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Title: God's Economics In His Own Words
Source: Genesis through Revelation
URL Source: [None]
Published: Jul 23, 2015
Author: God
Post Date: 2015-07-23 11:41:25 by Vicomte13
Keywords: None
Views: 2665
Comments: 33

The roots of economics: Of natural law, order, energy, the elements, the cosmos, sky-sea-and land, plants, animals and humans, reproduction, food, the serpent, and the tree of knowledge of function and dysfunction; the imposition scarcity, of the need for clothing, and of potential medical needs.

ELOHIYM [the Powers]: "Or [order or light] will exist."

"Day." "Night."

"A sheet will exist in midst of the waters, making separate waters to waters."

"Skies."

"The waters from under the skies will be bound up into one area and the dry ground will be seen."

"Land." "Seas."

"The land will make sprout shoots, stems making sowing seed, produce tree making produce of his kind with his seed in him, upon the land."

"Luminaries will exist in [the] sheet [of] the skies to make separate between the day and between the night, and they exist to [make] signs and to [make] appointed [times], and to days and years, and the luminaries exist in [the] sheet [of] the skies to make light upon the land."

"Swarmers will swarm the waters, living beings, and flyers upon the land will much fly upon [the] faces [of the] sheet [of] the skies."

"Reproduce! And increase! And fill the waters in the seas! And flyers, increase in the land."

"The land will make go out kind[s] of living beings, beasts and treaders, and living land beings [of] their kind[s]."

"We will do human in [the] image [of] us, like the likeness [of] us, and he ruled in fish [of] the sea and in flyers [of] the skies, and in the beast, and in all the land, and in all [of] the treader treading upon the land."

"Reproduce! And increase! And fill the land! And subdue her! Rule in fish [of] the sea and in flyer [of] the skies and in all living treading upon the land."

"Look! I gave all stems sowing seeds that [are] upon [the] faces [of] all the land. And each produce tree[s] that in him sowing seeds; to you [it] will exist for food. And to all living [in] the land, and to all flyer [of] the skies, and to all living treading upon the land: all green stems to food."

YHWH: "You will eat from all tree[s] of the garden. And from [the] tree [of] the discernment [of] functional and dysfunctional - you will not eat from him, given that in [the] day you eat from him: die, you will die."

YHWH ELOHIYM: "Not functional is the human [as] a stick {i.e.: a single branch]. I will do to him help, like opposite him."

The woman, quoting Elohiym to the serpent regarding the Tree of Discernment of Function and Dsfunction: "You will not eat from him, and you will not touch him, otherwise you will die."

YHWH: "Where [are] you?"

"Who made face-to-face to you that you [are] naked? From the tree which I did much direct you except from him to eat: you will eat."

"What this did you do?"

"Given that you did do this, spit-upon [are] you from all the beast and from all the living. Upon your belly you will walk and power you will eat all the days of your living. And hostility I will set down between you and between the woman and between your seed and between her seed. He will fall upon your head, and you will fall upon his heel."

"Make increase - I will make increase your (singular) hardship and your (singular) pregnancy; in distressing pain you (singular) will bring forth sons; and to your (singular) man you (singular) [will be] following, and he will regulate in you."

"Given that you hearkened to [the] voice [of] your woman and you will eat from the tree from which I did much direct you, saying you will not eat from him, the ground [is] spitted-upon in your crossing-over; in hardship you (masculine singular) will eat her all days you live. And bramble and thistle she [the land] will make spring up to you, and you ate stem[s] [of] the field. In sweat [of] your noses you (masculine singular) will eat bread until you turn back to the ground, given that you [are] powder and to powder you will turn back."

YHWH ELOHIYM: "Though the human existed [a] like one from us, to know functional and dysfunctional, and now otherwise he will send his hand and take also from Tree [of} the Livings and ate and lived to distant time."

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 31.

#5. To: All (#0) (Edited)

The first post covered Genesis 1:1 through 3:24. To continue -

Qayin begins the violence in the land by killing Hevel. God finally decides to drown his wind (spirit) from all flesh in the land specifically because of the violence.

YHWH to Qayin (acquired = 'Cain'), regarding Hevel (vanity, whiff = 'Abel'):

"To what (why) did he flare up to you, and why did your faces fall? [Do] not. If you will make do well, lift up. And if you will not make do well, opening to failure [is] stretching out. [He (Abel) is] following you, and you will regulate [rule] in him."

"Where [is] Hevel your brother?"

"What you did do [the] voice of your brother's bloods [is] crying out to me from the ground. And now spitted-upon [are] you from the ground which parted her mouth to take your brother's bloods from your hand. Given that, you will serve the ground [but] she will not make her strength add to you. Staggering and nodding you will exist in the land."

{Note: Qayin did not go "to the land of Nod", he was "staggering and nodding in the land".}

"For (to avoid) this, all killing Qayin, seven times will he be made avenged."

Male and female he (Elohiym) did fatten them, and he will much kneel at them, and he will call out their title "Human" in the day they be fattened. (Gen 5:2)

YHWH: "My wind will not moderate in the human to distant time; he [is] flesh. And his days were one hundred and twenty years." (Gen 6:3)

"I will wipe away the human which I did fatten upon [the] faces [of the] ground, from human[s] to beast to treader and to flyer [of] the skies, so that I am comforted given that I did do (make) them."

ELOHIYM: "[The] conclusion [of] all flesh came to my faces, given that violence filled the land from their faces. Look! I am damaging (destroying) them [from] the land." (Gen 6:13)

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-07-23   14:04:14 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: All (#5)

Synopsis so far: WHAT GOD SAID, CREATION TO THE FLOOD (Gen 1:1-6:13) The roots of economics: Of natural law, order, energy, the elements, the cosmos, sky-sea-and land, plants, animals and humans, reproduction, food, the serpent, and the tree of knowledge of function and dysfunction; the imposition scarcity, of the need for clothing, and of potential medical needs. Qayin begins the violence in the land by killing Hevel. God finally decides to drown his wind (spirit) from all flesh in the land specifically because of the violence.

ELOHIYM [the Powers]: "Or [order or light] will exist." "Day." "Night."

"A sheet will exist in midst of the waters, making separate waters to waters." "Skies."

"The waters from under the skies will be bound up into one area and the dry ground will be seen." "Land." "Seas."

"The land will make sprout shoots, stems making sowing seed, produce tree making produce of his kind with his seed in him, upon the land."

"Luminaries will exist in [the] sheet [of] the skies to make separate between the day and the night, and they exist to [make] signs and to [make] appointed [times], and to days and years, and the luminaries exist in [the] sheet [of] the skies to make light upon the land."

"Swarmers will swarm the waters, living beings, and flyers upon the land will much fly upon [the] faces [of the] sheet [of] the skies."

"Reproduce! And increase! And fill the waters in the seas! And flyers, increase in the land."

"The land will make go out kind[s] of living beings, beasts and treaders, and living land beings [of] their kind[s]."

"We will do human in [the] image [of] us, like the likeness [of] us, and he ruled in swimmers [of] the sea and in flyers [of] the skies, and in the beast, and in all the land, and in all [of] the treader treading upon the land."

"Reproduce! And increase! And fill the land! And subdue her! Rule in swimmers [of] the sea and in flyer [of] the skies and in all living treading upon the land."

"Look! I gave all stems sowing seeds that [are] upon [the] faces [of] all the land. And each produce tree[s] that in him sowing seeds; to you [it] will exist for food. And to all living [in] the land, and to all flyer [of] the skies, and to all living treading upon the land: all green stems to food."

YHWH: "You will eat from all tree[s] of the garden. And from [the] tree [of] the discernment [of] functional and dysfunctional - you will not eat from him, given that in [the] day you eat from him: die, you will die."

YHWH ELOHIYM: "Not functional is the human [as] a stick {i.e.: a single branch}. I will do to him help, like opposite him."

The woman, quoting Elohiym to the serpent regarding the Tree of Discernment of Function and Dsfunction: "You will not eat from him, and you will not touch him, otherwise you will die."

YHWH: "Where [are] you?"

"Who made face-to-face to you that you [are] naked? From the tree which I did much direct you except from him to eat: you will eat."

"What [is} this you have done?"

"Given that you did do this, spit-upon [are] you from all the beast and from all the living. Upon your belly you will walk and powder you will eat all the days of your living. And hostility I will set down between you and between the woman and between your seed and between her seed. He will fall upon your head, and you will fall upon his heel."

"Make increase - I will make increase your (singular) hardship and your (singular) pregnancy; in distressing pain you (singular) will bring forth sons; and to your (singular) man you (singular) [will be] following, and he will regulate in you."

"Given that you hearkened to [the] voice [of] your woman and you will eat from the tree from which I did much direct you, saying you will not eat from him, the ground [is] spitted-upon in your crossing-over; in hardship you (masculine singular) will eat her all days you live. And bramble and thistle she [the land] will make spring up to you, and you ate stem[s] [of] the field. In sweat [of] your noses you (masculine singular) will eat bread until you turn back to the ground, given that you [are] powder and to powder you will turn back."

YHWH ELOHIYM: "Though the human existed like one from us, to know functional and dysfunctional, and now otherwise he will send his hand and take also from Tree [of] the Livings and ate and lived to distant time."

YHWH to Qayin (acquired = 'Cain'), regarding Hevel (vanity, whiff = 'Abel'):

"To what (why) did he flare up to you, and why did your faces fall? [Do] not. If you will make do well, lift up. And if you will not make do well, opening to failure [is] stretching out. [He (Abel) is] following you, and you will regulate [rule] in him."

"Where [is] Hevel your brother?"

"What you did do [the] voice of your brother's bloods [is] crying out to me from the ground. And now spitted-upon [are] you from the ground which parted her mouth to take your brother's bloods from your hand. Given that, you will serve the ground [but] she will not make her strength add to you. Staggering and nodding you will exist in the land."

"For (to avoid) this, all killing Qayin, seven times will he be made avenged."

Male and female he (Elohiym) did fatten them, and he will much kneel at them, and he will call out their title "Human" in the day they be fattened. (Gen 5:2)

YHWH: "My wind will not moderate in the human to distant time; he [is] flesh. And his days were one hundred and twenty years." (Gen 6:3)

"I will wipe away the human which I did fatten upon [the] faces [of the] ground, from human[s] to beast to treader and to flyer [of] the skies, so that I am comforted given that I did do (make) them."

ELOHIYM: "[The] conclusion [of] all flesh came to my faces, given that violence filled the land from their faces. Look! I am damaging (destroying) them [from] the land."

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-07-23   16:25:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: redleghunter, SOSO, A K A Stone, All (#7)

Sticking for a moment to the words God spoke from creation to the Flood, we find a parallelism. God didn't say much, but what he said stuck, even the order he said it.

The FIRST commandment God gave as Reproduce (repeated for emphasis: Increase!, and repeated yet again "Fill the land!") - the sheer power of the human sex drive was the first thing put into us after life itself.

And when Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the forbidden tree, of the knowledge of function and dysfunction, the very first dysfunction that awakened in them was sexual shame: they realized they were naked, they put together makeshift clothing of fig leaves, and they hid from the Creator because they were naked. The first commandment was paralleled by the first dysfunction after the Fall.

The punishment God imposed on Eve was that now her childbearing would be in great pain.

The second commandment was dietary: what to eat. In the Garden, man and woman simply stretched forth their hands to eat the fruit of the trees, as God ordained they should. But once the fall came, God prescribed to Adam that now the ground would be "spat upon" on account of him. Whereas before, every green plant and all of the fruits of the trees were for man's use, in the garden, now the land would not be functional to man. Now thistles and thorns, inedible things, would come from the soil. Now, instead of fruit of the trees, man would eat the shoots and woody stems (herbs) of the ground, and man would have to coax it out of the ground.

What was easy before, and functional, now was dysfunctional.

And with the need for clothing and the need to work for food begins scarcity of resources. In Paradise, resources were not scarce. Man still had a job, and woman beside him: to tend the garden, to rule the animals. This was a pleasant, non-violent task, done naked, in a world of endless food - stretch forth the hand and eat.

But now, dysfunction springs forth. Now, man feels he needs clothing, and now instead of simply eating the fruit of the garden, he must work the land, and it is set against him. Instead of sweet fruit eaten raw, he must work to bring forth woody-stemmed herbs and eat the sprouting grasses like animals, and now he must make them into bread. It's harder. The economy principle of scarcity has entered the world as the result of dysfunction.

And soon enough, dysfunction builds upon dysfunction. For the rulership of the animals still allowed for the ease of eating milk, but Cain killed Abel, not for greed, but out of spite. Dysfunction breeds dysfunction. Violence increases, and God decides to baptize the world, washing it of the shedding of blood, by removing the breath from the nostrils of every land animal, including man, by drowning.

After the Flood, we find God telling Noah that the land is no longer cursed. Thus, we have the archetype of baptism.

In six chapters God's words have been spare, but they carry the weight. And those natural laws God pronounced, and the consequences God ordained for dysfunction, remain the law to this day.

Shame, the scarcity of food, and the potential for human violence driven both by need and by simple spite and wounded pride - and the need to provide for security against that - establish the fundamental particles that underpin economic scarcity and that drive the base of human activity.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-07-25   21:29:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Vicomte13, redleghunter, A K A Stone, All (#15)

Shame, the scarcity of food, and the potential for human violence driven both by need and by simple spite and wounded pride - and the need to provide for security against that - establish the fundamental particles that underpin economic scarcity and that drive the base of human activity.

Wow, that's some stretch, kinda like a shaggy dog story.

SOSO  posted on  2015-07-25   22:03:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: SOSO (#16)

Shaggy dog story? Shame is spoken of directly: Adam and Eve hid because they were naked. The scarcity of food is spoken of directly: indeed, it is the SENTENCE God imposes on Adam for eating from the tree.

The spite of Cain is spoken of directly. God speaks of it to him, tells him not to be so crestfallen and angry, to buck up, and Abel will follow him. Instead, Cain goes right out and kills Hevel.

Shame, scarcity and violence from spite. No shaggy dog story there, no "stretch" - it's right THERE is the very words of Scripture.

This is the problem in a nutshell: Scripture can say something directly, and men will deny that's what it says and substitute their own desires for it.

It's why Christianity is fading everywhere: the dishonesty of men.

Anyway, God said what he said, and what he said was sparing in terms of words, and clear as a bell. There isn't anything ambiguous in what he said so far. I'm going to quote him again, in totum and in order, and then move on to the next thing he says.

The roots of the economy of the world are contained in the few spare words God said in the first six chapters of Genesis: food, clothing, reproduction and the rising potential for violence from spite: these are the very things that drive the bulk of human activity and expenditure.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-07-26   16:05:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: All (#22)

What God said, so far:

ELOHIYM [the Powers]: "Or [order or light] will exist." "Day." "Night."

"A sheet will exist in midst of the waters, making separate waters to waters." "Skies."

"The waters from under the skies will be bound up into one area and the dry ground will be seen." "Land." "Seas."

"The land will make sprout shoots, stems making sowing seed, produce tree making produce of his kind with his seed in him, upon the land."

"Luminaries will exist in [the] sheet [of] the skies to make separate between the day and the night, and they exist to [make] signs and to [make] appointed [times], and to days and years, and the luminaries exist in [the] sheet [of] the skies to make light upon the land."

"Swarmers will swarm the waters, living beings, and flyers upon the land will much fly upon [the] faces [of the] sheet [of] the skies."

"Reproduce! And increase! And fill the waters in the seas! And flyers, increase in the land."

"The land will make go out kind[s] of living beings, beasts and treaders, and living land beings [of] their kind[s]."

"We will do human in [the] image [of] us, like the likeness [of] us, and he ruled in swimmers [of] the sea and in flyers [of] the skies, and in the beast, and in all the land, and in all [of] the treader treading upon the land."

"Reproduce! And increase! And fill the land! And subdue her! Rule in swimmers [of] the sea and in flyer [of] the skies and in all living treading upon the land."

"Look! I gave all stems sowing seeds that [are] upon [the] faces [of] all the land. And each produce tree[s] that in him sowing seeds; to you [it] will exist for food. And to all living [in] the land, and to all flyer [of] the skies, and to all living treading upon the land: all green stems to food."

YHWH: "You will eat from all tree[s] of the garden. And from [the] tree [of] the discernment [of] functional and dysfunctional - you will not eat from him, given that in [the] day you eat from him: die, you will die."

YHWH ELOHIYM: "Not functional is the human [as] a stick {i.e.: a single branch}. I will do to him help, like opposite him."

The woman, quoting Elohiym to the serpent regarding the Tree of Discernment of Function and Dsfunction: "You will not eat from him, and you will not touch him, otherwise you will die."

YHWH: "Where [are] you?"

"Who made face-to-face to you that you [are] naked? From the tree which I did much direct you except from him to eat: you will eat."

"What [is} this you have done?"

"Given that you did do this, spit-upon [are] you from all the beast and from all the living. Upon your belly you will walk and powder you will eat all the days of your living. And hostility I will set down between you and between the woman and between your seed and between her seed. He will fall upon your head, and you will fall upon his heel."

"Make increase - I will make increase your (singular) hardship and your (singular) pregnancy; in distressing pain you (singular) will bring forth sons; and to your (singular) man you (singular) [will be] following, and he will regulate in you."

"Given that you hearkened to [the] voice [of] your woman and you will eat from the tree from which I did much direct you, saying you will not eat from him, the ground [is] spitted-upon in your crossing-over; in hardship you (masculine singular) will eat her all days you live. And bramble and thistle she [the land] will make spring up to you, and you ate stem[s] [of] the field. In sweat [of] your noses you (masculine singular) will eat bread until you turn back to the ground, given that you [are] powder and to powder you will turn back."

YHWH ELOHIYM: "Though the human existed like one from us, to know functional and dysfunctional, and now otherwise he will send his hand and take also from Tree [of] the Livings and ate and lived to distant time."

YHWH to Qayin (acquired = 'Cain'), regarding Hevel (vanity, whiff = 'Abel'):

"To what (why) did he flare up to you, and why did your faces fall? [Do] not. If you will make do well, lift up. And if you will not make do well, opening to failure [is] stretching out. [He (Abel) is] following you, and you will regulate [rule] in him."

"Where [is] Hevel your brother?"

"What you did do [the] voice of your brother's bloods [is] crying out to me from the ground. And now spitted-upon [are] you from the ground which parted her mouth to take your brother's bloods from your hand. Given that, you will serve the ground [but] she will not make her strength add to you. Staggering and nodding you will exist in the land."

"For (to avoid) this, all killing Qayin, seven times will he be made avenged."

Male and female he (Elohiym) did fatten them, and he will much kneel at them, and he will call out their title "Human" in the day they be fattened. (Gen 5:2)

YHWH: "My wind will not moderate in the human to distant time; he [is] flesh. And his days were one hundred and twenty years." (Gen 6:3)

"I will wipe away the human which I did fatten upon [the] faces [of the] ground, from human[s] to beast to treader and to flyer [of] the skies, so that I am comforted given that I did do (make) them."

ELOHIYM: "[The] conclusion [of] all flesh came to my faces, given that violence filled the land from their faces. Look! I am damaging (destroying) them [from] the land."

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-07-26   16:07:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Vicomte13 (#23)

I haven't seen any economics in this thred.

No answers to any questions.

Just you cutting and pasting. And correcting what is said to be Gods word.

The thread is not as advertised.

I'll get back to you if you ever respond to what Pastor Butch said. I'll go with Pastor Butch as you can't refute anything he says.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-07-26   16:14:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: A K A Stone (#24)

You go with Pastor Butch. I haven't listened to him. I've been focused on what I said I was going to focus on, and on life off the Board, and I'll stay focused on it.

I'm about to move to Noah's Ark, which is the next thing God says.

The words that God says are fundamental.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-07-26   20:20:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Vicomte13 (#26)

You go with Pastor Butch. I haven't listened to him.

God put it on my heart to make sure you listen to the complete audio.

He said he doesn't want you to be willingly ignorant.

Just relaying what God put on my heart.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-07-26   20:26:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: A K A Stone, redleghunter (#27)

Let's look at Genesis with fresh eyes. What the pastor says on the take AKA Stone posted above is true: Genesis is the most important book of the Old Testament. He gives two good reasons: (1) Every New Testament author cites it, and (2) It sets up the conditions for understanding everything else. I'll give a third: the first 11 chapters of Genesis, from Creation to the Tower of Babel, give the history of all of mankind, and within that history God gives a few laws that have always applied to all of mankind and still do. These are not the laws of Moses - they precede Moses by thousands of years. These laws were not revealed through the Jews. They were, rather, revealed directly to all of mankind (at the time) by God himself. When we read the rest of the Old Testament, we are very aware that it is addressed to Hebrews, specifically. They are given specific promises, in a specific land, for specific reasons. But when we read the first 10 chapters of Genesis, there are no Hebrews: the first of them has not yet been born. There's no Pharaoh either. There are the common ancestors of all of humanity, and God is addressing the Chinese and Hawaiian Islanders' ancestors just as much as he is addressing the ancestors of Abraham, Isaac and Moses.

The Jewish law only ever applied to Jews, but the Law of Genesis applied, and still applies, to every human. So, if you want to know history, you have to read the whole Old Testament. If you want to understand the mind of God in statecraft and economics, you have to read the entire Old Testament. But if you want to know what LAW from God actually binds you, all you have to do is read the first ten chapters of Genesis, two of the Gospels (either Matthew or Luke, and John), the first have of the Acts of the Apostles, and Revelation.

It is true that mankind is not bound by the Jewish Law, but it is not true that mankind is not bound by law. We are. The part of the Old Testament that contains all of the laws of God to which all are bound is the first few chapters of Genesis.

The first chapter even contains the laws by which matter and energy are bound.

Shall we parse that first chapter in particular detail, to be sure we really understand the language correctly and see more than we usually see of what is going on there?

I think we should, for at least two reasons. One is that seeing the depth of detail contained in the language and the pictographs that compose the language, we gain a great deal of confidence that this incredibly dense and insightful text was inspired by God very directly. A second reason is that in Genesis 1, in particular, God defines words. Sometimes he uses a word a few times, and then LATER defines it to mean something precise. We must realize that and see it clearly, if we really want to understand Genesis. An example: the word "ha'aretz" is defined by God to mean "dry land" in the second day, but it appears twice before that, in the description of the initial conditions.

This word is traditionally translated into English as "earth", but that's a particularly deceptive translation for us today, because when we hear the word "earth", we don't think of "land" (as opposed to sea and sky), we think of a PLANET. So when we read the traditional "God created the heavens and the Earth), we think of skies and planets. But what the text really says is "the skies and the land" - and both the word "skies" and "land" are given specific meanings by God several sentences later. So these words "hashamayim" ("skies") and "ha'aretz" ("land") will be ASSIGNED the specific meanings of "the sky above" and "dry land" by God only later. When they FIRST APPEAR, they DON'T mean that, because those things haven't been MADE yet. They DO mean something, though, but what they mean isn't defined in the surface words, the things that are translated.

Rather, what "hashamayim" and "ha'arets" mean BEFORE God assigns them the meanings of "skies" and "land" is actually shown hieroglyphically by the pictographs that compose these two words in Hebrew. Once they are DEFINED, by God, as simply meaning "Skies" and "land", that is what they mean. But before that, the words are not simply words, but SENTENCES of pictures that show the conditions.

OR - and this is the hard part, to accept that there is an OR meaning to it all - the first sentence of Genesis consists of the first two lines, not just one, and it is a "capitulo", a synopsis of what follows.

Whether it is one or the other is not clearly knowable, because the word that is translated as "created" is the word "bara", and it doesn't really mean created at all. It means "fattened", or more abstractly, "made more substantial".

This is why one cannot drive spikes into the ground and say "Genesis 1:1 MEANS thus and so", because actually, it CAN mean several things, all interrelated, and all evincing the same things, but quite different.

Most important theologically, within the pictographic sentences of the first line of Genesis is the division of the godhead into at least two pieces, and pluralization of the word we translate as "God" - a plural that nevertheless takes a singular verb. Also present is the ruach elohiym, the "wind" or "spirit" of God (plural) - the "Holy Spirit", and this is a feminine noun, giving meaning to the words "in God's image he made them - male and female he made them". God's image in the Hebrew is presented with distinctly feminine words as well as masculine. The Spirit of God is feminine. So is, later, the "shekinah" - the Glory of God. It is immensely important for the way that we understand God to understand that within the Scripture itself God presents God's facets as masculine and feminine. Thus, while the word "YHWH" is a masculine singular imperfect verb: "He will exist", and it is therefore correct to refer to "The Lord" as "HE", the Holy Spirit, the Ruach Elohiym, is correctly addressed only as "SHE", because it is only a feminine noun.

If that is offensive - that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are present in Genesis 1, it should not be. They are. Jews and Muslims and those who think they already know Scripture but do not may be offended, but those who seek Truth should delight.

Likewise, that the Father is a He, the Son is a He, but the Holy Spirit is a She is what the text SAYS, plainly. It's not debatable. But Christian tradition (in different languages) has called the Holy Spirit "He" for years. That is not what Scripture says however. It is not an "innovation" to call the Holy Spirit "She". It is the only correct reading of Hebrew Scriptures. The Christians are in error when they refer to the Holy Spirit as "He". The Spirit in Hebrew is feminine, and can only correctly be referred to by the feminine pronoun. It is incorrect to address the Father or the Son as "He", and it is incorrect to address the Holy Spirit, or the Spirits of God, or the Glory of God, as "he". They are "She".

Should that matter? No, it shouldn't. But if it DOES matter to somebody, this is a classic example of a man insisting on sticking with his ancient man-made tradition over against the literal, clear, unambiguous language of Scripture. Genesis is not ambiguous in the original language: the Holy Spirit is "She". That's why "in God's image" is both male and female. It fits together nicely.

But long tradition has called the Spirit "He", and men will dig in on their traditions and be in error, rather than follow what God said.

It is not PLEASANT to read Scripture literally, because one finds a lot of errors and detritus collected in one's cherished traditions.

Consider the Nicene Creed, said in Church at ever mass. The part "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son* (*THE historical point of contention between the Catholics, who say this, and the Eastern Orthodox, who say that the Holy Spirit proceeds exclusively from the Father alone, and not from the Son). With the Father and Son HE is adored and glorified. HE has spoken through the Prophets."

No. SHE has spoken through the prophets. SHE. The Hebrew word is SHE, not He.

Yes, in Greek pneuma is neutral, not feminine, and in Latin, it is masculine. But these are translation issues. If gender matters at all - and the traditions all say it does - then the gender of the elements of the godhead matter. El is a he. Eloah is a she. God's messengers are "he's". God's glory and God's spirit are "she's".

This SHOULD be a delightful discovery, because it clears up the question over the passage in Genesis that says "in God's image he created them, male and female he made them". If God is a "he", how are females in "his" image. The answer is that God is both he and she, not abstractly, but literally in Hebrew, component by component. The reason we say "he made them" is because Elohiym, the unitive plural "God" is a plural, and in a plural group of male and female elements, one uses the male pronoun.

It all makes perfect sense - the plurality of the word "God" in Hebrew (particularly when one reads the letter-pictures of the first word and sees the division of the godhead internally before time) - and the masculine and feminine elements that compose that pluralized elohiym. It makes sense in the Hebrew, but note well: the JEWS would reject all of this, claiming that God is a monad (even though the Hebrew Scripture says the opposite). And Christians, many of them, would reject all of this as "novel", even though it is in the black and white letters of Genesis and is thousands of years old. "Allowing" the "she" in the godhead strikes a death blow to a certain traditional sexism that is not, in fact, part of the truth revealed by God, but that is very much a part of Jewish, Christian (and Muslim) traditions...and Jesus tells us all about our propensity to love our traditions so much we walk out on God.

If one comes into Genesis with a clear head, an open mind, and the willingness to accept whatever is found there as truth, then one finds the explanation of both the origins of the universe there, and insight into the internal "structure" of the godhead. We already know from Revelation that God is not simply a tri-unity, a Trinity, but is at least a nine-unity, for Revelation tells us flatly that God has Seven Spirits, not just one. And the Torah tells us also there is the Shekinah - the Glory of God - which is itself an entity appertaining to God, just as the spirit is. There is also "Sophia", Wisdom, who was alongside of the Father during creation, and who is a "She".

This is not polytheism, and it's not henatheism. It is a precise understanding of terms, and understanding the only-partially-revealed complexity of the godhead. Still, there are TWO revelations of this: one is what is written in the Hebrew. The other are the traditions of Jews, Muslims and different branches of the Christians. And these things conflict with each other. The only true one is the one that is actually written. It's THERE, in the words and pictures, and understanding it makes the Scriptures make a great deal more sense, for it means that the different names of God that appear in specific places and circumstances actually have MEANING. They are not simply synonyms for each other, but they indicate the face of the divine personality that is acting.

I try to convey these things without being argumentative, but I'll admit it's hard. It's not hard because I have an atrocious personality either. I don't. I have a fixed, stubborn personality - a Basque mind. I'm merely standing for the visible, written, truth, unchanged since written. But I am keenly aware (through long experience) that men's approach to God is really to worship the idol of their traditions, which RESEMBLES the real God who reveals himself in Scripture, and yet who differs in some subtle or important ways.

Example: the pastor's speech, which was excellent, falls into the traditional error of saying that God did not create bad things. That is false. God says himself that he does just precisely that. He said it directly in Isaiah, in the most explicit way: "I create evil". Of course, the word "evil" itself is a Greek philosophical abstraction. Hebrew is extremely concrete, and God spoke concretely. There is neither "good" nor "evil" in the Hebrew God spoke to reveal the truth. Rather, there is "function" - that which works - and "Dysfunction" - that which does not work.

When one speaks of "evil", in particular, one speaks as though there were a force of nature itself called "evil", a "think" that works bad works. Not so! There is, rather, a lack of order, a breakdown of order, a derailing of things, making them not to work. The scientific term for the tendency towards disorder is "entropy". Entropy is a fundamental law of nature, and it, too, was created by God. God never said that he made things not to fall apart: men say that in their traditions, but God never, ever says that.

What the serpent did in the Garden was to PRECIPITATE dysfunction, by inducing the woman to do that which was dysfunctional. Through the dysfunctional act, death resulted - indeed it came into the world - but that does not mean that the SOURCE of the dysfunction was the act, like the release of dark energy in some dark spell. That is the way Christian tradition and Jewish tradition and Muslim tradition treat it, but once again, what God actually SAYS in the text is a little different.

It's not COMPLETELY different. It isn't as though the tradition will lead people into a pit. But the tradition does lead to some misunderstanding that can be pretty profound, and Scripture reads clearly and less mysteriously when it is taken with the clarity and precision that God delivered it.

So let's do that. Let's parse Genesis 1 for a bit. It will serve us well, because it will define so many words we will use again and again.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-07-28   9:34:29 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: All, redleghunter, A K A Stone (#30)

So let's do that. Let's parse Genesis 1 for a bit. It will serve us well, because it will define so many words we will use again and again.

We have to start with Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.

We have to remind ourselves of a few things: although we customarily read it in English (or French), it was not written in either. It was translated into Latin in the late 300s AD, and into Greek in the 200s BC, but Latin and Greek are Indo-European languages, related to English and French. It was originally written in Hebrew, a Semitic language.

What is more, it was not written in modern Hebrew letters. The current Hebrew letters are not "Hebrew" at all. They're Babylonian. The Jews learned the Babylonian letters, which are very stylized (and stylish). The original Hebrew is a set of pictographs closely related to Egyptian hieroglyphs. Originally, the pictographs were not phonetic letters. Rather, they were words, and they conveyed either the sound of the beginning of that word or the word's meaning, or both. Example: the first letter is called "Aleph" today. It is the root of our letter "A". It's original pictograph was an ox head (turn an "A" on its side and you'll see the horns). It was not called "Aleph", but "Al" or "El" (pronunciation of vowels is never fixed in any language).

Middle Hebrew - the Hebrew of the Massoretic Text (which is the oldest complete version of the Hebrew Bible, and dates from c. 1000 AD) - had no vowels. The Massoretes, who lived in the region of Israel called Galilee, added dots and dashes above, below and around the letters to add vowel sounds. Those dots and dashes, called "pointing" (nikkud), do not appear at all in the 1000 year older Hebrew of the Caves at Qumran - the Dead Sea Scrolls.

So, the vowel points were added later, and reflect the pronunciation that the Massorete scribes thought was correct. Of course, the Massoretes were Galileans, and we know from the Gospels that Galileans had a specific accent that was quite identifiable: as he waited by the fire during Jesus' trial, Peter was thrice accused of being Jesus' follower, by people who noted that he had a Galilean accent.

So, vowel sounds change while consonants remain relatively fixed, and the vowel points record some vowel sounds - but those sounds are probably the sound of the Hebrew Scriptures as read in 1000 AD by Galilean Jews, speaking with a Galilean accent.

Vowels are not necessary to convey meaning, especially in a consonantal system like Hebrew in which words are built up from two letter and three letter consonantal roots. If you do not believe me that vowels are unnecessary in Hebrew, go pick up a copy of the contemporary Jerusalem newspaper "Ha'aretz". The entire newspaper is printed in Hebrew consonants, with no vowel pointing at all. Major Israeli newspapers are printed with just consonants. nglsh s hrd t rd wtht vwls, bt Hbrw s mch sr. (English is hard to read without vowels, but Hebrew is easier.)

What is more, ancient Hebrew, which used the pictographs and not the Babylonian Aramaic letters, DID have vowels. Certain of the letters, such as Alef, served as vowels. TODAY, Alef has no sound at all in Hebrew. It serves as a marker that carries the sound of the vowel points placed on it. But in ancient Hebrew, it carried the sound of "Al" or "El".

This is important, because it is the first name by which God is named: usually "El", the masculine singular form. This can also be pronounced "Al" in some accents. Eloah, or Allah, is the feminine singular form of this same word. Now, "El" or "Eloah" never stands alone in the Hebrew Bible. They are used with compound names or place names, such as "El Shaddai" and "El Elyon". When the word for God stands alone in Hebrew, it's "Elohiym", a plural. Gods?

Well, the problem is that the word "God" doesn't really MEAN anything in modern English other than "The Deity". But in Hebrew, El and Eloah mean "Power" or "Mighty One", and Elohiym means "Powers" or "Mighty Ones".

So when the text refers to Elohiym, it is referring to "Powers", and personifying them. When that is kept in mind, that the word being used is the word "Powers", and not the word "God", then the use of the word becomes clearer.

For we find it distressing to read of other "gods, or even of powerful men such as judges called "gods". When we hear God saying to Moses that he, Moses, will be a god to his brother Aaron, we start to do gyrations to explain that no, God doesn't mean that, that he is speaking in hyperbole. But actually God DOES mean it, it's just that God is using the word "Powers", and "power" and mighty one, not the word God.

The word we TRANSLATE as "God" is not the word "God" at all. It's the word Powers. We are to understand that when we speak of the Powers. That's why God's NAME, before he reveals it as "YHWH", is El Elyon - which means Power Power-est - the most powerful of the powers, the Power of the Powers. The Highest Power.

This is the sort of thing we have to go through, so our head is straight when we read Scripture, and so that we're using the words as they were revealed...in the pictographic language that revealed them. The letters are different, and are actually whole words as well as phonetic pictographs. The lettering systems in Hebrew changed several times since the text was originally written. The ancient sounds are only knowable by inference. Even the verb tenses of Hebrew have changed. Ancient Hebrew was a concrete language that has two verb tenses: perfect (meaning an action is completed), and imperfect, meaning the action is imcomplete, or was not completed, or has yet to happen.

MODERN Hebrew is rooted in the timestream and has verb tenses that relate to time, like Western languages. But ancient Hebrew does not. This isn't trivial, because it means that even a fluent modern native speaker of modern Hebrew does not comprehend the verbs of ancient Hebrew - modern Hebrew is a western language, and it doesn't "think that way" anymore.

But to understand Scripture, especially Genesis when it deals with things otherwise unseen, we MUST read the verb tenses carefully and accurately. Otherwise we will assert that things were DONE that in fact were not yet (and perhaps still are not yet) completed.

There's a lot to keep track of, and when you keep track of all of it, the text is much clearer and less mysterious. But it differently says something different from the traditional understanding.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-07-28   15:16:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 31.

#32. To: Vicomte13 (#31)

Thanks for the pings. I'm following. Much like our earlier threads.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-07-29 00:20:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 31.

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