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Religion
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Title: Trump Knocks Carson as a Seventh Day Adventist as Iowa Polls Shift
Source: The Fiscal Times
URL Source: http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/ ... Day-Adventist-Iowa-Polls-Shift
Published: Oct 26, 2015
Author: Eric Pianin
Post Date: 2015-10-26 13:19:52 by Hondo68
Ping List: *2016 The Likely Suspects*     Subscribe to *2016 The Likely Suspects*
Keywords: not a real Christian?, Hillarys Apprentice
Views: 1654
Comments: 15

© Scott Morgan / Reuters

Until now, Donald Trump and Ben Carson have been content to co-exist as the two Republican “outsiders” dominating the presidential campaign scene.

Together, the bombastic billionaire real estate executive and the eerily soft-spoken former neurosurgeon have shared about half of the overall Republican support in the presidential sweepstakes while the other candidates have languished with single digit showings in the polls. But as Trump and Carson prepare for another crucial Republican presidential debate in Boulder, Colorado on Wednesday, the gloves are definitely coming off.

Related: Carson steals lead from Trump in key state of Iowa: survey

With two new polls showing Carson surging ahead of Trump in Iowa, Trump has begun lashing out with the same tactics he has used effectively against former Florida governor Jeb Bush earlier this year – saying that Carson lacks the energy and negotiating smarts to be president and that he is too soft on immigration. “Carson is lower energy than Bush,” Trump declared during a Jacksonville, Florida rally on Saturday. “I don’t understand what’s going on.”

Carson immediately retorted in Iowa that “My energy levels are perfectly fine,” noting that he often spent as many as 15 to 20 hours in the operating room during his career as a nationally renowned surgeon. In an obvious reference to Trump’s showboating, combative political style, Carson added that “jumping up and down and screaming” doesn’t qualify one to be president.

During an appearance on NBC News’ Meet the Press today, Carson said that Trump and other critics often mistake his soft-spoken manner as a sign of a lack of energy. “I have plenty of energy,” he said. “But, you know, I am soft-spoken. “I do have a tendency to be relaxed. I wasn't always like that. There was a time when I was, you know, very volatile. But, you know, I changed.”

Over the weekend, Trump also veered into more treacherous political territory – and may have offended the state’s politically active evangelical Christians -- by singling out Carson’s Seventh-day Adventist faith and suggesting that it somehow puts his chief rival on the religious fringes when contrasted with Trump’s more “middle of the road” Presbyterian faith.

“I’m Presbyterian,” Trump said on Saturday in Jacksonville. “Boy, that’s down the middle of the road, folks, in all fairness. I mean, Seventh-day Adventist I don’t know about. I just don’t know about it.”

Carson angrily demanded an apology. He also suggested during an interview on Fox News Sunday that Trump’s outbursts might be a sign of desperation, especially his attack on Carson’s religious faith after complaining two months ago that Carson had improperly questioned his own faith.

Back in September, Carson caused a stir when he credited his faith for his success in life and contrasted that with Trump, who had said that he never asked God for forgiveness and refused to cite his favorite Bible verse. Carson later apologized.

“He went a little ballistic on that, so it seems a little interesting that he would now be doing that,” Carson said. “You know, I really refuse to get in the mud pit. You know, Hillary [Clinton] was actually right when she said the Republicans are there trying to destroy each other. I really think that was a huge mistake in the last [presidential election] cycle, and I’m certainly not going to get into that no matter what anybody says.”

Evangelical voters make up a substantial part of the Iowa’s Republican base, and it’s a group that Trump has had difficulty wooing. Why he called out Carson on being a Seventh Day Adventist and further offending evangelicals more generally is hard to fathom.

By Sunday, Trump was back-pedaling on the controversy, even while refusing to apologize to Carson for having raised the topic in the first place. Questioned by George Stephanopoulos of ABC News’ This Week on why he even brought up the subject, Trump sputtered, “I just don’t know about that particular religion.”

“I would never say bad about any religion,” Trump said. “I said, ‘I don’t know about it.’ That’s not an insult.”

For a front-running candidate who lives and breathes polling results and who has been riding the crest of an anti-establishment movement in his party, Trump suddenly has something to worry about.


Poster Comment:

Trump NYC Christians

Yes, it's former NYC mayor Rody Giuliani in drag having his "breasts" shamelessly violated by "Apprentice" tycoon Donald Trump.


At least they don't openly worship Satan, like LDS Mitt.
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#1. To: hondo68 (#0)

I know about the Seventh Day Adventists, Donald.

They believe that the Sabbath Day is Saturday, not Sunday, so they conduct their services on that day. They do not think that God ever changed the day.

Also, they do not eat pork or other unclean animals, or drink alcohol, or use caffeine. Many are vegetarians.

They are Sola Scripturalist Trinitarian Protestants whose origins date from a specific moment: 1863.

They are young-Earth creationists, believing in the six literal days of creation.

A substantial portion of Seventh Day Adventists are Black.

Now as to the Presbyterians. They too are Sola Scripturalist Protestants, Calvinists by origin.

They eat pork and don't keep the Saturday Sabbath.

There was a time when they did not drink, but that time has passed.

The religion has moderated considerably in modern times. Like all of the major 16th Century Reformation-Era Western religions: Catholicism, Lutheranism, Reformed Calvinism and Presbyterianism, they have a history of horrific bloodshed and evil in their past.

Most Presbyterians are white, and of British or Ulster Irish origins.

So, those are the differences on paper.

On the ground, the Seventh Day Adventists are a dynamic, growing, emotional church. Presbyterianism is a drying, dying husk of a "Mainline Protestant" Church.

I myself, as a Catholic outside looking in, find the Adventist zeal to be admirable. I find the lack of modern Presbyterian zeal to be symptomatic of the spiritual weakness of old-style Protestantism, and I find the history of the Presbyterian Church to be pretty deplorable.

So, on balance, I would say that Donald Trump's white, Scottish Presbyterian attack on Black, sincere Adventism has highlighted religion, and when the religions are compared, Seventh Day Adventism is a more zealous and moral form of Christianity than Presbyterianism, and without the baggage of utterly disgraceful history that the Presybterians bear along with every other Western Church of the Reformation Era.

Trump's attack on the Seventh Day Adventists, from his Presybterian pulpit, reminds me of the barbarism committed against Catholic Irish by Scottish Presbyterians in the not-very-distant past, and has racial overtones to it as well: the decaying white Church attacking the vibrant Black Church.

The effect of Trump's attack on me is to look more favorably on Carson, and less favorably on Trump.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-10-26   13:42:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: hondo68, tomder55, A K A Stone, BobCeleste, Don, liberator, CZ82, *Religious History and Issues* (#0)

By Sunday, Trump was back-pedaling on the controversy, even while refusing to apologize to Carson for having raised the topic in the first place. Questioned by George Stephanopoulos of ABC News’ This Week on why he even brought up the subject, Trump sputtered, “I just don’t know about that particular religion.”

“I would never say bad about any religion,” Trump said. “I said, ‘I don’t know about it.’ That’s not an insult.”

For a front-running candidate who lives and breathes polling results and who has been riding the crest of an anti-establishment movement in his party, Trump suddenly has something to worry about.

Trump singled out 7th Day Adventists for a reason.

Of course that will become apparent in the upcoming debate. I'm really surprised why people don't see it.

Most 7day Adventists are conscientious objectors. They serve in the military but in non combatant roles as medics.

So Trump knows what he is doing. He will challenge Carson on being a Commander in chief while holding a no combat faith.

The attack will go somewhat like this:

"Ben Carson wants to be C in C and send your children to war, a war he would refuse to fight."

That's how it will go down.

"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly."---Romans 5:6

redleghunter  posted on  2015-10-26   13:47:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: redleghunter (#2) (Edited)

Most 7day Adventists are conscientious objectors. They serve in the military but in non combatant roles as medics.

He will challenge Carson on being a Commander in chief while holding a no combat faith.

Nixon was a Quaker another conscientious objector religion, and he was elected president as a Republican twice. That argument is very weak.


The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul

Hondo68  posted on  2015-10-26   14:07:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: hondo68 (#0)

Neocon Bill Kristol Says Ben Carson is 'Next Best' For President Since Dick Cheney Won't Run

“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul

In a Cop Culture, the Bill of Rights Doesn’t Amount to Much

Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts

Deckard  posted on  2015-10-26   14:22:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: hondo68 (#3)

Yes it may be a weak argument but Trump will make Carson dialogue on the matter. Carson will give a very good answer no doubt. But the genie will be out of the bottle.

Personally? I think Carson's faith is what we need for the Commander in chief job. He would no doubt lean heavily on the Just War Theory in his assessments before sending men and women in harm's way.

Now Carson needs to be clear on the difference between conscientious objection and pacifism. 7th Day Adventists are not pacifists. They do believe in the inherent right of self defense.

"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly."---Romans 5:6

redleghunter  posted on  2015-10-26   14:26:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Vicomte13 (#1)

I myself, as a Catholic outside looking in, find the Adventist zeal to be admirable.

Adventists are nice people and are polite to all Christians, but philosophically, they consider Catholics to be the enemy. They consider the Catholic church to be the keeper of the Sunday Sabbath which is the mark of the beast. they consider the papacy to be the Anti-Christ.

Of course, that never really comes up in typical worship. Just as the idea that most of a Calvinist congregation is predestined to go to Hell never really comes up.

My main problem with Adventists is the way they treat vegetarianism as a religious ritual, even they they admit that it is not wrong to eat meat. All members are encouraged to be vegetarians in a way that goes beyond health concerns. It reminds me of tree hugging liberals.

Obama has played at being a president while enjoying the perks … golf, insanely expensive vacations at tax-payer expense. He has ignored the responsibilities of the job; no plans, no budgets, no alternatives … just finger pointing; making him a complete failure as a president

no gnu taxes  posted on  2015-10-26   14:38:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Deckard (#4)

Like Sgt. Shultz, Trump knows nothing!


The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul

Hondo68  posted on  2015-10-26   15:28:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: no gnu taxes (#6)

Adventists are nice people and are polite to all Christians, but philosophically, they consider Catholics to be the enemy. They consider the Catholic church to be the keeper of the Sunday Sabbath which is the mark of the beast. they consider the papacy to be the Anti-Christ.

My main problem with Adventists is the way they treat vegetarianism as a religious ritual, even they they admit that it is not wrong to eat meat. All members are encouraged to be vegetarians in a way that goes beyond health concerns. It reminds me of tree hugging liberals.

Oh, I know. Protestant anti-Catholicism is old hat to Catholics in America, especially to those of us who have spent any time in the South.

The Presbyterians used to hate us. The Adventists think they do too. Truth is, the Adventists are mostly Black, and as an historically oppressed minority, they haven't been in a position to actually DO anything to Catholics. But there's a long and bitter history of violence against Catholics on the Presbyterian side (in Europe).

So the philosophical bit about Adventists thinking the Catholics are their enemy is a yawn. Catholics know that Protestants and the Orthodox are all in error too. Obviously - if we thought each other was right, we'd leave our religion to join the other one!

I think Adventist vegetarianism is a noble thing. They don't want to hurt animals. Someday, God tells us, the world will be vegetarian again, as it once was before the Fall. The lion will eat straw and lay down with the lamb, and a little child will lead them all.

If the Adventists strive to return to Eden, before man killed and ate animals, I think that is to their moral credit. But it's awfully hard to preserve good health and be a vegetarian without supplements.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-10-26   15:40:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: hondo68 (#0)

I have to admit that the only thing that makes me uncomfortable about Ben Carson is his passiveness. I'm worried that once he got into office the pressure might get to him and finally cause him to pop his cork.

Sometimes it seems like he has got a blank Quaalude stare,and his voice is so calm and even it almost sounds like a recording.

I'd worry a lot less about him if he would sometimes show some passion.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-10-26   16:35:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: redleghunter (#2)

Most 7day Adventists are conscientious objectors. They serve in the military but in non combatant roles as medics.

I have my doubts about Draft-Dodging Donald mentioning any of that.

"Ben Carson wants to be C in C and send your children to war, a war he would refuse to fight."

That's how it will go down.

LOL! How many deferments did "The Donald",who graduated from a military school,get? Wasn't it 3?

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-10-26   16:39:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: sneakypete (#9)

Sometimes it seems like he has got a blank Quaalude stare,and his voice is so calm and even it almost sounds like a recording.

I too have wondered if he's on tranquilizers.


The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul

Hondo68  posted on  2015-10-26   16:55:50 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Vicomte13 (#8)

Truth is, the Adventists are mostly Black

Not really.

There are 2 types of Adventist churches from what I've seen. There are the all black churches which have the typical charismatic type of worship you see in other black churches. Maybe you are more familiar with these.

Then you have the other Adventist churches which are attended by whites, Latinos, Asians, and some blacks, too. These have the typical subdued type worship you see in most churches.

There are some Latino Adventist churches I have seen which fall into the second type, but they only differ in the sense the services are held in Spanish.

Obama has played at being a president while enjoying the perks … golf, insanely expensive vacations at tax-payer expense. He has ignored the responsibilities of the job; no plans, no budgets, no alternatives … just finger pointing; making him a complete failure as a president

no gnu taxes  posted on  2015-10-26   19:19:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: no gnu taxes (#12)

Well, I guess it doesn't matter anyway. Trump didn't say anything so inflammatory that I'm going to dump him for Carson, so Carson stands in the wings as a good alternative to Trump, or maybe a truly great Surgeon General...or Supreme Court justice.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-10-26   20:24:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Vicomte13 (#13)

I would have no problem with Trump, Carson, or Cruz. I would prefer Cruz, but he looking very second tier right now.

Obama has played at being a president while enjoying the perks … golf, insanely expensive vacations at tax-payer expense. He has ignored the responsibilities of the job; no plans, no budgets, no alternatives … just finger pointing; making him a complete failure as a president

no gnu taxes  posted on  2015-10-26   20:46:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: hondo68 (#11)

I too have wondered if he's on tranquilizers.

He says he used to be a lot more passionate but has matured. I would expect he would credit his faith, his wife, and wisdom from long life and a medical career.

Still, Carson's idea of a stump speech just isn't likely to rouse any crowds the way a typical pol does. It does work well with the sweet voters of Iowa. Carson is dominating the Iowa GOP women's vote, most strongly among evangelical women.

I don't see another state where Carson is likely to have as much appeal as Iowa. It's an Iowa thing.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-10-26   20:47:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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