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Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: The Economics of Jesus
Source: Jesus, as quoted in the Gospels, Acts and Revelation
URL Source: [None]
Published: Aug 11, 2015
Author: God
Post Date: 2015-08-11 22:54:03 by Vicomte13
Keywords: None
Views: 4305
Comments: 56

"You are my son, the beloved. In you I delight." - the Father (Mk 1:22, Lk 3:22) This is my son, the beloved, in whom I delight." - the Father (Mt. 3:17)

MORAL: God the Father establishes, out loud before a crowd, Jesus' sonship and his delight in him. What follows is delightful to God. (And what opposes the Son is not delightful to God.)

"Go away, Satan, for it is written YHWH your God shall you be worshipping, and to him alone shall you be offering divine service." - Jesus (Mt. 9:10) "Go away behind me, Satan! It is written YHWH your God shall you be worshipping, and to him alone shall you be offering divine service." - Jesus (Lk. 6:8)

MORAL: God alone is to be given divine service. Later, Jesus will return to the same theme when he says "You cannot serve both God and money."

"Take these things away from here and do not be making my Father's house a house for a merchant's store." (Jn 2:16)

MORAL: This is the first of two times that Jesus will reject commerce in the Temple grounds.

"He who is believing in him is not being judged, yes he who is not believing has been judged already, for he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. Now this is the judging: that the light has come into the world, and men love the darkness rather than the light, for their acts were wicked. For everyone who is committing bad things is hating the light and is not coming to the light, lest his acts may be exposed. Now he who is doing the truth is coming to the light that his acts may be made manifest, for they have been wrought in God. (Jn 3:18-21)

MORAL: Those who don't do what Jesus says hate the light and the truth and is not coming to the light. Jesus will repeat this theme later when he asks what good it does to say you follow him if you do not do what he says to do.

"Repent! for near is the kingdom of the heavens!" (Mt 4:17) "Fulfilled is the era, and near is the kingdom of God. Repent, and believe in the good news!" (Mk 1:15)

MORAL: If you're resisting what Jesus has to say, stop it now, be quiet, give up your bad ideas, believe in the good news, and follow him.

"Are you not saying that still four months is it and the harvest is coming? Look! I am telling you lift up your eyes and gaze on the countrysides, for they are white for harvest already. And he who is reaping is getting wages and is gathering fruit for life of the eon, that both the sower and the reaper may likewise be rejoicing. For in the case is the saying true, that one is the sower and another is the reaper. I commission you to reap that for which you have not toiled. Others have toiled, and you have entered into their toil." (Jn 4:35-38)

"The spirit of YHWH is on me, on account of which he anoints me to bring the good news to the poor. He has commissioned me to heal the crushed heart, to herald to captives a pardon, and to the blind the receiving of sight; to dispatch the oppressed with a pardon, to herald an acceptable year of YHWH." (Lk.4:18-19)

MORAL: The Spirit of the Lord is upon Jesus to do what? To bring good news to whom? To pardon whom? The poor, the crushed of heart, the captives, the oppressed, the blind - the very people whom men look down upon with contempt. Who is not on that list? The contemnors, the creditors, the captors, the oppressors. This theme will be repeated again and again. Remember it every time you revile the poor. You're not on Jesus' side whenever you do that.

"Follow me!…No need have the strong of a physician, but those having an illness. I did not come to call the just, but sinners." (Mk 2:14,17) "Follow me, ,,, Those who are sound have no need of a physician, but those who have an illness. I have not come to call the just, but sinners, to repentance." (Lk 5:27,31) "Follow me!…"No need have the strong of a physician, but those having an illness. Now go, learn what this is: Mercy am I wanting, and not sacrifice. For I did not come to call the just but sinners." (Mt 9: 12- 13)

MORAL: Follow Jesus. Later, he will say "What good does it do you to follow me if you don't do what I say.

"Truly, truly I am saying to you that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall be hearing the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear shall be living. For even as the Father has life in himself, thus to the Son also he gives to have life in himself. And he gives him authority to do judging, seeing that he is a son of mankind. Marvel not at this, for coming is the hour in which all who are in the tombs shall hear his voice, and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging." (Jn 525-29)

MORAL: Jesus has the power to judge, and he will judge the dead based on what they DO. He has already said to FOLLOW HIM, and that he is looking for mercy, and is there to bring good news to the poor, the crushed of heart, the sick. And he's said that the harvest will be reaped by those who did not sow it. And he has warned that those who are doing bad things hate the light and won't come to it. We will see it made manifest in the pages to come that serving money is a bad thing, that the lack of care for the poor, downtrodden, prisoner, etc. - the people "the just" love to revile - will bring judgment and a bad end.

"Search the scriptures, for in them you are supposing you have life of eons, and those are they which are testifying concerning me, and you are not willing to come to me that you may have life. Glory from men I am not getting. But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. O have come in the name of my Father, and you are not getting me. If another should be coming in his own name, his you will get. How can you believe, getting glory from one another, and are not seeking the glory which is from God alone.? Be not supposing that I shall be accusing you to the Father. He who is accusing you to the Father is Moses, on whom you rely. For if you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he writes concerning me. Now if you are not believing his writings, how shall you be believing my declarations." (Jn 5:39-47)

MORAL: Jesus here refers directly to the Scriptures written by Moses, the Torah, in which are contained all of the many precepts of God regarding everything, including provision for the poor, widow, orphan, and sick. You cannot reject the laws from God written down by Moses and yet believe Jesus. If you reject what God said through Moses in the Torah, you reject Jesus. You cannot believe in Jesus without accepting the writings of Moses. They are inextricably linked. What Moses writes about not killing, Jesus means that when he speaks of harm. What Moses writes about truth, Jesus means that when he speaks of truth. What Moses writes about economics and provision for the poor comes directly from God, and it is what Jesus enacts and means. The two are inseparable.

Regarding picking grain to eat while passing in a farmer's field, and healing on the Sabbath:

"Did you not read what David does when he hungers, and those with him, how he entered into the house of God and they ate the bread on the altar of YHWH, which he was not allowed to eat, neither those with him, except the priests only? Or did you not read in the law that on the sabbaths the priests in the sanctuary are profaning the sabbath and are faultless? Now I am saying to you that a greater than the sanctuary is here. Now if you had known what this is: Mercy am I wanting, and not sacrifice, you would not convict the faultless, for the Son of mankind is lord of the sabbath… What man of you will there be who will have one sheep, and if ever this should be falling into a pit on the sabbaths, will not take hold of it and raise it? Of how much more consequence, then, is a man than a sheep! So that it is allowed to be doing ideally on the sabbaths. …Stretch out your hand." (Mt. 12:3-13; substantially repeated in Mk 2:25-3:5 and Lk 6:1-11)

MORAL: To not work on the sabbath was a religious duty, a law of God, and yet even in the face of a religious duty, Jesus instructs that the duty of mercy to the sick and desperate is higher: "I desire mercy not sacrifice". Notice that his audience already knows and acknowledges that when they have an economic interest involved - one of their sheep in a pit - they may perform work on the sabbath to save their property (and to prevent its suffering). Yet they are hard-hearted when it comes to the plight of another man who is oppressed by illness, that work should be done to heal HIM on the sabbath, in contravention of the law of God. Jesus is saying that it is not contravention of the law of God to break the sabbath to do good, to heal. And note well that it is not theft for the hungry apostles, walking through the field, to pluck off heads of grain to eat either. So, when we read what Jesus further has to say about the poor, the oppressed, etc., we must remember God's view that acts of mercy supersede even the commandments of the law.

What follows is repeated by Jesus in different places - on the plain, on the mount - and slightly varying forms. It is the crux of his moral and economic argument, and his statement demanding that you do as he says to do, and as he does - or else. We will focus on the economic components:

"Happy are the poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. Happy are those hungering now, for you shall be satisfied. Happy are those lamenting now, for you shall be laughing. Happy are you whenever men should be hating you, and whenever they should be severing from you and reproaching you and casting your name out as wicked, on account of the Son of Mankind. You may be rejoicing in that day, and frisk, for look! your wages are vast in heaven, for according to the same manner did their fathers to the prophets. Moreover, woe to you who are rich, for you are collecting your consolation! Woe to you who are filled now, for you shall be hungering! Woe to you who are laughing now, for you shall be mourning and lamenting! Woe to you whenever all men may be saying fine things of you, for according to the same manner did their fathers to the false prophets. But to you who are hearing I am saying: Love your enemies. Be doing ideally to those who are hating you. Bless those who are cursing you. Pray concerning those who are traducing you. To him who is beating you on the cheek, be tendering the other also. And you should not be preventing him who is taking away your cloak from taking your tunic also. Now you, be giving to everyone who is requesting, and from him who is taking away what is yours be not demanding it. And, according as you are wanting that men may be doing to you, you also be doing to them likewise. And if you are loving those loving you, what thanks is it to you? For sinners are also doing the same. And if you should ever be lending to those from whom you are expecting to get back, what thanks is it to you? For sinners are also lending to sinners, that they may get back the equivalent. Moreover, be loving your enemies, and be doing good, and be lending, expecting nothing from them, and your wages will be vast in the heavens, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind [even] to the ungrateful and wicked. Become, then, full of pity, according as your Father is also full of pity. And be not judging, and under no circumstances may you be judged; and be not convicting, and under no circumstances may you be convicted: be releasing, and you shall be released; be giving, and it shall be given to you: a measure ideal, squeezed down and shaken together and running over, shall they be giving into your bosom. For the same measure with which you are measuring will be measured to you again. … For an ideal tree is not producing rotten fruit; again, neither is a rotten tree producing ideal fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. For not from thorns are they culling figs, neither from a thorn bush are they picking grapes. The good man out of good treasure of his heart is bringing forth that which is good, and the wicked man out of the wicked treasure of his heart is bringing forth that which is wicked, for out of the superabundance of the heart his mouth is speaking. Now why are you calling me 'Lord! Lord!' and are not doing what I am saying? Everyone coming to me and hearing my words and doing them - I shall be intimating to you whom he is like. Like is he to a man building a house, who digs and deepens, and places the foundation on a rock. Now, at an inundation occurring, the river bursts through to that house, and it is not strong enough to shake it, because it is ideally built. Now he who hears, and does not, is like a man building a house on the earth without a foundation, to which the river bursts through, and straightaway it collapses; and the crash of that house came to be great." (Jesus' Sermon on the Plain; Lk:20-38, 43-49)

MORAL: It speaks for itself. Look to who Jesus speaks first. Look to whom he next gives dire warnings of divine war. Look at the standard of judgment: as you measured, so shall it be measured out to you. Look what he said about lending, about releasing. And look at what he said about the need to actually do what he said. To call him Lord and to do not what he said is useless. He will not bless that.

Read it again and contemplate it in light of what has come before. Jesus is revealed to be the Son of God by God directly. He rebukes Satan for suggesting service to anything but God. He calls upon people to cease sinning, to cease following THEIR ways but to turn back to God, and to do that, he says to follow him. He says flatly that those who follow him will reap what they did not sow. To the mind of the man not following God this may seem wrong, but who made the grain grow and the field? God. And God gives to whom he will, and God gives to his beloved Son, and to those who follow him.

And to whom does Jesus bring his message? The ill, the oppressed, the downtrodden. Whom does he say are blessed and happy? The impoverished. But whom does he warn already have all they will have? The rich. Class warfare! No, there is no warfare: human arms are too short to box with God. Not warfare, judgment. Doom. And a way out: follow him, by doing what he SAID. Now read the Sermon the Plain to see what he SAID, all of those things pertaining to money, to economics, to lending, to pity - and remember what he says about those who claim he is Lord but who don't do what he says.

And remember where he speaks of the law of Moses, for he will uphold that again. Jesus here is speaking to poor Jews on a plain in the countryside. He warns the rich that they will be losers if they do not do the economic things he has said, their ruin will be great, but rulers are not Jesus' audience here. Rulers were Moses' audience, though, and Moses had much to say from God to them.

When we return later to the Torah, then, to see the laws for the officials, we must remember that Jesus has ratified and upheld all of that law, and indeed quoted that very law to rebuke Satan. Therefore, we are fools, defying God, if we simply wave our hand and pretend that all of those laws don't apply to us - so that we don't have to measure out and lend in our private capacity, but also as God directed the people and the King as Israel before. Jesus has already upheld what Moses said before, and he will do it again.

There is no escape from any of this.

If you are one who says he believes in Jesus, why are you resisting him? Is it that your desire to serve money is greater than your trust that God will really provide as he said? Repent of that and follow Jesus, or admit you do not believe, and cannot and will not believe because you do not trust and will serve money instead. Be cold or hot, but not lukewarm. Because if you are lukewarm and cry out "Lord! Lord!" Lord, I believe in you, you already have your answer, right there from Jesus: "Why are you calling me 'Lord, Lord' and not doing what I am saying?"

So repent, and follow, and stop kicking at the goad.

This is a good place to break for today. Tomorrow we will resume on the Mount, and Jesus will extend his remarks and beat us each over the head with these same ideas again. If you are trying to avoid what he says, or divert it into something that you don't HAVE to do, that's true, you DON'T have to repent and follow him. You CAN do as you please. Just realize that he has told you that if you call on him as Lord, it does you no good at all unless you do as he says and bear good fruit, that he judges by good or bad deeds, just as he said, and that while you can evade obedience, you cannot evade judgment at the end of it all.

Repent and follow, Come to the light, don't hide in the darkness. Change your mind so that it matches what Jesus has said in this sermon.

He will say a great deal more on the subject, and if you love God and learning you will bask in the light. If you are resisting and rebelling at what he has said above poor and rich, about lending and serving and loosening debts, you're trying to serve something other than God. Repent and follow Jesus. Bear better fruit.

More tomorrow.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 39.

#1. To: Vicomte13 (#0)

The Economics of Jesus

Is there any evidence Jesus had a grasp of simple algebra, supply and demand, or the multiplier effect. If not, he had no knowledge whatsoever of economics.

rlk  posted on  2015-08-11   23:11:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: rlk (#1)

Is there any evidence Jesus had a grasp of simple algebra, supply and demand, or the multiplier effect. If not, he had no knowledge whatsoever of economics.

He created economics.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-08-11   23:12:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: redleghunter (#2)

Is there any evidence Jesus had a grasp of simple algebra, supply and demand, or the multiplier effect. If not, he had no knowledge whatsoever of economics.

He created economics.

Prove it without resorting to reference to mythology or unsubstantiated personal belief.

rlk  posted on  2015-08-12   14:23:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: rlk (#5)

Prove it without resorting to reference to mythology or unsubstantiated personal belief.

You do not believe the TaNaKh (OT) and NT are God's inspired Words. So you from the gate throw out the objective evidence. Then by throwing out personal belief and experience you throw out of evidence millions of people who have knowledge of God.

So right back at you. Where's your proof or evidence there is no uncreated Creator/Designer? Start there.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-08-12   16:56:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: redleghunter (#6) (Edited)

You do not believe the TaNaKh (OT) and NT are God's inspired Words. So you from the gate throw out the objective evidence. Then by throwing out personal belief and experience you throw out of evidence millions of people who have knowledge of God.

Experience takes place in the real physical world, not in the minds of some hysterical morons. Belief does not require sceintific investigation or corroboration which, although it may be attractive, makes it suspect.

Millions of beople believed the world was flat at one time. That didn't make it so.

rlk  posted on  2015-08-12   23:57:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: rlk (#7)

Experience takes place in the real physical world, not in the minds of some hysterical morons. Belief does not require sceintific investigation or corroboration which, although it may be attractive, makes it suspect.

Millions of beople believed the world was flat at one time. That didn't make it so.

Christ was manifest in the physical world. So no imagination there. Again you try to impeach the evidence without even considering it.

Yes, by observation most once thought the world was flat. But if they closely studied the OT they would know this would be inaccurate. As they would now knowing by modern evidence the world is not flat. That example does not help your assertions.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-08-13   7:36:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: redleghunter, A K A Stone, Too Conservative (#8)

To return to the subject matter, in the opening post, we proceeded from the beginning of Jesus' ministry in order up to the Sermon on the Plain, focusing on what Jesus had to say about economics. Much of the early material concerned the Father establishing Jesus' authority, and Jesus upholding the Torah.

On the plain, Jesus specifically addressed who would be blessed, and who would be cursed, and God's blessings skewed to the poor, while his curses skewed to the rich. We ended with Jesus making the stern point: if you don't actually do what he says, you are not really his follower, and it does you no good to call on him and say that you are. Christ is not a smorgasbord: he gave a narrow path, with many components. They parallel the Torah very closely. The ritual of the Torah may be gone with the Temple, but the moral law of the Torah remains in force and applies to Christians, just as Jesus said. To say and do otherwise is not to follow him. Even if you say you do, if you don't do what he says, HE does not consider you to be his follower, because you don't do what he said. You built your house on sand, and down it goes in the flood.

This next passage contains much of the marrow of Jesus' economic teaching, his explicit linkage of his own teachings to the law. It overlaps the Sermon on the Plain in some of the content, though the words are often expressed differently. It was certainly given in a very different place. This one says it was given on a mountain. The other says it was given on a plain. So we have two sermons of Jesus containing the same moral message. This is what Jesus actually walked around teaching. And it mostly concerns economics.

Jesus was speaking to common people, like you and me. He still is. Matthew, at 4:23-6:1) records what he said.

"Happy, in spirit, are the poor, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens. Happy are those who mourn now, for they shall be consoled. Happy are the meek, for they shall be enjoying the allotment of the land."

Let's pause for a second. Jesus has just blessed the impoverished. And Jesus has just specifically said that it is the meek, the peaceful and retiring, who will be allotted THE LAND. He hs speaking of the physical earth, not JUST the kingdom of the skies. The land will be allotted (by God) to the peaceful. Those who TAKE the land by force and dominate it by force will lose the land, and it will be given to the poor, the meek and the landless.

"Happy are those who are hungering and thirsting for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied."

Recall: righteousness is what Jesus calls righteousness. He has already implied righteousness to poverty and meekness and suffering, above. and in the Sermon on the Plain. And he has implied wickedness to wealth and domination on the Plain, and will do so again shortly on the Mount.

"Happy are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy. Happy are the clean in heart, for they shall see God. Happy are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. Happy are those persecuted on account of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens. Happy are you whenever they should be reproaching and persecuting you and falsifying, saying every wicked thing against you on my account. Rejoice and exalt, for your wages are vast in the heavens. For that they persecute the prophets before you."

People have never liked to hear what God has to say about money. They want it to be easier than it is. Just believe God is, and you're good. That is what the Jews wanted to believe, and many Christians. Jesus says no. Some Christians say that everything that was in the law of God, all of those moral restrictions, were all abolished by the Cross. Jesus says no very specifically to that argument. He puts it to death.

"You should not infer that I came to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish but to complete. For truly I am saying to you, until the sky and the earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law until all should be occurring. Whoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called."

If you teach that the law of God does not apply to Christians because of the blood of the Cross, you are directly defying the express words of Christ on the subject. Did the sky and the land end with the crucifixion? No. Therefore not one word of the law ended either. It ALL applies, and if you teach it doesn't, you shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Want to be least in God's kingdom? Then teach that. Repent and accept Jesus at his word.

More later.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-08-15   15:05:29 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Vicomte13 (#9) (Edited)

blessings skewed to the poor, while his curses skewed to the rich.

An excellent recipe for pious pretentious Marxism when applied indiscrimantly and without serious further analysis. It opens the door to legitimizing resentment, jealousy, assumption of guilt, and punitive action toward those who work harder and more effectively than you do, which is right up your ally. You seek to be the center of attention and importance by shouting and raising a pious whip against productive members of society with one hand and a bible in the other.

Jesus was an economic asshole. So are you.

rlk  posted on  2015-08-15   16:16:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: rlk (#10)

If you disagree with Vic, then you are not in keeping with the third principle of the Bushito code:

III. Benevolence or Mercy:

A man invested with the power to command and the power to kill was expected to demonstrate equally extraordinary powers of benevolence and mercy: Love, magnanimity, affection for others, sympathy and pity, are traits of Benevolence, the highest attribute of the human soul. Both Confucius and Mencius often said the highest requirement of a ruler of men is Benevolence.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-08-16   2:17:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: redleghunter (#14)

Love, magnanimity, affection for others, sympathy and pity, are traits of Benevolence, the highest attribute of the human soul.

But not to the point where one becomes a rug for people to wipe their feet on.

rlk  posted on  2015-08-16   5:22:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: rlk (#15)

Love, magnanimity, affection for others, sympathy and pity, are traits of Benevolence, the highest attribute of the human soul. But not to the point where one becomes a rug for people to wipe their feet on.

Where in the literature in Bushito is this clause spelled out?

Where does it say such in the Bible.

You are providing your own interpretation. Based on what authority? Do you deem yourself a self proclaimed infallible authority?

redleghunter  posted on  2015-08-16   14:36:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: redleghunter, A K A Stone, GarySpFc, Too Conservative (#19)

We left Jesus on the Plane. Let's rejoin him on the Mount, where he again reiterates a very similar message. We have two sermons of Jesus to large crowds in different places. The two sermons are the two most extensive of Jesus' public preaching that are recorded for us. THIS is what Jesus was walking around saying to people.

The Sermon on the Mount is a bit longer than the Sermon on the Plain. As we are discussing the economics of Jesus, in some parts I will skip a portion of the sermon, that doesn't pertain to the subject matter. I will not, however, skip anything that is necessary for context.

I will also leave in everything that pertains to the three main themes we have seen develop so far: (1) To follow Jesus means to do what he says. (2) Jesus upholds the law and says it will be in force until the end of the world, and warns against teaching that it won't be. This is important because a substantial part of the law is economic. (3) Jesus blesses the poor and meek, and proclaims woe upon the rich.

It's late. I'll type out the pertinent portions of the Sermon on the Mount tomorrow.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-08-16   23:38:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: redleghunter, A K A Stone, GarySpFc, Too Conservative (#21)

Relevant Portions of Jesus' "Sermon On the Mount " (mt 4:23-8:1)

"Happy, in spirit, are the poor, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens. Happy are those who mourn now, for they shall be consoled. Happy are the meek, for they shall be enjoying the allotment of the land. Happy are those who are hungering and thirsting for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. Happy are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy. Happy are the clean in heart, for they shall see God. Happy are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. Happy are those persecuted on account of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens. Happy are you whenever they should be reproaching and persecuting you and, falsifying, saying every wicked thing against you, on my account. Rejoice and exult, for your wages are vast in the heavens. For thus they persecute the prophets before you.

You are the salt of the earth. Nw, if the salt should be made insipid, with what will it be salted? For nothing does it still avail except to be cast outside, to be trampled by men.

You are the light of the world. A city located upon a mountain cannot be hid. Neither are they burning a lamp and placing it under a peck measure, but on a lampstand, and it is shining to all those in the house. Thus let shine your light in front of men, so that they may perceive your ideal acts and should glorify your Father who is in the heavens.

You should not infer that I come to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill. For truly I am saying to you - till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring. Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching other men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever shluld be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens. " - Jesus

Before we move past this, we are going to look directly at it. First, Jesus has lighted a lamp here, and I am holding it up before you all: his words, direct, not mind. I am letting my light shine in front of men, you, and that light is the words of Jesus themselves, presented verbatim in the most literal form of word-for- word, consistent translation (by "consistent" I mean that each time that word appears in the Greek, it is translated by the same word in English, in this translation).

By doing this for you, I am performing an ideal act, and as the result of my acts here, you should be glorifying your Father in heaven. Jesus said the words, and I am reminding you of them, and I am doing so in a particular context, the very context in which he spoke them. With whom does this sermon begin? To whom is it addressed? The rich? The comfortable? The prosperous? The secure? The self-righteous? No. The poor, the suffering, the meek, those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. (And what is righteousness? Jesus has told us: to do the Father's will, by following him.)

Here, Jesus tells us point blank something else about following the Father and him: the law that God laid out before, in the Torah, is fully in force until the end of the physical world. Not until the cross. Not until the resurrection. Until the earth and sky pass away. Jesus modified many things that are in that law: he made all foods clean, he explained the purpose of the sabbath, he pronounced doom on the Temple and its priests, and God removed them, making it physically impossible for Jews to continue to perform the ritual sacrifices even if they wanted to. Yet even in those cases the law did not pass away. Rather, God made it impossible to obey, so that he, in turn, would not be obliged to fulfill the land promise inherent in the Sinai Covenant (which was not a covenant for eternal life, but for a farm in Israel).

Our atheistic reader her has called Jesus a Marxist and other epithets. Jesus is God. To the extent that what Marx said corresponds with what Jesus said, and in some places it does, Marx was right and in keeping with the Law. Where Marx departed from the law and taught killing to achieve an economic objective, he left Jesus and YHWH behind, disregarded many precepts, and became lost.

Jesus speaks of people reviling those who follow him on account of him. How many times on this very board have I been reviled as a "Marxist", a "socialist" and other words intended to express disgust and revulsion, specifically because I uphold every iota and serif of the economic law of God? Indeed, that is WHY I am reviled, BECAUSE I insist on God's full law in economics, just as others insist (correctly) that it applies to sexual behavior.

It does not bother me too much to be called names for simply speaking the unaltered words of God. Jesus promises a blessing to me for enduring that. But men who call themselves Christians should hold their tongues, lest they be before God salt of the earth that has lost its savor, and men who teach other men to disregard precepts of the law.

Indeed, we should all be learning the words of the law and of Jesus, and then applying them, all of them. And where they make us uncomfortable, acknowledge that that is because of our sinfulness, not because "Jesus was a Marxist". I quote Jesus and YHWH extensively and verbatim specifically so that it is HIM delivering the hard words of the law, not me.

So, we should stop being hostile to each other, and do what he says. Why? Because:

"I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and the Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

You hear that it was declared to the ancients "You shall not murder". Yet whoever should be murdering shall be liable to the judging. Yet I am saying to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the judging. Yet whoever may be saying to his brother, 'Raca!' [empty-headed], shall be liable to the Sanhedrin. Yet whoever may be saying 'Stupid!' shall be liable to the Gehenna of fire. If, then, you should be offering your approach present to the altar, and there you should be reminded that your brother has anything against you, , leave your approach present there in front of the altar and go away. First be placated toward your brother and then, coingm be offering your approach present."

So let us pause then. Are you a Christian? Is Christ the son of God, begotten of the virgin Mary by God the Father? Yes? Are you baptized in water and begotten again by the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit? Yes? Then we are brothers to Jesus, and sons of the Father, and we are brothers to each other. Let us not, then, strive bitterly with one another because we find ourselves at odds with God's laws, and with each other. By our nature we always have sin tugging at us, and we are always out of joint in some way with God and his laws. We must strive to get back in synch with God. And in the process we must make peace with one another.

Indeed, BEFORE we proceed on with the law, we MUST MAKE PEACE WITH ONE ANOTHER. Otherwise we are not listening to Jesus. This recounting of the law, of the economics of Jesus, is a present, to the world, from Jesus and the Father, but let's leave it before the altar and turn to address the hard words we have leveled at one another. And repent of them. And stop doing that. Then we can return to this altar and proceed forward at peace with each other, and to hear what the Teacher teaches us from the Father.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-08-17   20:27:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: redleghunter, A K A Stone, GarySpFc, Too Conservative (#22)

"Happy, in spirit, are the poor, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens. Happy are those who mourn now, for they shall be consoled. Happy are the meek, for they shall be enjoying the allotment of the land. Happy are those who are hungering and thirsting for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. Happy are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy. Happy are the clean in heart, for they shall see God. Happy are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. "

To whom is the kingdom of the heavens? The rich? The proud? The powerful? No: the poor.

To whom is the consolation of God? Those who have their reward already? No: those who mourn.

To whom is the ownership of the land? The strong? The conquerors? Those willing to fight for it and take it and dominate others to hold it? No: the meek.

Who will be shown mercy by God? The judgmental? The stern? The rigid? The haughty and merciless? No: the merciful. Indeed, each man shall be measured by the measure by which he measured, according to Jesus. The unforgiving will not be forgiven their sins. The merciless and stern will be treated mercilessly and sternly by God. Those who show mercy, who forgive, will likewise be shown mercy and forgiven by God.

Who are called the sons of God? Those who proclaim brotherhood with Christ through their religion? Those who strive and seek to dominate in matters of faith? No: the peacemakers. They shall be called the sons of God.

This is all to be taken absolutely literally, without turning to the left or to the right.

When history - American, European, Asian, African, Amerindian - is considered, men are violent conquerors, dominators of each other, merciless, proud. But God promises that the land will not be theirs, but the meek, and that his consolation will be with those who are broken and mourn on account of them.

But what if you are a haughty man, arrogant, proud, in favor of violence against those whom you deem unworthy; judgmental, merciless, and scorning the very idea of meek? Then you have set your face against God, and you do not walk with Jesus, and you will not be called a son of God. Jesus' complaint is against you, everything he preaches is against you. What should you do then? Your whole mind has been at odds with what he wants. You cherish the things he condemns and look down on those things that Jesus has said God cherishes. What then for you? He has a complaint against you, and he tells you what to do:

"You be humoring your plaintiff quickly while you are with him on the way, lest at some time the plaintiff may be giving you up to the judge, and the judge to the deputy, and you should be cast into jail. Truly I am saying to you: by no means may you be coming out thence till you should be paying the last quadrans."

Our arms are too short to box with God. God has a plan for life, including economic life, which is contrary to how we live and what we want. He makes that plan abundantly clear through his Law - and not a letter of that will pass away until the end of the world - and through Jesus' words and example. What are we to do? Stop resisiting God! Stop kicking at the goad! Hear the word of the Lord, listen to it, repent of everytihng in your belief system that contradicts a word of it, submit completely to the Law as given, make peace with God and walk with Jesus, a pace behind and to the left, and in step. Stop fighting God's will.

Indeed, "If your right eye is snaring you, wrench it out and cast it from you, for it is expedient for you that that one of your members should perish and not your whole body be cast into Gehenna. And if your right hand is snaring you, strike it off and cast it from you, for it is expedient for you that one of your members should perish and not your whole body pass away into Gehenna."

This is what is at stake. They eyes are greedy, the hands are grasping. But when they desire what exceeds God's grant, and when they grab and hold what exceeds God's permission, they are a snare. Cripple yourself, physically, rather than remain haughty in your pretension and be thrown into Hell. Or better still, repent! Turn away. Stop sinning, Follow Jesus and obey the law. Stop resisting the law. God would prefer you maim yourself physically - very literally - than that you should defy him and he throw you physically - very literally - into the fire of Gehenna. If you don't take what he says about maiming yourself literally to avoid sin, then unfortunately you risk having the sentence carried out on you very literally. And which is worse? To literally tear your eye out and be half-blind, or to succumb to the lust of the eyes and to burn? Jesus answered that. Now, tearing out your eyes and cutting off your hands is extreme, even crazy. Crazier, though, is to persist in defying God. Don't cut off your hand and tear out your eyes. Rather, repent and follow Jesus, and stop resisting God.

That includes ceasing to fight God's economic law. It is every bit as much a part of God's law as his law of sex. Don't resist it. Don't ignore it. Don't deride others for teaching it. Don't teach others to disregard it. Repent, submit and obey. The meek shall inherit the land and the kingdom of the skies. The resistant and the haughty shall inherit woe and fire.

Why :oathkeepers"? Why "solemn oaths", pledges of service to institutions that exceed the pledges of service that God himself wants? No!

"Again, you hear that it was declared to the ancients 'You shall not be perjuring, yet you shall be paying to YHWH your oaths.' Yet I am saying to you absolutely not to swear, neither by heaven, for it is the throne of God, nor by the earth, for it is a footstool for his feet, nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great king. Nor by your head should you be swearing, for you are not able to make one hair white or black. Let your word be 'Yes, yes.' 'No, no.' Now, what is in excess of these is of the wicked one."

If you think that solemn oaths are of importance, you are correct - they are sins, they are inspired by the wicked one, and they are contrary to the expressed commandment of Jesus. Oathkeeping is not good, for the taking of oaths is not good. And the demand that men swear oaths is evil. There is one standard of truth, and it always applies.

God requires a complete rethink about the world and the institutions by which men interact with one another. If an oath is required, there is a fundamental wickedness at the heart of that institution. For God himself has said not to swear oaths to anybody or anything. If some humans, then, demand that oaths be sworn, they are compelling a service that exceeds divine service. It is evil. Yes and No must suffice for man. To demand more is to engage in an evil act.

Do your traditions say otherwise? Then your traditions are evil. Jesus just said so. Do not resist, repent! Repent, and submit to the will of God. Stop sinning in this way, and stop demanding that other men sin in this way in exchange for something. Anything further is from the wicked one. If you refuse to accept this, you are setting your face against God. Stop it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-08-18   1:20:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Vicomte13 (#23)

Happy are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy.

Again and all through you use the word "happy".

Shame on you for not letting the readers that it is actually "blessed".

The readers may not have ever known that if I hadn't pointed it out.

Happy is not synonomoud with blessed.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-08-18   2:02:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: A K A Stone (#26)

Again and all through you use the word "happy".

Shame on you for not letting the readers that it is actually "blessed".

The word is "Makarioi". It is the word "makar", which means "happy". Of course, in Greek, as in Latin, or French, "happy", "lucky", and "blessed" are the same thing. It is a word that refers to bliss and good fortune.

If you prefer to see the word "Blessed" for makarioi, then by all means read the word as "blessed". If that further reinforces for you the authority of what Jesus is saying, then good - that is precisely the point. Jesus is God, so when I read that he proclaims happiness to the poor, woe to the rich, and you read that he proclaimes blessedness to the poor, but a curse upon the rich, we are seeing the same thing, using different words.

The words I am using are simply more exactly correct in Greek, but they amount to the same thing, given who is pronouncing the happiness/blessedness and woe/curse.

Jesus did not speak English. He probably wasn't speaking Greek either.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-08-18   9:32:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Vicomte13 (#32)

The words I am using are simply more exactly correct in Greek, but they amount to the same thing,

They don't mean the same thing.

Say happy means blessed in greek.

It doesn't in english.

Not a good translation.

Which is why I stick to the best translation. KJV.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-08-18   9:43:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: A K A Stone (#33)

Say happy means blessed in greek.

It doesn't in english.

Not a good translation.

Why would English translators be correct to take a Greek word and bifurcate it into two English words, when there is only one word in Greek? How would they know that "God intended" this meaning or that?

Although it is not the "best translation", I will nevertheless use the KJV because that is the only one you will accept.

So, I shall go back to the beginning of this whole enterprise and start over, repeating every word from Jesus using the KJV language.

You want one mile? I'll give you two.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-08-18   12:50:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: redleghunter, A K A Stone, GarySpFc, Too Conservative (#35)

Stone will have the KJV, therefore, that is what we will use.

Here, I go back to the first and subsequent posts that contained the words of Jesus or the Father, and republish the same texts, but this time in KJV format.

For those who wish to compare, the original published text was a mechanical translation. A mechanical translation in which each separate Greek word is rendered by a single corresponding English word each and every time that Greek word appears in the original text, and in which each English word in the lexicon has only one single Greek homologue. A mechanical translation makes the text itself a concordance, as one need only search the text for an English word, and every time that word appears in English it corresponds to the same Greek word. In this way, translator's bias is rendered almost moot. The only place where the translator really has any discretion is in the selection of the English word that corresponds to the Greek. But having made that selection, thereafter the translation is always consistent. So, if one disagrees with the translator's choice, one can simply search, find the English word, and then globally replace it in the text with the preferred word.

For example, Stone objects to rendering of the Greek word "markaryos" as "happy", insisting that it should be rendered as "blessed". He does so, because the use of the word "Happy" instead of "Blessed" stands out in certain famous traditional passages. It is a simple matter, then, to globally find the world "Happy" in English, and replace it globally with "Blessed" everywhere in the Biblical text, because the same Greek word appears in all places that "Happy" appears.

Now, some might object, asserting that in some places the word means "happy", and some places the word means "blessed". To assert such a think is to claim special revelation to one's self or one's translator, for there is only one Greek word for the thing that is expressed as two things in English, and the choice to render it "happy" in some places, and "blessed" in others has no basis in the actual Scripture or the original language, but is simply a theological choice of the translator to create, in English, a distinction and a potential theological difference where none whatever exists in the actual Greek Bible.

To me, this is important, because adding nuance that is not in fact there is, to my eyes, adding to Scripture - and has no basis.

A comparable example are the words "sky" and "heaven". There is in Hebrew precisely one word, and in Greek also. In English, is there a difference between "sky" and "heaven"? Yes. Does that difference exist in Hebrew, Greek, Latin or French? No. "Our Father who is in the Sky, holy is your name..." is the way that the Lord's Prayer begins in the original Greek, in Latin and in French.

If I say it that way in English - that God is in the sky - does that offend your sensitivities? Yes? Because you think that there is a difference between the mere physical sky and "heaven", another dimensional plane? Well, perhaps there is, and perhaps there is not. But the fact is that in ancient Hebrew and Greek - in the ACTUAL BIBLE - no such distinction exists, or CAN exist, because there is only one word: "hashamayim" in Hebrew, "ouranos" in Greek. One word, no nuance. In English there are two words, and there is nuance, but this nuance is an addition to the Christian theology added by English. It is not actually IN the Scripture at all. And maybe it is just entirely made up. For the translators - or you as an English speaker - to positively assert that there IS a difference between "heaven", where God is, and the sky above your head is to claim a special revelation, that you "know" there is a difference, because your language has two words, and you have come to think of these as two different things. But the Bible only has one word, in both testamenta. In the Bible, the distinction that you think exists doesn't exist at all, in either original language. God is in the Sky. Our Father, who is in the Sky. The stars are also in the Sky. One word. One single word. Not two. And no hint of two meanings either. Perhaps there is more than one sky - a second and a third sky, perhaps, with God in the third sky beyond the other two.

I'm dwelling on this a bit to make you each think about what you believe and what you think you know. Just because you are "sure" of it, and just because your tradition says it is so, and just because your language contains a distinction or a nuance, doesn't mean that what you believe is real, or true, or has any actual significance. It could simply be made up, and addition, an embellishment that isn't actually inspired. To positively assert, for example, that words one prefers that appear in some manuscripts but not others, are "actual Scripture" while the texts that don't contain those words are "not complete" is to assert special revelation that you do not, in fact, possess. No matter how passionate you are about your preferred text, if God has not come down and spoken to you face-to-face and told you that a particular manudscript is THE right one, you do not know that it is.

The mechanical translation I was using was translated from the Codex Vaticanus, the oldest (almost) complete text of the Scriptures. There was no picking and chosing in that case. Likewise, the KJV New Testament came from a manuscript, the textus receptus. The mechanical translation I would prefer to use for the Hebrew scriptures is the Leningrad Codex of the Massoretic Text.

It is easy to get lost in the weeds of scholarship, and debate such things that have no resolutions. But rather than debate that I am simply coming all the way over to the other side's position. I will use the KJV, and only the KJV, because then we don't have to have any more of this discussion or argument on this thread, and we can focus on (that version) of what Jesus said about economics.

There will be place where I know that the translation is muddled and imperfect - where things have been added and where they have been left out from what I believe the most authoritative manuscripts say - but that will only affect things at the margins. The main points will all be there.

KJV it is.

To have a break in the narrative, I'll start the repost of the Scripture in the message that follows.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-08-18   16:59:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: All (#36)

"It is amusing. It is awful. It is artificial." - King James II, commenting on the newly-constructed St. Paul's cathedral in London. Late 1600s.

So, he didn't like it?

For the KJV excerpts, I used the actual KJV, not the modern re-edit. All of those archaic spellings and forms are jarring, and they are not here and there. Nearly every word is different. We can indeed read it, not without difficulty, not without making adjustments. And that's just for the spelling.

The punctuation is also archaic. The KJV style of writing would get a D on a 7th grade writing assignment for run-on sentences, random capitalization, strange use of punctuation, lack of proper use of quotations, and just general wrongness.

Again, these are matters of form, but they are jarring, and punctuation makes a different. The lack of question marks in some places renders questions into statements and really changes meaning - that is, if the original meaning can be assumed at all.

My point in quoting King James II , three quarters of century after the KJV, is that when you read that, straight, it has meaning. All of those words have clear meaning in English today. And every one of those words means something different, often a counter-sense.

We can look up those words and discover their meaning…maybe. But we should remember that even the first dictionaries weren't printed for a century afterwards.

The translators of 1611 were not using dictionaries and scholarly tomes such as we have today. They did not have concordances and dictionaries with which to look things up. They had faith and tradition, they "knew" what it said, because they all knew what it said in Latin, and they carried with them the overlay of what they already knew it said, and what their theology told them it MEANT, as they "translated" "from Hebrew" and "from Greek". What they did was closer to a comparison of the Latin to the Greek, and to the Hebrew.

Even if one takes the position that a particular translation was divinely inspired and therefore error free, one has to recognize the limitations of any translation. And a four-hundred year old translation made by men in a different culture and a language that is really very different from ours (though readable, with effort) must be approached carefully. The words they chose meant something to them, but those very same words mean different things today, in many cases.

"It is amusing. It is awful. It is artificial."

If that were in the KJV, and I wrote "It is pleasant. It is stunning. It is artistic" somebody would scream that I was changing Scripture. But I would not be. That is what those words MEAN. That is what James said. He used words that today say "It's funny looking. It's terrible. It's fake." In their original form, read today, they seem to be a criticism. We sense that it's probably not a criticism, so we seek other words.

If we're going to use the KJV, and we will, we have to be careful about what the words mean.

Example: in English, grace and charity are literally the same word. They are two forms of the same word. Grace is the Germanic English pronunciation of the Greek word "charis". "Charite" is the French pronunciation of that same word. In Middle English, Old English Germanic and Norman French parallels were frequently used. Charity and grace sound different. And we might have devised creative theologies that distinguish the two, but those are examples of man-made traditions. The truth is that they are one and the same, identical, word - the Greek word "charis" pronounced in two different dialects. Any distinction between "grace" and "charity" that exists in modern theology is made up out of whole cloth.

The same is true of any difference between "sky" and "heaven", as we've already seen.

I don't want to dwell too much on this, but I want to point it out, because we've already seen that happen with the word that is translated as "Happy", or "Blessed" in the KJV.

We've seen the objection that "Happy" is a CHANGE of Scripture, that "Blessed" is the proper word. And we've seen a dense, detailed modern dictionary entry that spells out an exquisite concept, that "marakoi" - the Greek word, means "divinely blessed", far beyond merely "happy".

This is all made up out of earnest latter day tradition-making.

Truth: there is the Greek word happy - which is the one that is in the Bible, and then there is a superlative Greek word that means just about the equivalent of "divinely blessed". That word is "eudaimon" - "good spirit". Aristotle wrote a long discourse about the difference between mere marakoi happiness and the divine spiritual blessing of eudaimonia.

But that stronger Greek word - eudaimonia - divinely blessed - spiritually blessed - never once appears in the Scriptures. It's THE Greek word for that, and neither Jesus, nor Paul, nor any of the others, ever uses it. They used the word that means "happy", and "happy" is, in fact, the meaning of that Greek word they used in an ancient Greek context.

Now, we can further theologize that "happiness" when Jesus refers to it, most certainly "must" mean "spiritually blessed". After all, the word "blessed" appears in the KJV. Yes, it does. Blessed. Beati in Latin. Go look up what that meant in 1600.

I point this out, because what has really happened is that the regular language of 1611, because it archaic and SEEMS lofty, has BECOME lofty words to us. When we see "Thee" and "Thou" we think of those as nobler forms. But again, actually they are the opposite. French still has the "thee" form, it is the second person singular. It is used exclusively to address one's children, one's pets, one's pals, and people towards whom one means to be demeaning. The formal form of address is "vous" - which is also the plural. It is "you" in English.

Children may address their parents as "tu/thee", but someone else's parents are "vous/you".

When we address God as "Thee" and "Thou" and "Thy", we are not addressing God formally, and we are not addressing him with a term of respect. We are in fact addressing him with a term of familiarity, of close friendship…or, if we are not close, with contempt. When a thug is in custody in Paris facing a beating, he addresses the officers who hold is face in his hands as "you". They address him scornfully as "thou". If he addresses them as "thou", he will be beaten.

In fact, Quakers were severely beaten and many were killed in 1600s England because they did not believe in honorifics, and therefore addressed everybody as their Christian brethren, as "thou" and "thee". And for this many were beaten to within inches of their lives, for "Thou" is reserved for children, subordinates, spouses, pals, pets, farm animals…and - curiously - God.

There is a creeping respectability that happens in English. Old words appear nobler. That is why "blessed" appears something higher than "happy", although the Greek word used by Jesus is the word "happy", not the word spiritually blessed.

I return to this because I want to make a point about what I am doing. By moving to the KJV language, what we have in fact done is vastly amplify, in your eyes, all of the arguments I am going to make.

Before, I was using the words in English that actually are what the Greek words MEAN. But this was unacceptable. I was called out for changing the Bible by "demoting" "Blessed" to "merely" "Happy". But it is really time that has ELEVATED our perception of the English use of "blessed" which mean "happy" in 1600, to the equivalent of what the Greeks meant by eudaimonia…which is not actually the word that Jesus used.

Because I am ultimately making a point about what Jesus commanded by going through what he said, we will be wading through a great number of such words. By going to the KJV, what we are doing (unknown to you at this point), is vastly elevating the level of authority of what Jesus had to say. "Happy" - which he actually said, will become "Blessed" - eudaimonia in your eyes. "Charity" will become "Grace" - a loftier thing from God. All of this will tremendously enhance the argument I am going to make - before your eyes - but I feel the need to tell you that this is a false impression. It is because you have taken archaic words that meant important things, but not grandiose things, and followed their elevation in use in English.

Indeed, that elevation of old language is why the KJV is really an awful, awful choice for our use here.

I am pleased with it, for it turns what is merely good into something that is utterly (and literally) God- awful.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-08-18   22:27:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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