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Bang / Guns
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Title: Judge Neil Gorsuch: Some Cause for Concern (Stop & Frisk, Disarm)
Source: Ameican Thinker
URL Source: http://www.americanthinker.com/arti ... ch_some_cause_for_concern.html
Published: Feb 3, 2017
Author: Lawrence D. Pratt and William J. Olson
Post Date: 2017-02-03 15:21:48 by Hondo68
Ping List: *Bang List*     Subscribe to *Bang List*
Keywords: None
Views: 23820
Comments: 66

In recent days, news outlets have been reporting that 10th Circuit judge Neil Gorsuch has now risen to the top of President Trump's list of potential Supreme Court nominees.  He apparently replaces Judge William Pryor, who was widely reported as previously leading the pack of potential nominees.  Judge Pryor faced significant backlash from many on the right, including Evangelical Christians, criticizing Pryor's apparent support of the radical homosexual and transgender agenda.

The danger in being the front runner for a spot on the High Court is that you receive intense scrutiny, and, as with most candidates, Judge Gorsuch is difficult to evaluate fully. 

Having spent some time digging into Judge Gorsuch's background, we have found many good indicators.  First, we should say that we personally knew his mother – Anne Gorsuch Burford, a lawyer whom President Reagan appointed in 1981 as director of the Environmental Protection Agency.  Anne was both principled and fearless – taking many arrows in her faithful pursuit of President Reagan's environmental agenda.  Sadly, the Reagan administration failed to provide her the backing she deserved, leading to her early departure from that position.  Judge Gorsuch's distinguished maternal pedigree should not be overlooked.

As to Judge Gorsuch's judicial record, he authored the excellent opinion in United States v. Ackerman, 831 F.3d 1292 (10th Cir. 2016), which, in an alternative holding, determined that government accessing a person's emails constitutes a "search" under the revitalized property rights trespass test articulated by Justice Scalia in the case of United States v. Jones, 132 S.Ct. 945 (2012).  Additionally, Judge Gorsuch wrote a concurring opinion in the 10th Circuit, in what became the Hobby Lobby case in the U.S. Supreme Court, determining that the religious freedom of Christian businesses trumps the "right" of a woman to have her employer subsidize the killing of her unborn baby.  Finally, Judge Gorsuch is a vocal critic of the modern "Administrative State" – advocating the elimination of the doctrine of "Chevron deferense," which has given unelected and unaccountable federal bureaucrats vast and unconstitutional power over just about every aspect of our lives.

On the other hand, there is reason for pause with Judge Gorsuch's record.  Judge Gorsuch joined in one opinion, United States v. Rodriguez, 739 F.3d 481 (11th Cir. 2013), which causes us to have some concern about his understanding of the relationship between the government and an armed citizenry.  To be fair, Judge Gorsuch did not write the Rodriguez opinion – his colleague, Judge Bobby Baldock, was the author.  Nevertheless, Judge Gorsuch joined the opinion.  He could have filed a principled dissenting opinion, or even a concurring opinion agreeing only in the judgment.

The facts of the case are these.  A New Mexico policeman observed Mr. Rodriguez, a convenience store clerk, carrying a concealed handgun.  Carrying a concealed loaded handgun is illegal in New Mexico without a permit but legal if one has a license to do so.  The officer, upon seeing a Rodriguez's handgun, detained him, then – acting first and asking questions later – forcibly disarmed Rodriguez.  After finding out that Rodriguez did not, in fact, have a license to carry and, indeed, was a convicted felon, the officer placed him under arrest.

Of course, hard cases make bad law.  But the precedent from the Rodriguez opinion will affect police-citizen relations in New Mexico, and possibly elsewhere in the Tenth Circuit, for many years to come.  Not bothering to figure out the legality of Rodriguez's firearm before detaining and disarming him, the officer's initial actions would have been the same even if Mr. Rodriguez had been a lawful gun owner.

According to the 10th Circuit's opinion, the police are justified in forcibly disarming every armed citizen based on nothing more than the presence of a concealed firearm.  This allows the police to treat every law-abiding gun owner like a criminal – which, in many cases we have seen, includes rough treatment such as grabbing him, twisting his arm behind his back, slamming him down on the ground, and handcuffing him.  Far too many police officers do not like anyone to be armed other than themselves and have taken it upon themselves to intimidate those who dare to exercise Second Amendment rights.  Under the Rodriguez decision, only after being forcibly disarmed and detained would a citizen be entitled to demonstrate that he was lawfully exercising his Second Amendment rights.

The Circuit Court based this decision on Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968) – the "stop and frisk" doctrine.   One of the holdings from Terry is that, if the police have "reasonable suspicion" that a person is both "armed and dangerous," they can temporarily seize his weapon to keep everyone safe.  Of course, anyone with a smidgeon of common sense knows that just being an "armed" law-abiding citizen does not also make a person "dangerous" any more than a police officer with a gun should be considered dangerous.

Unfortunately, the Rodriguez opinion allows the police to conflate the two concepts and treat all armed persons as if they were automatically dangerous.  According to the panel opinion joined by Judge Gorsuch, the mere presence of a loaded concealed firearm "alone is enough to justify [the officer's] action in removing the handgun from Defendant's waistband for the protection of himself and others."

To be sure, Rodriguez did not raise a Second Amendment claim before the court, and the court cited various Fourth Amendment cases to justify its bad decision.  But judges cannot completely hide behind precedent.  Judge Gorsuch was free to express his disagreements with those precedents, even if he felt obliged to concur in the result.  But that is not what he did.

Instead, the court went so far as to quote Justice John Marshall Harlan II in Terry for the pre-Heller assertion that "'concealed weapons create an immediate and severe danger to the public.'"  Is that what Judge Gorsuch thinks of the 14.5 million law-abiding Americans with concealed carry permits?  That they are an immediate and severe danger to the public?

Fortunately, the Framers disagreed, emphasizing in the Second Amendment that an armed populace is not only beneficial to, but indeed "necessary to" the preservation of a "free state."  Unfortunately, in almost all of the countries of the world, the government considers an armed citizen a threat.  But in the United States, the police should consider an armed citizenry one of the sources of strength of the nation.  It is hard to imagine a better way to discourage law-abiding people from carrying guns than to do what the 10th Circuit did, and sanction the police forcibly disarming anyone seen carrying a gun.

At the end of the day, a single opinion such as this is not be enough to derail a Supreme Court nomination, especially since Judge Gorsuch did not even write the opinion.  But he certainly did join the opinion.  And if he is nominated to the High Court, a pro-gun United States senator or two should most certainly inquire as to this decision and ask Judge Gorsuch to explain whether he really believes that the police should be free to treat all armed citizens as though they were dangerous criminals.

Lawrence D. Pratt is executive director emeritus of Gun Owners of America.  Twitter:   https://twitter.com/larrypratt.  William J. Olson is an attorney in private practice in Virginia with William J. Olson, P.C. and represents Gun Owners Foundation.  Twitter:  https://twitter.com/Olsonlaw.


Poster Comment:

Gorsuck is close to Trump's stance of Stop, Frisk & Confiscate guns.

http://hotair.com/archives/2016/09/22/trump-stop-frisk-great-way-cops-seize-guns/(1 image)

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#1. To: hondo68, GrandIsland (#0)

On the other hand, there is reason for pause with Judge Gorsuch's record. Judge Gorsuch joined in one opinion, United States v. Rodriguez, 739 F.3d 481 (11th Cir. 2013), which causes us to have some concern about his understanding of the relationship between the government and an armed citizenry. To be fair, Judge Gorsuch did not write the Rodriguez opinion – his colleague, Judge Bobby Baldock, was the author. Nevertheless, Judge Gorsuch joined the opinion. He could have filed a principled dissenting opinion, or even a concurring opinion agreeing only in the judgment.

The facts of the case are these. A New Mexico policeman observed Mr. Rodriguez, a convenience store clerk, carrying a concealed handgun. Carrying a concealed loaded handgun is illegal in New Mexico without a permit but legal if one has a license to do so. The officer, upon seeing a Rodriguez's handgun, detained him, then – acting first and asking questions later – forcibly disarmed Rodriguez. After finding out that Rodriguez did not, in fact, have a license to carry and, indeed, was a convicted felon, the officer placed him under arrest.

Further,

To be sure, Rodriguez did not raise a Second Amendment claim before the court, and the court cited various Fourth Amendment cases to justify its bad decision.

Rather than accept the yellow journalism characterism of the court opinion in Rodriguez, it is preferable to review the actual opinion.

Taking the second quote first, I would ask which part of the Second Amendment protects the right of a convicted felon to keep and bear a concealed stolen weapon?

The yellow journalists are adequately addressed by the actual court opinion.

http://lawofselfdefense.com/law_case/us-v-rodriguez-739-f-3d-481-10th-ct-app-2013/

US v. Rodriguez, 739 F.3d 481 (10th Ct. App. 2013)

State:
Date: December 31, 2013
Defendant: Rodriguez

United States v. Rodriguez, 739 F.3d 481 (10th Ct. App. 2013)

United States Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit

December 31, 2013, Filed

No. 12-2203Reporter

739 F.3d 481 * | 2013 U.S. App. LEXIS 25853 ** | 2013 WL 6851128

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Plaintiff – Appellee, v. DANIEL MANUEL RODRIGUEZ, Defendant – Appellant.

Counsel:

Scott M. Davidson, The Appellate Law Office of Scott M. Davidson, Albuquerque, New Mexico, for Defendant-Appellant.

James R. W. Braun, Assistant United States Attorney (Kenneth J. Gonzales, United States Attorney, with him on the brief), Albuquerque, New Mexico, for Plaintiff-Appellee.

Judges:

Before GORSUCH and BALDOCK, Circuit Judges, and JACKSON, District Judge.

Opinion by:

BALDOCK

Section 30-7-1 of the New Mexico Criminal Code defines “[c]arrying a deadly weapon” as “being armed with a deadly weapon by having it on the person, or in close proximity thereto, so that the weapon is readily accessible for use.” Section 30-7-2 of the Code is entitled “Unlawful carrying of a deadly weapon.” Subject to five enumerated exceptions, subsection (A) proscribes “carrying a concealed loaded firearm or any other type of deadly weapon anywhere[.]” N.M. Stat. Ann. § 30-7-2(A). The issue presented in this appeal is whether a police officer who observes a handgun tucked in the waistband underneath the shirt of a convenience store employee has reasonable suspicion that the employee is unlawfully carrying a deadly weapon in violation of § 30-7-2(A), in turn justifying a “stop and frisk.” The answer is yes.

I.

We succinctly state the relevant facts. Around 6:00 p.m. on July 27, 2011, Albuquerque Police Officer Frank Munoz responded to a dispatch informing him that two employees of the “Pit Stop” convenience store and gas station, located at 6102 Central Avenue SW in a reportedly “high crime” area, were showing each other handguns. Tr. vol. 3, at 8, 44. Fellow Officer Steven Miller also responded to the dispatch. Officer Munoz described the store as being “pretty small on the inside.” Id. at 13. Upon entering the store, Officer Munoz, accompanied by Officer Miller, observed Defendant Daniel Rodriguez a “couple feet away” stocking shelves. Id. at 14. As Defendant bent over, Officer Munoz noticed a silver handgun tucked in the back waistband of his pants. Defendant’s shirt concealed the handgun when he stood upright. Officer Munoz told Defendant, “Let me see your hands, and let’s step outside.” Id. at 51. At the suppression hearing, Officer Munoz testified:

[Defendant] asked us what for, “What did I do?” And since we were in a pretty cramped area when we walked in, I didn’t want myself and Officer Miller or [Defendant], all of us, to be in that cramped area in case anything occurred, so I told him, “Let’s step outside,” and that I needed to ask him a question. He was a little upset and wanted to know what he had done. I told him to step outside. He then went past myself and Officer Miller to the door. As he pushed the door open once again his shirt came up, and I saw the gun, and it was at that time I pulled the gun out of the back of his waistband.

Id. at 16. When asked why he removed the gun from Defendant’s waistband, Officer Munoz stated, “Just for officer safety, until we could figure out what was going on and why he had a firearm.” Id.

Outside the store, Officer Munoz promptly asked Defendant why he was concealing a handgun. Defendant responded that “somebody had shot at him at that same location at the gas station.” Id. at 25. Officer Munoz asked Defendant whether he had a permit to carry the handgun. Defendant said he did not. Officer Munoz instructed Defendant to turn around and place ]his hands in the frisk position on a nearby truck. Visible tattoos on Defendant’s legs prompted Officer Munoz, a former prison guard, to ask Defendant if he had been arrested. Defendant stated he recently had been released from prison. Following an unremarkable “pat search” of Defendant, Officer Munoz permitted him to sit on the curb and smoke a cigarette. Id. at 19.

A federal grand jury charged Defendant with one count of being a felon in possession of a firearm and ammunition in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(g)(1) and 924(a)(2). Defendant filed a motion to suppress evidence, claiming a number of constitutional violations arising out of the foregoing incident. The district court denied his motion in a lengthy opinion. United States v. Rodriguez, 836 F. Supp. 2d 1258 (D.N.M. 2011). Defendant subsequently entered a conditional] plea of guilty pursuant to Fed. R. Crim. P. 11(a)(2). After the court sentenced him to 30-months imprisonment, Defendant appealed only his Fourth Amendment claims that Officer Munoz unreasonably seized him and removed the handgun from his waistband. According to Defendant, “[p]ossession of a concealed firearm in the State of New Mexico, standing alone, cannot be the basis for the type of investigative detention and weapons seizure that [he] was subjected to.” Def’s Op. Br. at 15. Notably, Defendant does not dispute the district court’s findings, which are consistent with our recitation of the facts. The only question for us is whether the law as applied to those facts supports Defendant’s claim that Officer Munoz violated his Fourth Amendment rights. We review de novo the district court’s determination that the officer’s actions were reasonable within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment. See Ornelas v. United States, 517 U.S. 690, 699, 116 S. Ct. 1657, 134 L. Ed. 2d 911 (1996). Exercising jurisdiction pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 1291, we affirm.

[...]

B.

At the commencement of their encounter, Officer Munoz knew Defendant was carrying a concealed handgun in his back waistband. Officer Munoz saw the handgun because Defendant was bending over stocking shelves. The only express element of the crime of unlawfully carrying a deadly weapon, as defined in N.M. Stat. Ann. § 30-7-2(A), that Officer Munoz lacked personal knowledge of bore upon the handgun’s condition. Was the gun loaded or unloaded? See N.M. Stat. Ann. § 30-7-2(B) (carrying an unloaded firearm does not violate § 30-7-2(A)). But Officer Munoz did not have to be certain the handgun was loaded to justify Defendant’s seizure; he only had to reasonably suspect the gun was loaded. See Terry, 392 U.S. at 27. “Probable cause does not require the same type of specific evidence of each element of the offense as would be needed to support a conviction.” Adams v. Williams, 407 U.S. 143, 149, 92 S. Ct. 1921, 32 L. Ed. 2d 612 (1972). Necessarily then, neither does the less demanding standard of reasonable suspicion require such evidence.

A prudent officer under the circumstances confronting Officer Munoz could reasonably suspect Defendant’s handgun was loaded rather than waiting to find out, thus providing the officer all the suspicion he needed to seize Defendant based on a violation of § 30-7-2(A). One of the basic rules of gun safety promulgated worldwide is to “[a]ssume every gun to be loaded . . . and treat it accordingly.” Int’l Hunter Educ. Ass’n, Firearm Safety: Basic Safety Rules, homestudy.ihea.com/firearmssafety/01actt.htm (visited December 12, 2013). Moreover, that Defendant’s handgun was probably loaded is simply a “common sense conclusion[] about human behavior” that Officer Munoz reasonably could draw from the fact Defendant sought to conceal the gun on his person. Cortez, 449 U.S. at 418. (Defendant has never suggested he was openly carrying the handgun). The principal purpose of carrying a concealed handgun is to assail another or defend oneself. An unloaded firearm serves neither of these purposes well, making the fact that Defendant’s handgun was loaded a distinct possibility.

Defendant says that instead of seizing him, Officer Munoz simply should have asked him some questions:

[T]he officers would have had a sufficient basis to enter the store and engage [Defendant] in an inquiry as to whether he had permission or a permit for the gun he was carrying. Had [he] either refused to produce a valid permit or admitted to wrongdoing, the officers at that point might have had reasonable suspicion to detain him to investigate the situation further. But in this case, the officers exceeded their authority under the law and seized [his] weapon with[out] a reasonable suspicion that he was engaging in criminal activity and without an articulable basis to believe he was dangerous in any way.

Def’s Op. Br. at 34. (internal citation omitted). We disagree. Although Officer Munoz could have sought to engage Defendant in a consensual encounter, the law did not require him to do so—and for good reason.

Given the confined space in which the parties found themselves at the outset of their encounter, Officer Munoz exercised sound judgment in declining to question Defendant before detaining him. Officer Munoz explained, “I didn’t want myself and Officer Miller or [Defendant], all of us, to be in that cramped area in case anything occurred[.]” Tr. vol. 3, at 16. No officer reasonably suspecting criminal activity—as Officer Munoz did here—”should have to ask one question and take the risk that the answer might be a bullet.” Terry, 392 U.S. at 33 (Harlan, J., concurring). “The reasonableness of [an] officer’s decision to stop a suspect does not turn on the availability of less intrusive investigatory techniques.” Sokolow, 490 U.S. at 11. “Such a rule would unduly hamper the police’s ability to make swift, on-the-spot decisions . . . and it would require courts to indulge in unrealistic second-guessing.” Id. (internal quotation marks omitted).

What Defendant effectively claims is that the law required Officer Munoz to inquire into the applicability of § 30-7-2(A)’s exceptions before seizing him. Of course, Officer Munoz did not know at the outset of their encounter whether Defendant was “in possession of a valid concealed handgun license.” N.M. Stat. Ann. § 30-7-2(A)(5). Nor did Officer Munoz know whether Defendant was “an owner, lessee, tenant or licensee” of the convenience store. Id. § 30-7-2(A)(1). That New Mexico excepts certain acts or classes of individuals from a law that bans the carrying of a concealed loaded firearm, however, did not negate Officer Munoz’s reasonable suspicion that Defendant’s possession of a concealed handgun was unlawful. See Reid, 448 U.S. at 441 (recognizing that “wholly lawful conduct” may give rise to reasonable suspicion). Neither of these exceptions to § 30-7-2(A)’s prohibition was readily apparent when Officer Munoz seized Defendant. Officer Munoz had no affirmative obligation prior to seizing Defendant—at the risk of harm to himself and others—to inquire of him whether his possession of the handgun fell within the classes excepted by the statute. Cf. Gatlin, 613 F.3d at 378 (“[U]nder Delaware law, carrying a concealed handgun is a crime to which possessing a valid license is an affirmative defense, and an officer can presume a subject’s possession is not lawful until proven otherwise.”).

In the end, Defendant grasps at straws. He says the question of whether an officer may conduct an investigative detention based “solely” on the presence of a concealed firearm “is analogous to the question of whether an officer can pull over any motor vehicle he chooses in order to determine whether the driver is properly licensed and in lawful possession of the car.” Def’s Op. Br. at 27. We think not. To be sure, any construction of a motor vehicle statute permitting such random stops, however the statute is worded, would be unconstitutional. In Delaware v. Prouse, 440 U.S. 648, 99 S. Ct. 1391, 59 L. Ed. 2d 660 (1979), the Supreme Court held the Fourth Amendment prohibits an officer from stopping a vehicle for the sole purpose of checking the driver’s license and registration, where neither probable cause nor reasonable suspicion exists to believe the motorist is driving the vehicle contrary to the laws governing the operation of motor vehicles. Id. at 650, 663. The Court reasoned:

It seems common sense that the percentage of all drivers on the road who are driving without a license is very small and that the number of licensed drivers who will be stopped in order to find one unlicensed operator will be large indeed. The contribution to highway safety made by discretionary stops selected from among drivers generally will therefore be marginal at best. . . . In terms of actually discovering unlicensed drivers or deterring them from driving, the spot check does not appear sufficiently productive to qualify as a reasonable law enforcement practice under the Fourth Amendment.

Id. at 659-60.

Driving a car, however, is not like carrying a concealed handgun. Driving a vehicle is an open activity; concealing a handgun is a clandestine act. Because by definition an officer cannot see a properly concealed handgun, he cannot randomly stop those individuals carrying such weapon. Officer Munoz responded to a dispatch reporting two employees of the convenience store were showing each other handguns. Once at the store, he witnessed Defendant carrying the concealed weapon only because Defendant was bending over and his shirt was untucked. Moreover, unlike the random stop of a motorist, we may safely assume the contribution to public safety made by the stop of an individual known to be carrying a concealed handgun will hardly be insignificant since “[c]oncealed weapons create an immediate and severe danger to the public.” Terry, 392 U.S. at 31 (Harlan, J., concurring).

Randomly stopping a vehicle to check the driver’s license and registration is more comparable to randomly stopping an individual openly carrying a handgun (which incidentally is lawful in New Mexico). The Supreme Court held the former unconstitutional. Whether the latter is constitutionally suspect is a question for another day. But where a police officer in New Mexico has personal knowledge that an individual is carrying a concealed handgun, the officer has reasonable suspicion that a violation of N.M. Stat. Ann. § 30-7-2(A) is occurring absent a readily apparent exception to subsection (A)’s prohibition. Accordingly, Officer Munoz’s initial seizure of Defendant was “justified at its inception” and therefore passes Fourth Amendment scrutiny. Terry, 392 U.S. at 22.

V.

This brings us to the manner in which Officer Munoz carried out Defendant’s seizure. Recall Officer Munoz pulled the gun from Defendant’s waistband as Defendant was going out the door. Once Defendant promptly acknowledged he did not have a license to carry the handgun, Officer Miller ran the check that reported the handgun stolen. Defendant’s sole argument in this regard is that Officer Munoz unlawfully dispossessed him of his handgun as he exited the convenience store which, in turn, permitted Officer Miller to run a check of the gun. See Adams, 407 U.S. at 145 (analyzing as a Terry search defendant’s contention that the initial seizure of his pistol, upon which the subsequent search rested, was unlawful).

“[T]o proceed from a stop to a frisk, the police officer must reasonably suspect that the person stopped is armed and dangerous.” Johnson, 555 U.S. at 326-27. Defendant acknowledges he was armed, but claims Officer Munoz had no reason to believe he was dangerous. We have already observed that a prudent officer could reasonably suspect Defendant’s handgun was loaded. That alone is enough to justify Officer Munoz’s action in removing the handgun from Defendant’s waistband for the protection of himself and others. But even if Defendant’s handgun had not been loaded, the Supreme Court’s decision in McLaughlin v. United States, 476 U.S. 16, 106 S. Ct. 1677, 90 L. Ed. 2d 15 (1986), forecloses his argument that the gun posed no immediate threat to the officers. In McLaughlin, the Court explained an unloaded handgun is a “dangerous weapon:”

[A] gun is an article that is typically and characteristically dangerous; the use for which it is manufactured and sold is a dangerous one, and the law reasonably may presume that such an article is always dangerous even though it may not be armed at a particular time or place.

Id. at 17.

We will not deny an officer making a lawful investigatory stop the ability to protect himself from an armed suspect whose propensities are unknown. See Adams, 407 U.S. at 146. Officer Munoz did no more than was required to retrieve the gun. Officer Munoz was entitled to remove Defendant’s handgun, not to discover evidence of a crime, but to permit him and Officer Miller to pursue their investigation without fear of violence. See id. As the Supreme Court observed in Adams, “[T]he frisk for weapons might be equally necessary and reasonable, whether or not carrying a concealed weapon violated any applicable state law.” Id. Accordingly, Officer Munoz’s act of dispossessing Defendant of his handgun subsequent to his seizure was “reasonably related in scope to the circumstances which justified the interference in the first place.” Terry, 392 U.S. at 20.

For the foregoing reasons, the order of the district court denying Defendant’s motion to suppress is—AFFIRMED.

nolu chan  posted on  2017-02-03   16:45:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: nolu chan, redleghunter (#1)

Rather than accept the yellow journalism characterism of the court opinion

aking the second quote first, I would ask which part of the Second Amendment protects the right of a convicted felon to keep and bear a concealed stolen weapon?

Larry Pratt of GOA is yellow journalism? No. Maybe red thinks that he's "going negative"?

"The People", and "Shall not be infringed" (2nd Amendment). No loopholes there for calling ex-cons names, and then taking their God given inalienable rights. Or is the BOR "yellow journalism"?

"Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone".

The D&R Party is a suicide cult!

Hondo68  posted on  2017-02-03   17:37:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: hondo68 (#2)

Larry Pratt of GOA is yellow journalism?

To the gun-grabbers here he is.

“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul

Those who most loudly denounce Fake News are typically those most aggressively disseminating it.

Deckard  posted on  2017-02-03   18:04:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Deckard (#3)

The D&R Party is a suicide cult!

Hondo68  posted on  2017-02-03   18:27:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: nolu chan (#1)

To be sure, Rodriguez did not raise a Second Amendment claim before the court, and the court cited various Fourth Amendment cases to justify its bad decision.

Rather than accept the yellow journalism characterism of the court opinion in Rodriguez, it is preferable to review the actual opinion.

Taking the second quote first, I would ask which part of the Second Amendment protects the right of a convicted felon to keep and bear a concealed stolen weapon?

It was foremost, almost exclusively, a search and seizure case.

That the search/seizure involved a handgun was judicially incidental to the law being considered.

I don't see how they fault Gorsuch for failing to file a dissenting opinion. They never outline exactly what opinion they think he should have issued to protect the rights of gunowners from a stop-and-frisk if they happen to be convicted felons. People need to think hard about this. I think most CCW permit holders will grant some leeway here. They don't want convicted felons to think they can carry CCW without a license and will probably be willing to accept an occasional stop-and-frisk against legit CCW holders as the price for stronger enforcement against the criminal element that is the reason they choose to CCW to begin with.

If they want to tar Gorsuch, they need to do a lot better than this. Nor do they take any note whatsoever of his many positive merits as a jurist.

Gorsuch is as good as Scalia on any issue (assuming he is as pro-life as Scalia) but he is also a skeptic of Chevron doctrine (which Scalia was way too weak on) and he shares Scalia's loathing for any consideration of legislative commentary (as opposed to a plain reading of the text of any law; this being the antithesis of the contortions by Roberts to uphold ObamaCare). Even Kagan praises his legal prose in opinions as lucid, even lyrical. That is very high praise and it is certainly true that Scalia and other famous justices all possessed considerable literary skills and an aptitude for combining them with profound legal thought in writing court opinions. People tend to forget that most legal opinions written by judges are rather horrible to read and a well-written one does have more impact on legal thought and the direction taken by lower courts in subsequent cases. Great writing on the bench from a strong mind does have a peculiar power to influence the entire judiciary.

Gorsuch is not perfect. No justice with a record is. But he is surprisingly good on every issue and has a moderate personality, making it harder for the Dems to Bork him.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-02-03   18:32:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: hondo68, redleghunter, nolu chan (#2) (Edited)

"The People", and "Shall not be infringed" (2nd Amendment). No loopholes there for calling ex-cons names, and then taking their God given inalienable rights.

I think that is a level of Second Amendment purity that is very much in the minority among gun owners.

Felons, in particular felons convicted of violent crime or any gun crime, are not going to be regarded as having some sort of unlimited gun rights as most RKBA people advocate for.

I think there is some strong movement on the Right to be more explicitly supportive of cops, giving them the benefit of the doubt on stop-and-frisk, especially in urban areas with high crime.

BTW, I do admire Larry Pratt of GOA and have for many years. I do think he isn't weighing Gorsuch's pros and cons properly.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-02-03   18:36:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: hondo68, nolu chan (#1)

Hondo looks like you've been "Channed" once more. Lol.

redleghunter  posted on  2017-02-03   20:24:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: redleghunter, Nolu Chan, *The Two Parties ARE the Same* (#7)

Kelly Ayotte, Neil Gorsuch, and Dianne Feinstein celebrate the "New Living Constitution"

It's SO trendy! You and Nolu will love it, D&R party.

The D&R Party is a suicide cult!

Hondo68  posted on  2017-02-04   0:22:00 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: nolu chan (#1)

Taking the second quote first, I would ask which part of the Second Amendment protects the right of a convicted felon to keep and bear a concealed stolen weapon?

Remove the "STOLEN",and the Second Amendment is fine with a convicted felon being in possession of a firearm. It used to be routine for criminals leaving prison to be handed their guns back when they were released.

It was only after the un-Constitutional GCA was enacted that it became illegal for any free citizen to be in possession of a firearm.

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when itís the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-02-04   8:51:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Tooconservative (#5)

I think most CCW permit holders will grant some leeway here. They don't want convicted felons to think they can carry CCW without a license and will probably be willing to accept an occasional stop-and-frisk against legit CCW holders as the price for stronger enforcement against the criminal element that is the reason they choose to CCW to begin with.

You seem to have lost your mind.

Convicted felons who have served their time/paid their debt to society and been released from prison have the same right to self-defense as any other American,and the Second Amendment applies to ALL Americans.

Anything else is un-American.

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when itís the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-02-04   8:55:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Tooconservative (#6)

Felons, in particular felons convicted of violent crime or any gun crime, are not going to be regarded as having some sort of unlimited gun rights as most RKBA people advocate for.

I think there is some strong movement on the Right to be more explicitly supportive of cops, giving them the benefit of the doubt on stop-and-frisk, especially in urban areas with high crime.

I think you are wrong on both points. Especially as pertaining to cops. I see cops being a MUCH bigger danger to me than crooks because at least I can legally defend myself from criminals that aren't wearing badges.

Not to mention the fact that there are so many laws today that most of us have committed a felony at some time in our lives,even if we didn't know it at the time.

The FACT is laws are no longer written to protect the people. They are written to protect the cops and the elites that run the system.

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when itís the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-02-04   9:00:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: sneakypete (#10)

I believe that violent felons should lose their right to bear arms. Non violent "felons" should have all their rights.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-02-04   11:34:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: A K A Stone (#12)

I believe that violent felons should lose their right

I agree.

Peter Puffer might agree, but then he'll screw you over by never stating a crime he feels is violent.

I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح

GrandIsland  posted on  2017-02-04   11:37:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: hondo68 (#8)

Kelly Ayotte, Neil Gorsuch, and Dianne Feinstein celebrate the "New Living Constitution"

WTF? Ayotte was defeated in her NH race. Why the hell is she still parading around the Senate?

I was annoyed to notice she was still there. Won't these people ever just go the hell away?

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-02-04   12:24:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: sneakypete (#10)

You seem to have lost your mind.

You just finally noticed?

Convicted felons who have served their time/paid their debt to society and been released from prison have the same right to self-defense as any other American,and the Second Amendment applies to ALL Americans.

The Founders never envisioned career criminals with the right (and responsibility) to arm themselves.

Anything else is un-American.

Thank you, Senator McCarthy.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-02-04   12:27:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: A K A Stone, GrandIsland, hondo68, sneakypete (#12)

I believe that violent felons should lose their right to bear arms. Non violent "felons" should have all their rights.

While I do agree, the words are at war with themselves.

Either these rights are irrevocably granted by God to all human beings (within American jurisdictions) or they are not.

As soon as you predicate them as a "privilege", they are no longer a right. You may have, in various states, the right to own and use a firearm but the right to a concealed firearm is a matter of licensing in order to screen out known violent criminal elements.

Words make things so messy.     : )

I would say people lose their right to exercise their Second Amendment rights sovereignly if they demonstrate in a proper court procedure (like conviction in a jury trial) that they are themselves the very bandits and lawless elements that God granted human beings the right to defend themselves against.

So, in this sense, the Second Amendment is not a form of suicide pact. We are not required to arm the bandit or the murderer because we want citizens to be able to exercise their god-given rights to defend themselves and their property from those same bandits and murderers.

There is a kind of impossible standard of purity that some adopt toward the Second Amendment that makes it self-contradictory, for instance, by viewing violent felons as having the same exact rights to self-defense (and powerful weapons) as any other citizen. I don't agree with this view.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-02-04   12:34:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Tooconservative (#15)

The Founders never envisioned career criminals with the right (and responsibility) to arm themselves.

If you use a dictionary. Give an honest read and interpretation of the words in the constitution.

If that is done is sneaky correct?

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-02-04   12:34:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Tooconservative (#16)

I would say people lose their right to exercise their Second Amendment rights sovereignly if they demonstrate in a proper court procedure (like conviction in a jury trial) that they are themselves the very bandits and lawless elements that God granted human beings the right to defend themselves against.

Very well stated.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-02-04   12:35:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: hondo68 (#0)

"A New Mexico policeman observed Mr. Rodriguez, a convenience store clerk, carrying a concealed handgun."

If he observed it, it wasn't concealed.

misterwhite  posted on  2017-02-04   12:37:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: A K A Stone, nolu chan, sneakypete (#18)

Very well stated.

I'm no lawyer but it seems to me that when we start to postulate the Second Amendment as though it is divided against itself (against its very purpose), then we have lost our rudder in legal thought.

The Founders did not create the Second Amendment to ensure that bandits and murderers have the right to defend themselves against law enforcement. What they did intend was to arm citizens (who lacked formal police forces in the colonial era) against those bandits and murderers and to further arm the citizenry to overthrow tyrants if/when they arose to threaten the liberties of the citizens. In addition, the practice of the era was to rely on a citizen militia against any attempts by the British/French/Spanish empires to threaten any citizens of the Republic. Of these things, we can be certain.

We may argue over the Founders' precise purpose(s) in writing the Second but we can know with certainty that they were not trying to arm known criminal elements (i.e. convicted felons) with powerful weapons. To me, that is a first principle to apply in such cases in the courts. Any decision reached on the Second must recognize that fundamental fact of history.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-02-04   12:44:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: A K A Stone, sneakypete (#17)

If you use a dictionary. Give an honest read and interpretation of the words in the constitution.

If that is done is sneaky correct?

Surprisingly, no. Pete is wrong.

The Bill of Rights is written broadly as a set of strong general principles. Yet, from their earliest years, they were never interpreted as absolute laws (in the way sneaky and hondo wants us to believe).

The Second Amendment was not established to protect an absolute right to weapons (by career criminals and mental defectives or infants) any more than the First Amendment was written to protect the right to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

None of our rights, god-given that they are, are absolute or exceptionless rights. And the Founders never intended that the Bill of Rights should be read that way. However, the BoR is a serious document and the Founders were quite serious about its protections to the citizenry (who did demand the BoR before they would ratify the new Constitution and the first federal government).

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-02-04   12:51:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Tooconservative (#21)

Yet, from their earliest years, they were never interpreted as absolute laws

I'd have to strongly disagree with you on that one.

The constitution says it is the supreme law of the land.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-02-04   12:54:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Tooconservative, severely conservative, like Mittens (#14)

Ayotte was defeated in her NH race. Why the hell is she still parading around the Senate?

She's working for President Trump, New York values and all that.


Ayotte to lead White House team shepherding Supreme Court nominee

The White House has assembled a team of political veterans with deep experience navigating the Senate to help shepherd President Trump’s nominee for the Supreme Court.

Leading the effort will be former senator Kelly Ayotte, a relatively moderate Republican from New Hampshire, according to a senior White House official who detailed the assignments on the condition of anonymity.

Ayotte will serve as the nominee’s so-called sherpa, personally introducing the pick to senators and escorting him or her to meetings and the confirmation hearing. Ayotte, who narrowly lost reelection last fall, is an unlikely selection by Trump considering she spoke out against his candidacy and was seen as having been on a blacklist for appointments to the new administration.

........

The D&R Party is a suicide cult!

Hondo68  posted on  2017-02-04   13:22:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: A K A Stone (#22)

The constitution says it is the supreme law of the land.

No constitution (including our own) is a collection of statutes as you seem to imagine. That is not the purpose of a constitution.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-02-04   13:44:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: hondo68 (#23)

Ayotte will serve as the nominee’s so-called sherpa, personally introducing the pick to senators and escorting him or her to meetings and the confirmation hearing. Ayotte, who narrowly lost reelection last fall, is an unlikely selection by Trump considering she spoke out against his candidacy and was seen as having been on a blacklist for appointments to the new administration.

I would have preferred that she win that race, but having lost, I was hopeful we wouldn't have to hear any more from her.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-02-04   13:45:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Tooconservative (#24)

The constitution says it is the supreme law of the land. No constitution (including our own) is a collection of statutes as you seem to imagine. That is not the purpose of a constitution.

Actually it is. Anything contrary to the constitution has no standing. Meaning it is invalid and not truly law.

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-02-04   16:24:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: A K A Stone (#26) (Edited)

Actually it is. Anything contrary to the constitution has no standing. Meaning it is invalid and not truly law.

Obviously so. Even you are admitting that the Constitution is itself in a separate category of consideration than actual statutes that we enforce using the state's police powers.

No one, for instance, ever gets arrested for violating the Constitution. Tens of millions do get arrested for violating statutory laws. The Constitution and BoR do get regularly invoked to rein in government run amok, violating free speech or gun rights or unlawful search and seizure cases among many many others.

The BoR is not just another set of laws. Naturally, when we refer to the Constitution we are principally talking about fundamental limitations and the enumeration of powers delegated by the States to the federal government, like providing for the common defense.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-02-04   17:45:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: A K A Stone (#12)

I believe that violent felons should lose their right to bear arms. Non violent "felons" should have all their rights.

Be careful what you wish for. From some things you have written here YOU could easily be tagged as someone with "violent tendencies",and have your firearms seized.

The truth is it is a non-issue. If someone commits a violent crime,lock their asses away in a prison for a substantial amount of time with forced labor and no parole. If you get a sentence,you wear it if you don't overturn it on appeal.

I think most people would be shocked at how quickly violent crimes would drop if suddenly it became know that a 15 year sentence MEANT you served a MINIMUM of 15 years before being paroled,and that ANY misconduct,especially violent acts while a prisoner would get time added to your sentence. NONE of that "time off for good behavior" nonsense. No one should be getting favors and special consideration for just doing the minimum they are supposed to be doing,and not harming others without just cause.

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when itís the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-02-04   20:27:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: GrandIsland (#13)

Peter Puffer might agree,

Quit trying to flirt,buttercop. I'm not sexually attracted to males,and your whole leather boi macho act wouldn't appeal to me if I did.

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when itís the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-02-04   20:29:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: A K A Stone (#17)

The Founders never envisioned career criminals with the right (and responsibility) to arm themselves.

If you use a dictionary. Give an honest read and interpretation of the words in the constitution.

If that is done is sneaky correct?

Stone,it was the law of the land from the ratification of the US Constitution to the passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968.

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when itís the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-02-04   20:32:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Tooconservative (#20)

We may argue over the Founders' precise purpose(s) in writing the Second but we can know with certainty that they were not trying to arm known criminal elements (i.e. convicted felons) with powerful weapons.

Of course not,despite you use of the adjective "POWERFUL weapons" to try to poison reason.

It was never an issue because violent felons where to prison for substantial time,and prisoners have no 2nd Amendment Rights.

However,once they got out of prison they were deemed to have "paid their debt to society",and were no longer felons. They were citizens,just like you and I.

Of course,it goes without saying that the judicial system back then didn't play kissy-face with repeat violent offenders. Second time you pulled that crap you either got life in prison and them MEANT "life in prison",or you were hanged. That's the kind of thing that encourages most people to see the error of their ways.

In other words,it was a non-issue because after being caught they were either hanged or given serious time in prison,and your rights are suspended while you are serving time. You don't HAVE rights anymore until you have served your time and your full citizenship is restored.

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when itís the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-02-04   20:40:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Tooconservative (#21)

The Second Amendment was not established to protect an absolute right to weapons (by career criminals and mental defectives or infants) any more than the First Amendment was written to protect the right to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

Blah,blah,blah. BullBush stacked 12 feet high is still BullBush.

Career criminals and mental defectives WERE NOT CONSIDERED TO BE FULL CITIZENS because they were considered to be defective. They didn't have the right to vote or hold public office,either. Mostly because career criminals back then were either in prison for life or long enough to meet the hangman. Similar with mental defectives. Though they were innocent of any crime,they were locked away in asylums to protect them as well as the public.

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when itís the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-02-04   20:45:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: sneakypete (#32)

Blah,blah,blah. BullBush stacked 12 feet high is still BullBush.

How dare you blah-blah-blah me so nonchalantly, you son of a pig-dog!

At any rate, I have already stated my position. I don't see that you made any serious inroads against it in your retorts.

I don't believe your opinion represents more than a very tiny fraction of the public. And even the most literal of justices in the country like Clarence Thomas would be quite unlikely to adopt such a position.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-02-04   21:06:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: hondo68, sneakypete, redleghunter (#2)

[hondo68 #2: "The People", and "Shall not be infringed" (2nd Amendment). No loopholes there for calling ex-cons names, and then taking their God given inalienable rights. Or is the BOR "yellow journalism"?

[sneakypete #9] Remove the "STOLEN",and the Second Amendment is fine with a convicted felon being in possession of a firearm. It used to be routine for criminals leaving prison to be handed their guns back when they were released.

It was only after the un-Constitutional GCA was enacted that it became illegal for any free citizen to be in possession of a firearm.

Presumably the GCA refers to the Gun Control Act of 1968.

The earliest gun control laws concerned concealed carry.

"The People", and "Shall not be infringed" (2nd Amendment). No loopholes there for calling ex-cons names, and then taking their God given inalienable rights. Or is the BOR "yellow journalism"?

The first problem is that you are both just full of shit.

The right to keep and bear arms is neither bestowed by God nor the Constitution.

The Constitution recognizes capital punishment and you are invited to identify which fictional inalienable God-given right is not taken away by capital punishment.

The second problem is that the right to keep and bear arms is protected, but you impute some grotesque definition to the right itself.

The third problem is that there are actual laws and court opinions, none of which you cite, because they document that you are just pushing false news or bullshit.

As for convicts with guns, it is legally clear under State or Federal law, that their right is rendered forfeit.

As for the recent application, Voisine, quoted below, made clear, "Congress enacted §922(g)(9) in 1996 to bar those domestic abusers convicted of garden-variety as­sault or battery misdemeanors—just like those convicted of felonies—from owning guns."

The law expanded to cover garden variety assault or battery misdemeanors.

http://law.justia.com/codes/us/2015/title-18/part-i/chapter-44/sec.-922/

§922. Unlawful acts

[...]

(g) It shall be unlawful for any person—

(1) who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;

(2) who is a fugitive from justice;

(3) who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));

(4) who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution;

(5) who, being an alien—

(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or

(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));

(6) who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;

(7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship;

(8) who is subject to a court order that—

(A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had an opportunity to participate;

(B) restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child; and

(C)(i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or

(ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury; or

(9) who has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence,

to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

[...]

A felony is not required. Get a state license to buy pot and federal law renders your right to own a gun forfeit. Illegal aliens and those dishonorably discharged from the military need not apply.

See California upholding such a restriction in 1924. It is not some new phenomenon.

People v. Camperlingo, 69 Cal.App. 466, 473, 231 P. 601, 604 (1924)

HOUSER, J. —

Defendant was convicted of the offense of having in his possession a pistol after a previous conviction of a felony. He appeals from the judgment and from an order denying his motion for a new trial.

[1] The first point made for reversal of the judgment relates to the alleged erroneous admission by the court of certain testimony going to the identification of defendant as the person who had theretofore been convicted of a felony. But inasmuch as the fact of defendant's prior conviction of a felony was established by evidence other than that to which objection is made, the error (assuming it to be such and that it did not result in a miscarriage of justice) was harmless.

Prejudicial error is also predicated upon the fact that the prosecution did not show that defendant's admissions were not made under duress or promise of reward. Appellant cites no authority to support such specification of error. [2] However, it may be stated that the rule requiring the prosecution to show that a confession was made freely and voluntarily, without promise of immunity or of reward therefor, does not apply to mere admissions. ( People v. Ford, 25 Cal.App. 388, 418 [ 143 P. 1075].) [3] Furthermore, the record discloses the fact that at no time was any objection interposed to any of the questions asked of any of the several witnesses who testified regarding defendant's admissions; nor was any motion made by defendant to strike out such testimony. In the circumstances appellant's contention cannot be sustained.

[4] The statute under which defendant's conviction was had provides, among other things, that "no person who has been convicted of a felony against the person or property of another . . . shall own or have in his possession or under his custody or control any pistol," etc. (Stats. 1923, p. 695.) Appellant urges that in one state a felony might consist in the commission of a designated criminal act, but which identical act in another state might be either a misdemeanor or no criminal act whatsoever; and consequently that the statute is discriminatory and unconstitutional. The statute, however, must be construed in the light of existing laws. Section 17 of the Penal Code defines a felony as a crime punishable with death, or by imprisonment in the state prison, and that statute is necessarily the gauge in this state by which the guilt or the innocence of a defendant with reference to any prior conviction of a felony must be determined.

[5] It is next contended by appellant that there is no evidence to sustain the verdict that defendant was guilty "as charged in the indictment" — the specific point being that the indictment charged that the defendant had "in his possession a pistol after previous conviction of a felony"; and that defendant had been "convicted of a felony against the property of another, to wit, of the crime of burglary"; whereas, the evidence as to the defendant's admissions was that he was convicted of receiving stolen property, or "for carrying bombs in his car." The transcript of the proceedings had on the trial shows that an exemplified copy of the judgment on defendant's conviction of a felony in another state was introduced in evidence, from which it appears that the offense for which defendant was convicted was that of burglary. The allegation contained within the indictment is thus supported by the evidence, and the verdict in that particular is therefore legally unassailable.

Appellant further urges the unconstitutionality of the Statute under which defendant was prosecuted. It is contended that the statute is a bill of attainder in that in effect, because of an offense committed prior to the passage of such act, it deprives a citizen of a substantial part of his right of self-defense, and that it fixes punishment without judicial trial for a past offense. Appellant also claims that the statute is ex post facto, in that it makes punishable an act otherwise proper and lawful, to wit, the possession of firearms, because prior to the passage of the act a person had been convicted of a felony.

A bill of attainder has been defined as "a legislative act which inflicts punishment without a judicial trial"; and an ex post facto law is one which, among other things, may either aggravate a crime, make it greater than it was when committed, or which changes the punishment therefor and inflicts a greater punishment than was provided for when the crime was committed. ( Cummings v. Missouri, 4 Wall. (U.S.) 277 [18 L.Ed. 356, see, also, Rose's U.S. Notes].) [6] That by the terms of the statute in question defendant is not to be punished without a trial is readily apparent. The commission of some offense, to wit, defendant's possession of firearms, must not only be judicially established, but likewise the additional fact of his previous conviction of a felony.

Regarding the point that for a past offense, to wit, the crime of burglary, for the commission of which defendant was first convicted, the statute in question seeks to deprive defendant of a substantial part of his right of self-defense — in other words, to punish him for an offense which was committed prior to the enactment of the statute here under consideration — it may be said that legislation of a similar character has heretofore received judicial approval in the case of People v. Smith, 36 Cal.App. 88 [ 171 P. 696], where the statute under consideration provided that any person who (without a license therefor) carried a firearm concealed on his person should be guilty of a misdemeanor, or of a felony, if previously convicted of a felony. It was there held that the act was a reasonable police regulation, not objectionable as class legislation and not ex post facto because providing a heavier penalty for a person charged with an offense who previously had been convicted of a felony.

In the case entitled Ex parte Gutierrez, 45 Cal. 429, the validity of a statute which provided in substance that any person convicted a second time of the crime of petty larceny should be deemed guilty of a felony, was considered and the conclusion reached that the act was not ex post facto. The court quoted with approval from Cooley on Constitutional Limitations, as follows: "A law is not objectionable as ex post facto which, in providing for the punishment of future offenses, authorizes the defendant's conduct in the past to be taken into account, and the punishment to be graduated accordingly. Heavier penalties are often provided by law for a second or any subsequent offense than for the first, and it has not been deemed objectionable that in providing for such heavier penalties the prior conviction authorized to be taken into account may have taken place before the law was passed. In such cases it is the second or subsequent offense that is punished, not the first." See, also, People v. King, 64 Cal. 338 [30 P. 1028]; People v. Stanley, 47 Cal. 113 [17 Am. Rep. 401]; Commonwealth v. Graves, 155 Mass. 163 [16 L. R. A. 256, 29 N.E. 579]; and authorities in note to case entitled In re Miller, 34 L. R. A. 398. As is said in Moore v. Missouri, 159 U.S. 673 [40 L.Ed. 301, 16 Sup. Ct. Rep. 179, see, also, Rose's U.S. Notes]: "The increased severity of punishment for a second offense is not a punishment for the same offense a second time." In this connection, see People v. Coleman, 145 Cal. 609 [ 79 P. 283], where the defendant was convicted a second time on a charge of robbery and for which offense the statute provided an increase in punishment over persons convicted the first time of such a charge, and wherein it was held that the increased punishment was not for the prior conviction, but was solely for the aggravation of the second offense, which merited a greater punishment.

In the Matter of Application of Rameriz, 193 Cal. 633 [34 A. L. R. 51, 226 P. 914], in which the statute here involved, was under consideration, particularly as affecting the right of an alien to have a firearm in his possession, it is held that the statute is constitutional. It is there pointed out that the right to keep and bear arms is not a right guaranteed either by the federal constitution or by the state constitution, and consequently that the legislature is "entirely free to deal with the subject." The legislature of this state has dealt "with the subject" by a classification of its denizens and its citizens who shall have the right to possess firearms. Such a classification, as is ruled in People v. Smith, 36 Cal.App. 88 [ 171 P. 696], "operates uniformly upon all persons in the same category, and there is a reasonable basis for the classification."

Section 246 of the Penal Code declares that "every person undergoing a life sentence in a state prison of this state, who, with malice aforethought, commits an assault upon the person of another with a deadly weapon or instrument, or by any means or force likely to produce great bodily injury, is punishable with death." In the case of People v. Finley, 153 Cal. 59 [ 94 P. 248], it is held that such a classification is unobjectionable and that the statute is constitutional. To the same effect are People v. Quijada, 154 Cal. 243 [ 97 P. 689]; People v. Carson, 155 Cal. 164 [ 99 P. 970]; People v. Oppenheimer, 156 Cal. 733 [196 P. 74].

[7] It therefore becomes apparent that the right of a citizen to bear arms is not acquired from any constitutional provision, and while it may be said that by the operation of the statute under consideration a citizen is deprived of one of his natural rights in that his ability to better defend himself from personal violence if offered will be somewhat lessened, such right is no greater than or different in character from any other natural right possessed by him. It is clear that in the exercise of the police power of the state, that is, for the public safety or the public welfare generally, such rights may be either regulated or, in proper cases, entirely destroyed. Acting within the scope of such power, the legislature, by a proper classification of its citizens, has declared that persons heretofore convicted of a felony shall not possess firearms, and while such citizens are thus deprived of a natural right, in the judgment and discretion of the legislature such deprivation tends directly to the accomplishment of the desired end. As has been indicated by the authorities cited herein, a reasonable basis exists for the classification of citizens of the state in the manner provided by the statute, and there can be no question of the uniformity of its operation upon all persons within the designated class.

[8] The rule is unquestioned that in the absence of a clear abuse of legislative discretion, where the subject of the act relates to the exercise of the assumed powers, the courts are unauthorized to interfere with a construction unfavorable to constitutionality.

Appellant further urges that the statute is unconstitutional in that it gives to the legislatures of states other than California the power to enact new laws, or to amend existing laws, in effect defining felonies in California, and that the people of this state are powerless to invoke the referendum as to such enactments. The answer to such contention may be found in the fact, as heretofore set forth, that what constitutes a felony is defined by our laws, which would be entirely unaffected by any statute enacted by any other state with reference thereto.

[9] It is finally contended by appellant that the statute in question is unconstitutional in that it deprives a person of private property without due process of law. The rule applicable to the facts herein is clearly set forth in 5 California Jurisprudence, page 882, wherein it is said: "All property is held subject to the exercise of the police power, and provisions of the constitution declaring that property shall not be taken without due process of law have no application to cases where such power is lawfully exercised" (citing many California cases). The statement in Matter of Application of Rameriz, 193 Cal. 633 [34 A. L. R. 51, 226 P. 914], is that "private property rights of individuals are required to yield when in conflict with reasonable police regulations." Because of the conclusions heretofore indicated, that the act in question is within the police power of the state, it follows that appellant's contention that by the statute private property is taken without due process of law cannot be sustained.

No prejudicial error appearing in the record, it is ordered that the judgment and the order denying the motion for a new trial be and the same are affirmed.

- - - - - - - - - -

See Voisine v. United States, a 2016 SCOTUS case to verify that illegal carry is not some obsolete concept. Note that a felony is not required. Some misdemeanors act to destroy RKBA rights.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/15pdf/14-10154_19m1.pdf

Voisine v. United States, No. 14–10154

579 U.S. ___

Argued February 29, 2016—Decided June 27, 2016

- - - - - - - - - -

VOISINE ET AL. v. UNITED STATES

CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE FIRST CIRCUIT

No. 14–10154.

Argued February 29, 2016—Decided June 27, 2016

In an effort to “close [a] dangerous loophole” in the gun control laws, United States v. Castleman, 572 U. S. ___, ___, Congress extended thefederal prohibition on firearms possession by convicted felons to per­sons convicted of a “misdemeanor crime of domestic violence,” 18 U. S. C. §922(g)(9). Section 921(a)(33)(A) defines that phrase to in­clude a misdemeanor under federal, state, or tribal law, committed against a domestic relation that necessarily involves the “use . . . of physical force.” In Castleman, this Court held that a knowing or in­tentional assault qualifies as such a crime, but left open whether the same was true of a reckless assault.

Petitioner Stephen Voisine pleaded guilty to assaulting his girl­friend in violation of §207 of the Maine Criminal Code, which makes it a misdemeanor to “intentionally, knowingly or recklessly cause[ ] bodily injury” to another. When law enforcement officials later inves­tigated Voisine for killing a bald eagle, they learned that he owned arifle. After a background check turned up Voisine’s prior conviction under §207, the Government charged him with violating §922(g)(9). Petitioner William Armstrong pleaded guilty to assaulting his wife inviolation of a Maine domestic violence law making it a misdemeanor to commit an assault prohibited by §207 against a family or house­hold member. While searching Armstrong’s home as part of a narcot­ics investigation a few years later, law enforcement officers discov­ered six guns and a large quantity of ammunition. Armstrong was also charged under §922(g)(9). Both men argued that they were not subject to §922(g)(9)’s prohibition because their prior convictions could have been based on reckless, rather than knowing or intention­al, conduct and thus did not quality as misdemeanor crimes of do­mestic violence. The District Court rejected those claims, and each petitioner pleaded guilty. The First Circuit affirmed, holding that “an offense with a mens rea of recklessness may qualify as a ‘misde­meanor crime of violence’ under §922(g)(9).” Voisine and Armstrong filed a joint petition for certiorari, and their case was remanded forfurther consideration in light of Castleman. The First Circuit again upheld the convictions on the same ground.

Held: A reckless domestic assault qualifies as a “misdemeanor crime of domestic violence” under §922(g)(9). Pp. 4–12.

(a) That conclusion follows from the statutory text. Nothing in the phrase “use. . . of physical force” indicates that §922(g)(9) distin­guishes between domestic assaults committed knowingly or inten­tionally and those committed recklessly. Dictionaries consistently define the word “use” to mean the “act of employing” something. Ac­cordingly, the force involved in a qualifying assault must be volition­al; an involuntary motion, even a powerful one, is not naturally de­scribed as an active employment of force. See Castleman, 572 U. S., at ___. But nothing about the definition of “use” demands that the person applying force have the purpose or practical certainty that it will cause harm, as compared with the understanding that it is substantially likely to do so. Nor does Leocal v. Ashcroft, 543 U. S. 1, which held that the “use” of force excludes accidents. Reckless con­duct, which requires the conscious disregard of a known risk, is not an accident: It involves a deliberate decision to endanger another. The relevant text thus supports prohibiting petitioners, and otherswith similar criminal records, from possessing firearms. Pp. 5–8.

(b) So too does the relevant history. Congress enacted §922(g)(9) in 1996 to bar those domestic abusers convicted of garden-variety as­sault or battery misdemeanors—just like those convicted of felonies—from owning guns. Then, as now, a significant majority of jurisdic­tions—34 States plus the District of Columbia—defined such misde­meanor offenses to include the reckless infliction of bodily harm. In targeting those laws, Congress thus must have known it was sweep­ing in some persons who had engaged in reckless conduct. See, e.g., United States v. Bailey, 9 Pet. 238, 256. Indeed, that was part of the point: to apply the federal firearms restriction to those abusers, along with all others, covered by the States’ ordinary misdemeanor assault laws.

Petitioners’ reading risks rendering §922(g)(9) broadly inoperative in the 35 jurisdictions with assault laws extending to recklessness. Consider Maine’s law, which criminalizes “intentionally, knowingly or recklessly” injuring another. Assuming that statute defines a sin­gle crime, petitioners’ view that §921(a)(33)(A) requires at least a knowing mens rea would mean that no conviction obtained under that law could qualify as a “misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.”

Descamps v. United States, 570 U. S. ___, ___. In Castleman, the Court declined to construe §921(a)(33)(A) so as to render §922(g)(9) ineffective in 10 States. All the more so here, where petitioners’ view would jeopardize §922(g)(9)’s force in several times that many. Pp. 8–11.

778 F. 3d 176, affirmed. KAGAN, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which ROBERTS, C. J., and KENNEDY, GINSBURG, BREYER, and ALITO, JJ., joined. THOMAS, J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which SOTOMAYOR, J., joined as to Parts I and II.

- - - - - - - - - -

Just for completeness, one recent State case would be 2013 Louisiana case of Draughter.

http://www.lasc.org/opinions/2013/13KA0914.opn.pdf

[Full opinion at link]

Supreme Court of Louisiana

FOR IMMEDIATE NEWS RELEASE
NEWS RELEASE #070

FROM: CLERK OF SUPREME COURT OF LOUISIANA

The Opinions handed down on the 10th day of December, 2013, are as follows:

BY CLARK, J.:
2013-KA-0914

STATE OF LOUISIANA v. GLEN P. DRAUGHTER (Parish of Orleans)

After reviewing the statue under a strict scrutiny analysis, we hold La. R.S. 14:95.1, as applied to a convicted felon still under state supervision, does not unconstitutionally infringe upon the right to bear arms secured by article I, section 11 of the Louisiana Constitution.

The district court’s ruling that La.R.S. 14:95.1 is unconstitutional is reversed.

The district court's ruling granting the defendant's motion to quash the bill of information is reversed. This matter is remanded to the district court for further proceedings.

REVERSED AND REMANDED.

- - - - - - - - - -

And here is a concealed carry case from 1840:

http://www.constitution.org/2ll/bardwell/state_v_reid.txt

State v. Reid, 1 Ala. 612 (1840)

612 ALABAMA.

The State v. Reid.

* * * *

THE STATE V. REID

1. The act of the 1st of February, 1839, "To suppress the evil practice of carrying weapons secretly," does not either directly, or indirectly tend to divest the citizen of the "right to bear arms in defence of himself and the State;" and is, therefore consistent with the 23d section of the 1 Art. of the constitution.

[...]

COLLIER, C. J.--By the first section of the act, "to suppress the evil practice of carrying weapons secretly," [Acts of 1838-9] it is enacted, "that if any person shall carry concealed about his person, any species of fire arms, or any Bowie knife, Arkansas tooth pick, or any other knife of the like kind, dirk, or any other deadly weapon, the person so offending, shall on conviction thereof, before any court having competent jurisdiction, pay a fine not less than fifty nor more than five hundred dollars, to be assessed by the jury trying the case; and be imprisoned for a term not exceeding three months, at the discretion of the judge of said court."

[...]

The bill of rights was doubtless induced by the high perogative claims of the Stuarts, even after the restoration of Chas. the II., but more especially by the extraordinary assumptions of Jas. the II., by which he attempted to assail the liberties and religion of the people, and to render inefficient the enactments of Parliament, by the exercise of a dispensing power.

The bill of rights, among other things confirms the declaration of rights, to which the Prince of Orange yielded his assent in the presence of both houses of Parliament, upon ascending the throne. That instrument recited the illegal and arbitrary acts committed by the late King, and declared almost in the terms of the recital, that such acts were illegal. The evil which was intended to be remedied by the provision quoted, was a denial of the right of Protestants to have arms for their defence, and not an inhibition to wear them secretly. Such being the mischief, the remedy must be construed only to extend so far as to effect its removal.

We have taken this brief notice of the English statute, as it may serve to aid us in the construction of our constitutional provision, which secures to the citizen the right to bear arms.

[...]

The question recurs, does the act, "To suppress the evil practice of carrying weapons secretly," trench upon the constitutional rights of the citizen. We think not. The constitution in declaring that, "Every citizen has the right to bear arms in defence of himself and the State," has neither expressly nor by implication, denied to the Legislature, the right to enact laws in regard to the manner in which arms shall be borne. The right guarantied to the citizen, is not to bear arms upon all occasions and in all places, but merely "in defence of himself and the State." The terms in which this provision is phrased seems to us, necessarily to leave with the Legislature the authority to adopt such regulations of police, as may be dictated by the safety of the people and the advancement of public morals. The statute of 1 Wm. and M. while it declares the right of the subject, it refers to Parliament to determine what arms shall be borne and how; while our constitution being silent as to the action of the Legislature, does not divest it of a power over the subject, which pertained to it independent of an express grant.

[...]

- - - - - - - - - -

Notably, the Right to Keep and Bear Arms descended from the English Common Law and was not passed down by a guy with a white beard descending from a mountain with a stone tablet inscribed by God Himself.

nolu chan  posted on  2017-02-04   21:17:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: nolu chan, sneakypete, buckeroo, Deckard (#34) (Edited)

Presumably the GCA refers to the Gun Control Act of 1968.

Yes, that would be the one that Charleston Heston asked LBJ to sign.

Convicts were those guys on the chain-gang cutting weeds along the side of the road, being guarded with shotguns. They were convicts serving a jail sentence. Once they had served their time and were released, they were known as ex-cons. The term felon was virtually unheard of.


The following article first appeared in the April 13, 1998 issue of The New American magazine. www.thenewamerican.com
---------------------------------------------

Heston, for the Record by Robert W. Lee

On May 3rd of last year, actor Charlton Heston was elected to the board of directors of the National Rifle Association (NRA) during its national convention in Seattle. Two days later, the 76-member board voted to make Heston NRA first vice president over incumbent Neal Knox, a former NRA chief lobbyist who heads the Maryland-based Firearms Coalition. The Associated Press reported at the time, "Heston’s election ran against a long tradition of two, one-year terms for each of the top three officers, with the second vice president moving up to first vice president, and then to president." One Heston backer on the board told AP: "Certainly this is an appropriate time that we not adhere to that tradition. I think the Lord’s given us a prophet and we ought not to turn our backs on what the Lord has given." Heston is best known for his role as Moses in the 1956 Hollywood classic The Ten Commandments.

As first vice president, Heston is currently on track to become NRA president in June. However, recent revelations about Heston’s role in promoting President Lyndon Johnson’s 1968 gun control legislation, and his involvement in an anti-gun group formed at the time by fellow actor Tom Laughlin, have become potentially serious speed bumps on the popular Hollywood figure’s road to higher NRA office.

Help From Hollywood

The controversy erupted after the Lyndon B. Johnson Presidential Library released documents confirming that Heston and a handful of colleagues worked closely with White House insiders to persuade the American public and Congress to support a bill to prohibit the interstate shipment of rifles, shotguns, and handgun ammunition, and to restrict out-of-state purchases of rifles and shotguns.

President Johnson had already signed into law the 1968 omnibus crime control bill, which included sundry curbs on handguns. One provision banned the interstate mail-order sale of handguns, but the President did not think that ban went far enough, and so he proposed new gun legislation targeting shotguns and rifles.

On June 10, 1968, the House Judiciary Committee scuttled the proposal. The next day, the President issued a brief statement expressing his "bitter disappointment" and declaring that "there is no excuse whatsoever for failure to act to prohibit the interstate mail-order sale of rifles." He urged the Judiciary Committee to "promptly reconsider this shocking blow to the safety of every citizen in this country."

On June 12th, Lawrence Levinson, deputy special counsel to the President, sent a memo to Heston at his home in Beverly Hills. Claiming that the interstate mail-order ban in the crime bill "is only a half-way measure" since it "covers only handguns — but fails to include shotguns and rifles," Levinson briefly outlined the President’s proposal to also place rifles under the gun control tent. That same day, Levinson explained in a memo to White House staffer Charles Maguire:

At the President’s suggestion, Jack Valenti [president of the Motion Picture Association of America and former special assistant to LBJ] has agreed to hold a luncheon in Los Angeles next Monday, June 17th, at noon (PDT), at which a number of famous movie actors — particularly those who play cowboys — will speak out in favor of the President’s gun control legislation.

For this luncheon, we need two pithy, one-page statements which will be read by two of the "cowboys" (probably Charlton Heston and John Wayne), supporting the President’s Gun Control Bill.

May I suggest that Hardesty do one and Harry Middleton do the other, with you to supply some polish.

There is no further reference to the luncheon in documents released to date. But on June 18th, Levinson sent a memo to the President outlining a far more important project:

Through Jack Valenti’s good work, five movie actors will appear on the Joey Bishop show at 11:30 tonight on Channel 7 to support strongly your gun control proposal. The actors involved are Gregory Peck, Charlton Heston, Hugh O’Brian, James Stewart, and Kirk Douglas.

They will read a very tough statement which we prepared here applauding your action in calling for strict gun control curbs.

A Telling Statement

Also on June 18th, Dick McKay of the Beverly Hills public relations firm Rogers, Cowan & Brenner, wrote to presidential assistant Joseph Califano about the project’s progress:

Enclosed are three copies of the final version of the statement released to the Associated Press and United Press International here in Los Angeles today. Hugh O’Brian asked me to send these to you.

Hugh and I met at his home last evening and I wrote a lead-in which I considered newsworthy but he felt that it was too professional and, depending upon what results are eventually achieved, he may have been right. Instead, the lead-in was something as simple and direct as "We, Kirk Douglas, James Stewart, Hugh O’Brian, Gregory Peck, Charlton Heston, wish to make the following statement...."

Charlton, Gregory, and Hugh personally planted this statement with the bureau chiefs at AP and UPI. They were greeted warmly and Hugh reports that, based on the reception and ensuing conversation, the results should be excellent. The AP also photographed the trio.

McKay then described the steps intended to deceive the public about behind-the-scenes orchestration of the enterprise: "These three stars felt that it might be detrimental for their purposes to have a press agent along with them so I merely set up all the details, which they followed through on their own. I think that their reasoning may be correct that their whole plan may get better treatment if there is, apparently, not a public relations man involved. Naturally, from a professional point of view there are very few instances where I would agree with such thinking."

On June 20, 1968, Califano wrote in a memo to President Johnson:

I thought you might be interested in the attached statement which Hugh O’Brian read on the Joey Bishop Show last Tuesday. This was a statement subscribed to by Kirk Douglas, James Stewart, Gregory Peck and Charlton Heston and has been widely circulated throughout the country.

The statement "subscribed to" by Charlton Heston and his associates included the following:

• "Our gun control laws are so lax that anyone can buy a weapon."

• "We share the conviction that stronger gun control legislation is mandatory in this tragic situation."

• "The Congress has recently given us some protection against pistols in the wrong hands. But that’s not enough … not nearly enough. The carnage will not stop until there is effective control over the sale of rifles and shotguns."

• "For many long months, the President of the United States has asked the Congress to pass a such a law … but the Congress will not listen unless you, the voter, speak out.... Unless the people of this country rise up and demand that the Congress give us a strong and effective gun control law."

After summarizing the President’s proposed legislation, and citing the House and Senate bill numbers, the statement declared: "We urge you, as a responsible, sensible, and concerned citizen, to write or wire your senator and congressman immediately and demand they support these bills."

Gun Control Diehard

The effort had the intended impact. On July 14th the House approved the measure by a vote of 305 to 118. On September 18th, the Senate followed suit by a tally of 70 to 17. As described by the 1969 World Book Encyclopedia Yearbook, "On October 22 [1968], the first major gun control law in 30 years was enacted. It was the strongest gun control legislation in the nation’s history." As finally approved, the legislation:

• Outlawed the mail-order sales of all rifles, shotguns, and ammunition, except between licensed dealers, manufacturers, and gun collectors.

• Banned the sale of rifles, shotguns, and handguns to persons under 21 years of age.

• Banned direct sales of guns to out-of-state residents unless the state involved specifically authorized its citizens to buy guns in adjoining states.

In a related development that year, actor Tom Laughlin (best known for his later roles in "Billy Jack" movies) formed an anti-gun movement called "Ten Thousand Americans for Reasonable Gun Control." Initially, it attracted the support of many movie and television personalities, but most subsequently deserted the group. The NRA’s American Rifleman magazine for October 1968 quoted Laughlin as stating: "They were all hepped up for 2 weeks. The commitment couldn’t last any longer than that. It’s frightening to me."

But not everyone jumped ship. As reported by the American Rifleman, "Laughlin cited as diehards who stuck with his anti-gun movement a ‘little more than a handful’" — including Charlton Heston.

Going Mainstream

Heston has expressed a desire to move the NRA into the political "mainstream." He has downplayed the significance of the Brady waiting-period law, claiming not only that it is "cosmetic" and "meaningless," but that "I don’t care if they keep the Brady Act forever." During a May 9, 1997 interview on San Francisco radio station KGO, Heston, who had just been elected NRA first vice president the previous day, was asked if he would try to get "the right-wing folks off the [NRA] board and out of the picture." He replied, "That’s certainly the intention, and I think it’s highly doable."

On March 6th of this year, the NRA issued a press release defending Heston and labeling as "a few minor dissidents" those who have expressed concern about his support of LBJ’s gun control agenda and involvement in the Laughlin group. Such critics, the NRA claimed, "have attempted to smear and impugn" his integrity. The bulk of the release consisted of 11 commendable gun-related quotations excerpted from Heston speeches and media appearances during 1997. However, the Johnson Library documents were not mentioned, and the vexing questions they raise went unanswered. The release concluded: "In response to those self-serving dissidents who have criticized him, Mr. Heston said simply, ‘I stand by my record.’ We, too, stand on that record along with nearly three million NRA members committed to preserving our Second Amendment freedoms."

Dismissing as "self-serving dissidents" those who are justifiably concerned about the reliability of Heston’s pro-gun commitment, while ignoring the important questions raised by the crucial role he played in the passage of anti-gun legislation which the NRA vigorously opposed, is likely to fuel rather than dissipate the controversy. Gun advocates, including more than just "a few minor dissidents" within the NRA itself, are anxious to know the extent to which Heston’s position today differs, deep down and not just rhetorically, from that which he espoused earlier. Beyond that, there is the question of whether or not a "mainstream" NRA purged of its "right-wing" element can effectively keep gun-control zealots at bay.

© Copyright 1994-2000 American Opinion Publishing Incorporated

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28430

The D&R Party is a suicide cult!

Hondo68  posted on  2017-02-04   22:06:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: nolu chan (#34)

The right to keep and bear arms is neither bestowed by God nor the Constitution.

For once,you are right. It's just recognized as existing as a part of the natural state of man.

The Constitution recognizes capital punishment and you are invited to identify which fictional inalienable God-given right is not taken away by capital punishment.

WTH does capital punishment have to do with the Right to Keep and Bear Arms?

As for the rest of your massive brain fart,copying and pasting 10,000 worlds of bloviating bullshit neither makes you right nor intelligent. It just proves you are anal and unable to make your case using logic and a few words,so you turn to boring everyone to death with 10 thousand words that may or may not have anything to do with the subject but nobody knows because our eyes get glassy and we nod off at the second paragraph.

Or is it you keep positing court findings because you are incapable of making the distinction between what lawyers and judges "find",which can sometimes mean that Sunday is Tuesday,and reality?

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when itís the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-02-05   0:21:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: sneakypete (#29)

But, you are the faggot family patriarch. You stated that 40% of America is faggots because that's the percentage that exsists in your family.

I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح

GrandIsland  posted on  2017-02-05   0:22:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: hondo68, sneakypete (#35)

[sneakypete #9] It was only after the un-Constitutional GCA was enacted that it became illegal for any free citizen to be in possession of a firearm.

[nolu chan #34] Presumably the GCA refers to the Gun Control Act of 1968.

[sneakypete #35] Yes, that would be the one that Charleston Heston asked LBJ to sign. yada, yada, yada.

Logical conclusion: it was not until 1968 that it became illegal for any free citizen to be in possession of a firearm. In reality, it became illegal for many free citizens to be in possession of a handgun before Charlton Heston was born.

PROBLEMS:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sullivan_Act

The Sullivan Act is a gun control law in New York State that took effect in 1911. Upon first passage, the Sullivan Act required licenses for New Yorkers to possess firearms small enough to be concealed. Possession of such firearms without a license was a misdemeanor, and carrying them was a felony.

[...]

In addition to handguns, the Sullivan Act prohibits the possession or carrying of weapons such as brass knuckles, sandbags, blackjacks, bludgeons or bombs, as well as possessing or carrying a dagger, "dangerous knife" or razor "with intent to use the same unlawfully". Violation of any of the prohibitions is a felony.

[...]

In New York State, apart from New York City, the practices for the issuance of concealed carry licenses vary from county to county. In New York City, the licensing authority is the police department, which rarely issues carry licenses to anyone except retired police officers, or those who can describe why the nature of their employment (for example, a diamond merchant who regularly carries gemstones; a district attorney who regularly prosecutes dangerous criminals, etc.) requires carrying a concealed handgun. Critics of the law have alleged that New Yorkers with political influence, wealth, or celebrity appear to be issued licenses more liberally. In recent years, the New York Post, the New York Sun, and other newspapers have periodically obtained the list of licensees through Freedom of Information Act requests and have published the names of individuals they consider to be wealthy, famous, or politically connected that have been issued carry licenses by the city police department.

Concealed weapons have a long history of being excluded, even by state constitution.

In State v. Speller, 86 N.C. 697 (1882)

The exception taken to the charge of the court, as we are told at the bar, is based upon the supposed unconstitutionality of the statute under which the defendant is prosecuted, and the lack of lawful power in the legislature to deprive a citizen at any time of his right to bear arms, and especially when needed to repel a threatened assault from which great bodily harm might reasonably be apprehended

We concede the full force of the ingenious argument made by counsel upon this point, but cannot admit its application to the statute in question. The distinction between the "right to keep and bear arms," and "the practice of carrying concealed weapons" is plainly observed in the constitution of this state. The first, it is declared, shall not be infringed, while the latter may be prohibited. Art. I, sec. 24.

As to the surest inhibition that could be put upon this practice deemed so hurtful as to be the subject of express mention in the organic law of the state, the legislature has seen fit to enact that at no time, and under no circumstances, except when upon his own premises, shall any person carry a deadly weapon concealed about his person, and it is the strict duty of the courts, whenever an occasion offers, to uphold a law thus sanctioned and approved. But without any constitutional provision whatever on the subject, can it be doubted that the legislature might by law regulate this right to bear arms--as they do all other rights whether inherent or otherwise--and require it to be exercised in a manner conducive to the peace and safety of the public? This is as far as this statute assumes to go. It does not say that a citizen when beset with danger shall not provide for his security by wearing such arms as may be essential to that end; but simply that if he does do so, he must wear them openly, and so as to be seen by those with whom he may come in contact. The right to wear secret weapons is no more essential to the protection of one man than another, and surely it cannot be supposed that the law intends that an unwary advantage should be taken even of an enemy. Hence it takes no note whether the secret carrying be done in a spirit of foolish recklessness, or from a sense of apprehended danger, but in either case declares it to be unlawful. Indeed, were there any difference made, we might expect it to be (p.701) against one who felt himself to be under some pressure of necessity, since in his case the mischievous consequences intended to be avoided, might the more reasonably be anticipated. And it would be a strange passage in the history of legislation to enact that it shall be unlawful for any person to carry concealed weapons about his person, except when it may be supposed he shall have occasion to use them. This disposes of the defendant's last exception.

If the fact that he had been previously assaulted could furnish no justification, or in any way affect the issue to be tried by the jury, it was certainly proper to exclude the evidence with regard to it.

No error. Affirmed.

nolu chan  posted on  2017-02-05   0:56:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: GrandIsland (#37)

But, you are the faggot family patriarch. You stated that 40% of America is faggots because that's the percentage that exsists in your family.

Two lies in a row,and the saddest part is you are too stupid to even understand you are lying.

Prove me wrong,bubba! Lead us all to a post where I wrote anything even remotely similar to your delusional claim.

What is behind this? Is it your desire to "normalize" homosexuality by making other people seem queer who aren't,so that YOU seem like less of a freak because YOU are queer and in the closet?

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when itís the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-02-05   8:47:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: sneakypete (#36)

Or is it you keep positing court findings because you are incapable of making the distinction between what lawyers and judges "find",

Or maybe he is posting what we actually live under. Not the way we wish it should be or even the way it should be.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-02-05   9:38:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: GrandIsland (#37)

But, you are the faggot family patriarch.

That is off topic on this thread. You don't need to call him a fag on every thread. Save it for when that is the actual topic of discussion. Thanks.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-02-05   9:39:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: nolu chan, sneakypete (#38)

[sneakypete #9] It was only after the un-Constitutional GCA was enacted that it became illegal for any free citizen to be in possession of a firearm.

The Sullivan Act is a gun control law in New York State that took effect in 1911. Upon first passage, the Sullivan Act required licenses for New Yorkers to possess firearms small enough to be concealed. Possession of such firearms without a license was a misdemeanor, and carrying them was a felony.

Pete it looks like Mr. Chan was correct.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-02-05   9:42:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: nolu chan, sneakypete (#38)

[sneakypete #35] Yes, that would be the one that Charleston Heston asked LBJ to sign.

Wrong again!

I wrote those words in #35.

The D&R Party is a suicide cult!

Hondo68  posted on  2017-02-05   11:06:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: A K A Stone (#41)

Save it for when that is the actual topic of discussion. Thanks.

Will do.

My apologies

I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح

GrandIsland  posted on  2017-02-05   12:28:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: GrandIsland is on the LF Watchlist for Homosexuality (#44)

My apologies

buckeroo  posted on  2017-02-05   12:31:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: buckeroo (#45)

GrandIsland is on the LF Watchlist for Homosexuality

Sorry, I can't watch. Life is too short.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-02-05   15:05:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: A K A Stone (#40)

Or maybe he is posting what we actually live under. Not the way we wish it should be or even the way it should be.

Nah,he is either an actual lawyer,or a wannabe lawyer. He is ready at the drop of a hat to argue either side of any argument. He just likes to post dozens of pages of copy and paste to confuse any issue to try to make people think he is smart.

If he were a tenth as smart as he thinks he is,he would realize two things about the post under discussion. The first is that The Sullivan Law ONLY applied to NYC,and only lasted because no law firm wanted to take the city to court and win because of the consequeces,and secondly,NYC isn't really a part of America in any more than the technical sense.

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when itís the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-02-05   17:53:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: A K A Stone (#42) (Edited)

[sneakypete #9] It was only after the un-Constitutional GCA was enacted that it became illegal for any free citizen to be in possession of a firearm.

The Sullivan Act is a gun control law in New York State that took effect in 1911. Upon first passage, the Sullivan Act required licenses for New Yorkers to possess firearms small enough to be concealed. Possession of such firearms without a license was a misdemeanor, and carrying them was a felony.

Pete it looks like Mr. Chan was correct.

Not really. I'm not going to make a hobby out of this because it is a lot more work to create new content than to copy and paste crap from law reviews,but here goes.

1:The Sullivan Act ONLY applied to NYC,and was only a "law" because it was never challenged in a court.

2:GCA-68 created a whole blizzard of new paperwork requirements,included ammunition and accessory sales and records in some cases,was federal instead of state of city,including mail order restrictions,and most likely a bunch of other differences.

Comparing a city or state gun regulation to a federal regulation/law is like comparing a mosquito bite to a crocodile bite.

State laws versus feral laws is a messy argument that lawyers LOVE because there is no end to the billing hours,but the quick summation on this is "States don't enact laws that apply to other states or the federal government,but the federal government,using the US Constitution as a spring board DOES enact laws that apply to all the states.

However,states DO have a right to pass and enforce any laws they wish,and can only be forced to change those laws if the laws can be challenged on a Constitutional basis.

It really is a very murky swamp to wade into,though. What is legal one day might be found to be illegal the next,due solely to interpretation.

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when itís the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-02-05   18:02:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: hondo68 (#43)

Wrong again!

I wrote those words in #35.

SO what? Does that mean you own them and no one else can use them?

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when itís the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-02-05   18:07:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: sneakypete, yall (#48)

sneakypete #9] It was only after the un-Constitutional GCA was enacted that it became illegal for any free citizen to be in possession of a firearm.

The Sullivan Act is a gun control law in New York State that took effect in 1911. Upon first passage, the Sullivan Act required licenses for New Yorkers to possess firearms small enough to be concealed. Possession of such firearms without a license was a misdemeanor, and carrying them was a felony. - N.chant

Pete it looks like Mr. Chan was correct.

Not really. I'm not going to make a hobby out of this because it is a lot more work to create new content than to copy and paste crap from law reviews,but here goes. --- State laws versus feral laws is a messy argument that lawyers LOVE because there is no end to the billing hours,but the quick summation on this is "States don't enact laws that apply to other states or the federal government,but the federal government,using the US Constitution as a spring board DOES enact laws that apply to all the states. ----- However,states DO have a right to pass and enforce any laws they wish,and can only be forced to change those laws if the laws can be challenged on a Constitutional basis.

No way do states have the 'right' to pass laws that infringe on our inalienable rights to life, liberty, or property,- like guns.

It really is a very murky swamp to wade into,though. What is legal one day might be found to be illegal the next,due solely to interpretation.I

Pete, by using that argument, you're playing into nolu chumps hand. --- The 14th is quite specific, --- as is the rest of the Constitution, -- state officals of every stripe are constitutionally obligated to honor and obey EVERY aspect of the document.

tpaine  posted on  2017-02-05   19:09:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: tpaine (#50)

No way do states have the 'right' to pass laws that infringe on our inalienable rights to life, liberty, or property,- like guns.

Which is why I wrote "it was only a "law" because it was never challenged in court."

Pete, by using that argument, you're playing into nolu chumps hand. --- The 14th is quite specific, --- as is the rest of the Constitution, -- state officals of every stripe are constitutionally obligated to honor and obey EVERY aspect of the document.

So what? It means nothing if the citizenry are content to let them get away with it. In many (most?) cases the citizens are so ignorant about their Constitutional Rights that they don't even know they are being screwed,so they see no reason to complain. Others that do know and let that stuff pass anyhow because they like seeing that particular sacred cow gored are people too stupid to realize that one day it will be THEIR sacred cow getting gored,and THEY created the precedent that made it possible.

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when itís the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-02-05   21:01:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: A K A Stone, sneakypete (#42)

The most obvious mass legal prohibition of gun ownership to citizens came forth in the infamous Black Laws that followed the 14th Amendment declaration of Black citizenship.

The Civil War and the passage of the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments were supposed to give African-American’s the same rights as all other US citizens. Just as the South found ways to keep black people from voting, it also found ways to ensure that they remained unarmed and vulnerable to coercion by violence. The adoption of “Black Codes” by Southern legislatures directly contradicted the spirit and letter of these newly enacted amendments, but were enforced anyway. Although Black Codes applied to many different aspects of life, one of its major aims was to keep blacks from possessing firearms. For example, Mississippi’s Black Code states: “Be it enacted . . . that no freedman, free Negro or mulatto, not in the military . . . and not licensed so to do by the board of police of his or her county, shall keep or carry firearms of any kind, or any ammunition.”

Babat, David, "The Discriminatory History of Gun Control" (2009). Senior Honors Projects. Paper 140, at page 5.
http://digitalcommons.uri.edu/srhonorsprog/140

nolu chan  posted on  2017-02-06   0:03:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: tpaine (#50)

No way do states have the 'right' to pass laws that infringe on our inalienable rights to life, liberty, or property,- like guns.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger

Just what do you think is a capital crime? One committed in Washington, D.C.?

The laws of nature. "We don't enforce them laws."

nolu chan  posted on  2017-02-06   0:10:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: sneakypete (#36)

For once,you are right. It's just recognized as existing as a part of the natural state of man.

Of course, carrying a gun is the natural state of man since the Garden of Eden.

The laws of nature. "We don't enforce them laws."

WTH does capital punishment have to do with the Right to Keep and Bear Arms?

It has to do with the insufferable claim that RKBA is an inalienable right given by God Almighty hisself. The Constitution recognizes capital punishment which takes away all rights, including the mythical inalienable rights.

nolu chan  posted on  2017-02-06   0:11:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: sneakypete, yall (#54) (Edited)

Pete, by using that argument, you're playing into nolu chumps hand. --- The 14th is quite specific, --- as is the rest of the Constitution, -- state officals of every stripe are constitutionally obligated to honor and obey EVERY aspect of the document.

So what? It means nothing if the citizenry are content to let them get away with it.

Well, as we see the N chump has replied by claiming our rights are insufferable, that our RKBA's are alienable, and that The Constitution recognizes capital punishment which takes away all rights, including the 'mythical inalienable rights'.

So by making a fool of himself , some good has come of this thread.

tpaine  posted on  2017-02-06   3:05:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: nolu chan (#52) (Edited)

The most obvious mass legal prohibition of gun ownership to citizens came forth in the infamous Black Laws that followed the 14th Amendment declaration of Black citizenship.

Thanks,that's one I had never heard of before.

The Civil War and the passage of the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments were supposed to give African-American’s the same rights as all other US citizens. Just as the South found ways to keep black people from voting, it also found ways to ensure that they remained unarmed and vulnerable to coercion by violence. The adoption of “Black Codes” by Southern legislatures directly contradicted the spirit and letter of these newly enacted amendments, but were enforced anyway. Although Black Codes applied to many different aspects of life, one of its major aims was to keep blacks from possessing firearms. For example, Mississippi’s Black Code states: “Be it enacted . . . that no freedman, free Negro or mulatto, not in the military . . . and not licensed so to do by the board of police of his or her county, shall keep or carry firearms of any kind, or any ammunition.”

And it was obviously un-Constitutional.

Not sure of the exact term I am looking for,but something that is clearly un-Constitutional on the face of it may be some sort of local ordinance,but it can NOT be an actual law BECAUSE it IS un-Constitutional.

Sadly,WAAAAAY too much of this crap doesn't get flushed as quickly as it should because most people are ignorant of their own rights,and care even less about the rights of others. In most cases where someone that will and does stand up to un-Constitutional arrest charges almost always has the local courts dismiss the charges because the judges know the charges are un-Constitutional and fear an appeal to higher courts that will get that "handy little tool to keep the peons in line" stripped away from them and leave THEM potentially facing charges if they try to use it again. I know of instances where this has happened,and I am almost certain you have,also.

Like every other crime,knowingly prosecuting a citizen using a un-Constitutional law is not a crime until it comes to the official attention of a higher court. That's why local courts drop charges designed purely to keep the locals slapped into "their proper place" if any of the locals stand up on their hind legs and protest it.

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when itís the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-02-06   4:45:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: nolu chan (#54)

For once,you are right. It's just recognized as existing as a part of the natural state of man.

Of course, carrying a gun is the natural state of man since the Garden of Eden.

The joke is on you because your lame attempt at being snotty is actually true. Back in that mythical time,clubs,stones,or edged weapons were the "guns" of the day because all guns are is a subset of the word "weapon".

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when itís the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-02-06   4:47:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: tpaine (#55)

Well, as we see the N chump has replied by claiming our rights are insufferable,

That is what insufferable boors do. It's the nature of the beast. His mommy at one point started telling him what a "SPECIAL" little boy he is,SO much smarter than all the other little boys,and now he feels compelled to prove it by posting pages of legalese and semi-legalese contentions he copies and pastes from the internet. I doubt he even believes most of the crap he posts himself. He just likes to argue,and he LOVES "winning" the arguments,so he uses that crap as props to confuse and silence people,thereby "winning". Boil it all down to the basics,and the truth is a turd is still a turd,even if it's dressed up in court findings.

He is a lawyer or dreams of becoming a lawyer,so he spends every minute of every waking hour trying to figure out how to turn lies into truths,and to confuse issues and obstruct truths he doesn't like. It's who he is and what he does.

Picture a human mosquito buzzing around your ears,and there he is.

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when itís the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-02-06   4:57:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: tpaine (#55)

Well, as we see the N chump has replied by claiming our rights are insufferable, that our RKBA's are alienable, and that The Constitution recognizes capital punishment which takes away all rights, including the 'mythical inalienable rights'.

Give him a chance,and he will argue that water is dry and dust is wet,and produce 10,000 pages of brain farts written in ancient Greek to "prove" his point.

So by making a fool of himself

It's not fair to blame him for what Mother Nature did,even if he is obsessed with outdoing her by "improving" on her work.

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when itís the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-02-06   5:00:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: sneakypete, yall (#59)

Well, as we see the N chump has replied by claiming our rights are insufferable, that our RKBA's are alienable, and that The Constitution recognizes capital punishment which takes away all rights, including the 'mythical inalienable rights'.

It's not fair to blame him for what Mother Nature did,even if he is obsessed with outdoing her by "improving" on her work.

I think you're being too fair. -- I'd bet he has an anti-constitutional agenda, and is probably a closet progressive.

tpaine  posted on  2017-02-06   8:45:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: sneakypete (#58)

His mommy at one point started telling him what a "SPECIAL" little boy he is,SO much smarter than all the other little boys,and now he feels compelled to prove it

Chan is probably around 70 years old. I'm guessing.

Parents didn't do that to their children back in those days.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-02-06   10:08:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: A K A Stone (#61)

His mommy at one point started telling him what a "SPECIAL" little boy he is,SO much smarter than all the other little boys,and now he feels compelled to prove it

Chan is probably around 70 years old. I'm guessing.

Parents didn't do that to their children back in those days.

Sure they did. Some did,anyhow.

How else can you explain people like Jim-mah Cawtur,assorted Kennedy's,the Bushes,Bubba Bill,etc,etc,etc?

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when itís the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-02-06   19:41:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: sneakypete, A K A Stone (#47)

If he were a tenth as smart as he thinks he is,he would realize two things about the post under discussion. The first is that The Sullivan Law ONLY applied to NYC,and only lasted because no law firm wanted to take the city to court and win because of the consequeces,and secondly,NYC isn't really a part of America in any more than the technical sense.

No, you crazy dingbat, the Sullivan Act is a NEW YORK STATE LAW.

It is an Act that was passed by both chambers of the STATE legislature and signed into law by the governor. If you had any functioning brain cells at all, you wouldd know that cities do not pass such Act and enact them into law.

Timothy Sullivan was a New York STATE senator representing the State's twelfth district.

http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/penal-law/pen-sect-400-00.html

New York Penal Law § 400.00 Licenses to carry, possess, repair and dispose of firearms

nolu chan  posted on  2017-02-08   17:09:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: sneakypete, A K A Stone (#48)

Not really. I'm not going to make a hobby out of this because it is a lot more work to create new content than to copy and paste crap from law reviews,but here goes.

1:The Sullivan Act ONLY applied to NYC,and was only a "law" because it was never challenged in a court.

I won't make a habit of this either. I will only call your bullshit as long as you keep repeating your bullshit.

The Sullivan Act IS a law, a New York STATE LAW. It is codified under N.Y.P.L. § 400.00.

If he were a tenth as smart as he thinks he is,he would realize two things about the post under discussion. The first is that The Sullivan Law ONLY applied to NYC,and only lasted because no law firm wanted to take the city to court and win because of the consequeces,and secondly,NYC isn't really a part of America in any more than the technical sense.

No, you crazy dingbat, the Sullivan Act is a NEW YORK STATE LAW.

It is an Act that was passed by both chambers of the STATE legislature and signed into law by the governor. If you had any functioning brain cells at all, you wouldd know that cities do not pass such Act and enact them into law.

Timothy Sullivan was a New York STATE senator representing the State's twelfth district.

http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/penal-law/pen-sect-400-00.html

New York Penal Law § 400.00 Licenses to carry, possess, repair and dispose of firearms

nolu chan  posted on  2017-02-08   17:16:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: nolu chan (#64)

Then why did we only hear about people in NYC being prosecuted for violating it?

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when itís the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-02-08   17:19:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: sneakypete (#36)

The right to keep and bear arms is neither bestowed by God nor the Constitution.

For once,you are right. It's just recognized as existing as a part of the natural state of man.

You dingbat.

NATURAL LAW nonsense

Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Ed.

Natural law. This expression, "natural law,” or jus naturale, was largely used in the philosophical specula­tions of the Roman jurists of the Antonine age, and was intended to denote a system of rules and principles for the guidance of human conduct which, independently of enacted law or of the systems peculiar to any one people, might be discovered by the rational intelligence of man, and would be found to grow out of and conform to his nature, meaning by that word his whole mental, moral, and physical constitution. The point of departure for this conception was the Stoic doctrine of a life ordered "according to nature,” which in its turn rested upon the purely supposititious existence, in primitive times, of a "state of nature;” that is, a condition of society in which men universally were governed solely by a rational and consistent obedience to the needs, impulses, and prompt­ings of their true nature, such nature being as yet undefaced by dishonesty, falsehood, or indulgence of the baser passions. In ethics, it consists in practical univer­sal judgments which man himself elicits. These express necessary and obligatory rules of human conduct which have been established by the author of human nature as essential to the divine purposes in the universe and have been promulgated by God solely through human reason.

Constitutional Law, 6th Ed., Jerome A. Barron and C. Thomas Dienes, Black Letter Series, West Group, 2003, p. 165.

A. THE ORIGINAL CONSTITUTION

1. NATURAL RIGHTS

Despite some contrary judicial opinion in the early years of the Republic, the claim that there are extra-constitutional "natural rights" limiting governmental power has generally not been accepted by the courts. If the federal government exercises one of its delegated powers or the states exercise their reserved powers, some express or implied constitutional, statutory, or common law limitation must be found if the government action is to be successfully challenged.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_justice

Wikipedia

Natural justice

In English law, natural justice is technical terminology for the rule against bias (nemo iudex in causa sua) and the right to a fair hearing (audi alteram partem). While the term natural justice is often retained as a general concept, it has largely been replaced and extended by the general "duty to act fairly".

The basis for the rule against bias is the need to maintain public confidence in the legal system. Bias can take the form of actual bias, imputed bias or apparent bias. Actual bias is very difficult to prove in practice while imputed bias, once shown, will result in a decision being void without the need for any investigation into the likelihood or suspicion of bias. Cases from different jurisdictions currently apply two tests for apparent bias: the "reasonable suspicion of bias" test and the "real likelihood of bias" test. One view that has been taken is that the differences between these two tests are largely semantic and that they operate similarly.

The right to a fair hearing requires that individuals should not be penalized by decisions affecting their rights or legitimate expectations unless they have been given prior notice of the case, a fair opportunity to answer it, and the opportunity to present their own case. The mere fact that a decision affects rights or interests is sufficient to subject the decision to the procedures required by natural justice. In Europe, the right to a fair hearing is guaranteed by Article 6(1) of the European Convention on Human Rights, which is said to complement the common law rather than replace it.

Background

Natural justice is a term of art that denotes specific procedural rights in the English legal system and the systems of other nations based on it. It is similar to the American concepts of fair procedure and procedural due process, the latter having roots that to some degree parallel the origins of natural justice.

Although natural justice has an impressive ancestry and is said to express the close relationship between the common law and moral principles, the use of the term today is not to be confused with the "natural law" of the Canonists, the mediaeval philosophers' visions of an "ideal pattern of society" or the "natural rights" philosophy of the 18th century. Whilst the term natural justice is often retained as a general concept, in jurisdictions such as Australia and the United Kingdom it has largely been replaced and extended by the more general "duty to act fairly". Natural justice is identified with the two constituents of a fair hearing, which are the rule against bias (nemo iudex in causa sua, or "no man a judge in his own cause"), and the right to a fair hearing (audi alteram partem, or "hear the other side").

The requirements of natural justice or a duty to act fairly depend on the context. In Baker v. Canada (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration) (1999), the Supreme Court of Canada set out a list of non-exhaustive factors that would influence the content of the duty of fairness, including the nature of the decision being made and the process followed in making it, the statutory scheme under which the decision-maker operates, the importance of the decision to the person challenging it, the person's legitimate expectations, and the choice of procedure made by the decision-maker. Earlier, in Knight v. Indian Head School Division No. 19 (1990), the Supreme Court held that public authorities which make decisions of a legislative and general nature do not have a duty to act fairly, while those that carry out acts of a more administrative and specific nature do. Furthermore, preliminary decisions will generally not trigger the duty to act fairly, but decisions of a more final nature may have such an effect. In addition, whether a duty to act fairly applies depends on the relationship between the public authority and the individual. No duty exists where the relationship is one of master and servant, or where the individual holds office at the pleasure of the authority. On the other hand, a duty to act fairly exists where the individual cannot be removed from office except for cause. Finally, a right to procedural fairness only exists when an authority's decision is significant and has an important impact on the individual.

Justice Iredell, Calder v. Bull,, U.S.S.C, 3 Dall. 385, 398-99 (1798)

If, then, a government, composed of legislative, executive and judicial departments, were established, by a constitution which imposed no limits on the legislative power, the consequence would inevitably be, that whatever the legislative power chose to enact, would be lawfully enacted, and the judicial power could never interpose to pronounce it void. It is true, that some speculative jurists have held, that a legislative act against natural justice must, in itself, be void; but I cannot think that, under such a government any court of justice would possess a power to declare it so. Sir William Blackstone, having put the strong case of an act of parliament, which

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[399]

authorize a man to try his own cause, explicitly adds, that even in that case, “there is no court that has power to defeat the intent of the legislature, when couched in such evident and express words, as leave no doubt whether it was the intent of the legislature, or no.” 1 Bl. Com. 91.

In order, therefore, to guard against so great an evil, it has been the policy of all the American states, which have, individually, framed their state constitutions, since the revolution, and of the people of the United States, when they framed the federal constitution, to define with precision the objects of the legislative power, and to restrain its exercise within marked and settled boundaries. If any act of congress, or of the legislature of a state, violates those constitutional provisions, it is unquestionably void; though, I admit, that as the authority to declare it void is of a delicate and awful nature, the court will never resort to that authority, but in a clear and urgent case. If, on the other hand, the legislature of the Union, or the legislature of any member of the Union, shall pass a law, within the general scope of their constitutional power, the court cannot pronounce it to be void, merely because it is, in their judgment, contrary to the principles of natural justice. The ideas of natural justice are regulated by no fixed standard: the ablest and the purest men have differed upon the subject; and all that the court could properly say, in such an event, would be, that the legislature (possessed of an equal right of opinion) had passed an act which, in the opinion of the judges, was inconsistent with the abstract principles of natural justice. There are then but two lights, in which the subject can be viewed: 1st. If the legislature pursue the authority delegated to them, their acts are valid. 2d. If they transgress the boundaries of that authority, their acts are invalid. In the former case, they exercise the discretion vested in them by the people, to whom alone they are responsible for the faithful discharge of their trust: but in the latter case, they violate a fundamental law, which must be our guide, whenever we are called upon, as judges, to determine the validity of a legislative act.

nolu chan  posted on  2017-02-08   17:20:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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