Bang / Guns
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Title: Ninth Circuit: Right to Bear Arms Includes Right to Acquire Arms
Source:
Breitbart
URL Source: http://www.breitbart.com/california ... s-includes-right-acquire-arms/
Published: May 16, 2016
Author: Awr Hawkins
Post Date: 2016-05-16 22:55:10 by cranky
Keywords: None
Views: 65383
Comments: 164
The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit ruled Monday that the right to bear arms has historically included the right to acquire them, and remanded the case of Teixeira v. County of Alameda to the lower court.
Teixeira revolves around Alameda County zoning rules for incorporated areas that not only require a gun store owner to obtain requisite local, state, and federal permits for the business, but also make sure “the proposed location of the business is not within five hundred feet of a ‘[r]esidentially zoned district; elementary, middle or high school; pre-school or day care center; other firearms sales business; or liquor stores or establishments in which liquor is served.'”
Teixeira revolves around Alameda County zoning rules for incorporated areas that not only require a gun store owner to obtain requisite local, state, and federal permits for the business, but also make sure “the proposed location of the business is not within five hundred feet of a ‘[r]esidentially zoned district; elementary, middle or high school; pre-school or day care center; other firearms sales business; or liquor stores or establishments in which liquor is served.'”
After being denied the requisite county permits to open “Valley Guns and Ammo” — due to complaints of persons within 500 feet of the proposed business — Plaintiff John Teixeira contended that the “500-foot rule” was tantamount to a backdoor ban on gun stores. And while there was some question over the exact distance between the proposed store and some of those who complained, the issue for Teixeira turned on the right of due process and other rights protected by the Second Amendment.
Teixeira challenged Alameda County’s decision in the United States District Court for the Northern District of California and lost. He then appealed the case to the 9th Circuit Court, where the ruling has remanded the case to the lower court.
In summarizing the latest ruling, the court pointed to the Ninth Circuit’s position that Alameda County “had offered nothing to undermine the panel’s conclusion that the right to purchase and to sell firearms is part and parcel of the historically recognized right to keep and to bear arms.”
Writing in the Majority Opinion, 9th Circuit Judge Diarmuid O’Scannlain emphasized, “Our forefathers recognized that the prohibition of commerce in firearms worked to undermine the right to keep and to bear arms.”
O’Scannlain also pointed to the recognition of the importance of buying and selling firearms from the time of the English Bill of Rights (1689) to founding of the United States.
Regarding the era in which the United States was founded, O’Scannlain explained that the states which ratified that Second Amendment did so believing they were not simply protecting a right to keep and bear arms but to buy and sell them as well. He wrote:
(1 image)The historical record indicates that Americans continued to believe that such right included the freedom to purchase and to sell weapons. In 1793, Thomas Jefferson noted that “[o]ur citizens have always been free to make, vend, and export arms. It is the constant occupation and livelihood of some of them.”
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Teixeira revolves around Alameda County zoning rules
So much for original intent.
#6. To: Roscoe (#3)
So much for original intent.
How so? Do you disagree with what Judge O’Scannlain said, below? Or do you think it doesn't apply if the prohibition of commerce in firearms is disguised as a zoning rule?
'Writing in the Majority Opinion, 9th Circuit Judge Diarmuid O’Scannlain emphasized, “Our forefathers recognized that the prohibition of commerce in firearms worked to undermine the right to keep and to bear arms.”
'O’Scannlain also pointed to the recognition of the importance of buying and selling firearms from the time of the English Bill of Rights (1689) to founding of the United States.
'Regarding the era in which the United States was founded, O’Scannlain explained that the states which ratified that Second Amendment did so believing they were not simply protecting a right to keep and bear arms but to buy and sell them as well. He wrote:
'"The historical record indicates that Americans continued to believe that such right included the freedom to purchase and to sell weapons. In 1793, Thomas Jefferson noted that “[o]ur citizens have always been free to make, vend, and export arms. It is the constant occupation and livelihood of some of them.”'
#12. To: ConservingFreedom (#6)
How so?
Your ignorance is appalling.
#14. To: Roscoe (#12)
Your evasions are appalling.
#15. To: ConservingFreedom (#14)
Quote one Framer contending that the intent of the 2nd Amendment was to control county zoning laws, ignoramus.
#19. To: Roscoe, ConservingFreedom (#15)
Quote one Framer contending that the intent of the 2nd Amendment was to control county zoning laws, ignoramus.
The 14th Amendment did not exist in the times of the Framers. In their time the entire BoR only applied to the Federal Government.
See MacDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 742 (2010), Syllabus at 2:
(b) The Bill of Rights, including the Second Amendment, originally applied only to the Federal Government, not to the States, see, e.g., Barron ex rel. Tiernan v. Mayor of Baltimore, 7 Pet. 243, 247, but the constitutional Amendments adopted in the Civil War’s aftermathfundamentally altered the federal system.
See MacDonald, Syllabus at 3:
(d) The Fourteenth Amendment makes the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms fully applicable to the States. Pp. 19–33.
County zoning laws which unduly infringe upon 2nd Amendment rights are unconstitutional.
#28. To: nolu chan (#19)
In their time the entire BoR only applied to the Federal Government.
Really?
The clause "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" originally referred only to Federal officials, employees, appointees, etc?
#30. To: cranky, Y'ALL, Nolu Chan, (#28)
nolu chan --- In their time the entire BoR only applied to the Federal Government.Cranky --- Really?
Nolu Chan responds, repeating himself, with yet another opinion: ---
The Second Amendment refers to a preesisting right of the people. It did not create any right for anybody. As with the entire Bill of Rights, it did not apply to the States. It was a restriction of authority of the Federal government, only.
This type of opinion is currently being used in California to infringe on our right to bear arms.
Why Nolu continues to support these State infringements, based on anti-gun opinions, is beyond rationality.
Does he really believe that our republican form of government is best served by further prohibitions on individual freedoms?
#33. To: tpaine, cranky (#30)
Why Nolu continues to support these State infringements, based on anti-gun opinions, is beyond rationality.Does he really believe that our republican form of government is best served by further prohibitions on individual freedoms?
Hey, it's like a scene from Remember the Titans. tpaine, you must be Dean Martin and cranky, you must be Jerry. I'm your daddy. Now, both of y'all, just get on the bus.
See tpaine shill for his favorite Libertarian constitutional scholar:
http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=45874
U.S. Constitution
See other U.S. Constitution ArticlesTitle: Our Republican Constitution
Source: Amazon
URL Source: [None]
Published: Apr 21, 2016
Author: Randy Barnett
Post Date: 2016-04-21 18:54:18 by tpaine
http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=46251
U.S. Constitution
See other U.S. Constitution ArticlesTitle: Our Republican Constitution: Securing the Liberty and Sovereignty of We the People
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: May 15, 2016
Author: Randy E. Barnett
Post Date: 2016-05-15 00:25:26 by tpaine
Not only did Randy Barnett publish the 296-page book for the general public above, but he previously published a real, full-blasted 1,348-page legal casebook which i just happen to own, and from which I quoted at my #29. Yes, I used tpaine's own preferred constitutional expert (among others) to certify that tpaine is full of shit and has no clue what he is talking about. It is an historical fact that when the Bill of Rights was passed in 1791 as part of the organic law defining the powers of the Federal government, the amendments did not restrict the powers then held by the state governments.
Constitutional Law, Cases in Context, Randy E. Barnett, Aspen Publishers, 2008, page 148:
Today, most people take for granted that state governments must respect the rights contained in the Bill of Rights, but this is a relatively modern development that took place only after the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment. In Barron v. Baltimore, Chief Justice Marshall describes what came to be the settled view of how and why the Bill of Rights did not apply to the states. Reading Barron in its entirety is essential to grasping the objectives of the Repubicans in the Thirty-ninth Congress who drafted the Fourteenth Amendment, portions of which were meant to reverse Barron. Barron is to the Fourteenth Amendment what Chisholm v. Georgia is to the Eleventh. The reasoning of Barron is also crucial to appreciating both the need for, and the controversy surrounding, the so-called incorporation doctrine, developed in the twentieth century, by which selected portions of the Bill of Rights were "incorporated" into the Fourteenth Amendment and applied to the states.
#34. To: nolu chan, puts foot in mouth, again, Y'ALL (#33)
What really puzzles me is why any rational person would WANT to give States the power to ignore our individual rights.
Why Nolu continues to support these State infringements, based on anti-gun opinions, is beyond rationality. Does he really believe that our republican form of government is best served by further prohibitions on individual freedoms?
In reply, (actually, - putting foot in mouth) nolu posts: ---
Title: Our Republican Constitution: Securing the Liberty and Sovereignty of We the People Source: [None] URL Source: [None] Published: May 15, 2016 Author: Randy E. Barnett
Not only did Randy Barnett publish the 296-page book for the general public above, but he previously published a real, full- blasted 1,348-page legal casebook which i just happen to own, and from which I quoted at my #29. Yes, I used tpaine's own preferred constitutional expert (among others) to certify that tpaine is full of shit and has no clue what he is talking about.
Anyone can read Barnetts book, which establishes the FACT that there has always been argument about whether the States were bound by amendments to the constitution. -- Natually, the slave States disagreed. -- Nolu still does...
[this is not in Barnetts book] It is an historical fact that when the Bill of Rights was passed in 1791 as part of the organic law defining the powers of the Federal government, the amendments did not restrict the powers then held by the state governments.
So nolu claims, unsupported by the clear words of our Constitution, which specifies the opposite in several places, which I have previously pointed out.
The following, by Barnett, supports my argument: --
Constitutional Law, Cases in Context, Randy E. Barnett, Aspen Publishers, 2008, page 148:
"Today, most people take for granted that state governments must respect the rights contained in the Bill of Rights, but this is a relatively modern development that took place only after the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment. In Barron v. Baltimore, Chief Justice Marshall describes what came to be the settled view of how and why the Bill of Rights did not apply to the states."
Operative words: -- "what came to be". --- GRANTED, - the SCOTUS and the slave States (and later the southern democrats) have INSISTED that this is the 'settled view'.
It is not... And has been in contention ever since.
#35. To: tpaine (#34)
Anyone can read Barnetts book, [except tpaine] which establishes the FACT that there has always been argument about whether the States were bound by amendments to the constitution. -- Natually, the slave States disagreed. -- Nolu still does...
tpaine cites no page for his argument that Barnett asserted there has been argument. It is a fact that there has been argument whether abortion should be legal or illegal. Citation to purported argument changes nothing.
What Barnett actually writes at page 108 of Our Republican Constitution (2016), speaking of the post-war amendments:
Why then add the Privileges and Immunities Clause to the Constitution if these rights were already included in Article IV and in the first eight amendments? Because, Howard expalined, the courts had ruled that "these immunities, privileges, rights, thus guaranteed by the Constitution or recognized by it . . . do not operate in the slightest degree as a restraint or prohibition upon State legislation."
There were arguments. The arguments had failed. The U.S. Supreme Court had been crystal clear that the Bill of Rights did not apply to the States. That was why the 14th Amendment was required.
[this is not in Barnetts book] It is an historical fact that when the Bill of Rights was passed in 1791 as part of the organic law defining the powers of the Federal government, the amendments did not restrict the powers then held by the state governments.So nolu claims, unsupported by the clear words of our Constitution, which specifies the opposite in several places, which I have previously pointed out.
Dean Arseface and partner Jerry claim the 2nd Amendment created the right to keep and bear arms. These shitheads overlook that the colonists declared independence in 1776, had a government and union for years under the Articles of Confederation, and formed a new union and government in 1789 under the Constitution. They then claim that the right to keep and bear arms was created by amendment in 1791. If one believes shithead law and history, nowhere in the 15 years between 1776 and 1791 did the people assert the right to keep and bear arms.
In reality, the people asserted the right to keep and bear arms as colonists, and as revolutionaries, and they brought that existing right with them into an American union.
Just how stupid can you get?
Barron v. Baltimore, 32 U.S. 243, 247-48 (1833)
Opinion of the Court, Chief Justice Marshall (7-0)
The Constitution was ordained and established by the people of the United States for themselves, for their own government, and not for the government of the individual States. Each State established a constitution for itself, and in that constitution provided such limitations and restrictions on the powers of its particular government as its judgment dictated. The people of the United States framed such a government for the United States as they supposed best adapted to their situation and best calculated to promote their interests. The powers they conferred on this government were to be exercised by itself, and the limitations on power, if expressed in general terms, are naturally, and we think necessarily, applicable to the government created by the instrument. They are limitations of power granted in the instrument itself, not of distinct governments framed by different persons and for different purposes.If these propositions be correct, the fifth amendment must be understood as restraining the power of the General Government, not as applicable to the States. In their several Constitutions, they have imposed such restrictions on their respective governments, as their own wisdom suggested, such as they deemed most proper for themselves. It is a subject on which they judge exclusively, and with which others interfere no further than they are supposed to have a common interest.
American Constitutional Law 1, Sources of Power and Restraint, Otis H. Stephens, jr. and John M. Sheb II, 5th Ed., 2012, at 321:
Incorporation of the Bill of Rights. Originally, the protections of the Bill of Rights applied only to infringements of liberty by the federal government (see Barron v. Baltimore [1833]) (discussed and reprinted in Volume II, chapter 1). However, the Fourteenth Amendment created a constitutional basis for the application of the Bill of Rights to state action.
Constitutional Law, 17th Ed., Kathleen M. Sullivan and Gerald Gunther, Foundation Press, 2000, Page 348:
The Bill of Rights originally guaranteed individual liberties only against the federal government. The proposal of the Bill of Rights was part of a political compromise designed to enlist support for ratification from Anti-Federalists who did not trust the enumeration of powers in the federal Constitution to serve as a sufficient check on the new national autority. Express checks on arbitrary exercises of authority were meant to add an external check to government of enumerated and thus limited powers. While Article I, § 10 imposed a handful of express prohibitions on state action, nothing in the first eight Amendments expressly constrained the states, and the 10th Amendment expressly reiterated that powers not delegated to the United States were reserved to the States.
Constitutional Law, 3rd Edition, Erwin Chermerinsky, Aspen Publishers, 2009, page 525-26:
The issue arose early in American history as to whether the Bill of Rights applies to state and local governments. The Supreme Court definitively answered that question in the following case.BARRON v. MAYOR & CITY COUNCIL OF BLATIMORE, 32 U.S. (7 Pet.) 243 (1833)
[case quote omitted]
From a late twentieth century perspective, it is troubling that state and local governments were free to violate basic constitutional rights. Yet, at the time of its decision, Barron made sense because of faith in state constitutions and because of the shared understanding that the Bill of Rights was meant to apply only to the federal government. As Professor John Hart Ely noted: "In terms of the original understanding, Barron was almost certainly decided correctly."
Cases and Materials on Federal Constitutional Law, Volume V, The Fourteenth Amendment, Lee J. Strang, Lexis-Nexis 2013, page 61:
C. THE INCORPORATION DOCTRINEThe Incorporation Doctrine is a key function of the Due Process Clause. The Doctrine holds that (most of) the Bill of Rights applies to the states.
The Incorporation Doctrine was at the heart of intense controversy from the 1920s to the 1960s. The controversy had a number of facets: first, whether the Bill of Rights applied to the states; second, whether the Due Process Clause was the vehicle to make that happen; third, whether the Due Process Clause incorporated some or all of the Bill of Rights; fourth, if the Due Process Clause incorporated only some of the Bill of Rights, what test should the Supreme Court utilize to make that determination; and, fifth, are the rights incorporated against the states identical to the rights as applied to the federal government?
The background to the Incorporation Doctrine has two major components. The first is the Supreme Court case of Barron v. Baltimore, 32 U.S. (7 Pet.) 243 (1833), reprinted below, where the Supreme Court ruled that the Bill of Rights only restricted the federal government. The second component is the goal of the Reconstruction Republicans, inherited from the antebellum abolitionist movement, to apply federal constitutional restrictions to the states to prohibit slavery and protect newly freed black Americans.
American Constitutional Law, Second Edition, Lawrence H. Tribe, The Foundation Press, Inc., 1988, page 772: (some citations omitted)
§ 11-2. Selective Incorporation of Bill of Rights Safeguards as a Partial AnswerIn 1938, in United States v. Carolene Products Co., the Supreme Court suggested that "[t]here may be narrower scope for operation of the presumption of constitutionality when legislation appears on its face to be within a specific prohibition of the Constitution, such as those of the first ten Amendments, which are deemed equally specific when held to be embraced within the Fourteenth." Nine years later, the Court came within one vote of holding that the fourteenth amendment guaranteed that "no state could deprive its citizens of the privileges and protections of the Bill of Rights. 2 Such a holding could have taken either of two forms: most plausibly, it could have emerged as an elaboration of the privileges or immunities of national citizenship; or it could have emerged as a translation of fourteenth amendment "liberty" into the freedoms secured by the Bill of Rights, with the understanding that depriving someone of such liberty "without due process of law" means doing so "where the federal government could not." In neither form has the full incorporation of the Bill of Rights into the fourteenth amendment ever commanded a majority on the Court, but in giving content to the due process clause "the Court has looked increasingly to the Bill of Rights for guidance [to the point where] many of the rights guaranteed by the first eight Amendments'" have been "selectively" absorbed into the fourteenth.
2 Adamson v. California, 332 U.S. 46, 74-75 (1947) (Black, J., dissenting, joined on this issue by Douglas, Mruphy, and Rutledge, JJ.)
Constitutional Law, Sixth Edition, Jerome A. Barron and C. Thomas Dienes, Black letter Series, West Group, 2003, page 164:
B. BILL OF RIGHTSOne of the acts of the first Congress was to initiate the enactment of ten amendments to the Constitution, popularly called the Bill of Rights. These amendments were designed to protect the individual from various infringements on freedom which might emanate from the newly created federal government. The provisions of the Bill of Rights do not directly limit state action. Barron v. The Mayor and City Council of Baltimore (1833). Most of the guarantees of the Bill of Rights apply to the states as part of the liberty protected by The Fourteenth Amendment Due Process Clause.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/incorporation_doctrine
Incorporation DoctrineThe incorporation doctrine is a constitutional doctrine through which selected provisions of the Bill of Rights are made applicable to the states through the Due Process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. This means that state governments are held to the same standards as the Federal Government regarding certain constitutional rights. The Supreme Court could have used the Privileges and Immunities Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to apply the Bill of Rights to the states. However, in the Slaughter-House Cases 83 US 36, the Supreme Court held that the Privileges and Immunities clause of the Fourteenth Amendment placed no restriction on the police powers of the state and it was intended to apply only to privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States and not the privileges and immunities of citizens of the individual states. This decision effectively put state laws beyond the review of the Supreme Court. To circumvent this, the Supreme Court began a process called “selective incorporation” by gradually applying selected provisions of the Bill of Rights to the states through the Fourteenth Amendment Due Process clause.
For Arsefaces who believe the whole Bill of Rights applies to the States today, they must explain the Fifth Amendment requirement for a Grand Jury.
Amendment VNo person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
As everyone but Arseface knows, the vast majority of State cases are instituted without a Grand Jury, relying on an information submitted to the court.
Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Edition
Information. An accusation exhibited against a person for some criminal offense, without an indictment. An accusation in the nature of an indictment, from which it differs only in being presented by a competent public officer on his oath of office, instead of a grand jury on their oath. A written accusation made by a public prosecutor, without the intervention of a grand jury. Salvail v. Sharkey, 108 RI. 63, 271 A.2d 814, 817. Function of an "information" is to inform defendant of the nature of the charge made against him and the act constituting such charge so that he can prepare for trial and to prevent him from being tried again for the same offense. People v. Cooper, 35 Misc.2d 90, 229 N.Y.S.2d 287, 288.While Fifth Amendment of U.S. Constitution requires federal government to prosecute infamous crimes only upon presentment of grand jury indictment, in most states the information may be used in place of grand jury indictment to bring a person to trial. As regards federal crimes, see Fed.RCrim.P. 7. See also Arraignment; Indictment; Preliminary hearing. As to joinder of informations, see Joinder.
The Grand Jury provision of the Fifth Amendment has not been incorporated against the States. That has been the state of things from 1791 to 2016.
Arseface.
#36. To: nolu chan (#35)
The following, by Barnett, supports my argument: --
Constitutional Law, Cases in Context, Randy E. Barnett, Aspen Publishers, 2008, page 148:
"Today, most people take for granted that state governments must respect the rights contained in the Bill of Rights, but this is a relatively modern development that took place only after the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment. In Barron v. Baltimore, Chief Justice Marshall describes what came to be the settled view of how and why the Bill of Rights did not apply to the states."
Operative words: -- "what came to be". --- GRANTED, - the SCOTUS and the slave States (and later the southern democrats, and now the progressive prohibitionists) have INSISTED that this is the 'settled view'.
It is not... And has been in contention ever since.
There were arguments. The arguments had failed. The U.S. Supreme Court had been crystal clear that the Bill of Rights did not apply to the States. That was why the 14th Amendment was required.
Round you go, in your circular denials, dispute your admission that there were arguments, --- and of course they 'failed', in YOUR eyes,and those of the SCOTUS.
And as I've also said before, the 14th was indeed needed to clarify the issue, after the civil war.
As usual, the rest of your post is repetitive opinion, that proves nothing other than you persist in trying to bafflegab the real issue. -- States are bound to honor our Constitution and its amendments, as specified in the document itself, and they always have been.
#38. To: tpaine (#36)
States are bound to honor our Constitution and its amendments, as specified in the document itself, and they always have been.
As you (falsely) claim that the whole Bill of Rights applies, and has always applied, to the States, please explain why the States are free to try and execute people without complying with the 5th Amendment requirement for an indictment issued by a grand jury.
Amendment VNo person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Why are States free to ignore that requirement every day?
#39. To: nolu chan (#38)
States are bound to honor our Constitution and its amendments, as specified in the document itself, and they always have been.
As you (falsely) claim that the whole Bill of Rights applies, and has always applied, to the States,
As usual, you fail to read and understand. ---- Note "as specified in the document itself". ---- There are specific exceptions, in the document.
- please explain why the States are free to try and execute people without complying with the 5th Amendment requirement for an indictment issued by a grand jury.
Read below: --- "on a presentment or indictment".
Amendment V No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Why are States free to ignore that requirement every day?
States don't ignore it; -- they are empowered to use their own version of 'a presentment'.
Perhaps you should take a remedial course in reading comprehension?
#41. To: All (#39)
States are bound to honor our Constitution and its amendments, as specified in the document itself, and they always have been.
As you (falsely) claim that the whole Bill of Rights applies, and has always applied, to the States,
As usual, you fail to read and understand. ---- Note "as specified in the document itself". ---- There are specific exceptions, within the document. -- You claim the 5th amendment is such an exception.
For a major Federal crime, a grand jury is mandatory per the 5th Amendment. For a State prosecution is is not, depending on State law. Most states use an information, with no grand jury presentment or indictment involved, as no grand jury is involved. --- How can that be if the 5th Amendment applies to the States?
According to you, it doesn't. -- Which does NOT MEAN that a State like California can ignore the 2nd Amendment.
Why do you think it can?
#44. To: tpaine (#41)
States are bound to honor our Constitution and its amendments, as specified in the document itself, and they always have been.
As you (falsely) claim that the whole Bill of Rights applies, and has always applied, to the States,As usual, you fail to read and understand. ---- Note "as specified in the document itself". ---- There are specific exceptions, within the document. -- You claim the 5th amendment is such an exception.
As shown below, I contended the entire Bill of Rights applied only to the Federal government and not to the States when ratified in 1791.
Pursuant to the 14th Amendment, parts of the Bill of Rights have been selectively incorporated to apply to the States. The Second Amendment has recently been fully incorporated by McDonald v Chicago, 561 US 742 (2010). The Grand Jury provision of the 5th Amendment has never been incorporated and has never applied to the States, not in 1791, not now, and not in between.
No part of the Bill of Rights applies to the States, or has ever applied to the States, except those which have specifically been incorporated by the U.S. Supreme Court.
Your repeated claim that "This SCOTUS opinion is not definitive, and does not change the clear words of our Constitution, which has always applied to the States, except where specifically noted," is bullshit and has been bullshit for over two centuries.
As I have clearly stated, no part of the Bill of Rights has ever applied to the States until it was incorporated by the Supreme Court. Incorporation started in the 20th century. The Bill of Rights still has portions that have not been incorporated.
The Great State of California has, with no grand jury presentment or indictment, prosecuted a man for first degree murder, sentenced him to death, and had that upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court.
You may try to dodge, duck and divert but it isn't going to work. I will return yo to your bullshit and destroy it. You are only documenting your ignorance of the law, as with your ignorance of what a presentment is, and your ignorance of the rule of incorporation.
When ratified, the Bill of Rights hade no application to the States.
For a major Federal crime, a grand jury is mandatory per the 5th Amendment. For a State prosecution is is not, depending on State law. Most states use an information, with no grand jury presentment or indictment involved, as no grand jury is involved. --- How can that be if the 5th Amendment applies to the States?According to you, it doesn't. -- Which does NOT MEAN that a State like California can ignore the 2nd Amendment.
Why do you think it can?
The 2nd Amendment was fully incorporated in 2010 against the states., all of them, including California. As I said at my #19: "County zoning laws which unduly infringe upon 2nd Amendment rights are unconstitutional."
The 5th Amendment has never been fully incorporated and the Grand Jury provision has never applied to the States.
To help you remember:
#19. To: Roscoe, ConservingFreedom (#15)
Quote one Framer contending that the intent of the 2nd Amendment was to control county zoning laws, ignoramus.The 14th Amendment did not exist in the times of the Framers. In their time the entire BoR only applied to the Federal Government.
See MacDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 742 (2010), Syllabus at 2:
(b) The Bill of Rights, including the Second Amendment, originally applied only to the Federal Government, not to the States, see, e.g., Barron ex rel. Tiernan v. Mayor of Baltimore, 7 Pet. 243, 247, but the constitutional Amendments adopted in the Civil War’s aftermathfundamentally altered the federal system.See MacDonald, Syllabus at 3:
(d) The Fourteenth Amendment makes the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms fully applicable to the States. Pp. 19–33.County zoning laws which unduly infringe upon 2nd Amendment rights are unconstitutional.
#20. To: nolu chan, roscoe, Y'ALL (#19)
Roscoe --- Quote one Framer contending that the intent of the 2nd Amendment was to control county zoning laws, ignoramus.
Nolu Chan. ---- The 14th Amendment did not exist in the times of the Framers. In their time the entire BoR only applied to the Federal Government.
See MacDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 742 (2010), Syllabus at 2: --- (b) The Bill of Rights, including the Second Amendment, originally applied only to the Federal Government, not to the States, see, e.g., Barron ex rel. Tiernan v. Mayor of Baltimore, 7 Pet. 243, 247, but the constitutional Amendments adopted in the Civil War’s aftermath fundamentally altered the federal system.This SCOTUS opinion is not definitive, and does not change the clear words of our Constitution, which has always applied to the States, except where specifically noted.
County zoning laws which unduly infringe upon 2nd Amendment rights are unconstitutional.Correct.
#45. To: nolu chan (#44)
Most states use an information, with no grand jury presentment or indictment involved, as no grand jury is involved. --- How can that be if the 5th Amendment applies to the States?
According to you, it doesn't. -- Which does NOT MEAN that a State like California can ignore the 2nd Amendment.
Why do you think it can?
As I said at my #19: "County zoning laws which unduly infringe upon 2nd Amendment rights are unconstitutional."
Good to see that on that point, we agree.
Other than that, you really should try to find another hobby. - - Constitutional law certainly seems to be causing you to become overwrought.
#47. To: tpaine (#45)
Most states use an information, with no grand jury presentment or indictment involved, as no grand jury is involved. --- How can that be if the 5th Amendment applies to the States?According to you, it doesn't.
No, acccording to all law books and the U.S. Supreme Court.
You make the bullshit claim that the whole Bill of Rights has always applied to the States. Cornered liike a trappede rat, you can only bluster and try more bullshit. What is obvious, and wich you only make more obvious, is that you have no idea of what you are talking about.
-- Which does NOT MEAN that a State like California can ignore the 2nd Amendment.
Part of the 5th Amendment not applying does not mean that the 2nd Amendment does not apply. Only a shithead, such as yourself, would make that claim.
As I said at my #19: "County zoning laws which unduly infringe upon 2nd Amendment rights are unconstitutional."Good to see that on that point, we agree.
The 2nd Amendment was fully incorporated in 2010 by McDonald. In 1791, it did not apply at all to States. Good to see that on that point, we agree.
Other than that, you really should try to find another hobby. - - Constitutional law certainly seems to be causing you to become overwrought.
Oh noes. I wouldn't think of it. You are not good for much but slapping around for amusement. Keep providing amusement, you are doing a fine impression of a hit me doll. Unfortunately, you do not know shit about the law and it is painfully obvious. I will try to make it as painfully obvious as posssible.
IF, AS YOU MAINTAIN, THE BILL OF RIGHTS APPLIES, AND HAS ALWAYS APPLIED TO THE STATES, WHY HAVE THE STATES ALWAYS BEEN FREE TO IGNORE THE GRAND JURY REQUIREMENT OF THE FIFTH AMENDMENT?
No answer, huh?
#49. To: nolu chan (#47)
As I said at my #19: "County zoning laws which unduly infringe upon 2nd Amendment rights are unconstitutional."
Good to see that on that point, we agree.
The 2nd Amendment was fully incorporated in 2010 by McDonald. In 1791, it did not apply at all to States. Good to see that on that point, we agree.
The 2nd has always applied to the States, -- the 'incorporation' bull has just been used by statists to avoid compliance. - They, (and you) are losing.
Other than that, you really should try to find another hobby. - - Constitutional law certainly seems to be causing you to become overwrought.
Oh noes. I wouldn't think of it. You are not good for much but slapping around for amusement. Keep providing amusement, you are doing a fine impression of a hit me doll. Unfortunately, you do not know shit about the law and it is painfully obvious. I will try to make it as painfully obvious as posssible. ---- IF, AS YOU MAINTAIN, THE BILL OF RIGHTS APPLIES, AND HAS ALWAYS APPLIED TO THE STATES, WHY HAVE THE STATES ALWAYS BEEN FREE TO IGNORE THE GRAND JURY REQUIREMENT OF THE FIFTH AMENDMENT.
Why? --- I can only speculate, but I'd say this minor point was conceded to the statism freaks by wise constitutionalists.
Compromise is a necessary evil in our republican form of govt.
#50. To: tpaine (#49)
The 2nd has always applied to the States, -- the 'incorporation' bull has just been used by statists to avoid compliance. - They, (and you) are losing.
But you admit that part of the 5th Amendment has never applied and has been ignored by the States since 1791, and you are unable to explain why your bullshit theory of the constitution has been ignored for 215 years and counting.
You and your bullshit are a winner, as described by Oliver Wendell Holmes,
It is not enough for the knight of romance that you agree that his lady is a very nice girl—if you do not admit that she is the best that God ever made or will make, you must fight. There is in all men a demand for the superlative, so much so that the poor devil who has no other way of reaching it attains it by getting drunk. It seems to me that this demand is at the bottom of the philosopher’s effort to prove that truth is absolute and of the jurist’s search for criteria of universal validity which he collects under the head of natural law.
tpaine #40, imaginary constitutional law.
During a discussion with Nolu Chan, he asserted that an amendment repealing the 2nd could be ratified, and become a valid part of our Constitution. I contend such an amendment would be unconstitutional.
Only an idiot, such as tpaine, could find an amendment to the Constitution to be unconstitutional.
As for the whole Bill of Rights,
Barron v. Baltimore, 32 U.S. 243, 247-48 (1833)
Opinion of the Court, Chief Justice Marshall (7-0)
The Constitution was ordained and established by the people of the United States for themselves, for their own government, and not for the government of the individual States. Each State established a constitution for itself, and in that constitution provided such limitations and restrictions on the powers of its particular government as its judgment dictated. The people of the United States framed such a government for the United States as they supposed best adapted to their situation and best calculated to promote their interests. The powers they conferred on this government were to be exercised by itself, and the limitations on power, if expressed in general terms, are naturally, and we think necessarily, applicable to the government created by the instrument. They are limitations of power granted in the instrument itself, not of distinct governments framed by different persons and for different purposes.If these propositions be correct, the fifth amendment must be understood as restraining the power of the General Government, not as applicable to the States. In their several Constitutions, they have imposed such restrictions on their respective governments, as their own wisdom suggested, such as they deemed most proper for themselves. It is a subject on which they judge exclusively, and with which others interfere no further than they are supposed to have a common interest.
American Constitutional Law 1, Sources of Power and Restraint, Otis H. Stephens, jr. and John M. Sheb II, 5th Ed., 2012, at 321:
Incorporation of the Bill of Rights. Originally, the protections of the Bill of Rights applied only to infringements of liberty by the federal government (see Barron v. Baltimore [1833]) (discussed and reprinted in Volume II, chapter 1). However, the Fourteenth Amendment created a constitutional basis for the application of the Bill of Rights to state action.
Constitutional Law, 17th Ed., Kathleen M. Sullivan and Gerald Gunther, Foundation Press, 2000, Page 348:
The Bill of Rights originally guaranteed individual liberties only against the federal government. The proposal of the Bill of Rights was part of a political compromise designed to enlist support for ratification from Anti-Federalists who did not trust the enumeration of powers in the federal Constitution to serve as a sufficient check on the new national autority. Express checks on arbitrary exercises of authority were meant to add an external check to government of enumerated and thus limited powers. While Article I, § 10 imposed a handful of express prohibitions on state action, nothing in the first eight Amendments expressly constrained the states, and the 10th Amendment expressly reiterated that powers not delegated to the United States were reserved to the States.
Constitutional Law, 3rd Edition, Erwin Chermerinsky, Aspen Publishers, 2009, page 525-26:
The issue arose early in American history as to whether the Bill of Rights applies to state and local governments. The Supreme Court definitively answered that question in the following case.BARRON v. MAYOR & CITY COUNCIL OF BLATIMORE, 32 U.S. (7 Pet.) 243 (1833)
[case quote omitted]
From a late twentieth century perspective, it is troubling that state and local governments were free to violate basic constitutional rights. Yet, at the time of its decision, Barron made sense because of faith in state constitutions and because of the shared understanding that the Bill of Rights was meant to apply only to the federal government. As Professor John Hart Ely noted: "In terms of the original understanding, Barron was almost certainly decided correctly."
Cases and Materials on Federal Constitutional Law, Volume V, The Fourteenth Amendment, Lee J. Strang, Lexis-Nexis 2013, page 61:
C. THE INCORPORATION DOCTRINEThe Incorporation Doctrine is a key function of the Due Process Clause. The Doctrine holds that (most of) the Bill of Rights applies to the states.
The Incorporation Doctrine was at the heart of intense controversy from the 1920s to the 1960s. The controversy had a number of facets: first, whether the Bill of Rights applied to the states; second, whether the Due Process Clause was the vehicle to make that happen; third, whether the Due Process Clause incorporated some or all of the Bill of Rights; fourth, if the Due Process Clause incorporated only some of the Bill of Rights, what test should the Supreme Court utilize to make that determination; and, fifth, are the rights incorporated against the states identical to the rights as applied to the federal government?
The background to the Incorporation Doctrine has two major components. The first is the Supreme Court case of Barron v. Baltimore, 32 U.S. (7 Pet.) 243 (1833), reprinted below, where the Supreme Court ruled that the Bill of Rights only restricted the federal government. The second component is the goal of the Reconstruction Republicans, inherited from the antebellum abolitionist movement, to apply federal constitutional restrictions to the states to prohibit slavery and protect newly freed black Americans.
American Constitutional Law, Second Edition, Lawrence H. Tribe, The Foundation Press, Inc., 1988, page 772: (some citations omitted)
§ 11-2. Selective Incorporation of Bill of Rights Safeguards as a Partial AnswerIn 1938, in United States v. Carolene Products Co., the Supreme Court suggested that "[t]here may be narrower scope for operation of the presumption of constitutionality when legislation appears on its face to be within a specific prohibition of the Constitution, such as those of the first ten Amendments, which are deemed equally specific when held to be embraced within the Fourteenth." Nine years later, the Court came within one vote of holding that the fourteenth amendment guaranteed that "no state could deprive its citizens of the privileges and protections of the Bill of Rights. 2 Such a holding could have taken either of two forms: most plausibly, it could have emerged as an elaboration of the privileges or immunities of national citizenship; or it could have emerged as a translation of fourteenth amendment "liberty" into the freedoms secured by the Bill of Rights, with the understanding that depriving someone of such liberty "without due process of law" means doing so "where the federal government could not." In neither form has the full incorporation of the Bill of Rights into the fourteenth amendment ever commanded a majority on the Court, but in giving content to the due process clause "the Court has looked increasingly to the Bill of Rights for guidance [to the point where] many of the rights guaranteed by the first eight Amendments'" have been "selectively" absorbed into the fourteenth.
2 Adamson v. California, 332 U.S. 46, 74-75 (1947) (Black, J., dissenting, joined on this issue by Douglas, Mruphy, and Rutledge, JJ.)
Constitutional Law, Sixth Edition, Jerome A. Barron and C. Thomas Dienes, Black letter Series, West Group, 2003, page 164:
B. BILL OF RIGHTSOne of the acts of the first Congress was to initiate the enactment of ten amendments to the Constitution, popularly called the Bill of Rights. These amendments were designed to protect the individual from various infringements on freedom which might emanate from the newly created federal government. The provisions of the Bill of Rights do not directly limit state action. Barron v. The Mayor and City Council of Baltimore (1833). Most of the guarantees of the Bill of Rights apply to the states as part of the liberty protected by The Fourteenth Amendment Due Process Clause.
#52. To: nolu chan (#50)
The 2nd Amendment was fully incorporated in 2010 by McDonald. In 1791, it did not apply at all to States. Good to see that on that point, we agree.
The 2nd has always applied to the States, -- the 'incorporation' bull has just been used by statists to avoid compliance. - They, (and you) are losing.
Other than that, you really should try to find another hobby. - - Constitutional law certainly seems to be causing you to become overwrought.
Oh noes. I wouldn't think of it. You are not good for much but slapping around for amusement. Keep providing amusement, you are doing a fine impression of a hit me doll. Unfortunately, you do not know shit about the law and it is painfully obvious. I will try to make it as painfully obvious as posssible. ---- IF, AS YOU MAINTAIN, THE BILL OF RIGHTS APPLIES, AND HAS ALWAYS APPLIED TO THE STATES, WHY HAVE THE STATES ALWAYS BEEN FREE TO IGNORE THE GRAND JURY REQUIREMENT OF THE FIFTH AMENDMENT.
Why? --- I can only speculate, but I'd say this minor point was conceded to the statism freaks by wise constitutionalists.
Compromise is a necessary evil in our republican form of govt.
But ------- you are unable to explain why your bullshit theory of the constitution has been ignored for 215 years and counting.
I've explained that to you numerous times before, on this thread, and others. --- You don't like my answer and you never will admit it. -- Tough.
tpaine #40, imaginary constitutional law.
During a discussion with Nolu Chan, he asserted that an amendment repealing the 2nd could be ratified, and become a valid part of our Constitution. I contend such an amendment would be unconstitutional.
Only an idiot, such as tpaine, could find an amendment to the Constitution to be unconstitutional.
Do you really think that calling me a name resolves the issue: -- can we 'amend away' our inalienable rights? Constitutionally? --- Logically, of course NOT. -- Why would you WANT to argue that we can? Damned if I know, or care..
You then go on: ---
As for the whole Bill of Rights, ---
Posting the same long list of opinions you've posted many times before. -- Opinions do not prove your point that: --
The 2nd Amendment was fully incorporated in 2010 by McDonald. In 1791, it did not apply at all to States.The 2nd has always applied to the States, -- the 'incorporation' bull has just been used by statists to avoid compliance. - They, (and you) are losing.
#53. To: tpaine (#52)
The 2nd has always applied to the States, -- the 'incorporation' bull has just been used by statists to avoid compliance. - They, (and you) are losing.
You are full of shit. Lesson #1001 follows.
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/92/542/case.html
United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542, 553 (1875)
Syllabus at 542:
4. The right of the people peaceably to assemble for lawful purposes, with the obligation on the part of the States to afford it protection, existed long before the adoption of the Constitution. The First Amendment to the Constitution, prohibiting Congress from abridging the right to assemble and petition, was not intended to limit the action of the State governments in respect to their own citizens, but to operate upon the National Government alone. It left the authority of the States unimpaired, added nothing to the already existing powers of the United States, and guaranteed the continuance of the right only against Congressional interference. The people, for their protection in the enjoyment of it, must therefore look to the States, where the power for that purpose was originally placed.
Opinion of the Court at 552-53:
The particular amendment now under consideration assumes the existence of the right of the people to assemble for lawful purposes, and protects it against encroachment by Congress. The right was not created by the amendment; neither was its continuance guaranteed, except as against congressional interference. For their protection in its enjoyment, therefore, the people must look to the States. The power for that purpose was originally placed there, and it has never been surrendered to the United States.The right of the people peaceably to assemble for the purpose of petitioning Congress for a redress of grievances, or for any thing else connected with the powers or the duties of the national government, is an attribute of national citizenship, and, as such, under the protection of, and guaranteed by, the United States. The very idea of a government republican in form implies a right on the part of its citizens to meet peaceably for consultation in respect to public affairs and to petition for a redress of grievances. If it had been alleged in
Page 92 U. S. 553
these counts that the object of the defendants was to prevent a meeting for such a purpose, the case would have been within the statute, and within the scope of the sovereignty of the United States. Such, however, is not the case. The offence, as stated in the indictment, will be made out, if it be shown that the object of the conspiracy was to prevent a meeting for any lawful purpose whatever.
The second and tenth counts are equally defective. The right there specified is that of "bearing arms for a lawful purpose." This is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed, but this, as has been seen, means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress. This is one of the amendments that has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the national government, leaving the people to look for their protection against any violation by their fellow citizens of the rights it recognizes, to what is called, in The City of New York v. Miln, 11 Pet. 139, the "powers which relate to merely municipal legislation, or what was, perhaps, more properly called internal police," "not surrendered or restrained" by the Constitution of the United States.
#54. To: nolu chan (#53)
The second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed, but this, as has been seen, means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress. This is one of the amendments that has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the national government, leaving the people to look for their protection against any violation by their fellow citizens of the rights it recognizes, to what is called, in The City of New York v. Miln, 11 Pet. 139, the "powers which relate to merely municipal legislation, or what was, perhaps, more properly called internal police," "not surrendered or restrained" by the Constitution of the United States.
The Cruikshank OPINION above, claims that local police are not "restrained by the Constitution of the United States."?
And you actually believe this?
Get help...
#55. To: tpaine (#54)
The Cruikshank OPINION above, claims that local police are not "restrained by the Constitution of the United States."?And you actually believe this?
Get help...
Typical asshole quote out of context. The tpaine Court of the Demented™ needs help. Help is on the way and will just keep on coming.
The second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed, but this, as has been seen, means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress. This is one of the amendments that has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the national government, leaving the people to look for their protection against any violation by their fellow citizens of the rights it recognizes, to what is called, in The City of New York v. Miln, 11 Pet. 139, the "powers which relate to merely municipal legislation, or what was, perhaps, more properly called internal police," "not surrendered or restrained" by the Constitution of the United States.
http://loc.heinonline.org/loc/Page?handle=hein.usreports/usrep36&id=147#147
NYC v. Miln, 36 U.S. 102, 139 (1837)
There is then no collision between the law in question and the acts of Congress just commented on, and therefore, if the state law were to be considered as partaking of the nature of a commercial regulation, it would stand the test of the most rigid scrutiny if tried by the standard laid down in the reasoning of the Court quoted from the case of Gibbons v. Ogden.But we do not place our opinion on this ground. We choose rather to plant ourselves on what we consider impregnable positions. They are these:
That a state has the same undeniable and unlimited jurisdiction over all persons and things within its territorial limits as any foreign nation where that jurisdiction is not surrendered or restrained by the Constitution of the United States. That, by virtue of this, it is not only the right but the bounden and solemn duty of a state to advance the safety, happiness, and prosperity of its people and to provide for its general welfare by any and every act of legislation which it may deem to be conducive to these ends where the power over the particular subject or the manner of its exercise is not surrendered or restrained in the manner just stated. That all those powers which relate to merely municipal legislation, or what may perhaps more properly be called internal police, are not thus surrendered or restrained, and that consequently, in relation to these, the authority of a state is complete, unqualified, and exclusive.
We are aware that it is at all times difficult to define any subject with proper precision and accuracy; if this be so in general, it is emphatically so in relation to a subject so diversified and multifarious as the one which we are now considering. If we were to attempt it, we should say that every law came within this description which concerned the welfare of the whole people of a state or any individual within it, whether it related to their rights or their duties; whether it respected them as men, or as citizens of the state; whether in their public or private relations; whether it related to the rights of persons or of property, of the whole people of a state or of any individual within it, and whose operation was within the territorial limits of the state and upon the persons and things within its jurisdiction.
#57. To: nolu chan (#55)
The Cruikshank OPINION above, claims that local police are not "restrained by the Constitution of the United States."?
And you actually believe this?
Get help...
Typical asshole quote out of context.
You posted the whole of the 'opinion', and I noted the part most offensive to our Constitutional principles, -- a part that is NOT out of context except in YOUR 'asshole' opinion.
Here tis, again:
That a state has the same undeniable and unlimited jurisdiction over all persons and things within its territorial limits as any foreign nation where that jurisdiction is not surrendered or restrained by the Constitution of the United States. ----- That all those powers which relate to merely municipal legislation, or what may perhaps more properly be called internal police, are not thus surrendered or restrained, and that consequently, in relation to these, the authority of a state is complete, unqualified, and exclusive.
Obviously, as stated in your own quote, there are indeed some state powers that are --- "restrained by the Constitution of the United States" ---
Why in hell you choose to argue this point is beyond rationality.
Really, get help..
#58. To: tpaine (#57)
The Cruikshank OPINION above, claims that local police are not "restrained by the Constitution of the United States."?And you actually believe this?
Get help...
Typical asshole quote out of context. The tpaine Court of the Demented™ needs help. Poor little paine is caught like a trapped rat. Help is on the way and will just keep on coming.
States were not restrained by the Bill of Rights until well after the adoption of the 14th Amendment.
Cruikshank at 553:
The second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed, but this, as has been seen, means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress. This is one of the amendments that has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the national government, leaving the people to look for their protection against any violation by their fellow citizens of the rights it recognizes, to what is called, in The City of New York v. Miln, 11 Pet. 139, the "powers which relate to merely municipal legislation, or what was, perhaps, more properly called internal police," "not surrendered or restrained" by the Constitution of the United States.
http://loc.heinonline.org/loc/Page?handle=hein.usreports/usrep32&id=559#559
Here is another U.S. Supreme Court opinion explicitly saying tpaine is a clueless gasbag. The hits just keep on coming.
Lessee of Livingston v. Moore, 32 U.S. 469, 551-52 (1833)
It is next contended, that the acts of 1806 and 1807 are unconstitutional and void, because contrary to the ninth section of the Pennsylvania bill of rights, which provides, in the words of magna charta, that no one shall be deprived of his property but by the laws of the land.This exception has already been disposed of by the view that has been taken of the nature and character of those laws. It has been shown that there is nothing in this provision either inconsistent with natural justice or the constitution of the state: there is nothing of an arbitrary character in them. They are also charged with being contrary to the ninth article of the amendments of the constitution of the United States, and the sixth section of the Pennsylvania bill of rights, securing the trial by juy.
As to the amendments of the constitution of the United States, they must be put out of the case; since it is now settled that those amendments do not extend to the states: and this observation disposes of the next exception, which relies on the seventh article of those amendments.
#60. To: nolu chan (#58)
Here is another U.S. Supreme Court opinion explicitly saying tpaine is a clueless gasbag. The hits just keep on coming. --- Lessee of Livingston v. Moore, 32 U.S. 469, 551-52 (1833) ----- -- As to the amendments of the constitution of the United States, they must be put out of the case; since it is now settled that those amendments do not extend to the states:
You mean your demented postings of arcane 'opinions' just keep on coming..
Whatta weirdo you are.
#61. To: tpaine (#60)
You mean your demented postings of arcane 'opinions' just keep on coming..
Of course, centuries of U.S. Supreme Court opinions are demented. Only tpaine is sane. Another daily dose of bullshit from the tpaine Court of the Demented™.
Then again, it was demented tpaine who claims amendments to the constitution can be held unconstitutional.
And it is demented tpaine who has shown he is incapable of response to my #40. I will repeat the post and demonstrate why tpaine is clearly demented in his claim that the Bill of Rights has always applied to the States.
#40. To: tpaine (#39)Read below: --- "on a presentment or indictment".Read below: --- "on a presentment or indictment"
Read again stupid: "Amendment V No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury,"
States use neither a presentment nor an indictment of a grand jury.
A grand jury is required for a Federal felony prosecution but not for a State prosecution. Get your head out of your ass.
Learn what a presentment is dumbshit.
Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Edition
Presentment. The written notice taken by a grand jury of any offense, from their own knowledge or observation without any bill of indictment laid before them at the suit of the government. A presentment is an accusation, initiated by the grand jury itself, and in effect instruction that an indictment be drawn. U.S. v. Briggs, C.A.Fla., 514 F.2d 794, 804. A written accusation of crime made and returned by the grand jury upon its own initiative in the exercise of its lawful inquisitorial powers, is in the form of a bill of indictment, and in practice is signed individually by all the grand jurors who return it. See State v. Hudson, 487 Tenn.Cr.Ap S.W.2d 672, 674. See also Indictment; Information; Presenter.
States don't ignore it; -- they are empowered to use their own version of 'a presentment'.Perhaps you should take a remedial course in reading comprehension?
No, you are too ignorant of the law to know what a presentment is, and too lazy to look up a legal term you do not know. You blather on only to prove to the world that you have no clue what you are talking about.
For a major Federal crime, a grand jury is mandatory per the 5th Amendment. For a State prosecution is is not, depending on State law. Most states use an information, with no grand jury presentment or indictment involved, as no grand jury is involved.
How can that be if the 5th Amendment applies to the States?
Hurtado v California, 110 US 516 (1884) 5th amd grand jury does not apply to states
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/criminal_procedure
Stages of the Criminal TrialAfter law enforcement arrests a suspect, a judge will set the suspect's initial bail, which is a specified amount of cash that allows the defendant to get out of jail after the initial arrest. If the defendant shows up for the proper court dates, the court refunds the bail, but if the defendant skips the date, then the court keeps the bail and issues a warrant for the individual's arrest.
The arraignment comes next. During an arraignment, a judge calls the person charged and takes the following actions: reading the criminal charges against the accused, asking the accused whether the accused has access to an attorney or needs the assistance of a court-appointed attorney, asking the accused to plead, deciding whether to amend the initial bail amount, and setting the dates of future proceedings.
The preliminary hearing follows the arraignment. At the preliminary hearing, the judge determines whether enough evidence exists for the prosecution to meet its burden of persuasion. The burden of persuasion refers to whether the prosecution even has enough evidence to make the defendant stand trial. The defense has the right to cross examine the government witnesses during this proceeding. Under federal law, a grand jury, rather than a judge, makes this determination when the defendant faces "capital or infamous crimes" pursuant to the U.S. Constitution's Fifth Amendment. Unlike the other rights afforded to criminal defendants, the U.S. Supreme Court has not found the Fifth Amendment grand jury right incorporated into state law through the Fourteenth Amendment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurtado_v._California
Facts of the caseJoseph Hurtado discovered that his wife, Susie, was having an affair with their friend, José Antonio Estuardo. After measures Hurtado took to put an end to the adulterous affair, such as temporarily sending his wife away to live with her parents, and later assaulting Estuardo in a bar after his wife returned and the liaisons resumed, proved futile, Hurtado fatally shot Estuardo. Hurtado was arrested for the crime but not indicted by a grand jury.
According to the California State Constitution at the time, the following applied: "Offenses heretofore required to be prosecuted by indictment, shall be prosecuted by information, after examination and commitment by a magistrate, or by indictment, with or without such examination and commitment, as may be prescribed by law. A grand jury shall be drawn and summoned at least once a year in each county."
The judge examined the information and determined that Hurtado should be brought to trial. Hurtado was tried, convicted of murder, and sentenced to death. At issue was whether or not the 14th Amendment's Due Process Clause extended to the states the 5th Amendment's Indictment Clause requiring indictment by grand jury.
Questions presented
Does a state criminal proceeding based on an information rather than a grand jury indictment violate the 14th Amendment's due process clause? [2] Is a grand jury indictment required by the 5th Amendment applicable to state criminal trials via the 14th Amendment?
Supreme Court decision
The Supreme Court ruled 7-1 that Hurtado's due process right was not violated by denial of a grand jury hearing and that the 14th Amendment was not intended to work retroactively to apply the 5th Amendment to state criminal trials. Writing for the majority, Justice Matthews stated that the states should be free to construct their own laws without infringement and that the 14th Amendment was not intended to guarantee the right of a grand jury because it would have been specifically referenced. His opinion also concluded that Hurtado's due process right was not violated because an information is "merely a preliminary proceeding and can result in no final judgment." He further concluded that Hurtado still received a fair trial.
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/110/516/case.html
U.S. Supreme CourtHurtado v. California, 110 U.S. 516 (1884)
Argued January 22d, 23d 1884.
Decided March 3d, 1884
110 U.S. 516
IN ERROR TO THE SUPREME COURT OF CALIFORNIA
Syllabus
1. The words "due process of law" in the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States do not necessarily require an indictment by a grand jury in a prosecution by a State for murder.
2. The Constitution of California authorizes prosecutions for felonies by information, after examination and commitment by a magistrate, without indictment by a grand jury, in the discretion of the legislature. The Penal Code of the State makes provision for an examination by a magistrate, in the presence of the accused, who is entitled to the aid of counsel
Page 110 U. S. 517
and the right of cross-examination of witnesses, whose testimony is to to reduced to writing and upon a certificate thereon by the magistrate that a described offence has been committed and that here is sufficient cause to believe the accused guilty thereof, and an order holding him to answer thereto, requires an information to be filed against the accused in the Superior court of the county in which the offence is triable in the form of an indictment for the same offence. Held, that a conviction upon such an information for murder in the first degree and a sentence of death thereon are not illegal by virtue of that clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States which prohibits the States from depriving any person of life, liberty or property without due process of law.
[...]
It follows that any legal proceeding enforced by public authority, whether sanctioned by age and custom, or newly devised in the discretion of the legislative power, in furtherance of the general public good, which regards and preserves these principles of liberty and justice, must be held to be due process of law.
The Constitution of Connecticut, adopted in 1818 and in force when the Fourteenth Amendment took effect, requires an indictment or presentment of a grand jury only in cases where the punishment of the crime charged is death or imprisonment for life, and yet it also declares that no person shall "be deprived of life, liberty, or property but by due course of law." It falls short, therefore, of that measure of protection which it is claimed is guaranteed by Magna Charta to the right of personal liberty, notwithstanding which it is no doubt justly said in Swift's Digest 17, that
"This sacred and inestimable right, without which all others are of little value, is enjoyed by the people of this State in as full extent as in any country on the globe, and in as high a degree as is consistent with the nature of civil government. No individual or body of men has a discretionary or arbitrary power to commit any person to prison; no man can be restrained of his liberty, be prevented from removing himself from place to place as he chooses, be compelled to go to a place contrary to his inclination, or be in any way imprisoned or confined unless by virtue of the express laws of the land. "
Page 110 U. S. 538
Tried by these principles, we are unable to say that the substitution for a presentment or indictment by a grand jury of the proceeding by information, after examination and commitment by a magistrate, certifying to the probable guilt of the defendant, with the right on his part to the aid of counsel, and to the cross-examination of the witnesses produced for the prosecution, is not due process of law. It is, as we have seen, an ancient proceeding at common law, which might include every case of an offence of less grade than a felony, except misprision of treason, and in every circumstance of its administration, as authorized by the statute of California, it carefully considers and guards the substantial interest of the prisoner. It is merely a preliminary proceeding, and can result in no final judgment except as the consequence of a regular judicial trial, conducted precisely as in cases of indictments.
In reference to this mode of proceeding at the common law, and which he says "is as ancient as the common law itself," Blackstone adds (4 Com. 305):
"And as to those offences in which informations were allowed as well as indictments, so long as they were confined to this high and respectable jurisdiction and were carried on in a legal and regular course in His Majesty's Court of King's Bench, the subject had no reason to complain. The same notice was given, the same process was issued, the same pleas were allowed, the same trial by jury was had, the same judgment was given by the same judges, as if the prosecution had originally been by indictment."
For these reasons, finding no error therein, the judgment of the Supreme Court of California is
Affirmed.
#62. To: nolu chan (#61)
You mean your demented postings of arcane 'opinions' just keep on coming..
Of course, centuries of U.S. Supreme Court opinions are demented. Only tpaine is sane.
You yourself admitted, way up post, that SCOTUS opinions have changed over the years. -- This doesn't make THEM demented, but you sure are...
But keep it up, please, --- this is really becoming amusing.
#63. To: tpaine (#62)
You mean your demented postings of arcane 'opinions' just keep on coming..
It is demented tpaine who has demonstrated he is incapable of explaining why states have never been required to use a presentment or indictment of a grand jury as required by Amendment 5 for the Federal government. After all, he is the jackass who insists that the entire Bill of Rights has always applied to the States, despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary.
And, of course, he has nothing with which to support his bullshit other than more of his own bullshit.
It's time for yet another U.S. Supreme Court opinion documenting that tpaine is full of shit.
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/413/123/case.html
U.S. Supreme Court
United States v. 12 200-Ft. Reels of Film, 413 U.S. 123, 132-33 (1973)
Douglas, J. dissenting
"[W]hatever may [have been] the form which the several States . . . adopted in making declarations in favor of particular rights," James Madison, the author of the First Amendment, tells us,"the great object in view [was] to limit and qualify the powers of [the Federal] Government by excepting out of the grant of power those cases in which the Government ought not to act, or to act only in a particular mode."
1 Annals of Cong. 437. Surely no one should argue that the retention by the States of vestiges of established religions after the enactment of the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses saps these clauses of their meaning. Yet it was precisely upon such reasoning that this Court, in Roth, exempted the bawdry from the protection of the First Amendment.
When it was enacted, the Bill of Rights applied only to the Federal Government, Barron v. Mayor of Baltimore, 7 Pet. 243, and the Tenth Amendment reserved the residuum of power to the States and the people. That the States, at some later date, may have exercised this reserved power in the form of laws restricting expression in no wise detracts from the express prohibition of the First Amendment. Only when the Fourteenth Amendment was passed did it become even possible to argue that, through it, the First Amendment became applicable to the States. But that goal was not attained until the ruling of this Court in 1931 that the reach of the Fourteenth Amendment included the First Amendment. See Stromberg v. California, 283 U. S. 359, 283 U. S. 368.
#64. To: nolu chan, a supporter of statist prohibitionists, is obsessed with his anti-constitutionalism. (#63)
You mean your demented postings of arcane 'opinions' just keep on coming..
It is demented tpaine who has demonstrated he is incapable of explaining why states have never been required to use a presentment or indictment of a grand jury as required by Amendment 5 for the Federal government.
Explained just above. --- As usual, you don't like my explanation, so you deny that it was made. -- You're behaving like a spoiled brat.
After all, he is the jackass who insists that the entire Bill of Rights has always applied to the States, despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary.
No mountain of evidence exists, just a a pile of opinions by pre civil war slave statists and after by Jim Crow democrats, followed by gun and drug war prohibitionists.
Obviously, nolu chan supports these statist prohibitionists.
#65. To: tpaine (#64)
No mountain of evidence exists, just a a pile of opinions by pre civil war slave statists and after by Jim Crow democrats, followed by gun and drug war prohibitionists.Obviously, nolu chan supports these statist prohibitionists.
From my #63 referred to.
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/413/123/case.html
U.S. Supreme CourtUnited States v. 12 200-Ft. Reels of Film, 413 U.S. 123, 132-33 (1973)
Douglas, J. dissenting
"[W]hatever may [have been] the form which the several States . . . adopted in making declarations in favor of particular rights," James Madison, the author of the First Amendment, tells us,"the great object in view [was] to limit and qualify the powers of [the Federal] Government by excepting out of the grant of power those cases in which the Government ought not to act, or to act only in a particular mode."
[...]
Yes, per the demented tpaine, James Madison was a pre-civil war slave statist who did not understand what the Bill of Rights was about. tpaine is the self-appointed expert who knows better than James Madison, he who is renowned as the Father of the Constitution and co-author of the Federalist Papers.
As will be seen shortly, tpaine also knows better than the Framers of the 14th Amendment.
tpaine is an ignorant, demented shitbag.
James Madison, Gales & Seatons History of the Debates in Congress, June 9, 1789, pp. 453-54
The first of these amendments relates to what may be called a bill of rights.[...]
But whatever may be the form which the several States have adopted in making declarations in favor of particular rights, the great object in view is to limit and qualify the powers of Government, by excepting out of the grant of power those cases in which the Government ought not to act, or to act only in a particular mode. They point these exceptions sometimes against the abuse of the executive power, sometimes against the legislative, and, in some cases, against the community itself; or, in other words, against the majority in favor of the minority.
In our Government it is, perhaps, less necessary to guard against the abuse in the executive department than any other; because it is not the stronger branch of the system, but the weaker. It therefore must be levelled against the legislative, for it is the most powerful, and most likely to be abused, because it is under the least control. Hence, so far as a declaration of right can tend to prevent the exercise of undue power, it cannot be doubted but such declaration is proper.
#66. To: nolu chan (#65)
No mountain of evidence exists, just a a pile of opinions by pre civil war slave statists and after by Jim Crow democrats, followed by gun and drug war prohibitionists.
Obviously, nolu chan supports these statist prohibitionists.
»» James Madison, the author of the First Amendment, tells us, "This great object in view [was] to limit and qualify the powers of [the Federal] Government by excepting out of the grant of power those cases in which the Government ought not to act, or to act only in a particular moment.----- Yes, per tpaine, James Madison was a pre-civil war slave statist who did not understand what the Bill of Rights was about.
Of course Madison knew what they were about, -- but even he, (a slave owner) said that in order to 'sell' the BOR'S to the slave States.
But whatever, -- Please continue your demented ranting. -- It's fun..
#67. To: tpaine (#66)
nolu chan at #65:
James Madison, Gales & Seatons History of the Debates in Congress, June 9, 1789, pp. 453-54
The first of these amendments relates to what may be called a bill of rights.[...]
But whatever may be the form which the several States have adopted in making declarations in favor of particular rights, the great object in view is to limit and qualify the powers of Government, by excepting out of the grant of power those cases in which the Government ought not to act, or to act only in a particular mode. They point these exceptions sometimes against the abuse of the executive power, sometimes against the legislative, and, in some cases, against the community itself; or, in other words, against the majority in favor of the minority.
tpaine at #66:
Of course Madison knew what they were about, -- but even he, (a slave owner) said that in order to 'sell' the BOR'S to the slave States.
You are clearly a bigoted asshole fuckstick. Not that there is anything wrong with that. The world needs bigoted asshole fucksticks to laugh at.
Let us not forget that Washington and Jefferson were slave owners, and Illinois, the Land o' Lincoln, proudly replaced slavery with 99-year indentured servitude and among the strictest Black laws in the country. Indeed, after slavery ended in the South, the 13th Amendment was needed to end slavery in the Union states where it persisted.
Onward and upward at demonstrating the scope of your assholery in denying that the Bill of Rights did not apply to the States, and characterizing James Madison as a liar when he said that.
Representative John Bingham and Senator Jacob Howard were co-authors, Framers of the Fourteenth Amendment. They should have known why a Fourteenth Amendment was necessary, and that the Bill of Rights did not apply to the States.
Representative John Bingham, House of Representatives, 28 February 1866, Cong. Globe, 39th Cong., 1st Sess., pp. 1089-90:
Mr. BINGHAM. Yes, sir, in the debate. A gentleman on the other side interrupted me and wanted to know if I could cite a decision showing that the power of the Federal Government to enforce in the United States courts the bill of rights under the articles of amendment to the Constitution had been denied. I answered that I was prepared to introduce such decisions; and that is exactly what makes plain the necessity of adopting this amendment.Mr. Speaker, on this subject I refer the House and the country to a decision of the Supreme Court, to be found in 7 Peters, 217, in the case of Barron vs. The Mayor and City Council of Baltimore, involving the question whether the provisions of the fifth article of the amendments to the Constitution are binding upon the State of Maryland and to be enforced in the Federal courts. The Chief Justice says:
"The people of the United States framed such a Government for the United States as they supposed best adapted to their situation and best calculated to promote their interests. The powers they conferred on this Government were to be exercised by itself; and the limitations of power, if expressed in general terms, are naturally, and we think necessarily, applicable to the Government created by the instrument. They are limitations of power granted in the instrument itself, not of distinct governments, framed by different persons and for different purposes.
"If these propositions be correct, the fifth amendment must be understood as restraining tho power of the General Government, not as applicable to the States."
I read one further decision on this subject— the case of the Lessee of Livingston vs. Moore and others 7 Peters, page 551. The court, in delivering its opinion, says:
"As to the amendments of the Constitution of the United States, they must be put out of the case, since it is now settled that those amendments do not extend to the States; and this observation disposes of the next exception, which relies on the seventh article of those amendments."
#68. To: nolu chan (#67)
tpaine at #66:
Of course Madison knew what they were about, -- but even he, (a slave owner) said that in order to 'sell' the BOR'S to the slave States.
You are clearly a bigoted ---- -----. Not that there is anything wrong with that. The world needs bigoted ---- ----- to laugh at.
You're the laugh here, reduced to sputtering your silly language. -- Nothing bigoted about civil war facts..
Let us not forget that Washington and Jefferson were slave owners, and Illinois, the Land o' Lincoln, proudly replaced slavery with 99-year indentured servitude and among the strictest Black laws in the country. Indeed, after slavery ended in the South, the 13th Amendment was needed to end slavery in the Union states where it persisted.
SO? -- What?
Onward and upward at demonstrating the scope of your --- holery in denying that the Bill of Rights did not apply to the States, and characterizing James Madison as a liar when he said that.
Read much? I didn't characterize Madison as a liar, -- which makes you one, as anyone can read..
Representative John Bingham and Senator Jacob Howard were co- authors, Framers of the Fourteenth Amendment. They should have known why a Fourteenth Amendment was necessary, and that the Bill of Rights did not apply to the States. ---- Representative John Bingham, House of Representatives, 28 February 1866, Cong. Globe, 39th Cong., 1st Sess., pp. 1089-90: ---- Mr. BINGHAM. Yes, sir, in the debate. A gentleman on the other side interrupted me and wanted to know if I could cite a decision showing that the power of the Federal Government to enforce in the United States courts the bill of rights under the articles of amendment to the Constitution had been denied. I answered that I was prepared to introduce such decisions; and that is exactly what makes plain the necessity of adopting this amendment.
How weird you are, as the above proves MY point.
#69. To: tpaine (#68)
I'm beating on your sorry ass so bad, could you please affirm that you are over 12 years old. I don't want anyone to accuse me of child abuse.
[tpaine #66] Of course Madison knew what they were about, -- but even he, (a slave owner) said that in order to 'sell' the BOR'S to the slave States.
[tpaine #68] Read much? I didn't characterize Madison as a liar, -- which makes you one, as anyone can read..
Of course you did. You allege he told a deliberate untruth to deceive others. That is what a lie is. A lie is told by a liar. That would be you. Madison told the truth.
[tpaine #68 quoting my quote of Bingham] "I answered that I was prepared to introduce such decisions; and that is exactly what makes plain the necessity of adopting this amendment.
[tpaine #68] No, dishonorable asshole. Decisions showing that the Bill of Rights did not apply to the States, necessitating the 14th Amendment to cure the problem, prove you are a dishonorable asshole.
Continuing with Bingham showing that you are a dishonorable asshole—
Representative John Bingham
Representative John Bingham and Senator Jacob Howard were co-authors of the Fourteenth Amendment.
Cong. Globe, 42nd Cong., 1st Sess. app. 84 (1871)
I answer the gentleman, how I came to change the form of February to the words now in the first section of the fourteenth article of amendment, as they stand, and I trust will forever stand, in the Constitution of my country. I had read—and that is what induced me to attempt to impose by constitutional amendments new limitations upon the power of the States—the great decision of Marshall in Barron vs. the Mayor and City Council of Baltimore, wherein the Chief Justice said, in obedience to his official oath and the Constitution as it then was:"The amendments [to the Constitution] contain no expression indicating an intention to apply them to the State governments. This court cannot so apply them."—7 Peters, p. 250.
In this case the city had taken private property for public use, without compensation as alleged, and there was no redress for the wrong in the Supreme Court of the United States; and only for this reason, the first eight amendments were not limitations on the power of the States.
And so afterward, in the case of the Lessee of Livingston vs. Moore and others, (7 Peters, 652,) the court ruled, "it is now settled that the amendments [to the Constitution] do not extend to the States." They were but limitations upon Congress.
[...]
In reëxamining that case of Barron, Mr. Speaker, after my struggle in the House in February, 1866, to which the gentleman has alluded, I noted and apprehended as I never did before, certain words in that opinion of Marshall. Referring to the first eight articles of amendments to the Constitution of the United States, the Chief Justice said: "Had the framers of these amendments intended them to be limitations on the powers of the State governments they would have imitated the framers of the original Constitution, and have expressed that intention." Barron vs. The Mayor, &c, 7 Peters, 250.
Acting upon this suggestion I did imitate the framers of the original Constitution. As they had said "no State shall emit bills of credit, pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligations of contracts imitating their example and imitating it to the letter, I prepared the provision of the first section of the fourteenth amendment as it stands in the Constitution, as follows:
"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of the citizens of the United States, nor shall any State deprive any person office, liberty, or property without due process of law, nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
I hope the gentleman now knows why I changed the form of the amendment of February, 1866.
Mr. Speaker, that the scope and meaning of the limitations imposed by the first section, fourteenth amendment of the Constitution may be more fully understood, permit me to say that the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States, as contradistinguished from citizens of a State, are chiefly defined in the first eight amendments to the Constitution of the United States. Those eight amendments are as follows:
Article I.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Article II.
A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Article III.
No soldier shall, in time of peace, he quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in the manner to be prescribed by law.
Article IV.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrant shall issue but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized.
Article V.
No person shall be held to answer for a capital or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in eases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb, nor shall be compelled on any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation.
Article VI.
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor; and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
Article VII.
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Article VIII..
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines, imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
These eight articles I have shown never "were limitations upon the power of the States, until made so by the fourteenth amendment. The words of that amendment, "no State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States," are an express prohibition upon every State of the Union, which may be enforced under existing laws of Congress, and such other laws for their better enforcement as Congress may make.
Mr. Speaker, that decision in the fourth of Washington's Circuit Court Reports, to which my learned colleague [Mr. Shellabarger] has referred is only a construction of the second section, fourth article of the original Constitution, to wit, "The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States." In that case the court only held that in civil rights the State could not refuse to extend to citizens of other States the same general rights secured to its own.
In the case of The United States vs. Primrose, Mr. Webster said that—
"For the purposes of trade, it is evidently not in the power of any State to impose any hinderance or embarrassment, &c, upon citizens of other States, or to place them, on coming there, upon a different footing from her own citizens."—6 Webster's Works, 112.
The learned Justice Story declared that—
"The intention of the clause ('the citizens of each State shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States,') was to confer on the citizens of each State a general citizenship, and communicated all the privileges and immunities which a citizen of the same State would be entitled to under the same circumstances." — Story on the Constitution, vol. 2, page 605.
Is it not clear that other and different privileges and immunities than those to which a citizen of a State was entitled are secured by the provision of the fourteenth article, that no State shall abridge the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States, which are defined in the eight articles of amendment, and which were not limitations on the power of the States before the fourteenth amendment made them limitations?
Sir, before the ratification of the fourteenth amendment, the State could deny to any citizen the right of trial by jury, and it was done. Before that the State could abridge the freedom of the press, and it was so done in half of the States of the Union. Before that a State, as in the case of the State of Illinois, could make it a crime punishable by fine and imprisonment for any citizen within her limits, in obedience to the injunction of our divine Master, to help a slave who was ready to perish; to give him shelter, or break with him his crust of bread. The validity of that State restriction upon the rights of conscience and the duty of life was affirmed, to the shame and disgrace of America, in the Supreme Court of the United States; but nevertheless affirmed in obedience to the requirements of the Constitution. (14 Howard, 19-20. Moore vs. The People.)
Under the Constitution as it is, not as it was, and by force of the fourteenth amendment, no State hereafter can imitate the bad example of Illinois, to which I have referred, nor can any State ever repeat the example of Georgia and send men to the penitentiary, as did that State, for teaching the Indian to read the lessons of the New Testament, to know that new evangel, "The pure in heart shall see God."
Damn, you are one stupid asshole.
#70. To: nolu chan (#69)
Yes, per tpaine, James Madison was a pre-civil war slave statist who did not understand what the Bill of Rights was about.
Of course Madison knew what they were about, -- but even he, (a slave owner) said that in order to 'sell' the BOR'S to the slave States.
You allege he told a deliberate untruth to deceive others. That is what a lie is. A lie is told by a liar. That would be you. Madison told the truth.
Madison shaded/compromised the truth (that the BOR'S applied to States) in order to get the slave States to ratify.
To Madison, ratification was more important than a white 'lie'.
Damn, you are one stupid asshole.
Just yesterday, our leader asked for a bit more civility. Do you feel exempt?
#73. To: tpaine, GrandIsland (#70)
I'm beating on your sorry ass so bad, could you please affirm that you are over 12 years old. I don't want anyone to accuse me of child abuse.
Of course Madison knew what they were about, -- but even he, (a slave owner) said that in order to 'sell' the BOR'S to the slave States.Madison shaded/compromised the truth (that the BOR'S applied to States) in order to get the slave States to ratify.
To Madison, ratification was more important than a white 'lie'.
No, you stupid fuck.
Madison, the Father of the Constitution, and co-author of the Federalist Papers, told them the truth that the Bill of Rights did not apply to the States.
The Supreme Court contained one (1) nominee of Adams, one (1) of Jefferson, two (2) of Madison, two (2) of Monroe, and one (1) of Jackson, when it decided the case of Barron v. Baltimore in 1833.
The opinion of the Court was UNANIMOUS. Every Justice in 1833, including those appointed by Madison, agreed with Madison and found that the Bill of Rights did not apply to the States.
Do tell, dishonorable asshole, were all the Supreme Court Justices still carrying on with your fairy tale of an alleged Madison white lie, or plain outrageous lie to deceive the people into ratifying eight constitutional amendments?
Why, 1833, were all the Supreme Court justices perpetuating what you call a white lie by Madison as a Framer of the Bill of Rights? Why did the seven justices unanimously lie in 1833?
Chief Justice John Marshall -- Federalist [Adams]
Justice William Johnson -- Democratic-Republican Party [Jefferson]
Justice Gabriel Duvall -- Democratic-Republican Party [Madison]
Justice Joseph Story -- Democratic-Republican Party [Madison]
Justice Smith Thompson -- National Republican Party [Monroe]
Justice McLean -- Democraatic-Republican Party [Monroe]
Justice Baldwin -- Democratic Republican Party [Jackson]
https://www.oyez.org/cases/1789-1850/32us243
Petitioner
John Barron ex rel. TiernanRespondent
Mayor of BaltimoreDocket no.
NoneDecided by
Marshall Court (1830-1834)Citation
32 US 243 (1833)Argued
Feb 8 - 11, 1833Decided
Feb 16, 1833Facts of the case
John Barron was co-owner of a profitable wharf in the harbor of Baltimore. As the city developed and expanded, large amounts of sand accumulated in the harbor, depriving Barron of the deep waters which had been the key to his successful business. He sued the city to recover a portion of his financial losses.
Question
Does the Fifth Amendment deny the states as well as the national government the right to take private property for public use without justly compensating the property's owner?
Conclusion
Decision for Mayor of Baltimoredismissal - other by John Marshall
The provisions of the first eight amendments applied only to the national government, not to the states
No. The Court announced its decision in this case without even hearing the arguments of the City of Baltimore. Writing for the unanimous Court, Chief Justice Marshall found that the limitations on government articulated in the Fifth Amendment were specifically intended to limit the powers of the national government. Citing the intent of the framers and the development of the Bill of Rights as an exclusive check on the government in Washington D.C., Marshall argued that the Supreme Court had no jurisdiction in this case since the Fifth Amendment was not applicable to the states.
Cite this page
"Barron ex rel. Tiernan v. Mayor of Baltimore." Oyez. Chicago-Kent College of Law at Illinois Tech, n.d. Jun 2, 2016.
Just yesterday, our leader asked for a bit more civility. Do you feel exempt?
No. I have always provided, and wish to assure you, that I will always provide you with the all civility and courtesy you deserve.
#75. To: nolu chan (#73)
Of course Madison knew what they were about, -- but even he, (a slave owner) said that in order to 'sell' the BOR'S to the slave States. Madison shaded/compromised the truth (that the BOR'S applied to States) in order to get the slave States to ratify.
To Madison, ratification was more important than a white 'lie'.
No, --- Madison, the Father of the Constitution, and co-author of the Federalist Papers, told them the truth that the Bill of Rights did not apply to the States. ---- The Supreme Court contained one (1) nominee of Adams, one (1) of Jefferson, two (2) of Madison, two (2) of Monroe, and one (1) of Jackson, when it decided the case of Barron v. Baltimore in 1833. ----- The opinion of the Court was UNANIMOUS. Every Justice in 1833, including those appointed by Madison, agreed with Madison and found that the Bill of Rights did not apply to the States. --- Do tell, were all the Supreme Court Justices still carrying on with your fairy tale of an alleged Madison white lie, or plain outrageous lie to deceive the people into ratifying eight constitutional amendments? ---- Why, 1833, were all the Supreme Court justices perpetuating what you call a white lie by Madison as a Framer of the Bill of Rights? Why did the seven justices unanimously lie in 1833?
Because they were attempting to save the Union by telling the slave States what they insisted hearing. -- It worked, --- for a while.
#77. To: tpaine (#75)
Because they [the UNANIMOUS U.S. SUPREME COURT in Barron v. Baltimore] were attempting to save the Union by telling the slave States what they insisted hearing. -- It worked, --- for a while.
In 1833? You are a fucking idiot. (Actually you just post make believe fiction to be a pain in the ass, but I like to call you a fucking idiot for doing it.)
I suppose that the States, today, are allowed to ignore the 5th Amendment requirement to obtain a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury in order to save the union too. Whatever are they trying to tell the slave states today? You are so full of shit.
Amazingly, after the Civil War, the authors of the Fourteenth Amendment stated that the 14th was needed precisely because the Bill of Rights did not apply to the States.
Indeed, was John Bingham "attempting to save the Union by telling the slave States what they insisted hearing?" In 1871. And why was he so down on the racist assholes on Illinois? Had he read the Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln and discovered what old Abe had actually said?
Bingham sure was clear and specific about the Illinois assholes. But at least he didn't delve into Illinois' 99-year indentured servitude.
Before that [ratification of the 14th Amendment] a State, as in the case of the State of Illinois, could make it a crime punishable by fine and imprisonment for any citizen within her limits, in obedience to the injunction of our divine Master, to help a slave who was ready to perish; to give him shelter, or break with him his crust of bread.
But why was Bingham saying these things in 1871? To perpetuate your myth that Madison lied when he said the BoR did not aply to the States, and the unanimous Supreme Court lied when they said the same thing, as you say, "attempting to save the Union by telling the slave States what they insisted hearing"? Representative John Bingham
Representative John Bingham and Senator Jacob Howard were co-authors of the Fourteenth Amendment.
Cong. Globe, 42nd Cong., 1st Sess. app. 84 (1871)
I answer the gentleman, how I came to change the form of February to the words now in the first section of the fourteenth article of amendment, as they stand, and I trust will forever stand, in the Constitution of my country. I had read—and that is what induced me to attempt to impose by constitutional amendments new limitations upon the power of the States—the great decision of Marshall in Barron vs. the Mayor and City Council of Baltimore, wherein the Chief Justice said, in obedience to his official oath and the Constitution as it then was:"The amendments [to the Constitution] contain no expression indicating an intention to apply them to the State governments. This court cannot so apply them."—7 Peters, p. 250.
In this case the city had taken private property for public use, without compensation as alleged, and there was no redress for the wrong in the Supreme Court of the United States; and only for this reason, the first eight amendments were not limitations on the power of the States.
And so afterward, in the case of the Lessee of Livingston vs. Moore and others, (7 Peters, 652,) the court ruled, "it is now settled that the amendments [to the Constitution] do not extend to the States." They were but limitations upon Congress.
[...]
In reëxamining that case of Barron, Mr. Speaker, after my struggle in the House in February, 1866, to which the gentleman has alluded, I noted and apprehended as I never did before, certain words in that opinion of Marshall. Referring to the first eight articles of amendments to the Constitution of the United States, the Chief Justice said: "Had the framers of these amendments intended them to be limitations on the powers of the State governments they would have imitated the framers of the original Constitution, and have expressed that intention." Barron vs. The Mayor, &c, 7 Peters, 250.
Acting upon this suggestion I did imitate the framers of the original Constitution. As they had said "no State shall emit bills of credit, pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligations of contracts imitating their example and imitating it to the letter, I prepared the provision of the first section of the fourteenth amendment as it stands in the Constitution, as follows:
"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of the citizens of the United States, nor shall any State deprive any person office, liberty, or property without due process of law, nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
I hope the gentleman now knows why I changed the form of the amendment of February, 1866.
Mr. Speaker, that the scope and meaning of the limitations imposed by the first section, fourteenth amendment of the Constitution may be more fully understood, permit me to say that the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States, as contradistinguished from citizens of a State, are chiefly defined in the first eight amendments to the Constitution of the United States. Those eight amendments are as follows:
Article I.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Article II.
A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Article III.
No soldier shall, in time of peace, he quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in the manner to be prescribed by law.
Article IV.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrant shall issue but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized.
Article V.
No person shall be held to answer for a capital or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in eases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb, nor shall be compelled on any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation.
Article VI.
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor; and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
Article VII.
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Article VIII..
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines, imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
These eight articles I have shown never "were limitations upon the power of the States, until made so by the fourteenth amendment. The words of that amendment, "no State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States," are an express prohibition upon every State of the Union, which may be enforced under existing laws of Congress, and such other laws for their better enforcement as Congress may make.
Mr. Speaker, that decision in the fourth of Washington's Circuit Court Reports, to which my learned colleague [Mr. Shellabarger] has referred is only a construction of the second section, fourth article of the original Constitution, to wit, "The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States." In that case the court only held that in civil rights the State could not refuse to extend to citizens of other States the same general rights secured to its own.
In the case of The United States vs. Primrose, Mr. Webster said that—
"For the purposes of trade, it is evidently not in the power of any State to impose any hinderance or embarrassment, &c, upon citizens of other States, or to place them, on coming there, upon a different footing from her own citizens."—6 Webster's Works, 112.
The learned Justice Story declared that—
"The intention of the clause ('the citizens of each State shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States,') was to confer on the citizens of each State a general citizenship, and communicated all the privileges and immunities which a citizen of the same State would be entitled to under the same circumstances." — Story on the Constitution, vol. 2, page 605.
Is it not clear that other and different privileges and immunities than those to which a citizen of a State was entitled are secured by the provision of the fourteenth article, that no State shall abridge the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States, which are defined in the eight articles of amendment, and which were not limitations on the power of the States before the fourteenth amendment made them limitations?
Sir, before the ratification of the fourteenth amendment, the State could deny to any citizen the right of trial by jury, and it was done. Before that the State could abridge the freedom of the press, and it was so done in half of the States of the Union. Before that a State, as in the case of the State of Illinois, could make it a crime punishable by fine and imprisonment for any citizen within her limits, in obedience to the injunction of our divine Master, to help a slave who was ready to perish; to give him shelter, or break with him his crust of bread. The validity of that State restriction upon the rights of conscience and the duty of life was affirmed, to the shame and disgrace of America, in the Supreme Court of the United States; but nevertheless affirmed in obedience to the requirements of the Constitution. (14 Howard, 19-20. Moore vs. The People.)
Under the Constitution as it is, not as it was, and by force of the fourteenth amendment, no State hereafter can imitate the bad example of Illinois, to which I have referred, nor can any State ever repeat the example of Georgia and send men to the penitentiary, as did that State, for teaching the Indian to read the lessons of the New Testament, to know that new evangel, "The pure in heart shall see God."
#79. To: nolu chan (#77)
The UNANIMOUS U.S. SUPREME COURT in Barron v. Baltimore were attempting to save the Union by telling the slave States what they insisted hearing. -- It worked, --- for a while.
In 1833?
You bet, as the question of slavery was a main issue long before the war started. You are a fucking idiot. (Actually you just post make believe fiction to be a pain in the ass, but I like to call you a fucking idiot for doing it.)
I suppose that the States, today, are allowed to ignore the 5th Amendment requirement to obtain a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury in order to save the union too.
You suppose erroneously. It's just not an issue, despite your obsession about it.
Amazingly, after the Civil War, the authors of the Fourteenth Amendment stated that the 14th was needed precisely because the Bill of Rights did not apply to the States.
Yep, that was the common misconception. -- So the 14th was passed, but still weirdos like you kept insisting that States could ignore gun rights, etc. -- We're still trying to educate you socialistic statists, with little success.
Indeed, was John Bingham "attempting to save the Union by telling the slave States what they insisted hearing?" In 1871.
No, he was trying to make sure our individual freedoms were not infringed. -- Clowns like you are still working against that principle.
#83. To: tpaine (#79)
Historical note: The Federalists originally held the presidency, the legislature, and all seats on the Supreme Court. After the Adams administration, the Federalists were thrashed in every election until they went extinct around 1820. In 1833, Marshall was the only justice on the court nominated by a Federalist (Adams). No Washington appointees were left.
CIRCA 1791:
[tpaine #75] Of course Madison knew what they were about, -- but even he, (a slave owner) said that in order to 'sell' the BOR'S to the slave States. Madison shaded/compromised the truth (that the BOR'S applied to States) in order to get the slave States to ratify.
Sometimes you just wonder why did did all that lying but Washington, Jefferson, and Madison didn't just set their slaves free. Maybe we wouldn't have a Declaration of Independence if Jupiter had not kept tom supplied with mint juleps or sweet tea.
CIRCA 1833
[tpaine at #79]
The UNANIMOUS U.S. SUPREME COURT in Barron v. Baltimore were attempting to save the Union by telling the slave States what they insisted hearing. -- It worked, --- for a while.
In 1833?You bet, as the question of slavery was a main issue long before the war started.
TODAY
[tpaine at #79]
I suppose that the States, today, are allowed to ignore the 5th Amendment requirement to obtain a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury in order to save the union too.You suppose erroneously. It's just not an issue, despite your obsession about it.
Because, at this point, what difference does it make! The states can try, convict and sentence to death without a grand jury. Hurtado v California, 110 US 516 (1884)
Of course, the States also ignore the 7th Amendment wholesale, disregarding the Federal requirement for a jury trial in suits at common law (civil suits) where the amount in controversy is more than $20. They have been ignoring that non-requirement for more than two centuries.
THE POST CIVIL WAR ERA
I have quoted John Bingham extensively stating that the original Bill of Rights did not apply to the States, and this was what necessitated the Fourteenth Amendment of which Bingham was a co-author. tpaine seems at a loss to explain whether Bingham was just lying in 1866 and 1872, or it just was not an issue. It seems unlikely he ws lying in 1872 in order to get slave states to ratify anything.
And a fine thing it was, all that worrying about slavery. None of that for Illinois. No, sir. They were civilized. They had ninety-nine year indentured servitude.
http://www.eiu.edu/past_tracker/1818_Indenture_Transcription.pdf
This Indenture made this twenty sixth day of Jane uary one thousand eight hundred and eighteen, between Judith a Negroe Woman about seventeen years of age, last of the Territory of Missouri and County of ___ of the one part, and William Wilson of Pope Coun'ty of Illinois Territory of the other part Witnesseth. That the said Judith for and in consideration of four hundred Dollars Current money of the United States, at or before the signing and Delivery of these presents, the Receipt whereof she doth hereby acknowledge, and in conformity to a law of this Territory, respecting the Introduction of Negroes and Mullatoes into the same, hath put, placed and bound herself to the said William Wilson to serve him during the full Term of ninety nine years from the date hereof; or in other words, from the date hereof until the twenty sixth day of January one thousand nine hundred and seventeen; during all which term the said Judith the said William Wilson shall well and truly serve, and all his lawful commands every where obey, and that she shall not embezel or waste her said Masters Goods, nor lend them to any person without her said Masters leave or consent, nor shall she at any time, absent herself from her said Master,s service without his leave or consent, but as a good and faithful Servant, shall and will at all times demean herself towards her said Master. And the said William Wilson covenants and agrees to and with the said Judith that he will furnish her with good and sufficient Meat Dring lodging and Apparel, together with all other needful Comforts and conveniencies fit for such a Servant during the Term aforesaid. And for the true performance of each of the above Agreements, each of the beforementioned para ties, bind themselves to each other firmly by these presents. In testimony where of the said parties have set their hands and affixed their seals the day and year first above written.
#84. To: nolu chan (#83)
Again. Originally, NONE of the Bill of Rights applied to the States.
Please keep wasting your time posting OPINIONS that buttress your opinion above..
You cannot refute that the Constitution itself clearly says otherwise: ---
"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."
#85. To: tpaine (#84)
Please keep wasting your time posting OPINIONS that buttress your opinion above..
As you wish. And you keep avoiding posting anything that buttresses your bullshit.
Senator Jacob Howard
Representative John Bingham and Senator Jacob Howard were co-authors of the Fourteenth Amendment.
Cong. Globe, 39th Cong., 1st Sess. 2765-66 (1866)
Now, sir, here is a mass of privileges, immunities, and rights, some of them secured by the second section of the fourth article of the Constitution, which I have recited, some by the first eight amendments of the Constitution; and it is a fact well worthy of attention that the course of decision of our courts and the present settled doctrine is, that all these immunities, privileges, rights, thus guarantied by the Constitution or recognized by it, are secured to the citizen solely as a citizen of the United States and as a party in their courts. They do not operate in the slightest degree as a restraint or prohibition upon State legislation. States are not affected by them, and it has been repeatedly held that the restriction contained in the Constitution against the taking of private property for public use without just compensation is not a restriction upon State legislation, but applies only to the legislation of Congress.Now, sir, there is no power given in the Constitution to enforce and to carry out any of these guarantees. They are not powers granted by the Constitution to Congress, and of course do not come within the sweeping clause of the Constitution authorizing Congress to pass all laws necessary and proper for carrying out the foregoing or granted powers, but they stand simply as a bill of rights in the Constitution, without power on the part of Congress to give them full effect; while at the same time the States are not restrained from violating the principles embraced in them except by their own local constitutions, which may be altered from year to year. The great object of the first section of this amendment is, therefore, to restrain the power of the States and compel them at all times to respect these great fundamental guarantees. How will it be done under the present amendment? As I have remarked, they are not powers granted to Congress, and therefore it is necessary, if they are to be effectuated and enforced, as they assuredly ought to be, that additional power should be given to Congress to that end. This is done by the fifth section of this amendment, which declares' that " the Congress shall have power to enforce by appropriate legislation the provisions of this article." Here is a direct affirmative delegation of power to Congress to carry out all the principles of all these guarantees, a power not found in the Constitution.
#86. To: nolu chan (#85)
Please, keep wasting your time posting OPINIONS that buttress your opinion above..
As you wish. And you keep avoiding posting anything that buttresses your bullshit.
I'll repeat my last post, which buttresses my position, which you cannot refute, and is part of our Constitution, NOT bullshit: ---
"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."
#87. To: tpaine (#86)
Please, keep wasting your time posting OPINIONS that buttress your opinion above..
As you wish. And you keep avoiding posting anything that buttresses your bullshit.
Thaddeus Stevens, Congressional Globe, 39th Cong., 1st Sess., Vol. 3, pg. 2459, (May 8, 1866)
Let us now refer to the provisions of the proposed amendment.The first section prohibits the States from abridging the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States, or unlawfully depriving them of life, liberty, or property, or of denying to any person within their jurisdiction the "equal" protection of the laws.
I can hardly believe that any person can be found who will not admit that every one of these provisions is just. They are all asserted, in some form or other, in our Declaration or organic law. But the Constitution limits only the action of Congress, and is not a limitation on the States. This amendment supplies that defect, and allows Congress to correct the unjust legislation of the States, so far that the law which operates upon one man shall operate equally upon all.
#88. To: nolu chan (#87)
Please, keep wasting your time posting OPINIONS that buttress your opinion above..
As you wish. And you keep avoiding posting anything that buttresses your bullshit.
I'll repeat my last post, which buttresses my position, which you cannot refute, and is part of our Constitution, NOT bullshit: ---
"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."
Your reply, quoting the OPINION of Thaddeus Stevens:
--- "But the Constitution limits only the action of Congress, and is not a limitation on the States." ----
Is somehow supposed to refute the constitutional quote I posted?
You reAlly do need rest, as your posting is increasingly bizarro. GET HELP.
#89. To: tpaine (#88)
"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."
As Supremacy Clause pertains to a conflict of laws. As the Bill of Rights originally did not apply to the States, there was no conflict between the inapplicable Bill of Rights and any State laws.
The members of the union are the States (Art. 8). The States ratified the amendments called the Bill of Rights to place clear restraints on the powers of the Federal government. Amendments to the Federal charter, limiting the powers of the Federal government, do not apply to the States. The Bill of Rights limits and restrains Federal power, it does not contain any grant or authorization of Federal power.
You can keep quoting the Supremacy Clause, but in the context of the original Bill of Rights and State law, it did not do amything, as it created no conflict of laws. When the First Amendment says, "Congress shall pass no law," it speaks to the Federal Congress only. That is why 225 years of American court opinions unanimously say you are full of shit and do not know what you are talking about.
Armstrong v. Exceptional Child Ctr., Inc., 135 S.Ct. 1378 (2015)
12 The Supremacy Clause, Art. VI, cl. 2, reads:“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.”
It is apparent that this Clause creates a rule of decision: Courts “shall” regard the “Constitution,” and all laws “made in Pursuance thereof,” as “the supreme Law of the Land.” They must not give effect to state laws that conflict with federal laws. Gibbons v. Ogden, 9 Wheat. 1, 210, 6 L.Ed. 23 (1824). It is equally apparent that the Supremacy Clause is not the “ ‘source of any federal rights,’ ” Golden State Transit Corp. v. Los Angeles, 493 U.S. 103, 107, 110 S.Ct. 444, 107 L.Ed.2d 420 (1989) (quoting Chapman v. Houston Welfare Rights Organization, 441 U.S. 600, 613, 99 S.Ct. 1905, 60 L.Ed.2d 508 (1979)), and certainly does not create a cause of action. It instructs courts what to do when state and federal law clash, but is silent regarding who may enforce federal laws in court, and in what circumstances they may do so.
#90. To: nolu chan (#89)
The Supremacy Clause, Art. VI, cl. 2, reads:
“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.”
It is apparent that this Clause creates a rule of decision:
A "rule of decision"? --- Who in hell made up that OPINION? And why should I care?
Courts “shall” regard the “Constitution,” and all laws “made in Pursuance thereof,” as “the supreme Law of the Land.” They must not give effect to state laws that conflict with federal laws.
You are paraphrasing the words as written to make another OPINION, --- You really can't help yourself, can you....
---- It instructs courts what to do when state and federal law clash, but is silent regarding who may enforce federal laws in court, and in what circumstances they may do so.
You're simply making up more opinions on what the supremacy clause means. -- Its apparent you can't stop this inane form of argument.
As Supremacy Clause pertains to a conflict of laws. As the Bill of Rights originally did not apply to the States, there was no conflict between the inapplicable Bill of Rights and any State laws.
You're assuming the BOR'S is "inapplicable"? -- More bizarro reasoning.
The members of the union are the States (Art. 8). The States ratified the amendments called the Bill of Rights to place clear restraints on the powers of the Federal government.
Yep, and to also protect our rights from all infringements. -- By anyone...
Amendments to the Federal charter, limiting the powers of the Federal government, do not apply to the States.
There you go again, putting out your opinion as fact. -- It's become a mania.
The Bill of Rights limits and restrains Federal power, it does not contain any grant or authorization of Federal power.
That and more, it limits infringements of our rights from all types of power.
You can keep quoting the Supremacy Clause, but in the context of the original Bill of Rights and State law, it did not do amything, as it created no conflict of laws. When the First Amendment says, "Congress shall pass no law," it speaks to the Federal Congress only. That is why 225 years of American court opinions unanimously say you are full of shit and do not know what you are talking about.
The fact that the first specifies congress, --- does not mean that others can infringe on our rights.
In your opinion, they can.. Your opinion is one long held by STATISTS of every stripe. Feel proud?
#93. To: tpaine (#90)
Araya v JPMorgan Chase Bank, NA, 775 F3d 409, 414-15 (DC Cir 2014)
Araya's Fifth Amendment claim against Chase and Shapiro & Burson is insufficient to sustain jurisdiction because it has been foreclosed by the Supreme Court. See Steel Co., 523 U.S. at 89, 118 S.Ct. 1003. It is beyond dispute that the Fifth Amendment “appl[ies] to and restrict[s] only the Federal Government and not private persons.” Pub. Utils. Comm'n of D.C. v. Pollak, 343 U.S. 451, 461, 72 S.Ct. 813, 96 L.Ed. 1068 (1952); see also San Francisco Arts & Athletics, Inc. v. U.S. Olympic Committee, 483 U.S. 522, 542, 107 S.Ct. 2971, 97 L.Ed.2d 427 (1987) (“The fundamental inquiry is whether the USOC is a governmental actor to whom the prohibitions of [the Fifth Amendment] apply.”); Corrigan v. Buckley, 271 U.S. 323, 330, 46 S.Ct. 521, 70 L.Ed. 969 (1926) (“The Fifth Amendment is a limitation only upon the powers of the General Government and is not directed against the action of individuals.”) (citations omitted) (internal quotation marks omitted); Barron v. Baltimore, 32 U.S. 243, 250–51, 7 Pet. 243, 8 L.Ed. 672 (1833) (“[T]he fifth amendment to the constitution ... is intended solely as a limitation on the exercise of power by the government of the United States.”). There is no plausible argument that either Chase or Shapiro & Burson is a governmental actor, and indeed Araya's complaint does not even allege that either defendant is a governmental actor. The Fifth Amendment claim is thus an insufficient basis for federal subject matter jurisdiction. Understandably, the District Court did not rely upon the takings claim as a basis for jurisdiction when it denied Araya's request to remand, and it later granted the motion to dismiss that claim.
#97. To: nolu chan (#93)
It is beyond dispute that the Fifth Amendment “appl[ies] to and restrict[s] only the Federal Government and not private persons.”
More desperate opinion, that proves nothing.
Ho hum..
#100. To: tpaine (#97)
It is beyond dispute that the Fifth Amendment “appl[ies] to and restrict[s] only the Federal Government and not private persons.”More desperate opinion, that proves nothing.
Ho hum..
Actually, I quoted the opinion of the Court, so fuck you.
I will keep citing and quoting as there is no end of court opinions which say you are full of shit. With 225 years of opinions to work with, it is obvious that you cannot quote a single one that says the Bill of Rights applies to and restricts the States. The quoted opinion is from 2014. The Fourteenth Amendment applies to the States, and so much of the Bill of Rights which has been incorporated into the Fourteenth Amendment applies to the States via the Fourteenth Amendment.
Have another court opinion saying you are full of shit.
Parker v. D.C., 478 F.3d 370 (D.C. Cir. 2007)
When adopted, the Bill of Rights protected individuals only against the federal government. See, e.g., Barron v. City of Baltimore 32 U.S. 243, 247, 7 Pet. 243, 8 L.Ed. 672 (1833). Under the "incorporation" doctrine, however, "many of the rights guaranteed by the first eight Amendments to the Constitution have been held [by the Supreme Court] to be protected against state action by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment." Duncan v. Louisiana, 391 U.S. 145, 149, 88 S.Ct. 1444, 20 L.Ed.2d 491 (1968)
Thank you for participating in the creation of this thread to document your stupid assholery and to serve as a monument to the same.
#102. To: nolu chan (#100)
You continue posting Scalia's OPINIONS.
They prove nothing in our debate, except your maniac/statist desperation.
Actually, I posted a majority Opinion of the United States Supreme Court, and the holding is the law of the land. Deal with it.
Majority opinion holdings are NOT the law of the land. Only our Constitution holds that distinction.--- Deal with it.
It is beyond dispute that the Fifth Amendment “appl[ies] to and restrict[s] only the Federal Government and not private persons.”
More desperate opinion, that proves nothing.
Ho hum..
Actually, I quoted the opinion of the Court, so fuck you.
How often must you be told, opinions do not affect our Constitution. And your foul mouth won't change it either, punk.
I will keep citing and quoting as there is no end of court opinions which say you are full of shit. With 225 years of opinions to work with, it is obvious that you cannot quote a single one that says the Bill of Rights applies to and restricts the States.
I don't quote court opinions, I cited our Constitution, [Art VI] which it's obvious you hate.
Get lost... -- Or continue to make a punk fool of yourself. -- I'm indifferent to your foul idiocies.
#103. To: tpaine (#102)
I don't quote court opinions, I cited our Constitution, [Art VI] which it's obvious you hate.
What is obvious is that you do not understand Article VI any better than you understand the rest of the Constitution.
I quoted court opinions about the Supremacy Clause and it is obvious you hate the truth.
The Supremacy Clause pertains to a conflict of laws. The the Bill of Rights originally did not apply to the States, there was no conflict between the inapplicable Bill of Rights and any State laws.
The members of the union are the States (Art. 8). The States ratified the amendments called the Bill of Rights to place clear restraints on the powers of the Federal government. Amendments to the Federal charter, limiting the powers of the Federal government, do not apply to the States. The Bill of Rights limits and restrains Federal power, it does not contain any grant or authorization of Federal power.
You can keep quoting the Supremacy Clause, but in the context of the original Bill of Rights and State law, it did not do anything, as it created no conflict of laws. When the First Amendment says, "Congress shall pass no law," it speaks to the Federal Congress only. That is why 225 years of American court opinions unanimously say you are full of shit and do not know what you are talking about.
Armstrong v. Exceptional Child Ctr., Inc., 135 S.Ct. 1378 (2015), Opinion of the Court by Scalia, J.
Idiot tpaine thinking he is responding to nolu chan:
[SCALIA] The Supremacy Clause, Art. VI, cl. 2, reads:“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.”
It is apparent that this Clause creates a rule of decision:
[tpaine #90] A "rule of decision"? --- Who in hell made up that OPINION? And why should I care?
[nc] Antonin Scalia "made up that Opinion," and you should care because he did it as an Associate Justice writing a majority opinion of the U.S. Supreme court.
[nc] "It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is. Those who apply the rule to particular cases must, of necessity, expound and interpret that rule. If two laws conflict with each other, the courts must decide on the operation of each." Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. (1 Cranch) 137; 2 L. Ed. 60 (1803).
[SCALIA] Courts “shall” regard the “Constitution,” and all laws “made in Pursuance thereof,” as “the supreme Law of the Land.” They must not give effect to state laws that conflict with federal laws.[tpaine #90] You are paraphrasing the words as written to make another OPINION, --- You really can't help yourself, can you....
[nc] Scalia was not was writing a majority Opinion of the U.S. Supreme Court.
[SCALIA] ---- It instructs courts what to do when state and federal law clash, but is silent regarding who may enforce federal laws in court, and in what circumstances they may do so.[tpaine #90] You're simply making up more opinions on what the supremacy clause means. -- Its apparent you can't stop this inane form of argument.
[nc] Justice Scalia was writing a majority Opinion of the U.S. Supreme Court pertaining to what the supremacy clause means. It speaks loudly of your intellect that you find his form of argument to be inane.
As for the Bill of Rights, here is another court opinion, there are lots and lots and lots of them.
Flaskamp v Dearborn Public Schools, 385 F.3d 935 (6th Cir. 2004)
Over time, the Supreme Court has construed the substantive component of the Due Process Clause to protect two types of "liberty." It incorporates most of the guarantees of the Bill of Rights — which originally restricted only the Federal Government, see Barron v. Baltimore, 32 U.S. 243, 247, 7 Pet. 243, 8 L.Ed. 672 (1833) — and protects these rights from state infringement. And it protects other "fundamental rights" not expressly mentioned in the Bill of Rights but "implicit in the concept of ordered liberty,"
#104. To: nolu chan (#103)
It is beyond dispute that the Fifth Amendment “appl[ies] to and restrict[s] only the Federal Government and not private persons.”
More desperate court opinion, that proves nothing.
Ho hum..
Actually, I quoted the opinion of the Court, so fuck you.
How often must you be told, opinions do not affect our Constitution. And your foul mouth won't change it either, punk.
I will keep citing and quoting as there is no end of court opinions which say you are full of shit. With 225 years of opinions to work with, it is obvious that you cannot quote a single one that says the Bill of Rights applies to and restricts the States.
I don't quote court opinions, as they prove nothing. ---- I cited our Constitution, [Art VI] which it's obvious you hate.
Get lost... -- Or continue to make a punk fool of yourself. -- I'm indifferent to your foul idiocies.
What is obvious is that you do not understand Article VI any better than you understand the rest of the Constitution.
No, it's obvious that you will continue to insist in making a fool of yourself, repeating opinions that prove nothing.
Continue if you must, and I will continue to comment and to laugh at your foolish behavior.
#105. To: tpaine (#104)
I don't quote court opinions, as they prove nothing. ---- I cited our Constitution, [Art VI] which it's obvious you hate.
"It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is. Those who apply the rule to particular cases must, of necessity, expound and interpret that rule. If two laws conflict with each other, the courts must decide on the operation of each." Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. (1 Cranch) 137; 2 L. Ed. 60 (1803).
Court opinions show what the law is, as opposed to what tpaine wants it to be.
As for the Bill of Rights, here is another court opinion, there are lots and lots and lots of them.
Stevenson v Lewis, 384 F.3d 1069 (9th Cir. 2004)
The vicinage clause of the Sixth Amendment guarantees an accused "the right to a . . . jury of the . . . district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law." U.S. Const. amend. VI. At the time of its adoption, the Sixth Amendment, like the rest of the Bill of Rights, applied only to the federal government and therefore only to federal prosecutions. Cf. Barron v. Baltimore, 32 U.S. 243, 247, 250-51, 7 Pet. 243, 8 L.Ed. 672 (1833). However, the Fourteenth Amendment Due Process Clause extended certain rights guaranteed by the Bill of Rights to protection against state action. See Duncan v. Louisiana, 391 U.S. 145, 147-48, 88 S.Ct. 1444, 20 L.Ed.2d 491 (1968). Not all of the rights guaranteed by the Sixth Amendment were incorporated; rather, only those rights that are "fundamental to the American scheme of justice" or "essential to a fair trial" apply to the states. Id. at 148-49, 88 S.Ct. 1444.The Supreme Court has not decided whether the Fourteenth Amendment incorporated the Sixth Amendment's vicinage right. Neither have we. The only circuits to squarely address the issue have concluded that the Fourteenth Amendment did not extend federal vicinage protection to the states. See Caudill v. Scott, 857 F.2d 344, 345-46 (6th Cir. 1988); Cook v. Morrill, 783 F.2d 593, 594-96 (5th Cir. 1986); Zicarelli v. Dietz, 633 F.2d 312, 320-26 (3rd Cir. 1980). Most state courts to address the issue have likewise held that the vicinage clause does not apply to the states.
What is obvious is that you do not understand Article VI any better than you understand the rest of the Constitution.
I quoted court opinions about the Supremacy Clause and it is obvious you hate the truth.
The Supremacy Clause pertains to a conflict of laws. The the Bill of Rights originally did not apply to the States, there was no conflict between the inapplicable Bill of Rights and any State laws.
The members of the union are the States (Art. 8). The States ratified the amendments called the Bill of Rights to place clear restraints on the powers of the Federal government. Amendments to the Federal charter, limiting the powers of the Federal government, do not apply to the States. The Bill of Rights limits and restrains Federal power, it does not contain any grant or authorization of Federal power.
You can keep quoting the Supremacy Clause, but in the context of the original Bill of Rights and State law, it did not do anything, as it created no conflict of laws. When the First Amendment says, "Congress shall pass no law," it speaks to the Federal Congress only. That is why 225 years of American court opinions unanimously say you are full of shit and do not know what you are talking about.
Armstrong v. Exceptional Child Ctr., Inc., 135 S.Ct. 1378 (2015), Opinion of the Court by Scalia, J.
Idiot tpaine thinking he is responding to nolu chan:
[SCALIA] The Supremacy Clause, Art. VI, cl. 2, reads:“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.”
It is apparent that this Clause creates a rule of decision:
[tpaine #90] A "rule of decision"? --- Who in hell made up that OPINION? And why should I care?
[nc] Antonin Scalia "made up that Opinion," and you should care because he did it as an Associate Justice writing a majority opinion of the U.S. Supreme court.
[SCALIA] Courts “shall” regard the “Constitution,” and all laws “made in Pursuance thereof,” as “the supreme Law of the Land.” They must not give effect to state laws that conflict with federal laws.[tpaine #90] You are paraphrasing the words as written to make another OPINION, --- You really can't help yourself, can you....
[nc] Scalia was writing a majority Opinion of the U.S. Supreme Court.
[SCALIA] ---- It instructs courts what to do when state and federal law clash, but is silent regarding who may enforce federal laws in court, and in what circumstances they may do so.[tpaine #90] You're simply making up more opinions on what the supremacy clause means. -- Its apparent you can't stop this inane form of argument.
[nc] Justice Scalia was writing a majority Opinion of the U.S. Supreme Court pertaining to what the supremacy clause means. It speaks loudly of your intellect that you find his form of argument to be inane.
#106. To: nolu chan (#105)
Get lost... -- Or continue to make a punk fool of yourself. -- I'm indifferent to your foul idiocies.
What is obvious is that you do not understand Article VI any better than you understand the rest of the Constitution.
No, it's obvious that you will continue to insist in making a fool of yourself, repeating opinions that prove nothing.
Continue if you must, and I will continue to comment and to laugh at your foolish behavior.
---- I cited our Constitution, [Art VI] which it's obvious you hate.
"It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is. Those who apply the rule to particular cases must, of necessity, expound and interpret that rule. If two laws conflict with each other, the courts must decide on the operation of each."
Yep --- Within the bounds of Constitutional restraints, which restraints include Art VI.. --- Thus, if a State law conflicts with the 2nd Amendment, -- the courts must decide on the supremacy of the Constitution.
#108. To: tpaine (#106)
No, it's obvious that you will continue to insist in making a fool of yourself, repeating opinions that prove nothing.
"It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is. Those who apply the rule to particular cases must, of necessity, expound and interpret that rule. If two laws conflict with each other, the courts must decide on the operation of each." Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. (1 Cranch) 137; 2 L. Ed. 60 (1803).
Court opinions show what the law is, as opposed to what tpaine wwants it to be.
What is obvious is that you do not understand Article VI any better than you understand the rest of the Constitution.
I quoted court opinions about the Supremacy Clause and it is obvious you hate the truth.
The Supremacy Clause pertains to a conflict of laws. The the Bill of Rights originally did not apply to the States, there was no conflict between the inapplicable Bill of Rights and any State laws.
The members of the union are the States (Art. 8). The States ratified the amendments called the Bill of Rights to place clear restraints on the powers of the Federal government. Amendments to the Federal charter, limiting the powers of the Federal government, do not apply to the States. The Bill of Rights limits and restrains Federal power, it does not contain any grant or authorization of Federal power.
You can keep quoting the Supremacy Clause, but in the context of the original Bill of Rights and State law, it did not do anything, as it created no conflict of laws. When the First Amendment says, "Congress shall pass no law," it speaks to the Federal Congress only. That is why 225 years of American court opinions unanimously say you are full of shit and do not know what you are talking about.
Armstrong v. Exceptional Child Ctr., Inc., 135 S.Ct. 1378 (2015), Opinion of the Court by Scalia, J.
Idiot tpaine thinking he is responding to nolu chan:
[SCALIA] The Supremacy Clause, Art. VI, cl. 2, reads:[tpaine #90] A "rule of decision"? --- Who in hell made up that OPINION? And why should I care?“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.”
It is apparent that this Clause creates a rule of decision:
[nc] Antonin Scalia "made up that Opinion," and you should care because he did it as an Associate Justice writing a majority opinion of the U.S. Supreme court.
[SCALIA] Courts “shall” regard the “Constitution,” and all laws “made in Pursuance thereof,” as “the supreme Law of the Land.” They must not give effect to state laws that conflict with federal laws.[tpaine #90] You are paraphrasing the words as written to make another OPINION, --- You really can't help yourself, can you....
[nc] Scalia was writing a majority Opinion of the U.S. Supreme Court.
[SCALIA] ---- It instructs courts what to do when state and federal law clash, but is silent regarding who may enforce federal laws in court, and in what circumstances they may do so.[tpaine #90] You're simply making up more opinions on what the supremacy clause means. -- Its apparent you can't stop this inane form of argument.
[nc] Justice Scalia was writing a majority Opinion of the U.S. Supreme Court pertaining to what the supremacy clause means. It speaks loudly of your intellect that you find his form of argument to be inane.
As for the Bill of Rights, here is another court opinion, there are lots and lots and lots of them.
Montañez v. State Ins. Fund, 91 F.Supp.3d 291 (D.P.R. 2015)
The Fifth Amendment's Due Process right stems from the following provision: “[n]o person shall be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law ...” U.S. Const. amend. V. However, the Supreme Court interpreted the first ten amendments of the constitution (the Bill of Rights) to be enforceable only against the federal government. Barron v. City of Baltimore, 32 U.S. 243, 7 Pet. 243, 8 L.Ed. 672 (1833) (“The constitution was ordained and established by the people of the United States for themselves, for their own government, and not for the government of the individual states.”). Subsequently, the Fourteenth Amendment—which contains its own Due Process clause—was enacted. The Fourteenth Amendment provides that “[n]o state shall ... deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.” (emphasis provided). U.S. Const. amend. XIV, § 1.
#110. To: nolu chan (#108)
When the Supreme Court interpreted the first ten amendments of the constitution (the Bill of Rights) to be enforceable only against the federal government in Barron v. City of Baltimore, -- it eventually became necessary to enact the Fourteenth Amendment.
The Fourteenth Amendment provides that “[n]o state shall ... deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.” U.S. Const. amend. XIV, § 1.
Needless to say, the property involved includes arms, and the liberty involves the right to bear arms, without infringements by ANY level of government.
#112. To: tpaine (#110)
When the Supreme Court interpreted the first ten amendments of the constitution (the Bill of Rights) to be enforceable only against the federal government in Barron v. City of Baltimore, -- it eventually became necessary to enact the Fourteenth Amendment.The Fourteenth Amendment provides that “[n]o state shall ... deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.” U.S. Const. amend. XIV, § 1.
Needless to say, the property involved includes arms, and the liberty involves the right to bear arms, without infringements by ANY level of government.
What a load of horseshit.
The Supreme Court never interpreted the first eight amendments to apply to the States, and Barron was in 1833.
The 14th Amendment was a power grab in the post-Civil War era. That power grab has continued until the the Federal government can tell the girls to shower with the boys, and the boys to shower with the girls, and you approve of the power grab.
As Justice Harlan said in his opinion in Duncan v. Lousiana,
I believe I am correct in saying that every member of the Court for at least the last 135 years has agreed that our Founders did not consider the requirements of the Bill of Rights so fundamental that they should operate directly against the States.[2] They were wont to believe rather that the security of liberty in America rested primarily upon the dispersion of governmental power across a federal system.[3] The Bill of Rights was considered unnecessary by some[4] but insisted upon by others in order to curb the possibility of abuse of power by the strong central government they were creating.[5]
2. Barron v. Baltimore, 7 Pet. 243 (1833), held that the first eight Amendments restricted only federal action.3. The locus classicus for this viewpoint is The Federalist No. 51 (Madison).
4. The Bill of Rights was opposed by Hamilton and other proponents of a strong central government. See The Federalist No. 84; see generally C. Rossiter, 1787: The Grand Convention 284, 302-303.
5. In Barron v. Baltimore, supra, at 250, Chief Justice Marshall said, "These amendments demanded security against the apprehended encroachments of the general government — not against those of the local governments."
The Civil War Amendments dramatically altered the relation of the Federal Government to the States. The first section of the Fourteenth Amendment imposes highly significant restrictions on state action. But the restrictions are couched in very broad and general terms: citizenship; privileges and immunities; due process of law; equal protection of the laws. Consequently, for 100 years this Court has been engaged in the difficult process Professor Jaffe has well called "the search for intermediate premises."[6] The question has been, Where does the Court properly look to find the specific rules that define and give content to such terms as "life, liberty, or property" and "due process of law"?
6. Jaffe, Was Brandeis an Activist? The Search for Intermediate Premises, 80 Harv. L. Rev. 986 (1967).A few members of the Court have taken the position that the intention of those who drafted the first section of the Fourteenth Amendment was simply, and exclusively, to make the provisions of the first eight Amendments applicable to state action.[7] This view has never been accepted by this Court.
7. See Adamson v. California, 332 U.S. 46, 71 (dissenting opinion of BLACK, J.); O'Neil v. Vermont, 144 U.S. 323, 366, 370 (dissenting opinion of Harlan, J.) (1892); H. Black, "Due Process of Law," in A Constitutional Faith 23 (1968).
#113. To: nolu chan (#112)
The Fourteenth Amendment provides that “[n]o state shall ... deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.” U.S. Const. amend. XIV, § 1.
Needless to say, the property involved includes arms, and the liberty involves the right to bear arms, without infringements by ANY level of government.
What a load of horseshit.
That's it.. That's all you've been saying for over 100 posts, along with posting volumes of court opinions, opinions that do NOT affect our right to bear arms.
Please continue making a fool of yourself..
#114. To: tpaine (#113)
The Fourteenth Amendment provides that “[n]o state shall ... deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.” U.S. Const. amend. XIV, § 1.
This is one sorry attempt to rewrite the history of your demonstrated assholery.
You have been arguing that the original Bill of Rights applied to the States before the 14th Amendment. See your #49, #107 et al.
At #107, you quoted a Georgia state court decision, Nunn v. State, 1 Kelly 243 (Ga. 1846), that, "The language of the second amendment is broad enough to embrace both Federal and State governments--nor is there anything in its terms which restricts its meaning." You concluded, "The above, quoted from Nunn, destroys your position that prior to the 14th, that there was NO opinion that the 2nd Amendment applied to the States."
Of course, I have never claimed that there was no opinion that claimed the 2nd Amendment applied to the States, and you have been unable to cite any such claim by me.
I have been citing and quoting the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Barron v. Mayor & City Council of Baltimore, 32 U.S. 243 (1833) since #23:
But it is universally understood, it is a part of the history of the day, that the great revolution which established the Constitution of the United States was not effected without immense opposition. Serious fears were extensively entertained that those powers which the patriot statesmen who then watched over the interests of our country deemed essential to union, and to the attainment of those invaluable objects for which union was sought, might be exercised in a manner dangerous to liberty. In almost every convention by which the Constitution was adopted, amendments to guard against the abuse of power were recommended. These amendments demanded security against the apprehended encroachments of the General Government -- not against those of the local governments. In compliance with a sentiment thus generally expressed, to quiet fears thus extensively entertained, amendments were proposed by the required majority in Congress and adopted by the States. These amendments contain no expression indicating an intention to apply them to the State governments. This court cannot so apply them.
Your assinine and assi-ten response at #25 (and repeated thereafter) was, "This SCOTUS opinion is not definitive, and does not change the clear words of our Constitution, which has always applied to the States, except where specifically noted."
At #49 (and after) you stated, "The 2nd has always applied to the States, -- the 'incorporation' bull has just been used by statists to avoid compliance."
In #112, to which you are now nominally responding, I provided an opinion of Justice Harlan.
Opinion of Justice Harlan, 391 U.S. 171 (1968)
I believe I am correct in saying that every member of the Court for at least the last 135 years has agreed that our Founders did not consider the requirements of the Bill of Rights so fundamental that they should operate directly against the States.
That was 1968, 135 years after Barron v. Baltmore was handed down in 1833. In 2016, Barron now 183 continuous years of federal affirmation.
Of course, Vidal v. Garcia-Padilla, proved that Barron v. Baltimore shows that Barron was still good law, and citable as precedent in 2016. There are thousands of federal court opinions to show Barron has been so cited since 1833.
Vidal v. Garcia-Padilla, CIVIL NO. 14-1253 (PG) (D.P.R. Mar 08, 2016)
B. The Doctrine of Selective IncorporationAt the time of its adoption in 1871, [sic - 1791] the Bill of Rights — and, particularly, the individual liberties secured within it — did not apply against the States. See Barron ex rel. Tiernan v. Baltimore, 32 U.S. 243, 250 (1833)(noting that the amendments found in the Bill of Rights "contain no expression indicating an intention to apply them to the State governments"); Lessee of Livingston v. Moore, 32 U.S. 469, 551-552 (1833)(same). Nevertheless, in the aftermath of the Civil War, the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution was adopted to protect certain individual rights from interference by the States. And thereafter, the Supreme Court began using that Amendment's Due Process Clause to "incorporate" a number of the individual liberties found in the first ten Amendments against the States
You have dissed Justice Antonin Scalia.
Armstrong v. Exceptional Child Ctr., Inc., 135 S.Ct. 1378 (2015), Opinion of the Court by Scalia, J.
Idiot tpaine #90 thinking he is responding to nolu chan:
[SCALIA] The Supremacy Clause, Art. VI, cl. 2, reads:“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.”
It is apparent that this Clause creates a rule of decision:
[tpaine #90] A "rule of decision"? --- Who in hell made up that OPINION? And why should I care?
[nc] Antonin Scalia "made up that Opinion," and you should care because he did it as an Associate Justice writing a majority opinion of the U.S. Supreme court.
[SCALIA] Courts “shall” regard the “Constitution,” and all laws “made in Pursuance thereof,” as “the supreme Law of the Land.” They must not give effect to state laws that conflict with federal laws.[tpaine #90] You are paraphrasing the words as written to make another OPINION, --- You really can't help yourself, can you....
[nc] Scalia was writing a majority Opinion of the U.S. Supreme Court.
[SCALIA] ---- It instructs courts what to do when state and federal law clash, but is silent regarding who may enforce federal laws in court, and in what circumstances they may do so.[tpaine #90] You're simply making up more opinions on what the supremacy clause means. -- Its apparent you can't stop this inane form of argument.
[nc] Justice Scalia was writing a majority Opinion of the U.S. Supreme Court pertaining to what the supremacy clause means. It speaks loudly of your intellect that you find his form of argument to be inane.
You have dissed Chief Justice Marshall with a non-responsive ad hominem attack:
#14. To: misterwhite, Y'ALL (#13)Mr. Chief Justice MARSHALL delivered the opinion of the court."Lest we forget, John Marshall was one of the Founding Fathers. He would know what he's talking about.
misterwhite
John Marshall was a founding father who insisted that States could ignore our individual rights as outlined in the Constitution.
And lest we forget, misterwhite insists that States can ignore our right to bear arms.
Can you name a single Supreme Court justice in the past 183 years, preferably who opined on the issue, whose court opinions are worthy of your respect?
Remember what you claimed and forget your attempt to rewrite history, you sorry sack of shit.
tpaine #49:
The 2nd has always applied to the States, -- the 'incorporation' bull has just been used by statists to avoid compliance.
#115. To: nolu chan (#114)
Today's slaughter in Orlando should make you rethink your support for States having the power to ignore our 2nd Amendment rights, -- in that 50 people died, unable to defend themselves.
But I know you won't. --- Be ashamed.
#116. To: tpaine, yukon, but i repeat myself (#115)
Today's slaughter in Orlando should make you rethink your support for States having the power to ignore our 2nd Amendment rights, -- in that 50 people died, unable to defend themselves.
Factually stating the law as it actually exists, rather than spouting ridiculous bullshit as you do, neither supports nor oppose a law.
You should rethink your support for the 14th Amendment which provides a basis for Federally enforced gay marriage and boys showering with girls, and girls showering with boys. But why should yukon/tpaine object to that?
You are obviously desperate to change the topic of conversation as you have no answers for your predicament.
Your #114 did not respond to #113.
Can you name a single Supreme Court justice in the past 183 years, preferably who opined on the issue, whose court opinions are worthy of your respect?
It appears you cannot. Not one Supreme Court justice can equal your legal expertise and meet your standards. And you can't just pick one at random because you do not know what they said.
Because of your bad case of arseface,
I understand you are trying to figure out if I shoved your bullshit down your throat or up your ass.
And you are still hiding from #40
#40. To: tpaine (#39)Read below: --- "on a presentment or indictment".Read below: --- "on a presentment or indictment"
Read again stupid: "Amendment V No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury,"
States use neither a presentment nor an indictment of a grand jury.
A grand jury is required for a Federal felony prosecution but not for a State prosecution. Get your head out of your ass.
Learn what a presentment is dumbshit.
Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Edition
Presentment. The written notice taken by a grand jury of any offense, from their own knowledge or observation without any bill of indictment laid before them at the suit of the government. A presentment is an accusation, initiated by the grand jury itself, and in effect instruction that an indictment be drawn. U.S. v. Briggs, C.A.Fla., 514 F.2d 794, 804. A written accusation of crime made and returned by the grand jury upon its own initiative in the exercise of its lawful inquisitorial powers, is in the form of a bill of indictment, and in practice is signed individually by all the grand jurors who return it. See State v. Hudson, 487 Tenn.Cr.Ap S.W.2d 672, 674. See also Indictment; Information; Presenter.
States don't ignore it; -- they are empowered to use their own version of 'a presentment'.Perhaps you should take a remedial course in reading comprehension?
No, you are too ignorant of the law to know what a presentment is, and too lazy to look up a legal term you do not know. You blather on only to prove to the world that you have no clue what you are talking about.
For a major Federal crime, a grand jury is mandatory per the 5th Amendment. For a State prosecution is is not, depending on State law. Most states use an information, with no grand jury presentment or indictment involved, as no grand jury is involved.
How can that be if the 5th Amendment applies to the States?
*** C R I C K E T S *** IGNORED at #43, #51, #56, and #59.
Were you are too ignorant of the law to know what a presentment is?
Were you too lazy to look up a legal term you do not know?
Were you both too lazy and ignorant to understand the legal term presentment?
And I might as well give you another quote from a Framer of the 14th Amendment destroys your bullshit that the Bill of Rights always applied to the States.
John Bingham, co-author of the 14th Amendment, Congressional Globe, 40th Cong, 1st Sess, Jan 14, 1868, pp 514-15:
We say to those States: " Before you send Representatives to this Hall you must accept the decree which twenty-three States of this Union have already solemnly ratified, declaring that no State of this Union shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States, nor shall any State deny to any person the equal protection of the laws."[...]
There is not an intelligent man in America but knows that this spirit and intent of the Constitution was most flagrantly violated long anterior to the rebellion, and that the Government was powerless to remedy it by law. That amendment proposes hereafter that this great wrong shall be remedied by putting a limitation expressly into the Constitution, coupled with a grant of power to enforce it by law, so that when either Ohio or South Carolina or any other State shall in its madness or its folly refuse to the gentleman or his children or to me or to mine any of the rights which pertain to American citizenship or to a common humanity, there will be redress for the wrong through the power and majesty of American law.
Which proves that tpaine is not an intelligent man.
#117. To: nolu chan (#116)
You're becoming more and more desperate, and thus amusing. Youve been trying to change the subject from guns to gay rights: --
You should rethink your support for the 14th Amendment which provides a basis for Federally enforced gay marriage and boys showering with girls, and girls showering with boys. But why should yukon/tpaine object to that?
Then you follow up with this howler:
You are obviously desperate to change the topic of conversation as you have no answers for your predicament.
I'm in no predicament, you are, --- in that you've failed to explain WHY you support the power of States to ignore our rights to bear arms.
#118. To: tpaine, yukon, but i repeat myself (#117)
You're becoming more and more desperate, and thus amusing. Youve been trying to change the subject from guns to gay rights: --
You should rethink your support for the 14th Amendment which provides a basis for Federally enforced gay marriage and boys showering with girls, and girls showering with boys. But why should yukon/tpaine object to that?
Your support for the extremely Statist 14th Amendment and its massive transfier of power to create the all-powerful Federal leviathan that can order the States to do such things is what is amusing.
Then you follow up with this howler:
You are obviously desperate to change the topic of conversation as you have no answers for your predicament.
Your inability to defend your bullshit is amusing. It is fun to watch you squirm in the manner of a dishonorable asshole.
#119. To: nolu Chan, but i repeat myself (#118)
Yes, you do, because you are desperate and obsessive.
But don't let me stop the fun. --- Continue if you please.
#121. To: tpaine (#119)
But don't let me stop the fun. --- Continue if you please.
tpaine in review
tpaine at 20: "This SCOTUS opinion [McDonald quoting Barron v Baltimore] is not definitive, and does not change the clear words of our Constitution, which has always applied to the States, except where specifically noted."tpaine at 25: "This SCOTUS opinion [Barron v. Baltimore] is not definitive, and does not change the clear words of our Constitution, which has always applied to the States, except where specifically noted."
Cooper v Aaron, 358 US 1 (1958):
Article VI of the Constitution makes the Constitution the “supreme Law of the Land.” In 1803, Chief Justice Marshall, speaking for a unanimous Court, referring to the Constitution as “the fundamental and paramount law of the nation,” declared in the notable case of Marbury v. Madison, 1 Cranch 137, 177, that “It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is.” This decision declared the basic principle that the federal judiciary is supreme in the exposition of the law of the Constitution, and that principle has ever since been respected by this Court and the Country as a permanent and indispensable feature of our constitutional system. It follows that the interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment enunciated by this Court in the Brown case is the supreme law of the land, and Art. VI of the Constitution makes it of binding effect on the States “any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.” Every state legislator and executive and judicial officer is solemnly committed by oath taken pursuant to Art. VI, cl. 3, “to support this Constitution.”
tpaine at 29: "States don't ignore it; -- they are empowered to use their own version of 'a presentment'."
tpaine attempting to explain why state do not need to use a grand jury, but demonstrating he does not know what a presentment is. As explained at #40 a presentment is an act of a grand jury. States file an information by a qualified official, needing neither an indictment nor a presentment of a grand jury. States do not need a grand jury at all, despite the Amendment 5 "presentment or indictment of a grand jury" requirement. That part of the Bill of Rights has yet to be incorporated against the states.
tpaine at 52: "During a discussion with Nolu Chan, he asserted that an amendment repealing the 2nd could be ratified, and become a valid part of our Constitution. I contend such an amendment would be unconstitutional."
This is nonsense. Who is empowered to declare an amendment to the Constitution to be unconstitutional? How can a part of the Constitution be unconstitutional?
tpaine #90:
In which he makes an ass of himself dissing a SCOTUS opinion by Scalia, thinking he is dissing nolu chan.
Armstrong v. Exceptional Child Ctr., Inc., 135 S.Ct. 1378 (2015), Opinion of the Court by Scalia, J.
[SCALIA] The Supremacy Clause, Art. VI, cl. 2, reads:“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.”
It is apparent that this Clause creates a rule of decision:
[tpaine #90] A "rule of decision"? --- Who in hell made up that OPINION? And why should I care?
[nc] Antonin Scalia "made up that Opinion," and you should care because he did it as an Associate Justice writing a majority opinion of the U.S. Supreme court.
[SCALIA] Courts “shall” regard the “Constitution,” and all laws “made in Pursuance thereof,” as “the supreme Law of the Land.” They must not give effect to state laws that conflict with federal laws.[tpaine #90] You are paraphrasing the words as written to make another OPINION, --- You really can't help yourself, can you....
[nc] Scalia was writing a majority Opinion of the U.S. Supreme Court.
[SCALIA] ---- It instructs courts what to do when state and federal law clash, but is silent regarding who may enforce federal laws in court, and in what circumstances they may do so.[tpaine #90] You're simply making up more opinions on what the supremacy clause means. -- Its apparent you can't stop this inane form of argument.
[nc] Justice Scalia was writing a majority Opinion of the U.S. Supreme Court pertaining to what the supremacy clause means. It speaks loudly of your intellect that you find his form of argument to be inane.
#122. To: nolu chan (#121)
nolu Chan, but i repeat myself (#118)
Yes, you do, because you are desperate and obsessive.
But don't let me stop the fun. --- Continue if you please.
tpaine in review ---
Good grief, ---how long do you intend to beat this dead imaginary horse?
Continue if you must, but I'm starting to fear for your sanity.
Get help...
#123. To: tpaine (#122)
Good grief, ---how long do you intend to beat this dead imaginary horse?
You have maintained that the Bill of Rights has always restrained the States since 1791. I have maintained the reality that you are full of shit, and have cited and quoted federal court opinions documenting that you are full of shit. There are many such court opinions. I intend to continue citing court opinions one day longer than continue to spew bullshit.
Good grief, ---how long do you intend to spew bullshit?
Johnston v. Earle, 245 F.2d 793 (9th Cir. 1957)
In Bell v. Hood, the refusal of the district court to consider this question, and its affirmance by the court of appeals3 was reversed, and the cause returned to the district court to determine whether the complaint stated a federal cause of action.
3 Bell v. Hood, 9 Cir., 1945, 150 F.2d 96.On its return to the district court, that court, in a very able opinion by Judge Mathes, held that no federal cause of action existed for the acts of federal officials violating the Fourth and Fifth Amendments.4 His reasoning is that the due process clause of the Fifth Amendment applies only to the federal government,5 and not to individuals.6
4 Bell v. Hood, D.C.S.D.Cal. 1947, 71 F. Supp. 813.5 That the Fifth Amendment applies only to the acts of the federal government is settled beyond doubt. See, e.g., Spies v. People of the State of Illinois, 1887, 123 U.S. 131, 166, 8 S.Ct. 21, 31 L.Ed. 80; Burdeau v. McDowell, 1921, 256 U.S. 465, 476, 41 S.Ct. 574, 65 L. Ed. 1048. In Feldman v. United States, 1944, 322 U.S. 487, 64 S.Ct. 1082, 88 L.Ed. 1408, the Court said: "* * * [F]or more than one hundred years, ever since Barron v. [Mayor and City Council of City of] Baltimore [1833], 7 Pet. 243 [ 32 U.S. 243], 8 L.Ed. 672, one of the principles of our Constitution has been that these [the Fourth and Fifth] Amendments protect only against invasion of civil liberties by the Government whose conduct they alone limit. Brown v. Walker, 161 U.S. 591, 606, 16 S.Ct. 644, 650, 40 L.Ed. 819; Jack v. [State of] Kansas, 199 U.S. 372, 380, 26 S.Ct. 73, 75, 50 L.Ed. 234; Twining v. [State of] New Jersey, 211 U.S. 78, 29 S.Ct. 14, 53 L.Ed. 97." 322 U.S. at page 490, 64 S.Ct. 1083.
6 Mr. Justice Black stated in Bell v. Hood that "whether federal courts can grant money recovery for damages said to have been suffered as a result of federal officers violating the Fourth and Fifth Amendments" is a question which "has never been specifically decided by this Court." 327 U.S. at page 684, 66 S.Ct. 777. In Weeks v. United States, 1914, 232 U.S. 383, 34 S.Ct. 341, 58 L.Ed. 652, however, the Supreme Court clearly indicated that there was no civil action for damages based upon the Fourth Amendment against officers who had violated it seizing plaintiff's property. Speaking of the possible nonfederal liability of the offending officers, the Court said: "What remedies the defendant may have against them we need not inquire, as the 4th Amendment is not directed to individual misconduct of such officials. Its limitations reach the Federal government and its agencies." 232 U.S. at page 398, 34 S.Ct. 346.
In fine, the federal government has created no cause of action enforceable in its courts for such torts under the state law, and hence the district court here lacked jurisdiction of the subject matter.
#124. To: nolu chan (#123)
Good grief, ---how long do you intend to beat this dead imaginary horse?
Continue if you must, but I'm starting to fear for your sanity.
Get help...
You have maintained that the Bill of Rights has always restrained the States since 1791. I have maintained the reality that you are full of shit, and have cited and quoted federal court opinions documenting that you are full of shit.
Court opinions do NOT change the bill of rights. Only statists claim they do..
There are many such court opinions. I intend to continue citing court opinions one day longer than continue to spew bullshit.
Continuing only demonstrates your desperation and mental problems, so have at it.
#125. To: tpaine (#124)
Good grief, ---how long do you intend to beat this dead imaginary horse?
You have maintained that the Bill of Rights has always restrained the States since 1791. I have maintained the reality that you are full of shit, and have cited and quoted federal court opinions documenting that you are full of shit. There are many such court opinions. I intend to continue citing court opinions one day longer than continue to spew bullshit.
Good grief, ---how long do you intend to spew bullshit?
tpaine #49 The 2nd has always applied to the States, -- the 'incorporation' bull has just been used by statists to avoid compliance.
Time for another federal court opinion documenting almost two centuries of the federal courts unanimously saying tpaine is full of shit.
Southport Lane Equity II, LLC v. Downey, 3:15-cv-0335-RCJ-VPC (D. Nev. Mar 30, 2016)
Until the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted in 1868, no federal due process clause applied to the states. See Barron v. City of Baltimore, 32 U.S. 243, 250-51 (1833) (Marshall, C.J.).
And my pet plant has been watered for another day.
#126. To: nolu chan (#125)
Court opinions do NOT change the bill of rights. Only statists claim they do..
There are many such court opinions. I intend to continue citing court opinions one day longer than continue to spew bullshit.
Continuing only demonstrates your desperation and mental problems, so have at it.
And my pet plant has been watered for another day.
Which statement demonstrates your mental problems, poor fella.
#127. To: tpaine (#126)
[tpaine #49] The 2nd has always applied to the States, -- the 'incorporation' bull has just been used by statists to avoid compliance.
[tpaine #126] Court opinions do NOT change the bill of rights. Only statists claim they do..
The Constitution, as construed by the U.S. Supreme Court, is the supreme law of the land. As construed by crackpot tpaine, not so much.
Cooper v Aaron, 358 US 1 (1958):
Article VI of the Constitution makes the Constitution the “supreme Law of the Land.” In 1803, Chief Justice Marshall, speaking for a unanimous Court, referring to the Constitution as “the fundamental and paramount law of the nation,” declared in the notable case of Marbury v. Madison, 1 Cranch 137, 177, that “It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is.” This decision declared the basic principle that the federal judiciary is supreme in the exposition of the law of the Constitution, and that principle has ever since been respected by this Court and the Country as a permanent and indispensable feature of our constitutional system. It follows that the interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment enunciated by this Court in the Brown case is the supreme law of the land, and Art. VI of the Constitution makes it of binding effect on the States “any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.” Every state legislator and executive and judicial officer is solemnly committed by oath taken pursuant to Art. VI, cl. 3, “to support this Constitution.”
Productions v. Fogerty, 3:14-cv-00633-RCJ-VPC (D. Nev. Aug 26, 2015) [John Fogerty, Creedence Clearwater Revival]
Until the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted in 1868, no federal due process clause applied to the states. See Barron v. City of Baltimore, 32 U.S. 243, 250-51 (1833) (Marshall, C.J.).
#128. To: nolu chan (#127)
tpaine #49] The 2nd has always applied to the States, -- the 'incorporation' bull has just been used by statists to avoid compliance.
[tpaine #126] Court opinions do NOT change the bill of rights. Only statists claim they do..
The Constitution, as construed by the U.S. Supreme Court, is the supreme law of the land.
Exactly, Court opinions do NOT change the bill of rights or the Constitution, -- since as construed by the U.S. Supreme Court, --- and as is evident within the document itself, it is the supreme law of the land.
You've finally had a flash of sanity. Thanks.
#129. To: tpaine (#128)
[tpaine #49] The 2nd has always applied to the States, -- the 'incorporation' bull has just been used by statists to avoid compliance.
[tpaine #126] Court opinions do NOT change the bill of rights. Only statists claim they do..
The Constitution, as construed by the U.S. Supreme Court, is the supreme law of the land. As construed by crackpot tpaine, not so much.
Cooper v Aaron, 358 US 1 (1958):
Article VI of the Constitution makes the Constitution the “supreme Law of the Land.” In 1803, Chief Justice Marshall, speaking for a unanimous Court, referring to the Constitution as “the fundamental and paramount law of the nation,” declared in the notable case of Marbury v. Madison, 1 Cranch 137, 177, that “It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is.” This decision declared the basic principle that the federal judiciary is supreme in the exposition of the law of the Constitution, and that principle has ever since been respected by this Court and the Country as a permanent and indispensable feature of our constitutional system. It follows that the interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment enunciated by this Court in the Brown case is the supreme law of the land, and Art. VI of the Constitution makes it of binding effect on the States “any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.” Every state legislator and executive and judicial officer is solemnly committed by oath taken pursuant to Art. VI, cl. 3, “to support this Constitution.”
[tpain #128] Exactly, Court opinions do NOT change the bill of rights or the Constitution, -- since as construed by the U.S. Supreme Court, --- and as is evident within the document itself, it is the supreme law of the land.
Cooper v Aaron, 358 US 1 (1958) for the learning impaired:
“It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is.” This decision declared the basic principle that the federal judiciary is supreme in the exposition of the law of the Constitution, and that principle has ever since been respected by this Court and the Country as a permanent and indispensable feature of our constitutional system. It follows that the interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment enunciated by this Court in the Brown case is the supreme law of the land."
Thus, when in Plessy the Court declared that separate but equal was the law of the land, that interpretation was the law of the land. And when, in Brown the Court declared that separate but equal was inherently unequal and unconstitutional, separate but equal was not the law of the land. The words of the Constitution did not change but the interpretation did, and the law of the land changed with the changing interpretation.
tpaine #49 The 2nd has always applied to the States, -- the 'incorporation' bull has just been used by statists to avoid compliance.
Time for another federal court opinion documenting almost two centuries of the federal courts unanimously saying tpaine is full of shit.
Bourke v. Beshear, 996 F.Supp.2d 542 (W.D. Ky. 2014)
It is true that the citizens have wide latitude to codify their traditional and moral values into law. In fact, until after the Civil War, states had almost complete power to do so, unless they encroached on a specific federal power. See Barron v. City of Baltimore, 32 U.S. 243, 250–51, 7 Pet. 243, 8 L.Ed. 672 (1833). However, in 1868 our country adopted the Fourteenth Amendment, which prohibited state governments from infringing upon our individual rights. Over the years, the Supreme Court has said time and time again that this Amendment makes the vast majority of the original Bill of Rights and other fundamental rights applicable to state governments.In fact, the first justice to articulate this view was one of Kentucky's most famous sons, Justice John Marshall Harlan. See Hurtado v. California, 110 U.S. 516, 558, 4 S.Ct. 111, 28 L.Ed. 232 (1884) (Harlan, J., dissenting). He wrote that the Fourteenth Amendment “added greatly to the dignity and glory of American citizenship, and to the security of personal liberty, by declaring that ... ‘no state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty or property without due process of law, nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.’ ” Plessy v. Ferguson, 163 U.S. 537, 555, 16 S.Ct. 1138, 41 L.Ed. 256 (1896) (Harlan, J., dissenting) (quoting U.S. Const. amend. XIV).
So now, the Constitution, including its equal protection and due process clauses, protects all of us from government action at any level, whether in the form of an act by a high official, a state employee, a legislature, or a vote of the people adopting a constitutional amendment.
#130. To: nolu chan (#129)
Nolu, you are without a doubt, one of the craziest creeps I've every had the good fortune to be entertained by, on the internet.
Please, do continue your madness..
#131. To: tpaine (#130)
[tpaine #129] Please, do continue your madness..
At your request, if that is what it takes to demonstrate you you are unable to make your case, or any case at all, other than your own dementia.
[tpaine #126] Court opinions do NOT change the bill of rights. Only statists claim they do..
The Constitution, as construed by the U.S. Supreme Court, is the supreme law of the land. As construed by crackpot tpaine, not so much.
Cooper v Aaron, 358 US 1 (1958):
Article VI of the Constitution makes the Constitution the “supreme Law of the Land.” In 1803, Chief Justice Marshall, speaking for a unanimous Court, referring to the Constitution as “the fundamental and paramount law of the nation,” declared in the notable case of Marbury v. Madison, 1 Cranch 137, 177, that “It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is.” This decision declared the basic principle that the federal judiciary is supreme in the exposition of the law of the Constitution, and that principle has ever since been respected by this Court and the Country as a permanent and indispensable feature of our constitutional system. It follows that the interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment enunciated by this Court in the Brown case is the supreme law of the land, and Art. VI of the Constitution makes it of binding effect on the States “any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.” Every state legislator and executive and judicial officer is solemnly committed by oath taken pursuant to Art. VI, cl. 3, “to support this Constitution.”
Poor, poor tpaine. There are so many Federal court opinions, and they are unanimous that you are full of shit.
[tpaine #49] The 2nd has always applied to the States, -- the 'incorporation' bull has just been used by statists to avoid compliance.
Cooper v Aaron, 358 US 1 (1958) for the learning impaired:
“It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is.” This decision declared the basic principle that the federal judiciary is supreme in the exposition of the law of the Constitution, and that principle has ever since been respected by this Court and the Country as a permanent and indispensable feature of our constitutional system. It follows that the interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment enunciated by this Court in the Brown case is the supreme law of the land."
Rockwell Automation, Inc. v. Beckhoff Automation, LLC, 2:13-cv-01616-RCJ-NJK (D. Nev. May 30, 2014)
Until 1868, when the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted, the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment did not apply to the states. See Barron v. City of Baltimore, 32 U.S. 243, 250-51 (1833) (Marshall, C.J.).
#132. To: nolu chan (#131)
tpaine #126] Court opinions do NOT change the bill of rights. Only statists claim they do..
The Constitution, as construed by the U.S. Supreme Court, is the supreme law of the land.
SCOTUS opinions do not change the supreme law of the land.
Poor, poor tpaine. There are so many Federal court opinions, and they are unanimous that you are full of shit.
Poor poor nolu, full of insane opinions that don't mean shit.
#133. To: tpaine (#132)
[tpaine #132] SCOTUS opinions do not change the supreme law of the land.
And no bullshit you spew establishes you as the national arbiter of what the Constitution says. That authority is given to the Judiciary.
Cooper v Aaron, 358 US 1 (1958) for the learning impaired:
“It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is.” This decision declared the basic principle that the federal judiciary is supreme in the exposition of the law of the Constitution, and that principle has ever since been respected by this Court and the Country as a permanent and indispensable feature of our constitutional system. It follows that the interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment enunciated by this Court in the Brown case is the supreme law of the land."
[tpaine #49] The 2nd has always applied to the States, -- the 'incorporation' bull has just been used by statists to avoid compliance.
And here is your daily Federal court opinion documenting that you are full of shit. Every relevant Federal court opinion ever rendered documents that you are full of shit. So many opinions and only just so many days in the year.
Unitedhealth Grp., Inc. v. United Healthcare, Inc., 2:14-cv-00224-RCJ-NJK (D. Nev. Dec 30, 2014)
Until 1868, when the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted, the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment did not apply to the states. See Barron v. City of Baltimore, 32 U.S. 243, 250-51 (1833) (Marshall, C.J.).
#134. To: nolu chan (#133)
SCOTUS opinions do not change the supreme law of the land.
Poor, poor tpaine. There are so many Federal court opinions, and they are unanimous that you are full of shit.
Poor poor nolu, full of insane opinions that don't mean shit.
Every relevant Federal court opinion ever rendered documents that you are full of shit.
How insane can you get? You're citing opinions to prove your opinions...
Opinions do not change our Constitution…
#135. To: tpaine (#134)
[tpaine #134]
Poor poor nolu, full of insane opinions that don't mean shit. ...How insane can you get? You're citing opinions to prove your opinions...
Opinions do not change our Constitution…
Cooper v Aaron, 358 US 1 (1958)
It follows that the interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment enunciated by this Court in the Brown case is the supreme law of the land, and Art. VI of the Constitution makes it of binding effect on the States “any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.” Every state legislator and executive and judicial officer is solemnly committed by oath taken pursuant to Art. VI, cl. 3, “to support this Constitution.”
[tpaine #49] The 2nd has always applied to the States, -- the 'incorporation' bull has just been used by statists to avoid compliance.
Poor tpaine. Here's an oldie but a goodie from SCOTUS. And it continues... the Federal opinions are unanimous that tpaine is full of shit. And all tpaine can do is take it and squeeze out another of his insane turds of thought.
United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542, 553 (1875)
The right there specified is that of "bearing arms for a lawful purpose." This is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed, but this, as has been seen, means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress. This is one of the amendments that has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the national government, leaving the people to look for their protection against any violation by their fellow citizens of the rights it recognizes, to what is called, in The City of New York v. Miln, 11 Pet. 139, the "powers which relate to merely municipal legislation, or what was, perhaps, more properly called internal police," "not surrendered or restrained" by the Constitution of the United States.
#136. To: nolu chan (#135)
Poor poor nolu, full of insane opinions that don't mean shit. ... How insane can you get? You're citing opinions to prove your opinions...
Opinions do not change our Constitution…
Poor tpaine. Here's an oldie but a goodie ----
And in reply you post more opinions. --- This is true insanity.
#137. To: tpaine (#136)
Poor poor nolu, full of insane opinions that don't mean shit. ... How insane can you get? You're citing opinions to prove your opinions...Opinions do not change our Constitution…
Translation: Thank you sir! May I have another?
Cooper v Aaron, 358 US 1 (1958)
It follows that the interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment enunciated by this Court in the Brown case is the supreme law of the land, and Art. VI of the Constitution makes it of binding effect on the States “any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.” Every state legislator and executive and judicial officer is solemnly committed by oath taken pursuant to Art. VI, cl. 3, “to support this Constitution.”
[tpaine #49] The 2nd has always applied to the States, -- the 'incorporation' bull has just been used by statists to avoid compliance.
[nolu chan #38] please explain why the States are free to try and execute people without complying with the 5th Amendment requirement for an indictment issued by a grand jury.
[tpaine #39:]
Read below: --- "on a presentment or indictment".Amendment V No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
[nolu chan #38] Why are States free to ignore that requirement every day?
[tpaine #39] States don't ignore it; -- they are empowered to use their own version of 'a presentment'.
[nolu chan #40]
Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Edition
Presentment. The written notice taken by a grand jury of any offense, from their own knowledge or observation without any bill of indictment laid before them at the suit of the government. A presentment is an accusation, initiated by the grand jury itself, and in effect instruction that an indictment be drawn. U.S. v. Briggs, C.A.Fla., 514 F.2d 794, 804. A written accusation of crime made and returned by the grand jury upon its own initiative in the exercise of its lawful inquisitorial powers, is in the form of a bill of indictment, and in practice is signed individually by all the grand jurors who return it. See State v. Hudson, 487 Tenn.Cr.Ap S.W.2d 672, 674. See also Indictment; Information; Presenter.States don't ignore it; -- they are empowered to use their own version of 'a presentment'.
Perhaps you should take a remedial course in reading comprehension?
No, you are too ignorant of the law to know what a presentment is, and too lazy to look up a legal term you do not know. You blather on only to prove to the world that you have no clue what you are talking about.
For a major Federal crime, a grand jury is mandatory per the 5th Amendment. For a State prosecution is is not, depending on State law. Most states use an information, with no grand jury presentment or indictment involved, as no grand jury is involved.
How can that be if the 5th Amendment applies to the States?
Poor tpaine. Every relevant Federal court opinion in our nation's history has said that tpaine is full of shit. For example, he has never been able to explain how full of shit he was when bloviating out his butt about an indictment or presentment of a grand jury, and an information filed against a criminal defendant by a State. tpaine claimed States used "their own version of 'a presentment', some imaginary document filed by the Easter bunny. A presentment only originates from a grand jury. When a State files an information, it does so in the absence of any grand jury.
Maxwell v. Dow, 176 U.S. 581, 584-85 (1900)
It was alleged by the counsel for the plaintiff in error, before the court which passed sentence, that the proceeding was in conflict with the Fifth and the Fourteenth Amendments, and those grounds were before this court. The Fifth Amendment was referred to in the opinion delivered in this court, and it was held not to have been violated by the state law, although that amendment provides for an indictment by a grand jury. This decision could not have been arrived at if a citizen of the United States were entitled, by virtue of that clause of the Fourteenth Amendment relating to the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States, to claim in a state court that he could not be prosecuted for an infamous crime unless upon an indictment by a grand jury. In a Federal court, no person can be held to answer for a capital or otherwise infamous crime unless by indictment by a grand jury, with the exceptions stated in the Fifth Amendment. Yet this amendment was held in the Hurtado case not to apply to a prosecution for murder in a state court pursuant to a state law. The claim was made in the case (and referred to in the opinion) that the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment provided an additional security to the individual against oppression by the States themselves, and limited their powers to the same extent as the amendments theretofore adopted had limited the powers of the Federal Government. By holding that the conviction upon an information was valid, the court necessarily held that an indictment was not necessary; that exemption from trial for an infamous crime, excepting under an indictment, was not one of those priviliges or immunities of a citizen of the United States which a State was prohibited from abridging.
#138. To: nolu chan (#137)
Poor poor nolu, full of insane opinions that don't mean shit. ... How insane can you get? You're citing opinions to prove your opinions...
Opinions do not change our Constitution…
And true to your own insane opinions, you reply with more opinions.
You're amusingly idiotic.
#139. To: tpaine (#138)
Poor poor nolu, full of insane opinions that don't mean shit. ... How insane can you get? You're citing opinions to prove your opinions...Opinions do not change our Constitution…
And true to your own insane opinions, you reply with more opinions.
Translation: Thank you sir! May I have another?
Why, of course, There are so many federal court opinions and they all say tpaine is full of shit. I never even have to repeat one and can keep going for years.
You may just continue to do your impression of a Democratic congressman throwing a tantrum on the floor of the House.
Cooper v Aaron, 358 US 1 (1958)
It follows that the interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment enunciated by this Court in the Brown case is the supreme law of the land, and Art. VI of the Constitution makes it of binding effect on the States “any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.” Every state legislator and executive and judicial officer is solemnly committed by oath taken pursuant to Art. VI, cl. 3, “to support this Constitution.”
[tpaine #49] The 2nd has always applied to the States, -- the 'incorporation' bull has just been used by statists to avoid compliance.
For another federal court opinion saying tpaine is full of shit, I present:
Palko v Connecticut, 302 US 319 (1937)
The Fifth Amendment provides also that no person shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself. This court has said that, in prosecutions by a state, the exemption will fail if the state elects to end it. Twining v. New Jersey, 211 U. S. 78, 211 U. S. 106, 211 U. S. 111, 211 U. S. 112. Cf. Snyder v. Massachusetts, supra, p. 291 U. S. 105; Brown v. Mississippi, 297 U. S. 278, 297 U. S. 285. The Sixth Amendment calls for a jury trial in criminal cases, and the Seventh for a jury trial in civil cases at common law where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars. This court has ruled that consistently with those amendments trial by jury may be modified by a state or abolished altogether. Walker v. Sauvinet, 92 U. S. 90; Maxwell v. Dow, 176 U. S. 581; New York Central R. Co. v. White, 243 U. S. 188, 243 U. S. 208; Wagner Electric Mfg. Co. v. Lyndon, 262 U. S. 226, 262 U. S. 232. As to the Fourth Amendment, one should refer to Weeks v. United States, 232 U. S. 383, 232 U. S. 398, and, as to other provisions of the Sixth, to West v. Louisiana, 194 U. S. 258.[...]
2. The conviction of appellant is not in derogation of any privileges or immunities that belong to him as a citizen of the United States.
There is argument in his behalf that the privileges and immunities clause of the Fourteenth Amendment as well as the due process clause has been flouted by the judgment.
Maxwell v. Dow, supra, p. 176 U. S. 584, gives all the answer that is necessary.
And that is why I quoted Maxwell v. Dow at #137.
#140. To: nolu chan (#139)
Opinions do not change our Constitution…
And true to your own insane opinions, you reply with more opinions.
Why, of course, There are so many federal court opinions and they all say tpaine is full of shit. I never even have to repeat one and can keep going for years.
Fine with me, because I can also make fun of your idiocy, for years.
#148. To: tpaine (#140)
[nolu chan #139] There are so many federal court opinions and they all say tpaine is full of shit. I never even have to repeat one and can keep going for years.
[tpaine #140] Fine with me, because I can also make fun of your idiocy, for years.
Fine with me too. Here is your weekly update.
The number of relevant Federal court opinions on the applicability of the original Bill of Rights is legion, and they all say tpaine is full of shit.
[tpaine #49] The 2nd has always applied to the States, -- the 'incorporation' bull has just been used by statists to avoid compliance.
Time for yet another spanking with yet another federal court opinion documenting that the Bill of Rights does not restrain the States. The Fourteenth amendment restrains the States regarding certain rights that have been incorporated into the Fourteenth Amendment. A claim against a State under one of the BoR amendments directly is found not cognizable pursuant to Barron v. City of Baltimore.
ROE v. BUTTERWORTH, (S.D.Fla. 1997), 958 F. Supp. 1569 (S.D. Fla. 1997)
Petitioner brings her claims under the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution.11Since Petitioner's claim is brought only against the State of Florida through its Attorney General, it is only cognizable pursuant to the Fourteenth Amendment. See Barron v. City of Baltimore, 32 U.S. 243, 7 Pet. 243, 8 L.Ed. 672 (1833).
#149. To: nolu chan, imagining spankings, gets ever more excited. (#148)
Time for yet another spanking.
Time for more making more fun of your idiotic reposts, you mean. Rant on, making non substantive, weirdo responses, imagining that you're "spanking" anyone.
#150. To: tpaine (#149)
[tpaine #149] Thank you, Sir! May I have another?
Of course. Another spanking demonstrating the BoR does not apply to the States and you are full of shit.
Valerio v. City of San Diego, CASE NO: 12-CV-1200 W (WMC) (S.D. Cal. Jun 17, 2013), page 18, n. 10
Plaintiffs' substantive due process argument is only valid insofar as it asserts a violation of the Fourteenth Amendment. There can be no Fifth Amendment violation here since Defendants are not federal actors. See Barron, 32 U.S. 243, 247 (1833).
#151. To: nolu chan (#150)
Time for more making more fun of your idiotic reposts, you mean. Rant on, making non substantive, weirdo responses, imagining that you're "spanking" anyone.
Another spanking demonstrating the BoR does not apply to the States ---
Another opinion does not change our Constitution.
#152. To: tpaine (#151)
Thank you sir, may I have another?
Of course. As many as needed to persuade you that the BoR does not apply to the States. The rights are applied via the 14th Amendment.
Medcapgroup, LLC v. Mesa Pharmacy, Inc., 2:14-cv-00674-RCJ-NJK (D. Nev. Jul 29, 2014)
Until 1868, when the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted, the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment did not apply to the states. See Barron v. City of Baltimore, 32 U.S. 243, 250-51 (1833) (Marshall, C.J.).
Replies to Comment # 152.
Time for more making more fun of your idiotic reposts, you mean. Rant on, making non substantive, weirdo responses, imagining that you're "spanking" anyone.
Another spanking demonstrating the BoR does not apply to the States ---
Another opinion does not change our Constitution.
Thank you sir, may I have another? --- Of course. As many as needed to persuade you --
You're crazy as a bedbug in your repetitious postings. -- I'm thinking of taking pity on you and ending this farce.
Are you lucid enough to agree?
End Trace Mode for Comment # 152.
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