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Religion
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Title: The KJV in Order
Source: KJV
URL Source: [None]
Published: Oct 20, 2015
Author: Vicomte13
Post Date: 2015-10-20 23:50:09 by Vicomte13
Keywords: None
Views: 5685
Comments: 60

A K A Stone, I told you I would stop posting until I could fully answer you, and I meant it.

I'm not going to recriminate. You said plenty that made my blood boil, but I've decided to take it as sincere concern for what I've said, as opposed to simply trying to bait me.

You've said many times that I don't provide Scripture. I have, but to the extent that I have not provided enough. this e-mail will remedy that.

I've agreed to use the KJV, and just that. No Hebrew, no Greek, no outside interpretive Scripture translations. The KJV has no footnotes, sp there will be no wrangling between us over the authority of footnotes that are not there. It's just the text, and you've said you accept this text as authoritative.

I know that the original KJV contained the Apocrypha also, but I'm not going to use the Apocrypha (even though it's part of the full KJV), because that will simply be another opportunity for a pointless fight. God's law is all in the Protestant canon, so I'll leave that issue be also.

So here we are with the KJV text. I'm going to go through it starting with Genesis 1, and note each place where there is something of particular interest that bears, directly or indirectly, on our discussion of economics and law.

I have to do this because of your very aggressive and hostile tone. You've said that I don't quote Scripture, but I did, at length, so I can see that every single point I make has to be specifically backed by a citation right in the text. Now, I've noticed that you don't write that way at all, and neither does anybody else. But because the things that I say do not fit your tradition, you hold me to a much higher standard than you hold yourself or your allies. You can simply positively assert your tradition as though it is a fact - without citing a word of Scripture - as though the fact that it's your tradition ESTABLISHES it as scripture. But if I do not point cite each and every point, I'm a false prophet, twister of scripture, doing Satan's work, and every other damned thing.

Fine then, I shall meet you all the way, and provide a point cite to every single point I make.

But you won't let it go at that either. Once you have Scripture that demonstrates the point, you'll reject my argument anyway, claiming that I am "twisting Scripture" or "taking it out of context".

The only way I can avoid THAT charge is to present ALL of Scripture - every single thing that is important to the topic, in order from the beginning to the end of Scripture, so that nothing is left out. This is the only way to defeat the charge of "taking it out of context" - to provide the FULL context.

I did something close to that before, and you never even acknowledged it. I think that what I am doing is a fool's errand. YOU are not going to accept what the Scripture says, because the full weight of Scripture, fully deployed, is contrary to your tradition.

So what you will do is what you have already done: you will ignore what I've written, and then say that I'm not reading something right, and that I've presented things out of context.

I know that I cannot win from the beginning of this exercise. I know that you will not be persuaded by Scripture itself. I'm going to go through the full dress battle anyway, line by line, because it deserves to be said, and if you will not be persuaded, others will.

From my perspective, once God's laws and examples have been laid end-to-end, the principles are very clear and there isn't much left to debate, because God is clear.

So, that's what I am going to do, the source I'm going to use, how I'm going to use it, why I am doing it just this way - all the while acknowledging that in the end I do not believe I can win in your court, because I think you have prejudged the case. But maybe seeing God's word laid out for you end to end will break open the prison door of your heart.

"And so we sail, in the confident expectation of a miracle." - the Duke of Medina Sidonia

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning..."

Note that the word is "in", and not "AT". "At the beginning..." would mean a single point of time. "At 10 o'clock", or "At the opening bell", but "In the beginning..." refers to an indeterminate span of time.

If you said "At the start of the first inning" of a baseball game, we would think of the first pitch, but if you said "In the first inning", we would recognize that the subject event occurred during a span of at bats by both sides.

This is important, because some traditions assert that the Bible says that God created everything from nothing in an instant, that it's right there in the first sentence. Actually, that is NOT there in the first sentence. The text does not speak of a point of time - AT the beginning - AT the start - but of a span of time - IN the beginning - IN the first inning. Also, the text does not say that God created the whole universe from nothing. That's a traditional addition to the text. The text itself says that God created "the Heaven" and "the Earth".

We discover in Genesis 1:8 that "the Heaven" is specifically the firmament that God made "in the midst of the waters", in other words the sky. And in 1:10, that :the Earth" specifically means "the dry land", and NOT "the planet".

Does it matter? Yes it does. It matters because in the Creationist/Evolutionist debates, many creationists go too far and assert that the Scriptures say things that they do not say. What they say, using the definitions in the text, is that during the beginning God made the sky and the dry land. Then Genesis goes on after that to describe the filling up of the dry land with things, and the waters with sea creatures.

And so we come to the first commandment, given to the lifeless darkness: "Let there be light!" Genesis 1:3. In 1:5 Genesis will define "Light" as "Day", and darkness as "Night".

And that is where we will stop for tonight. Genesis 1:1 does not support the excessively detailed claims that some make. It is a more general summary.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 2.

#1. To: A K A Stone (#0)

Ping to the start.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-10-20   23:50:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Vicomte13 (#1)

Acknowledged.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-10-21   0:13:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 2.

#13. To: A K A Stone (#2)

To continue, the order of events is:

Day 1: "Let there be light" (Gen 1:3), "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night." (Gen 1:4)

Day 2: "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." (Gen 1:6) "And god called the firmament Heaven." (Gen 1:8)

Day 3 is particularly important, because two main developments occur: the appearance of dry land (called "Earth" by God), and the creation of the first biological life, in the form of plants.

This is conveyed thus: "And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place,, and let the dry land appear" (Gen 1:9) God defines some words: "And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas" (Gen 1:10).

So, there you have it. When you read the word "Earth" in Scripture, when God uses that word, he does not mean the planet Earth. "Earth" is the dry land. The Seas are not part of the Earth. The waters are the Seas, and they are the opposite of the Earth, separated from the Earth. That is what those words mean. They do not mean the planet, because the planet contains the Heaven (skies) AND the Earth (dry land) AND the Seas. "Earth" is what WE call the planet, but God never (ever) uses the word that way in the Bible.

So, when we later read that something happened "throughout the Earth", we must remember that this doesn't mean "everywhere on the planet". It happened "throughout the land", without it being clear where those boundaries lie. Luke tells us later that Augustus Caesar decreed that all the world should be taxed (Luke 2:1), if we read "world" as meaning the planet, we are making the same error. "World" is never defined in Scripture the way that "earth" is. (I could go into the meaning of the Greek word "kosmos", but we're doing KJV-Only, so we just have this word "world".)

If the word "world" in the Bible means what it does to us: the planet Earth, then the Bible contains a lie. Caesar Augustus never proclaimed that the whole planet should be taxed. He proclaimed taxation of the Roman Empire. He didn't proclaim, or attempt to tax, Celtic Britain or Scythian Russia. He never tried to tax Babylon, and he didn't declare that it ought to be taxed. In Luke's case, he never defines the word "world", but we see from that usage that "world" does NOT mean what WE mean by "world", because if it does, then the Bible contains a direct falsehood, and states something that never happened.

In the case of Genesis and the Hebrew Old Testament, God took care of the problems of language for the key words "Day", "Night", "Heaven", "Earth" and "Seas". Those words are specifically defined by God, as written out above. So that is what those words mean, specifically - they do NOT mean what WE mean by them. The Earth in the Bible is the land. It's not the planet. God never revealed in Scripture that we live on a planet. WE are concerned with that, but HE was not concerned to tell us that. It was not important to his story.

To continue with the storyline, "God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth, and it was so."

This is the beginning of living things. Some, who want to avoid the Creation/Evolution debate, have noted that the emergence of life in Genesis is the same as has been revealed by science. But that's not true. The problem is very simple: Earth isn't a planet in Scripture. It - and the plants that flourish upon it - were created BEFORE THE SUN.

The Sun is not created until Day 4. So, the earth flourishes with plantlife, made by God - not in darkness but in light, that doesn't come FROM anywhere. The light exists by God's will.

Then on the fourth day, AFTER God makes all the plants, he makes the sun as the source of the light of day, and the moon and stars as the sources of light for the night.

And once that happens, there is never TRULY night again, for even in the nighttime, there is still light - from the moon, from the stars.

Big Bang theory has everything flashing into existence in an instant - Genesis doesn't discuss this. Evolutionary theory has the stars first, then the planets, and then life in the seas, first. Genesis concerns itself only with the land (Earth) and waters (Sea) and sky (Firmament), of this place. It doesn't speak of the rest of the visible universe, other than to say that it was put up there overhead AFTER the plants were all created.

The Creation of Genesis, as described in the English of the KJV, cannot be squared with scientific theory of the Big Bang and evolution of stars, planets and life. They are in violent conflict on key details.

The Hebrew, both in words and hieroglyphs, can be, but the KJV English cannot be.

This does not concern me, and you've never given me any indication that it concerns you either. I mention it so that I can give an example of a place where there is tension between the KJV text and both scientific AND religious people. What Genesis says does conflict with scientific belief. And the religious have added many things to their Genesis beliefs that are not in Scripture, including some things that are actually contrary to what Scripture actually says.

I have no urge to go smashing other people's traditions. But when traditions that are false stand in the way of something that is necessary and true, then the traditions do need to be smashed.

There is nothing necessary in this Genesis 1 subject for your or me. It does have a political effect, though: what do we teach kids in the schools?

But I will leave that debate to people who are passionate about it. From a moral standpoint, it barely matters.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-10-21 19:11:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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