defendant took an oath to Al-Qaeda"

Beltway Jihadi Sniper John Muhammad: Death to the Jihadi Tonight

Fort Hood Jihad

Going Muslim on a Photographer outside Michigan Mosque

Son of an Imam Killed in Gun Battle with the FBI in Detroit is Arrested


Michigan Mosque leader killed during Islamic gun battle with fed

Hush Hush: Huge Fed/FBI Raid on Chicago Halal Goat Meat Slaughterhouse


Boston Muslim Terrorist Son of MAS (Muslim American Society) Leader


Another Conviction of Muslims Engaged in Plotting Islamic Attacks Against American Overseas

NY Imam Indicted in NYC Terror Attack Plot

Massive Muslim Attack Averted: "plot to kill two prominent US politicians and carry out a holy war by attacking shoppers in US malls and American troops in Iraq"

Obama First Female Veiled Islamist Appointee, Dalia Mogahed, Promotes Sharia, Says it's "Misunderstood

"New York Muslim indicted for plotting to kill U.S. troopswww.dallasnews.com/shared...ombarrest.1b177db8b.html" target="_blank">

www.dallasnews.com/shared...ombarrest.1b177db8b.html" target="_blank">FBI arrests Jordanian for downtown Dallas bomb plot...

NYC: Muslims Protest "RACIAL PROFILING" in wake of arrests in major jihad terror plot


www.reuters.com/article/m...ws/idUSN2447383520090924" target="_blank">Illinois man charged in plot to bomb federal offices...

www.reuters.com/article/d...ws/idUSTRE58N6YT20090924" target="_blank">Terror suspects accused of targeting Marine base in Quantico...

cbs3.com/local/SEPTA.Broad.Street.2.1206878.html" target="_blank">Men vanish after taking photos of Philly subway system...

Click for Full Text!

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#51. To: Liberator (#49)

I suspect you respect ALL "religions" and "cultures" and refuse to discriminate or differentiate between good and evil. Why do I know that? Because you are an moral relativist and consider yourself a "global citizen".

You don’t know me and you have no basis for this assertion – all you want to do is argue for the sake of arguing.

Heated arguments are purely ego driven and one does not need to argue if one does not want to.

While there will always be some disagreements, there is no need for heated ego-driven arguments and one does not have to let them happen.

When one simply lets go of that need, then one saves so much stress and anger thereby allowing that energy to be used in much more productive ways.

OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   15:20:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Tater (#50)

Grasshopper ...

Would it not be better to change the evil "roots" of terrorism?

I agree...

But who's going to volunteer to "change" the words of the Koran?

Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   15:21:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Liberator (#46)

Can you refute any of my observations?

Explaining a point of view can be done in many ways.

One way is simply to give a written opinion wherein the words should be chosen carefully in a tone that should be one of gentleness.

I am making every attempt to do just that - What are you doing?

OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   15:23:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Liberator (#52)

But who's going to volunteer to "change" the words of the Koran?

You will be quite surprised at how a shift in your perspective reduces your overall anxiety and enables you to achieve more ... and achieve it happily.

OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   15:26:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Tater (#51)

You don’t know me and you have no basis for this assertion...

Sure I do. Connecting a few dots isn't difficult at all.

While there will always be some disagreements, there is no need for heated ego-driven arguments and one does not have to let them happen. When one simply lets go of that need, then one saves so much stress and anger thereby allowing that energy to be used in much more productive ways.

If one allows lies and propaganda to go on without refutation or disinfection, it's stench of intellectual rot may permeate some of blogosphere. Is that fair to the pods or easily-swayed space cadets?

It must be nice to escape into an alternative reality. Seriously - I admire that about you.

Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   15:28:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Liberator (#55)

Reaction creates the notion of “dislike,” or hate, which blocks our eyes, mind and heart from focusing on anything but the negative.

OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   15:31:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Tater (#53)

Explaining a point of view can be done in many ways.

One way is simply to give a written opinion wherein the words should be chosen carefully in a tone that should be one of gentleness.

Gee, I'd love to treat disingenuous airheads, Muslim apologists, and propaganda tools with kid-gloves, but sometimes it's just not possible.

Unfortunately, war is never a "gentle" process.

Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   15:32:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Tater (#56)

Reaction creates the notion of “dislike,” or hate, which blocks our eyes, mind and heart from focusing on anything but the negative.

What's "positive" then about Islam?

Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   15:33:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Tater (#24)

terrorism is not singularily a product of religious fanaticism.

Then maybe Islam shouldn't be seen as a legitimate religion. The terrorism generated by it is worldwide, not localized or regionalized.

What's the difference between Racism_Boot's mouth and anal pore? There isn't any, they both spew gas and feces.

Ibluafartsky  posted on  2009-12-12   15:35:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: Liberator (#57)

Gee, I'd love to treat disingenuous airheads, Muslim apologists, and propaganda tools with kid-gloves, but sometimes it's just not possible.

Grasshopper - While there is nothing wrong with disliking something or someone, when that dislike affects your ability to interact courteously with others, it becomes a problem.

OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   15:44:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Tater (#60)

While there is nothing wrong with disliking something or someone, when that dislike affects your ability to interact courteously with others, it becomes a problem.

Perhaps you had better step forward and inform the victims of Islam that the reason they are beheaded or blown up is because they have been "discourteous" to Muslim sensitivities.

You do that and I'll put in a good word for you with the Nobel Committee.

Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   15:49:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: Ibluafartsky (#59)

Then maybe Islam shouldn't be seen as a legitimate religion.

ANY "ism" or belief is now considered a "religion" (almost.)

Secular Humanist and Socialist beliefs and ethics have been taught from K-12 and then at the University level by North American school systems and the Academe for decades, yet for some odd reason NOT declared "religions." THEY ARE.

Gee, I wonder why?

Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   15:54:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: Liberator (#61)

Emotions are by definition irrational, visceral responses no more a part of your character than a muscle spasm.

You can, however, assume responsibility for your actions by figuring out how to treat the person fairly in spite of your dislike.

OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   15:56:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: Liberator (#55)

Seriously - I admire that about you.

My perseverance and discipline opens the key to many things and places for me.

One thing it does not open for me is a need or way to escape into an alternative reality.

I have no need to go there - I'm doing just fine where I am, thank you.

OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   16:00:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Tater (#63)

Emotions are by definition irrational, visceral responses no more a part of your character than a muscle spasm.

LOL - you're a trip. WHAT are you smokin'?

Btw - Gimme ANY "positives" about Islam.

Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   16:02:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: Joe Snuffy (#0)

Obama stating that Islam is militant in nature.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Toss: ADL,CAIR and the Vatican into the pit they belong in.

WhiteSands  posted on  2009-12-12   16:10:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: Liberator (#65)

Gimme ANY "positives" about Islam.

Why should I – I am not a Muslim, nor do I ever intend to become one.

If you are so interested in learning some positives about Islam, then you will need to do your own research (pretty easy after you get the hang of it).

Since you want to learn about Islam, are you leaning toward converting? I hope not.

I only entered into discussion on this thread to make one point. I have stated my point, albeit it obvious that I never made the point to you.

In case you forgot, as I am sure you have – if you ever read it, I will repeat the salient point I wished to make:

Terrorism is rooted in political discontent - and that can also be termed as political rage when it reaches the level of terrorism. And how does the discontent or rage occur? Obviously from injustice – real, perceived, believed – but injustice. No cause can justify terrorism. That is not in question. The question is: can the phenomenon of terrorism be ignored? It cannot - It has to be dealt with. You deal with the symptoms, or the roots.

Only after the root cause of the problem is addressed can there be a diminishing to the receptiveness and supportiveness in Muslim societies for extreme violence, unfortunately. It is only this step that can start the process of defusing the confrontation and hostility, which has now arisen.

Before you go to “sleepy-poo” tonight, make sure you check under your bed to see if anyone is hiding there and – leave the lights on.

You have a fine afternoon, Lib, it has been a "hoot" - One I would not have missed.

I leave you with this thought:

Because everyone has their own point of view, each person is entitled to her/his opinion too. Therefore one should courteously pay attention to their point of view - as one would expect them to also listen with that same attention ~ Tater

OriginalGatlin  posted on  2009-12-12   16:34:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: Tater (#67)

ME: " Gimme ANY 'positives' about Islam. "

Why should I – I am not a Muslim, nor do I ever intend to become one.

My bad - I thought you might be capable of providing JUST one positive of Islam; Not that your status as a Muslim or apologist for Islam is relevant to the question. So be it.

Since you want to learn about Islam...

Chyeah. As has been said many times, I learned all I need to know about Islam on 9/11. And on CNN. OR at Ft. Hood.

Terrorism is rooted in political discontent...

No Tots - it's rooted in the disease of the soul and desire to enslave other. For 1300 years Islam has proven it is entirely incapable of elevating elevating the human spirit or condition. You might do well to re-examine your regard for a Cult which would not only censor you, but murder you for your "enlightenment." Thank God (or Gaia or Buddha in your case) you were blessed to have lived under a Judeo-Christian inspired governance.

You have a fine afternoon, Lib, it has been a "hoot" - One I would not have missed.

Thank you for the chuckles and polite discourse as well.

Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   17:46:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: Tater, Liberator (#43)

No worries, Tator. I already know Lib would like to wipe all Mulims off the face of the planet - all in the name of Christianity of course.

OK Lib - put it to the test. You think you know so much, help me out with the assignment I'm working on right now. Be sure to use only factual information with unbiased links.

The assignment is to compare and contrast the lives of Jesus and Muhammad. Here are a few specifics for you to address:

· Trace the lives of Jesus and Mohammed historically.
· Compare what impact the death of each person had on his respective religion.
· Describe the ways each individual was/is worshipped.
· Explain how their messages are being carried out in the world today.

Good luck.

Happy Birthday Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone!

mel  posted on  2009-12-12   19:50:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: mel (#69)

I already know Lib would like to wipe all Mulims off the face of the planet - all in the name of Christianity of course.

Nonsense.

I would be satisfied merely having the Muslim Cultists isolated behind mile-high walls withing their OWN borders and out of MY country.

Q: Would you mind sharing your own community with 50% Muslims?

Help me out with the assignment I'm working on right now....The assignment is to compare and contrast the lives of Jesus and Muhammad.

Let me make this simple for you:

Compare and contrast Good and Evil. Life and Death. Joy and Sorrow. Truth and Lies. Freedom and Bondage. Found and Lost. Love and Hate.

Run with it.

Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   21:20:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: mel (#69) (Edited)

Here's the test.

If you are opposed to land being taken by force sign over your property to the local Native American tribes.

IF your not in the US Tell me which nation you are in and I can tell from which peoples your land was forcibly taken from.

180 years after we give North America back to the native Americans, Israel must do the same.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Toss: ADL,CAIR and the Vatican into the pit they belong in.

WhiteSands  posted on  2009-12-12   21:24:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: Liberator (#70)

You get an F.

Happy Birthday Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone!

mel  posted on  2009-12-12   22:35:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: WhiteSands (#71)

I'm in Arizona and have a tinge of Native American blood running through my veins.

Happy Birthday Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone!

mel  posted on  2009-12-12   22:37:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: mel (#72)

You get an F.

Yeah. For "Freakin" Right-On!

Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   22:46:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Mel (#70)

Yoo-hoo....

Q: Would you mind sharing your own community with 50% Muslims?

a) Yes

b) No

c) Only if I live in the 'Green Zone' in Baghdad

Liberator  posted on  2009-12-12   22:49:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Liberator (#75)

Not at all....as long as they are well-educated in their religion, unlike those terrorists who call themselves Muslims.

I know people that moved from their neighborhoods once they became predominatly black.

I moved from my last neighborhood because the drug addicts started moving in.

You're prejudiced against Muslims as others are prejudiced against blacks and I am prejudiced against drug addicts.

Happy Birthday Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone!

mel  posted on  2009-12-12   23:08:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: mel (#1)

Jihad describes the ethics and morals of the Muslims. Jihad is the internal fight between right and wrong, moral and immoral, selfishness and selflessness, etc. The inner peach and equilibrium is then reflected outward in an attempt to create peace and harmony in society. Jihad is not about waging wars on others. Jihad does promote self-defense.

Bogus!

Holy Wars. Muhammad believed in holy war (the Jihad). By divine revelation he commanded his followers: “fight in the cause Of God” (sura 2:244). He added, “fight and slay The Pagans wherever ye find them” (sura 9:5). And, “when ye meet The Unbelievers (in fight) Smite at their necks” (sura 47:4). In general, Muslims were to “fight those who believe not In God nor the Last Day” (sura 9:29). Indeed, Paradise is promised for those who fight for God. Sura 3:195 declares: “Those who have left their homes . . . Or fought or been slain,— Verily, I will blot out From them their iniquities, And admit them into Gardens With rivers flowing beneath;—A reward from the Presence Of God, and from His Presence Is the best of rewards” (cf. sura 2:244; 4:95). These “holy wars” were carried out “in the cause Of God” (cf. sura 2:244) against “unbelievers.”

Sura 5:36 declares that “The punishment of those Who wage war against God [i.e., unbelievers] And His Apostle, and strive With might and main For mischief through the land Is: execution, or crucifixion, Or the cutting off of hands And feet from opposite sides, Or exile from the land.” Acknowledging that these are appropriate punishments, depending on “the circumstances,” Ali offers little consolation when he notes that the more cruel forms of Arabian treatment of enemies, such as, “piercing of eyes and leaving the unfortunate victim exposed to a tropical sun,” were abolished! (Ali, 252, 738). Such war on, and persecution of, enemies on religious grounds—by whatever means—is seen by most critics as religious intolerance. In view of these clear commands to use the sword aggressively to spread Islam and Muslim practice down through the centuries, Muslim claims that “this fight is waged solely for the freedom to call men unto God and unto His religion” have a hollow ring (cf. Haykal, 212). Geisler, N. L. (1999). Baker encyclopedia of Christian apologetics. Baker reference library (508). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.

GarySpFC  posted on  2009-12-12   23:54:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: Tater (#12)

I think she was talking about there being extremist in all religions. If we stop and think about it, I am sure we can find some, maybe many, examples.

That is a half truth. Yes, we can find extremists in all religions. That said, the foundation for Islam is warfare, and with Christianity it is love for God and one's neighbor.

GarySpFC  posted on  2009-12-13   0:01:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: Tater (#48)

Who created Osama bin Laden?

Was it America in order to fight the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan?

Emphaticaly no! UBL's hatred for Western values predated America's role against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. He would not even meet with Americans during that time, and they were warned he would likely kill them when and if he ever encountered them.

GarySpFC  posted on  2009-12-13   0:18:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: All, *Religious History and Issues* (#79)

ping

GarySpFC  posted on  2009-12-13   0:19:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: GarySpFC (#77)

Everything you quoted happened in the Bible as well. What's that supposed to prove?

Happy Birthday Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone!

mel  posted on  2009-12-13   0:27:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: mel (#81)

Everything you quoted happened in the Bible as well. What's that supposed to prove?

Let me suggest you learn the difference between the Old Testament and New Testament prior to making that statement.

GarySpFC  posted on  2009-12-13   0:51:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: GarySpFC (#82)

I know the difference, and thank you for that statement. Jesus changed everything, but Jesus is God. Before Jesus, God didn't know what it was like to actually live on Earth in the flesh. After he sent Jesus, as himself incarnate, his ideas changed. Jesus brought love to the Earth. Jesus taught God to love. Instead of an eye for an eye, it became love thy enemy and turn the other cheek. Jesus was considered a radical by his fellow Jews. Did you know that the name Jesus means God Saves? Jesus also said that it was extremely difficult for the wealthy to enter the kingdom of heaven, as God, the Protector, takes care of physical needs.

I read where the Ten Commandments should no longer be relevent because they are in the Old Testament and the Old Testament is no longer relevent. I don't remember where I saw it, but that's not the case, as Jesus discusses the Ten Commandments as well, in the New Testament.

The only thing odd about the Bible is that it does not tell about Jesus' entire life. Only his birth, him at age 12, and them him at age 30 until his death 3 years later. They did discover other Testaments that are older than those included in the Bible. One of them talks about Jesus making birds from clay as a child and then bringing them to life. There is much more out there than we know. The Bible is not complete.

“cognitive dissonance” the rejection of facts when they conflict with important beliefs

mel  posted on  2009-12-13   1:29:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: mel, Tater, *Religious History and Issues* (#76)

Not at all....as long as they are well-educated in their religion, unlike those terrorists who call themselves Muslims.

After the events of September 11, the issue of violence and religion has once again come into intense discussions and debate. Although various political, socioeconomic and cultural factors have significantly contributed to the rise of violence and terrorism in contemporary fundamentalist Islam, we cannot ignore the religious dimension of this violence that goes back to the very heart and origin of Islam.

The point that we’d like to make is quite simple. While many Muslims are peace-loving, nonetheless, those who commit acts of violence and terror in the name of God can find ample justification for their actions, based on the teachings of the Qur’an and the sayings and examples from prophet Muhammad himself! We have often heard in the media that the relationship between Muslim terrorists and Islam is like that of KKK and Christianity. This analogy is clearly false. Christians who have engaged in violence are betraying the explicit teachings and examples of Jesus Christ. On the other hand, Muslims who take upon themselves to destroy their alleged enemies in the name of God can rightly claim to be following the commands of God in the Qur’an and imitating their prophet as their role model.

Our point, of course, should not be taken to imply that all faithful and devout Muslims must become violent in order to be true to the teachings of Islam. No doubt the majority of the Muslim world condemns acts of terror and violence. There are many schools of thought in Islam with various and often conflicting interpretations of the Qur’an. However, the important distinction that we are making is this: The minority groups in Islam who resort to violence are not an aberration to Islam but in fact can legitimately claim to be working within the basic parameters of Islamic Jihad. We will now turn to the evidence in support of our claim.

SUPPORT FOR VIOLENCE IN THE QUR’AN

The following are only some of the verses in the Qur’an that can and have been used in the history of Islam in support of violence in the name of God and the glories of martyrdom in a holy war.

2:190–193 “Fight in the cause of God those who fight you … And slay them wherever ye catch them … And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God  … ” 2:216 “Fighting is prescribed for you and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth and ye know not.” 2:224 “Then fight in the cause of God and know that God heareth and knoweth all things.”
3:157–158 “And if ye are slain or die in the way of God, forgiveness and mercy from God are far better than all they could amass. And if ye die, or are slain, Lo! It is unto God that ye are brought together.”
3:169 “Think not of those who are slain in God’s way as dead. Nay, they live finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord.”
3:195 “ …  Those who have … fought or been slain, verily I will blot out from them their iniquities and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath; a reward from the presence of God  … ”
4:101 “ …  For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.”
4:74, 75 “Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of God whether he is slain or gets victory, soon shall we give him a reward of great (value). Those who believe fight in the cause of God and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil, so fight ye against the friends of Satan, feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.”
4:89 “They but wish that ye should reject faith as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they. But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them  … ”
4:95 “Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt and those who strive and fight in the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than those who sit (at home).”
5:36 “The punishment of those who wage war against God and His apostle and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land. That is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.”
5:54 “O ye who believe. Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.”
8:12–17 “Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): ‘I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips off them. This because they contend against God and his apostle. If any contend against God and his apostle, God is strict in punishment … O ye who believe. When ye meet the unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day, unless it be a stratagem of war … he draws on himself the wrath of God and his abode is Hell, an evil refuge (indeed).’ ”
8:59–60 “Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly). They will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of God and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know  … ”
8:65 “O apostle! Rouse the believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred. If a hundred they will vanquish a thousand of the unbelievers, for these are a people without understanding.”
9:5 “ …  fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)  … ”
9:14 “Fight them, and God will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame. … ”
9:29 “Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and his apostle nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay the Jizya [religious tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
47:4 “Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks, at length when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them).… but if it had been God’s will, he could certainly have exacted retribution from them (himself), but (he lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of God, he will never let their deeds be lost.”
61:4 “Truly God loves those who fight in His cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure.”
A simple reading of such Qur’anic passages makes it obvious how easy it is for many Muslims to feel hatred and enmity against Jews, Christians, and other non- Muslims. Although many Muslims are very fond of quoting some of the more “open- minded” and “inclusive” verses of the Qur’an, one cannot ignore the weight and impact of the above passages on a devout Muslim who wants to find and obey the will of God as found in the Qur’an.

GarySpFC  posted on  2009-12-13   1:37:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: mel (#83)

I know the difference, and thank you for that statement. Jesus changed everything, but Jesus is God. Before Jesus, God didn't know what it was like to actually live on Earth in the flesh. After he sent Jesus, as himself incarnate, his ideas changed. Jesus brought love to the Earth. Jesus taught God to love. Instead of an eye for an eye, it became love thy enemy and turn the other cheek. Jesus was considered a radical by his fellow Jews. Did you know that the name Jesus means God Saves? Jesus also said that it was extremely difficult for the wealthy to enter the kingdom of heaven, as God, the Protector, takes care of physical needs.

Look up the word immutability, which is one of the attributes of God. It means God does not change.

“Jesus Christ” is a composite name made up of the personal name “Jesus” (from Gk Isous, which transliterates Heb/Aram yšû (a)Ó, a late form of Hebrew yhôšûaÓ, the meaning of which is “YHWH is salvation” or “YHWH saves/has saved”) and the title, assimilated in early Christianity to Jesus as a name, “Christ” (from Gk Christos, which translates Heb mš1a7; and Aram mš17;Ò, signifying “anointed” and referring in the context of eschatological expectation to the royal “son of David”). The name “Jesus Christ” thus binds together the historic figure Jesus with the messianic role and status that early Christian faith attributed to him. In Jesus’ own lifetime, his name, since it was common in Israel, called for a specifier: “Jesus the Galilean” (Matt 26:69; cf. 21:11), or, more often, “Jesus of Nazareth” or “Jesus the Nazarean.”

I read where the Ten Commandments should no longer be relevent because they are in the Old Testament and the Old Testament is no longer relevent. I don't remember where I saw it, but that's not the case, as Jesus discusses the Ten Commandments as well, in the New Testament.

Nine of the Ten were brought over into the New Testament. However, Christians are not saved by obeying any of the Ten or Nine, because they are under grace through faith, and not law.

The only thing odd about the Bible is that it does not tell about Jesus' entire life. Only his birth, him at age 12, and them him at age 30 until his death 3 years later. They did discover other Testaments that are older than those included in the Bible. One of them talks about Jesus making birds from clay as a child and then bringing them to life. There is much more out there than we know. The Bible is not complete.

The Gnostic Texts are not older than the New Testament texts we have today...no way. Furthermore, they contain many errors and are not in harmoney with the New Testament.

Everything is included in the New Testament which is sufficent for salvation.

GarySpFC  posted on  2009-12-13   2:17:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: GarySpFC (#85)

Other gospels circulating in the early Christian church were not included in the canon of the New Testament. They include magical stories of Jesus’s infancy, such as an account of his making clay birds and then bringing them to life. The Gospel of Thomas, one of the long-hidden manuscripts discovered in 1945 by a peasant in a cave near Nag Hammadi, Egypt, is of particular interest. Some scholars feel that its core may have been written even earlier than the canonical gospels. It contains many sayings in common with the other gospels but places the accent on mystical concepts of Jesus:

Jesus said: I am the Light that is above
them all. I am the All,
the All came forth from me and the All
attained to me. Cleave a (piece of ) wood,
I am there; lift up the stone and you will
find Me there.

You can say God does not change, but there is a definate difference between God's commands in the Old Testament versus the New Testament. Jesus made these changes. Not only did Jesus change some of the laws from the Old Testament, he extended others. I will give you an example.

According to Jesus: Those who commit murder are liable for judgment; those who are angry with their brothers are also liable [extended the law from the OT]. Committing adultery is wrong; looking at a woman lustfully is also wrong [extended the law from the OT]. Do not take an eye for an eye [as stated in the OT]; respond with love. Love not only your neighbors, but your enemies as well [a change from the OT]. Pray for those who persecute you.

Furthermore, as you state, other texts are not in harmony with the NT, the New Testament is not in harmony with itself. One gospel states one thing, while another Gospel states something different. I do understand the reasons for the differences and they in no way make the Bible false. They are simply different points of view from different viewers of the events. If you know what I mean.

It is extremely difficult for the wealthy to enter the kingdom of heaven. Those who consider themselves superior are more at odds with God than those who are aware of their sins. Those who sincerely repent—even if they are the hated toll-collectors, prostitutes, or ignorant common people—are more likely to receive God’s forgiveness than are the learned and self-righteous.
Happy Birthday, Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone!

mel  posted on  2009-12-13   16:50:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: mel (#86)

Other gospels circulating in the early Christian church were not included in the canon of the New Testament. They include magical stories of Jesus’s infancy, such as an account of his making clay birds and then bringing them to life. The Gospel of Thomas, one of the long-hidden manuscripts discovered in 1945 by a peasant in a cave near Nag Hammadi, Egypt, is of particular interest. Some scholars feel that its core may have been written even earlier than the canonical gospels. It contains many sayings in common with the other gospels but places the accent on mystical concepts of Jesus:

Jesus said: I am the Light that is above them all. I am the All, the All came forth from me and the All attained to me. Cleave a (piece of ) wood, I am there; lift up the stone and you will find Me there.

From the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary: On paleographical grounds P. Oxy. 1 has been assigned a date shortly after 200 C.E.; the copying of the other two Greek fragments is estimated to date from various decades in the mid–3d century. Analysis of the handwriting of the Coptic text, which is well preserved, indicates that it was copied just before the year 350. According to the critical edition of the Coptic text by Layton (1989: 7), the admixture of Sahidic and Subakhmimic forms indicates that the language of this translation is “a literary language,” apparently “written by a speaker” of Subakhmimic “attempting, artificially, to conform” to Sahidic. Freedman, D. N. (1996). The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary. New York: Doubleday.

From Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics: Gospel of Thomas, The. The Claim of the Critics. Some radical critics of the New Testament claim that the Gnostic (see GNOSTICISM) Gospel of Thomas is equal or superior to the New Testament and that it does not support the resurrection of Christ. The so- called Jesus Seminar places the Gospel of Thomas in their otherwise severely truncated Bible. Both stances are serious challenges to the historic Christian faith. The Gospel of Thomas was discovered in Nag Hammadi, Egypt, near Cairo in 1945 and was translated into English in 1977. While some have attempted to date parts of it earlier, the Gospel of Thomas is most reliably dated no earlier than A.D. 140–170. It contains 114 secret sayings of Jesus. Defenders of the Gospel of Thomas include Walter Baur, Frederick Wisse, A. Powell Davies, and Elaine Pagels. An Evaluation of the Credibility of the Gospel of Thomas. The best way to evaluate the credibility of the Gospel of Thomas is by way of comparison to the New Testament Gospels, which often the same critics have grave doubts about (see NEW TESTAMENT, HISTORICITY OF; NEW TESTAMENT DOCUMENTS, RELIABILITY OF; NEW TESTAMENT MANUSCRIPTS). When this comparison is made, the Gospel of Thomas comes up seriously short. The Canonical Gospels Are Much Earlier. Assuming the widely accepted dates of the Synoptic Gospels (ca. A.D. 60–80), the Gospel of Thomas falls nearly a century short. Indeed, there is evidence of even earlier dates for some Gospels (see NEW TESTAMENT, DATING OF), as even some liberal scholars admit (see Robinson, John A., all). O. C. Edwards asserts of the Gospel of Thomas and the canonical Gospels that “As historical reconstructions there is no way the two can claim equal credentials” (27). And Joseph Fitzmyer adds, “Time and again, she is blind to the fact that she is ignoring a good century of Christian existence in which these ‘gnostic Christians’ were simply not around” (123). The Gospel of Thomas Is Dependent on the Canonical Gospels. Even if the Gospel of Thomas could be shown to contain some authentic statements of Jesus, “no convincing case has been made that any given saying of Jesus in the Gospels depends on a saying in the Gospel of Thomas” (Boyd, 118). Rather, the reverse is true since the Gospel of Thomas presupposes truths found earlier in the canonical Gospels. The Gospel of Thomas Portrays a Second-Century Gnosticism. The Gospel of Thomas is influenced by the kind of Gnosticism prevalent in the second century. For instance, it puts into the mouth of Jesus these unlikely and demeaning words: “Every woman who will make herself male will enter the Kingdom of Heaven” (cited by Boyd, 118). The Gospel of Thomas’s Lack of Narrative Does Not Prove Jesus Did No Miracles. The fact that the author(s) of the Gospel of Thomas did not include narratives of Jesus does not mean they disbelieved in Jesus’ miracles. The book seems to be a collection of Jesus’ sayings rather than his deeds. The Canonical Gospels Are More Historically Trustworthy. There are numerous reasons why the New Testament Gospels are more trustworthy than the Gnostic ones. First, the earliest Christians were meticulous in preserving Jesus’ words and deeds. Second, the Gospel writers were close to the eyewitnesses and pursued the facts (Luke 1:1–4). Third, there is good evidence that the Gospel writers were honest reporters (see NEW TESTAMENT, HISTORICITY OF; WITNESSES, HUME’S CRITERIA FOR). Fourth, the overall picture of Jesus presented in the Gospels is the same. The Basic New Testament Canon Was Formed in the First Century. Contrary to claims of the critics, the basic New Testament canon was formed in the first century. The only books in dispute have no apologetic effect on the argument for the reliability of the historical material used to establish the deity of Christ. The New Testament itself reveals that a collection of books existed in the first century. Peter speaks of having Paul’s epistles (2 Peter 3:15–16). In fact, he considered them on a par with Old Testament “Scripture.” Paul had access to Luke’s Gospel, and quotes it in 1 Timothy 5:18. The churches were instructed to send their epistle on to other churches (Col. 4:16). Beyond the New Testament, there are extrabiblical canonical lists that support the existence of a New Testament canon (see Geisler and Nix, 294). Indeed, all the Gospels and Paul’s basic epistles are represented on these lists. Even the heretical canon of the Gnostic *Marcion (ca. A.D. 140) had the Gospel of Luke and ten of Paul’s epistles, including 1 Corinthians. The Second-Century Fathers Support the Canonical Gospels. The second-century Fathers cited a common body of books. This includes all the crucial books that support the historicity of Christ and his resurrection, namely, the Gospels, Acts, and 1 Corinthians. Clement of Roman (A.D. 95) cited the Gospels (Corinthians, 13, 42, 46). Ignatius (ca. 110–115) cited Luke 24:39 (Smyrnaeans 3). Polycarp (ca. 115) cited all the Synoptic Gospels (Philippians 2, 7). The Didache often cites the Synoptic Gospels (1, 3, 8, 9, 15–16). The Epistle of Barnabas (ca. 135) cites Matthew 22:14). Papias (ca. 125–140) in the Oracles speaks of Matthew, Mark (following Peter), and John (last) who wrote Gospels. He says three times that Mark made no errors. What is more, the Fathers considered the Gospels and Paul’s epistles to be on a par with the inspired Old Testament. Thus the Fathers vouched for the accuracy of the canonical Gospels in the early second century, well before the Gospel of Thomas was even written. The Resurrection Account. The Gospel of Thomas does acknowledge Jesus’ resurrection. In fact, the living, resurrected Christ himself speaks in it (34:25–27; 45:1–16). True, it does not stress the resurrection, but this is to be expected since it is primarily a “sayings” source rather than historical narration. Furthermore, the Gnostic theological bias against matter would downplay the bodily resurrection. Conclusion. The evidence for the authenticity of the Gospel of Thomas does not even compare with that for the New Testament. The New Testament dates from the first century; the Gospel of Thomas, the second. The New Testament is verified by many lines of evidence, including self-references, early canonical lists, thousands of citations by the early Fathers, and the well-established dates for the Synoptic Gospels. Geisler, N. L. (1999). Baker encyclopedia of Christian apologetics. Baker reference library (295–296). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.

You can say God does not change, but there is a definate difference between God's commands in the Old Testament versus the New Testament. Jesus made these changes. Not only did Jesus change some of the laws from the Old Testament, he extended others. I will give you an example. God did not change, but there are two different covenants. There is a big difference you are missing. Christians are not under law, but grace.

According to Jesus: Those who commit murder are liable for judgment; those who are angry with their brothers are also liable [extended the law from the OT]. Committing adultery is wrong; looking at a woman lustfully is also wrong [extended the law from the OT]. Do not take an eye for an eye [as stated in the OT]; respond with love. Love not only your neighbors, but your enemies as well [a change from the OT]. Pray for those who persecute you.

Those who commit murder of either sort are under law, NOT grace.

Furthermore, as you state, other texts are not in harmony with the NT, the New Testament is not in harmony with itself. One gospel states one thing, while another Gospel states something different. I do understand the reasons for the differences and they in no way make the Bible false. They are simply different points of view from different viewers of the events. If you know what I mean.

Those are labeled apparent contradictions, apparent but not real. Only those not grounded in the Scriptures see contradictions. I have never found one.

Bible, Alleged Errors in. Critics claim the Bible is filled with errors. Some even speak of thousands of mistakes. However, orthodox Christians through the ages have claimed that the Bible is without error in the original text (“autographs”; see Geisler, Decide for Yourself). “If we are perplexed by any apparent contradiction in Scripture,” Augustine wisely noted, “it is not allowable to say, ‘The author of this book is mistaken’; but either the manuscript is faulty, or the translation is wrong, or you have not understood” (Augustine, 11.5). Not one error that extends to the original text of the Bible has ever been demonstrated. Geisler, N. L. (1999). Baker encyclopedia of Christian apologetics. Baker reference library (74). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.

GarySpFC  posted on  2009-12-13   20:29:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: GarySpFC (#87)

I do understand the reasons for the differences and they in no way make the Bible false.

You missed that part of my post?

It is extremely difficult for the wealthy to enter the kingdom of heaven. Those who consider themselves superior are more at odds with God than those who are aware of their sins. Those who sincerely repent—even if they are the hated toll-collectors, prostitutes, or ignorant common people—are more likely to receive God’s forgiveness than are the learned and self-righteous.
Happy Birthday, Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone!

mel  posted on  2009-12-13   21:08:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: mel (#88)

Furthermore, as you state, other texts are not in harmony with the NT, the New Testament is not in harmony with itself. One gospel states one thing, while another Gospel states something different. I do understand the reasons for the differences and they in no way make the Bible false. They are simply different points of view from different viewers of the events. If you know what I mean.

The point I was making is the New Testament is in harmony with itself.

GarySpFC  posted on  2009-12-14   11:20:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: GarySpFC (#78)

Yes, we can find extremists in all religions....

That said, the foundation for Islam is warfare, and with Christianity it is love for God and one's neighbor.

The truth. Clear and simply.

Well done, G-Man - thanks.

Liberator  posted on  2009-12-14   11:56:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: mel, ALL (#83)

Before Jesus, God didn't know what it was like to actually live on Earth in the flesh.

After he [God the Father and Creator] sent Jesus, as himself incarnate, his ideas changed. Jesus brought love to the Earth. Jesus taught God to love.

Mel, I will say this about you - I admire that you are at least attempting to seek the truth your spirit obviously hungers for...There is a battle being waged over your soul.

But Satan roams the world like a ravenous lion, hoping to deceive and devour us all a thousand different ways every day in the most subtle of ways.

God always was; He was the the same yesterday as today as tomorrow. Jesus as one with His Father and Creator of the Universe could/would not "teach God" a thing.

With all sincerity, I hope the Truth is revealed to you. The mission of Satan is to plant the seed of doubt and diversion, hoping it eventually crowds-out the Lord's seed, young shoot, or even established sapling.

If there was any one book I'd recommend reading, it'd be Dave Hunt's (yes, THAT Dave Hunt) 'Occult Invasion: The Subtle Seduction of the World and Church'

As one reviewer at Amazon described the book:

"Dave Hunt investigates a whole plethora of subjects which are Occult-based or Occult-related."

"These stem from spirit communication & possession, Eastern Mysticism, the New Age movements, Holistic Medicine, Drugs, Evolution, Psychology, aspects of the Catholic Church, UFO's, Angels, Ghosts, Near Death Experiences and Spiritual Warfare, to mention just a few."

It's a fascinating book to read regardless of one's faith.

And then there are even trivial tidbits like this: Did you know the Ouija Board was "invented" to contact the dead of WWI?

Liberator  posted on  2009-12-14   12:39:12 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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