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Title: Trump says the US can beat ISIS terrorists – but 'you have to take out their families'
Source: Daily Mail Online
URL Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art ... -ISIS-terrorists-families.html
Published: Dec 2, 2015
Author: Nikki Schwab, U.s. Political Reporter Fo
Post Date: 2015-12-02 18:23:05 by cranky
Keywords: None
Views: 10386
Comments: 72

  • Donald Trump appeared on Fox and Friends this morning and made a new suggestion on how to destroy ISIS terrorists
  • Beyond targeting family members, Trump suggested that President Obama was revealing too much of the current ISIS strategy to the public
  • Today Trump also suggested he was vindicated in his comments about American Muslims cheering on 9/11 as the Twin Towers collapsed
  • See full coverage of Donald Trump at www.dailymail.co.uk/trump

Donald Trump said he would 'knock the hell out of ISIS' and he has a ruthless plan to do so.

'You have to take out their families,' The Donald said this morning on Fox and Friends. 'When you get these terrorists you have to take out their families.'

Trump's reasoning was that the fighters 'care about their lives, don't kid yourselves,' he continued.

The billionaire's comments fit neatly in with other proclamations he's made on how to take out the growing terrorist group including 'bomb[ing] the hell out of them' and 'attack[ing] the oil.'

Scroll down for video

Donald Trump said he would 'knock the hell out of ISIS' by going after relatives of the terrorist fighters because ISIS members 'care about their [family members'] lives'

Donald Trump said he would 'knock the hell out of ISIS' by going after relatives of the terrorist fighters because ISIS members 'care about their [family members'] lives'

Donald Trump also said he would try to prevent civilian deaths, but it's a difficult prospect because ISIS fighters are 'using them as shields'

Donald Trump also said he would try to prevent civilian deaths, but it's a difficult prospect because ISIS fighters are 'using them as shields'

'I would knock the hell out of ISIS,' Trump said this morning to host Brian Kilmeade. 'I would hit them, Brian, so hard, like they've never been hit before.'

While taking out ISIS members and their families, Trump said he would try his 'absolute best' to avoid civilian casualties in ISIS strongholds in Syria and Iraq.

'One of the problems that we have and one of the reasons we're so ineffective is they are using them as shields,' Trump said of civilians. 'It's a horrible thing, but we're fighting a very politically correct war.'

The GOP frontrunner was critical of President Obama's ISIS strategy saying the president was sending too few troops and revealing his hand a little too much.

'Every time he sends troops over even if it's a small number ... he announced 50 last week, he has a press conference to inform everybody he's sending troops and it's like they have a target on their back,' Trump said.

'If you do your job, do your job,' Trump continued. 'Don't talk about it – too much talk.'

Donald Trump help up a Breitbart News article headlined, 'Trump 100% Vindicated: CBS Reports ‘Swarm’ On Rooftops Celebrating 9/11' during a Periscope Q&A this afternoon

Donald Trump help up a Breitbart News article headlined, 'Trump 100% Vindicated: CBS Reports ‘Swarm’ On Rooftops Celebrating 9/11' during a Periscope Q&A this afternoon <

Trump also again defended his comments about American Muslims celebrating 9/11 during a Q&A he hosted on the Twitter-app Periscope this afternoon.

The billionaire held up a print-out of an article by Breitbart News headlined, 'Trump 100% Vindicated: CBS Reports ‘Swarm’ On Rooftops Celebrating 9/11.'

'I knew I saw it. I heard about it. Hundreds of people have called in telling me I was right,' Trump said. 'They live in New Jersey.'

The Breitbart article pointed to a report coming out of the local CBS News affiliate in New York in which reporter Pablo Guzmán talked about a New Jersey apartment building 'swarming with suspects – suspects who I’m told were cheering on the roof when they saw the planes slam into the Trade Center.'

'Police were called to the building by neighbors and found eight men celebrating, six of them tenants in the building,' Guzmán continued.

The Breitbart article made a lot of the 'swarming' claim, suggesting that this means that Trump is vindicated.

Breitbart writer John Nolte wrote, 'The fact that a certain number were brought into custody does not change the fact that there was a “swarm."'

CBS, putting out its own story, pointed to the clip and said it only raises more questions.

For one, there's no video footage of any 'swarms' celebrating the destruction of the Twin Towers, which has been central in Trump's story.

Guzmán, the original reporter, eventually took to Twitter to straighten things out.

Guzmán said his source was a New Jersey and also a Port Authority police officer and 'they were told eight people seen.'

'Far from thousands,' Guzmán said, which is another aspect of the Trump claim. 'Still it disturbed folks.'

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#1. To: cranky (#0)

'I would knock the hell out of ISIS,'

The difficult thing with Trump is this strategy is not wrong but his delivery is callous and he portrays america as mad. He fails to realise that while his remarks are for local consumption he is reported all over the world

Trump has also mixed reports of the palestinians celebrating 9/11 in his mind with local reports, yes, thousands celebrated in the muslim world but not in the US.

Noone doubts the possibility of a muslim fifth column in western countries and this is even more evident in Europe, however they have a muslim population of millions concentrated in major cities, a somewhat different situation to what Trump apparently envisages.

It is time for the west to push back against the muslim invasion and this has begun. It can be done with sensitivity by restoring their homelands to places where it is desirable for them to live. The west has responsibility for the present situation. The problems we have are the result of invasion of muslim lands. The reasons, the justifications, are not the issues from the muslim perspective

paraclete  posted on  2015-12-02   19:22:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: paraclete (#1)

Trump has also mixed reports of the palestinians celebrating 9/11 in his mind with local reports, yes, thousands celebrated in the muslim world but not in the US.

Maybe, maybe not.

Trump 100% Vindicated: CBS Reports ‘Swarm’ On Rooftops Celebrating 9/11

There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't

cranky  posted on  2015-12-02   19:29:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: cranky (#0)

I become afraid of people when they sale war and protectionist mumbo jumbo.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-12-02   21:05:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: paraclete (#1)

Trump's delivery is callous. I like callous. It's war.

Trump has the content - everything he says turns out to be right.

And all of his opponents in the Establishment, the "Seven Dwarves" up there? They talk smoothly. Of course, that's all any of them has ever done. None of them has a single accomplishment, other than giving speeches.

The world doesn't get to elect the American President. Americans do. If he sounds mad to the world, so what? The US and the EU don't like Putin much, but he still plows forward, effective and powerful, and popular in his own country.

Donald Trump says it like it is, and I like that.

The others with their oily tongues say it like it isn't, are very smooth, and accomplish nothing other than collect a paycheck presiding over defeat and decline.

Give me Trump any day.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-12-02   22:17:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Vicomte13 (#4)

I thought you hated War. :-/

ebonytwix  posted on  2015-12-02   22:45:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Vicomte13 (#4) (Edited)

And all of his opponents in the Establishment, the "Seven Dwarves" up there? They talk smoothly. Of course, that's all any of them has ever done

And that's all any of them will ever do. They talk smoothly and look nice.

rlk  posted on  2015-12-02   22:56:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Vicomte13 (#4)

Trump has the content - everything he says turns out to be right.

Trump is the biggest a-hole out there. He's in a league with A K A Stone.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2015-12-02   22:59:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Fred Mertz (#7)

Trump is the biggest a-hole out there. He's in a league with A K A Stone.

So am I: Trump, Stone and the Vicomte13, united in common cause.

Necessity makes for strange bedfellows, but only a fool fights in a burning house.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-12-02   23:56:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: ebonytwix (#5)

I thought you hated War. :-/

I do.

And we are at war, whether we would be or no, because our enemies have attacked us, continue to attack us, and will make no peace.

They will make no peace because they are intoxicated by the Devil.

We fight or we are conquered. They die or we die. I prefer they die.

I hate war and so I want it over. That means winning. Prolonging war prolongs the agony, extends the killings, makes it worse and worse and worse.

The way to end this war swiftly is to throw our support behind Russia and France, and assist them in obliterating ISIS. That means that Assad survives and we lose our argument in Syria. So be it.

ISIS will be destroyed and the war will be over. And that will save lives.

Faced with a Hitler, you either fight him or you surrender to him: he's not going to go away. And if you surrender to him, he might kill you anyway. So the only real choice is to do the thing you hate and fight a war.

When you fight, you go right for the eyes and the jugular. You crush him - and that means killing a lot of people. There is no other way. You do what you have to do to defeat him, and you ask God to forgive you later. He will. Your other choice is to apologize for your sins and let the bad guys kill you. God will accept you then also. Either way, God will accept you.

Therefore, if forced to it, you do what you have to do to win here, and then you apologize for what you did and get to Heaven anyway.

Win here and then win there. It's a better solution to my eyes than lose here and die screaming, and having basically the same result on the other side.

I don't want to kill anybody, because God said not to. But if people come for me in war, then I kill. And if that means killing people through collateral damage in order to get at them, well, I am truly sorry for that, but that's the way the world is, and I do not intend to lose the fight.

God will forgive me, just as he promised to. God forgives everything if you ask him to and you are forgiving. Once my enemy is dead and my people are no longer threatened with death, I will forgive my enemy, and I will forgive his survivors. But until then, he started the war, and I intend to kill him and everybody who stands with him, until the survivors kneel in submission, or fertilize the ground. They will do no different to me.

It's 1945. I have the bomb and 20/20 hindsight. I'm Harry Truman. I drop it, just like he did. With hindsight. Because you can atone for your sins once you've won the war.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-12-03   0:06:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Vicomte13 (#8)

You think you're an asshole? Fixed and opinionated - maybe, but not really a JERK.

ebonytwix  posted on  2015-12-03   0:28:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Vicomte13 (#9)

I guess that is acceptable. A lot of people will be wary of your words and look at it wrong though. The earth is a messy business.

But you did complain about the military not valuing God, so is us fighting back since He told us not to kill. So what makes that different from this?

ebonytwix  posted on  2015-12-03   0:29:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Vicomte13 (#4)

I like callous. It's war.

The world may not elect the american president but it has a stake in his actions. We are living with the results of the actions of one delusional president. Trump and Putin are very alike, men of action, but we have yet to see whether Putin's actions win a war or escalate it, and adding Trump would be a volitile mix becuase it is very likely he would have to deal with Putin in Ukraine.

Trump is not diplomatic in his speech and that doesn't bode well for foriegn affairs, Sometimes you are unable to be as direct as he is

paraclete  posted on  2015-12-03   0:35:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: paraclete (#1)

The difficult thing with Trump is this strategy is not wrong but his delivery is callous and he portrays america as mad.

Precisely.

He fails to realise that while his remarks are for local consumption he is reported all over the world

No,he just doesn't care. He is a sociopath and cares nothing about anyone but himself.

It is time for the west to push back against the muslim invasion and this has begun. It can be done with sensitivity by restoring their homelands to places where it is desirable for them to live. The west has responsibility for the present situation. The problems we have are the result of invasion of muslim lands. The reasons, the justifications, are not the issues from the muslim perspective

Pure,unadulterated HorseHillary. Their cesspool homelands are cesspools because these backwards superstitious religious lunatics made them that way. We in the west are not responsible in ANY WAY for the character flaws that make ragheads ragheads. ALL they do when they leave ragheeadland is to try to make their new homes carbon copies of the dungheaps they left behind.

What we SHOULD do,but won't,is deport them all back to the Muddle East,and they surround the whole area and create a total embargo. Nothing and no one going it,and nothing and no one coming out until after the dust settles and the survivors are willing to give up the brainfart they call Islam and become civilized peoples.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2015-12-03   3:50:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Vicomte13 (#4)

Trump's delivery is callous. I like callous. It's war.

Yeah,but you are longing for another Holy Crusade.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2015-12-03   3:51:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Vicomte13 (#4)

Well stated Vic !!

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't

Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

There are no Carthaginian terrorists.

“The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.” - George S. Patton

Stoner  posted on  2015-12-03   6:35:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: ebonytwix (#11)

ut you did complain about the military not valuing God, so is us fighting back since He told us not to kill. So what makes that different from this?

The difference is elementary, my dear ebony.

Everything I said about war was predicated on remembering that in the end one wants to go to Heaven when one dies. Therefore, one cannot love war. One fights wars when one has to, recognizing that the bloodshed is bad, being sorry for the evil one commits, and trusting God when he says he forgives. Remember King David, God's anointed. Because he was waist deep in blood from war after war, God did not let him build the Temple. That task was left to his son. God didn't un-anoint David, and David did what he had to do - but war is STILL sinful, all the killing, even if you have to do it.

You do it to survive. Just like stealing if you are starving. Does the fact you are starving make it not stealing? No, it's still stealing. But you have to do it because the alternative, dying, is worse. Or lying, in war, to hide innocent people from getting killed. Or becoming a prostitute and fornicating for hire in the ancient world because the alternative in a world without welfare was starvation and death for you and your children. Stealing, lying, harlotry and killing in war are all sins EVEN IF they are done out of necessity. And God will forgive all of them to the man or woman who is sorry for having to do them, who recognizes God and who admits the sin and asks for forgiveness.

But the man who refuses to recognize God - not because he has to hide his faith to keep from getting killed, but as one of the authorities enforcing a rule of his own devising? - he has no excuse, and he has nowhere to turn to be forgiven, because he denies God.

That is the difference.

Likewise in war, there is a very great difference between being the attacker who starts the war and fires the first shots, makes the first attack, and the defender who shoots back in response. It's the same difference as between the robber who points a gun at a store clerk and threatens death, and the store clerk who points one back. The robber has no right to rob. But the clerk DOES have the right to stop BEING robbed, or worse, by using the identical threat and weapon as the robber.

It's the same difference as the difference between the murderer who shoots people on a rampage, and the cop or executioner who kills the murderer in response.

This does not mean that cops can just shoot people on their own without very good reason. When they do that, they are the murderers.

It is simple and straightforward.

If the military is fighting and killing to defend a nation from an attacker, when the battle stops and the smoke clears the defending victor can ask God for forgiveness for what he has had to do.

But if the military, for no reason other than bad ideology, actively suppresses expressions about God, then that military is suppressing the truth, and to whom can they then turn when they fight and kill, even in defense? Nobody. They die unatoned in their sins of killing.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-12-03   7:17:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: sneakypete (#14)

I'm not longing for a Holy Crusade. Rather, I recognize that the enemy is not "youths", it's youths, and middle aged men and women, fired up by a religion. We are forced to fight because of the religion. And the nature of their religion is such that no Muslim can be trusted: on its own terms the religion calls them to perpetual war - violent physical war, not spiritual war - against everybody else until they conquer the world. And their religion explicitly allows any one of them to lie at any time to anybody who isn't part of their religion, because deceit is a necessary aspect of war.

Those are facts. That is what the Muslim religion IS: forever war against the rest of the world, in the name of God, with deceit always a legitimate tactic.

As long as a man or woman is a Muslim, that man or woman cannot be fully trusted, BECAUSE HIS GOD SAYS HE CAN LIE TO ANYBODY, BECAUSE his God says that he is always at war with non-Muslims. He can be peaceful, when it suits him, and he can suddenly attack, when it suits him. Because Allah gives him the right to kill every non-Muslim who won't submit, and allows him to lie in any manner, when he feels it advantageous.

That's Islam. It's not Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism or, for that matter, Communism, Socialism or even Naziism. The Nazis never pretended that any God gave them the universal right to slaughter any non-Nazis and to lie in treaties and break contracts at will, simply because they were Nazis. But Allah of Islam DOES.

Which means that the problem is ISLAM. Not "religion". Islam is the only religion that combines those particular elements of a license to kill, perpetual war AND a universal individual Muslim license to lie, at any time, to any non-Muslim, because of forever war.

We SEE Muslims doing just this too. Living peacefully for decades, then suddenly cooking off and killing their neighbors, BECAUSE Allah authorizes that and promises them heaven for it.

Christians and Jews and Hindus CAN'T do that. Islam is uniquely evil in this regard.

It is attacking us, and always has been. Now it's worse because immigration and modern weaponry mean Muslims are everywhere, and can do damage everywhere. AND THEY DO.

It's not a call for a Holy Crusade to recognize that the problem is Islam, and that you have to fight Islam AS ISLAM - you have to fight the religion ITSELF, AS a religion, because IT is the source of the psycopathy.

But you can't fight an evil god with no god. You can fend off a Muslim attack, but you cannot rip up the religion by the roots unless you have a comprehensive belief system to replace it in the hearts and minds of the people you have defeated. Otherwise, you sit there, like Soviets (or Americans) in Afghanistan, and they sit there and wait for you to run out of patience, money and blood. And they keep attacking you at the margins, making you bleed. And without your own God as an alternative, their god wins in the end.

So WHEN you finally go fight Islam, you MUST do it with a theology as well as weapons. Otherwise you lose.

Killing off the Christianity in your own ranks means that you have a weak political force facing fanatics. You lose a lot of people that way. Christians recognize that they are fighting Satan when they are fighting Islam. Muzzling the Christians to pretend that the fighting force is just one big secular happy fighting for abstract principles, or against the principle of religion in general, simply means that you're cutting off your own trigger finger.

You can defeat the Muslims in a battle. The only way to END the war is to take the Muslim lands you occupy and CONVERT them to new beliefs. Otherwise, the same old noxious weeds of God- inflamed fanaticism will rise again, as has happened continuously since the mid-600s AD.

You cannot fight troops without troops. And you cannot fight ideas without ideas.

You call the conversion part a "Holy Crusade". I would call it winning the war. But yes, you do have to bring in your religion, your ideology and persuade many of them to leave theirs. I suppose that is a Crusade in a sense: fighting a war against his religion, to replace it with yours.

You don't do that to Hindus, or even to Communists. They can STAY atheist if they want to. But when fighting Islam, you HAVE to replace their god, or you will never stop them. You can beat them in the field 99 times, but they come back for the 100th, and if they lie and catch you by surprise, you lose.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-12-03   7:35:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: buckeroo (#3)

I become afraid of people when they sale war and protectionist mumbo jumbo.

With Trump, it's probably just bluster.

Besides, once Øbama is gone, the other two co-equal branches of government will magically reappear, assert their authority with various checks and balances and stop any efforts to roll back what Øbama started.

There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't

cranky  posted on  2015-12-03   7:47:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: paraclete (#1)

"He fails to realise that while his remarks are for local consumption he is reported all over the world"

Just the opposite. His remarks were intended for worldwide radical muslims. He fails to realize that those remarks cause some in the U.S. to cringe.

misterwhite  posted on  2015-12-03   8:49:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Vicomte13 (#17) (Edited)

I'm not longing for a Holy Crusade. Rather, I recognize that the enemy is not "youths", it's youths, and middle aged men and women, fired up by a religion.

I have to disagree with you on this one. Islam is not really a religion as much as it is a political system of government. Saying "Islam is a religion" is akin to saying "Nazism is a religion".

We are forced to fight because of the religion.

We are forced to fight because we are being attacked,and they will NOT quit attacking us until they win,or we play "whack a mole" every time one rears his head until there are no more heads to pop up. THEIR rules,not ours. We in the west are willing to make peace with them,but you can NOT make people with people unwilling to make peace with you.

The Nazis never pretended that any God gave them the universal right to slaughter any non-Nazis and to lie in treaties and break contracts at will, simply because they were Nazis.

Of course they did. They were the Master Race. God created them to rule the world. Or so they claimed.

Which means that the problem is ISLAM. Not "religion".

We are basically saying the same thing here,but from different POV.

So WHEN you finally go fight Islam, you MUST do it with a theology as well as weapons. Otherwise you lose.

And here is where your train leaves the track. The only way to defeat them is to kill everyone you find until they quit popping up in front of you. You are not going to convert them to Catholicism at the point of a gun any more than they are going to convert you to Islam at the point of a gun.

The purpose of a war is to defeat and kill your enemies,not adopt them as pets to be house trained. All you are suggesting is swapping one insane fantasy for another. WAIT! I take that back. What you are suggesting is Catholic Jihad. You ARE their mirror image and wish to wage Holy War.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2015-12-03   8:52:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Vicomte13 (#17) (Edited)

The Nazis never pretended that any God gave them the universal right to slaughter any non-Nazis and to lie in treaties and break contracts at will, simply because they were Nazis. But Allah of Islam DOES.

Nazis did have some concept of divinity, beside trying to restore pagan Germanic religion, they believed in the God of Nature, that blesses the strong and brave.

They looked at Islam quite sympathetically as a religion of warriors.

So sneaky Pete was right when he wrote: "Of course they did. They were the Master Race. God created them to rule the world. Or so they claimed. "

A Pole  posted on  2015-12-03   9:10:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: A Pole (#21)

Fair enough. Naziism was a religion.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-12-03   10:25:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Vicomte13 (#16)

I see.

Muslims are growing and their belief is growing stronger while Christians are becoming weaker and becoming more secularized or less serious in their religion. It seems to be who's going to have a stronger advantage in the War, a few people on the internet who do not represent the majority aside. Something strong is brewing, and has been at it for quite a while now, it will release and pop everyone from their safety technological bubble.

ebonytwix  posted on  2015-12-03   16:00:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Vicomte13 (#17) (Edited)

What do you think of the Planned Parenthood incident? People say it's on the same terms with what just happened.

ebonytwix  posted on  2015-12-03   16:03:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: cranky (#18)

Besides, once Øbama is gone, the other two co-equal branches of government will magically reappear, assert their authority with various checks and balances and stop any efforts to roll back what Øbama started.

Am wishing site had a thumbs up or like button.

Spot on.

Dead Culture Watch  posted on  2015-12-03   16:27:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: misterwhite (#19)

He fails to realize that those remarks cause some in the U.S. to cringe.

Or to get angry, the only people in the US cringing from his remarks are his fellow republicans.

Trump is an old style politician, any publicity is good publicity, it keeps him in front and his opposition off the front page. The only thing Trump is concerned about is having the attention of voters, in this phase he can say anything, it is all hot air, once he eliminates a few opponents he can use a less scattergun approach

paraclete  posted on  2015-12-03   16:35:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: sneakypete (#20)

Islam is not really a religion as much as it is a political system of government. Saying "Islam is a religion" is akin to saying "Nazism is a religion".

Perhaps we have to be more precise Islam is ultimate nazism or religious nazism.

It has the same premise, one race taking precedence over all others, one race to rule the world. To become a member of that race you have to mindlessly repeat a few words and do what you are told.

Nazism was a religion, it was a death cult. It's God was the Furher. Nazism used black garbed soldiers; SS, to enforce its edicts and its thought police; the Gestapo, Islam has its shock troops, black garbed Daesh, and of course, the thought police; the Taliban. The government of both is totalitarian one head; the Furher, or the Caliph.

For Christianity to defeat this it has to understand what true christianity is, the antithesis of this. You are right catholicism will not defeat it because catholicism is the reason it arose in the first place. The secularisation of christianity by the roman state created the vacuum that allowed Islam to arise

paraclete  posted on  2015-12-03   16:53:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Vicomte13, tomder55, CZ82, GarySpFc, TooConservative, *Islamic caliphate expansion* (#9)

And we are at war, whether we would be or no, because our enemies have attacked us, continue to attack us, and will make no peace.

They will make no peace because they are intoxicated by the Devil.

We fight or we are conquered. They die or we die. I prefer they die.

I hate war and so I want it over. That means winning. Prolonging war prolongs the agony, extends the killings, makes it worse and worse and worse.

The way to end this war swiftly is to throw our support behind Russia and France, and assist them in obliterating ISIS. That means that Assad survives and we lose our argument in Syria. So be it.

Quite a huge shift for you. Before the Paris attacks just serving in the Military was 'evil and serving Satan.' I digress.

You know I am no longer Catholic, but I did not throw the 'baby out with the bathwater.' There is justification for Western Nations to engage ISIS but not in way you and Trump want to do it which would ensure massive deaths of innocent blood (non-combatants). Such targeting of civilians would be pre- meditated murder and I'm sure some Bishop who supports Trump will sit down with him this weekend and show him over a 1,000 years of scholarly works which will hopefully set his ship straight.

You are Catholic so you should know the following. And I believe Western nations have justification to fight ISIS:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, in paragraphs 2302- 2317, authoritatively teaches what constitutes the just defense of a nation against an aggressor. Called the Just War Doctrine, it was first enunciated by St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD). Over the centuries it was taught by Doctors of the Church, such as St. Thomas Aquinas, and formally embraced by the Magisterium, which has also adapted it to the situation of modern warfare. The following explanation of Just War Doctrine follows the schema given in the Catechism.

Just War (2307-17)

All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war. Despite this admonition of the Church, it sometimes becomes necessary to use force to obtain the end of justice. This is the right, and the duty, of those who have responsibilities for others, such as civil leaders and police forces. While individuals may renounce all violence those who must preserve justice may not do so, though it should be the last resort, "once all peace efforts have failed." [Cf. Vatican II, Gaudium et spes 79, 4]

As with all moral acts the use of force to obtain justice must comply with three conditions to be morally good. First, the act must be good in itself. The use of force to obtain justice is morally licit in itself. Second, it must be done with a good intention, which as noted earlier must be to correct vice, to restore justice or to restrain evil, and not to inflict evil for its own sake. Thirdly, it must be appropriate in the circumstances. An act which may otherwise be good and well motivated can be sinful by reason of imprudent judgment and execution.

In this regard Just War doctrine gives certain conditions for the legitimate exercise of force, all of which must be met:

"1. the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

2. all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

3. there must be serious prospects of success;

4. the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition" [CCC 2309].

The responsibility for determining whether these conditions are met belongs to "the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good." The Church's role consists in enunciating clearly the principles, in forming the consciences of men and in insisting on the moral exercise of just war.

The Church greatly respects those who have dedicated their lives to the defense of their nation. "If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace. [Cf. Gaudium et spes 79, 5]" However, she cautions combatants that not everything is licit in war. Actions which are forbidden, and which constitute morally unlawful orders that may not be followed, include:

- attacks against, and mistreatment of, non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners;

- genocide, whether of a people, nation or ethnic minorities;

- indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants.

Given the modern means of warfare, especially nuclear, biological and chemical, these crimes against humanity must be especially guarded against.

In the end it is not enough to wage war to achieve justice without treating the underlying causes. "Injustice, excessive economic or social inequalities, envy, distrust, and pride raging among men and nations constantly threaten peace and cause wars. Everything done to overcome these disorders contributes to building up peace and avoiding war" [CCC 2317]. The Church has no illusions that true justice and peace can be attained before the Coming of the Lord. It is the duty of men of good will to work towards it, nonetheless. In the words of the spiritual dictum, we should work as if everything depended upon our efforts, and pray as if everything depended upon God.

https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/just_war.htm

It's 1945. I have the bomb and 20/20 hindsight. I'm Harry Truman. I drop it, just like he did. With hindsight. Because you can atone for your sins once you've won the war.

Sounds very antinomian to me. Would not suggest following your own advice. You should listen to your Church on this one. They have it right. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water...I did not. You guys got a lot of things right.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-12-03   17:09:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: ebonytwix (#23)

Muslims are growing stronger because they are growing more NUMEROUS. THEY are having babies. The whites are not.

Offsetting the rise of the Muslims is the rise of the Africans and Hispanics. They're both more and more Christian, and that offsets the rise of Islam.

The dying White West is becoming more and more Muslim through immigration, but Black Africa is more and more Christian, and Latin America is burgeoning and taking over White North America.

Christian civilizations are more civilized, organized and, over time, have a better rule of law than Muslim countries. Africa was left a mess by colonization and decolonization, but Christian Africa is growing steadily now that the immediate post-colonial strongmen have mostly passed.

So there is hope.

The Hindus are not getting weaker and are not ceding ground to the Muslims.

And Communist China MAY evolve into Christianity (just as South Korea has), but it certainly won't become Muslim. The Chinese are not going to give up beer, and they CAN'T give up pork without mass starvation ensuing.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-12-03   17:13:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: redleghunter (#28) (Edited)

Sounds very antinomian to me. Would not suggest following your own advice. You should listen to your Church on this one. They have it right. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water...I did not. You guys got a lot of things right.

Well, see, here's the problem. Every day the Japanese were in China, about 10,000 people died as a result, many thousands of them quite brutally. Those Chinese people dying were civilians, completely innocent.

By using the atomic bomb, especially with hindsight, I will IMMEDIATELY break the back of the Japanese Empire, forcing them to surrender in 26 days. That's 260,000 Chinese dead.

I have incinerated about 140,000 people, on two days, and on those same two days, the sons and fathers of those people killed 20,000 Chinese.

The war ended in 26 days because I dropped the bomb.

Now suppose I hadn't. Was Japan going to surrender in 26 days WITHOUT the atomic bomb? No. Not even close. Would the war have gone on for two weeks longer than it did? Yes. Most certainly.

For every 14 days the war continued, another 140,000 Chinese died at Japanese hands - the equivalent of what we killed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

But the Chinese were completely innocent: the Japanese invaded their country. The Japanese were guilty. The ones abroad were conquerors. The ones at home were helping them conquer.

And this is just the Chinese. The Japanese were also in Burma, in Korea, holding Western prisoners in the most horrible of conditions.

Why should thousands and thousands more completely innocent Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese and Americans and Brits and Laotians die, all to spare the lives of Japanese?

There is no reason.

The analysis of the Catholic Church is simple, but it is too simple, because it presumes to value the lives of the attacker the same as the lives of the defenders, and because it completely ignores the lives of the people the attackers are killing every day.

By slaughtering 140,000 people who were cogs in a war machine, we saved millions. It would have been immoral to not drop the atomic bomb and end the war.

The Catholic Church and I disagree, and the Catholic Church is wrong on this.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-12-03   17:25:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: redleghunter (#28)

Before the Paris attacks just serving in the Military was 'evil and serving Satan.' I digress.

You didn't digress. You are trying to make a point.

Serving in OUR military, NOW, under THIS regime, with ITS purposes, with what IT does, and what THIS country does NOW - all of the babykilling, and aggressive warmaking with no willingness to actually WIN - yeah that's serving Satan.

Doesn't have to be, but it is.

That doesn't mean that the evil abroad and at home cannot be fought, though. The Third Reich prosecuted regular murderers along with Jews. Just because the police were still prosecuting murderers didn't make them "good" - they were still slaughtering Jews.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-12-03   17:56:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: paraclete (#27)

Perhaps we have to be more precise Islam is ultimate nazism or religious nazism.

I'm not sure that is entirely accurate,but I sure can't argue with the direction it leans.

Nazi's had a huge racial element,and Muslims hump goats and just don't care. Choosing which one is the worse is a lot like trying to decide if you want the gas chamber or the electric chair. IMNSHO,true believers in both serve their highest purpose as food for maggots and worms.

It has the same premise, one race taking precedence over all others, one race to rule the world. To become a member of that race you have to mindlessly repeat a few words and do what you are told.

There is where you are mistaken. Islam really and truly don't give a damn what race you are,as long as you are willing to enslave yourself to their leaders,you are good to go. Hell,they don't even care if you are lying when you claim to convert to Muslim. All they care about is you are willing to say the right words and pretend to be Muslim,and to make yourself their slave. They care nothing about your "soul" (whatever the hell THAT is),they want to own your ass.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2015-12-03   19:04:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: sneakypete (#32)

They care nothing about your "soul" (whatever the hell THAT is),they want to own your ass.

I think you could say that about both Nazism and Islam. Islamics do care what race you are, they share a hatred of jews with nazi. Thing is that the presense of these islamics is giving an excuse for the rise of nazism again in Europe and we could see that elsewhere as an ultra right response to muslim behaviour, certainly the attitudes Trump espouses have nazi overtones

paraclete  posted on  2015-12-03   19:24:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: paraclete (#33)

certainly the attitudes Trump espouses have nazi overtones

Trump espouses the same thing I do. He and I look right down the same sight line. If you want to address Trumpiish attitudes and Trumpism, feel free to address me.

There is nothing remotely Nazi about what Trump or I say.

Let's be clear about what the Nazis were and where they came from. They were bitter-ender nationalists whose belief in the mystic nature of the German people was so high, that they could not accept that Germany had been defeated in World War I. They could not accept it, and therefore they could learn nothing from the defeat. Instead of acknowledging that their militarism had laid them low, the Nazis sought a scapegoat: Surely true Germans could never have been defeated...so they must have been BETRAYED! By WHOM? Well, obviously by the Jewish moneylenders, the stealing gypsies, the morally debased homosexuals. The untermenschen had conspired to betray great Germany, but VEE vill make it all right. VEE vill hunt zem out und make zen PAY for vat they have done! The morning vill come ven der world ist mein, Tomorrow belongs to me!

There is nothing of that in Trump and me. Nothing. There's no scapegoat responsible for our decline. No, it has been our own leadership. The problem with illegal immigrants is not that they're Hispanic. It's that they're ILLEGAL. The nation cannot afford to bear them, and won't continue to. Wall. Deportation. The writ of American law, duly passed by Congress, will once again run in America.

This is not Naziism. It's not even a cousin of Naziism. There's no xenophobia here. Trump has been married to foreign women and has international children. It's not a matter of "hating the other", or hating anybody. It's a matter of re-establishing the rule of law concerning the border and employment and social support in America. Legal immigrants have the right to be here, the right to work and, if they fall on hard times, to be supported by the American taxpayer for a time while they get back on their feet. Illegal immigrants don't have the right to even BE here, let alone work and obtain social benefits. We cannot afford it. We have 22 million illegals in America...and a 16% underemployment rate, The American workforce is about 150 million people. What is 16% of 150 million? That's why we have massive underemployment: jobs that Americans and legal immigrants should fill are filled by illegals. Ignoring the problem does not work: the damage is ongoing.

Trump is saying that it's time to stop it, and he has said how he will. It doesn't involve concentration camps and gas chambers. It involves a Border Wall, incentives to leave, and disincentives for Americans to hire. That's all.

And that's not Naziism. Not even a little bit.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-12-03   19:58:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Vicomte13 (#30)

What you just outlined is the principle of proportionality.

In order to justify the means to an end you would need to know 140,000 Chinese were dying. We know that now but not then I'm sure.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-12-03   20:19:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Vicomte13 (#29)

I thought it was the opposite? Subsaharan Africa becoming more Muslim? How's North Africa's Islamic stride doing?

Oh, here's news.

"Dozens Of Kyrgyz Villagers Leave For Syria" Wow. ISIS has very good silver tongues, I suppose?

ebonytwix  posted on  2015-12-03   20:19:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: ebonytwix (#36)

Dozens Of Kyrgyz Villagers Leave For Syria" Wow. ISIS has very good silver tongues, I suppose?

Creating more jobs than Obolo.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-12-03   20:29:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: ebonytwix (#24) (Edited)

What do you think of the Planned Parenthood incident? People say it's on the same terms with what just happened.

Apples and oranges really.

Spent some time on another forum on this subject.

To be an obedient Muslim you must follow the example of Muhammad and Quran. Problem is there were two Muhammads. The Mecca Muhammad was tolerant of Christians and Jews. He needed their support he was not in power. Once he conquered Medina he became the Medina Muhammad. He had power and a growing army. He dropped the tolerance and replaced it with conquest and submission. That's the Muhammad of Medina, of the Qur'an Muslims must follow to be truly obedient.

Exact opposite for Christians. Christ did not command conquest. When a supposed Christian goes on a shooting rampage they are being disobedient.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-12-03   20:37:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: redleghunter (#38)

I agree.

Most Mecca Muslims are gradually becoming Medina Muslims, and they are turning more radicalized each day.

Here's some (unrelated) news, they want to get rid of federal planning for Planned Parenthood and Obama wants to veto it! REALLY? He's going to ignore terrorism but put his cape on women's rights to spread their legs open and abort their "mistakes"? disgusting.

ebonytwix  posted on  2015-12-03   20:43:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: paraclete (#33)

Thing is that the presense of these islamics is giving an excuse for the rise of nazism again in Europe and we could see that elsewhere as an ultra right response to muslim behaviour, certainly the attitudes Trump espouses have nazi overtones

That's something that has been worrying me,also. There is a law of nature that says for every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction,and this could very easily get ugly on a Biblical scale

None of us like to admit or even think about it,but we all have a hidden monster lurking inside of us,just looking for the justification to burst loose.

And it really does seem like Islam is foolishly trying to get that monster to come out and play.

Which proves they are insane because you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out who is going to win big and who is going to lose big in a contest because one group of people that dream of dying for THEIR God,and another group of people who dream of killing for THEIR God. Especially in this day of automatic weapons,helicopter gun ship,cluster bombs,etc,etc,etc.

IF the Mullahs get their way,I predict that within 10 years the only place you will see a Muslim is on old news reels. There might be a few left,but they will be quiet about it.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2015-12-03   20:46:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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