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Religion
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Title: The KJV in Order
Source: KJV
URL Source: [None]
Published: Oct 20, 2015
Author: Vicomte13
Post Date: 2015-10-20 23:50:09 by Vicomte13
Keywords: None
Views: 5668
Comments: 60

A K A Stone, I told you I would stop posting until I could fully answer you, and I meant it.

I'm not going to recriminate. You said plenty that made my blood boil, but I've decided to take it as sincere concern for what I've said, as opposed to simply trying to bait me.

You've said many times that I don't provide Scripture. I have, but to the extent that I have not provided enough. this e-mail will remedy that.

I've agreed to use the KJV, and just that. No Hebrew, no Greek, no outside interpretive Scripture translations. The KJV has no footnotes, sp there will be no wrangling between us over the authority of footnotes that are not there. It's just the text, and you've said you accept this text as authoritative.

I know that the original KJV contained the Apocrypha also, but I'm not going to use the Apocrypha (even though it's part of the full KJV), because that will simply be another opportunity for a pointless fight. God's law is all in the Protestant canon, so I'll leave that issue be also.

So here we are with the KJV text. I'm going to go through it starting with Genesis 1, and note each place where there is something of particular interest that bears, directly or indirectly, on our discussion of economics and law.

I have to do this because of your very aggressive and hostile tone. You've said that I don't quote Scripture, but I did, at length, so I can see that every single point I make has to be specifically backed by a citation right in the text. Now, I've noticed that you don't write that way at all, and neither does anybody else. But because the things that I say do not fit your tradition, you hold me to a much higher standard than you hold yourself or your allies. You can simply positively assert your tradition as though it is a fact - without citing a word of Scripture - as though the fact that it's your tradition ESTABLISHES it as scripture. But if I do not point cite each and every point, I'm a false prophet, twister of scripture, doing Satan's work, and every other damned thing.

Fine then, I shall meet you all the way, and provide a point cite to every single point I make.

But you won't let it go at that either. Once you have Scripture that demonstrates the point, you'll reject my argument anyway, claiming that I am "twisting Scripture" or "taking it out of context".

The only way I can avoid THAT charge is to present ALL of Scripture - every single thing that is important to the topic, in order from the beginning to the end of Scripture, so that nothing is left out. This is the only way to defeat the charge of "taking it out of context" - to provide the FULL context.

I did something close to that before, and you never even acknowledged it. I think that what I am doing is a fool's errand. YOU are not going to accept what the Scripture says, because the full weight of Scripture, fully deployed, is contrary to your tradition.

So what you will do is what you have already done: you will ignore what I've written, and then say that I'm not reading something right, and that I've presented things out of context.

I know that I cannot win from the beginning of this exercise. I know that you will not be persuaded by Scripture itself. I'm going to go through the full dress battle anyway, line by line, because it deserves to be said, and if you will not be persuaded, others will.

From my perspective, once God's laws and examples have been laid end-to-end, the principles are very clear and there isn't much left to debate, because God is clear.

So, that's what I am going to do, the source I'm going to use, how I'm going to use it, why I am doing it just this way - all the while acknowledging that in the end I do not believe I can win in your court, because I think you have prejudged the case. But maybe seeing God's word laid out for you end to end will break open the prison door of your heart.

"And so we sail, in the confident expectation of a miracle." - the Duke of Medina Sidonia

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning..."

Note that the word is "in", and not "AT". "At the beginning..." would mean a single point of time. "At 10 o'clock", or "At the opening bell", but "In the beginning..." refers to an indeterminate span of time.

If you said "At the start of the first inning" of a baseball game, we would think of the first pitch, but if you said "In the first inning", we would recognize that the subject event occurred during a span of at bats by both sides.

This is important, because some traditions assert that the Bible says that God created everything from nothing in an instant, that it's right there in the first sentence. Actually, that is NOT there in the first sentence. The text does not speak of a point of time - AT the beginning - AT the start - but of a span of time - IN the beginning - IN the first inning. Also, the text does not say that God created the whole universe from nothing. That's a traditional addition to the text. The text itself says that God created "the Heaven" and "the Earth".

We discover in Genesis 1:8 that "the Heaven" is specifically the firmament that God made "in the midst of the waters", in other words the sky. And in 1:10, that :the Earth" specifically means "the dry land", and NOT "the planet".

Does it matter? Yes it does. It matters because in the Creationist/Evolutionist debates, many creationists go too far and assert that the Scriptures say things that they do not say. What they say, using the definitions in the text, is that during the beginning God made the sky and the dry land. Then Genesis goes on after that to describe the filling up of the dry land with things, and the waters with sea creatures.

And so we come to the first commandment, given to the lifeless darkness: "Let there be light!" Genesis 1:3. In 1:5 Genesis will define "Light" as "Day", and darkness as "Night".

And that is where we will stop for tonight. Genesis 1:1 does not support the excessively detailed claims that some make. It is a more general summary.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 21.

#5. To: Vicomte13 (#0)

And so we come to the first commandment, given to the lifeless darkness: "Let there be light!" Genesis 1:3. In 1:5 Genesis will define "Light" as "Day", and darkness as "Night".

To whom was God speaking when He said "Let there be light."?

SOSO  posted on  2015-10-21   11:20:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: SOSO (#5)

To whom was God speaking when He said "Let there be light."?

Scripture doesn't say.

I could speculate, drawing on the Hebrew, but this is a KJV- Only thread, so I will refrain.

The KJV is the ground to which I have agreed to limit myself, here, in order to have a conversation on ground acceptable to Stone.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-10-21   11:30:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Vicomte13 (#6)

I could speculate, drawing on the Hebrew, but this is a KJV- Only thread, so I will refrain.

The KJV is the ground to which I have agreed to limit myself, here, in order to have a conversation on ground acceptable to Stone.

There is nothing wrong with using Hebrew or whatever to shed some light on the subject. Don't refrain yourself.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-10-21   20:10:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: A K A Stone (#15)

There is nothing wrong with using Hebrew or whatever to shed some light on the subject. Don't refrain yourself.

Alright then, I will do so, after presenting the KJV first.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-10-21   23:21:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 21.

#24. To: All (#21) (Edited)

Alright then, I will do so, after presenting the KJV first.

On second thought, no. The English has to stand on its own, for reasons that you yourself stated in earlier posts. Did God make the Scripture available to us directly, or are we forever dependent on a few bickering linguists to tell us what God said? If the latter, then we have simply transferred access to God - assuming that Scripture really does give us access to God - from priests to translators. The only reason I agreed to go KJV-Only was specifically to avoid disputes that arise from "going off the text". The Hebrew can't really explain anything if there are disputes over the meanings and nuances of every important word in the Hebrew (and there are).

We are far better off sticking with the text and discussing the English itself. If we're really curious about this, we need to ask "What is water?"

The word "liquid" does not appear in the KJV, because the word was only used in English to refer to sounds until the early 1700s, when it began to refer to fluids. The first known written appearance of "liquid" in English as "fluid" was in 1709. (Source: Online Etymology Dictionary)

"Fluid" as a noun was first recorded in English in the 1660s. 50 years after the KJV, so it isn't used either.

If you cannot use either the words "liquid" or "fluid" to describe liquids and fluids, what word is left in English? Water.

Michael Weisberg of Stanford University has a paper on the point entitled "Water is NOT H2O" (Source: http://www.phil.upenn.edu/~weisberg/papers/waterfinal.pdf)

He is, of course, right. Oxygen was discovered in 1774. Hydrogen in 1766. Amadeo Avogadro (of Avogadro's Number fame) discovered the formula H2O in 1811.

Water is not H2O. Before 1811, "water" meant liquid. Before about 1709 - 100 years after the KJV - "water" was the only generic word for "liquid" or "fluid" in English.

In nature at standard (planet earth) temperature and pressure, there are very, very few things that are liquids. Most things are solids of some sort. Air is a fluid, but it is usually invisible, unless there is smoke or dust suspended in it. There is only one element that is a visible liquid on planet earth at room temperature: mercury, but mercury is not something that was ever found in standing pools of water. It was discovered by accident from the processing of one mineral: cinnabar, which was crushed and heated to make the bright red pigment vermillion. In the process of the heating, liquid mercury appears. And the Greeks called this hyrdrargyrum - water-silver.

The only liquids that an ancient Hebrew would be likely to see would be water, urine, blood, milk, wine, olive oil, sweat and semen. We can probably think of a few more if we work at it. And every one of these liquids has its own name in Scripture. The generic word for "liquid" in English before 1700 was "water".

And of course from a scientist's eye view, AIR is a fluid.

So when we read "water above/water below" doesn't have to mean H2O, because in English in 1611, "water" meant "liquid", including, but not limited to, drinking water and sea water.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-10-22 09:27:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 21.

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