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Title: Trump creates outrage in Iowa claiming that John McCain wasn't a war hero because he was a captured POW – and dodges questions about his own Vietnam War draft deferments
Source:
Daily Mail Online
URL Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art ... all-half-field-stays-home.html
Published: Jul 18, 2015
Author: David Martosko, US Political Editor
Post Date: 2015-07-18 13:59:06 by cranky
Keywords: None
Views: 60913
Comments: 201
- Trump couldn't remember which foot had the bone spur that brought his medical deferment from the Vietnam draft
- He blasted John McCain on stage in Iowa for calling his Phoenix audience 'crazies,' and denied he was a war hero because the North Cietnamese captured him
- Trump had initially wowed the cattle-call crowd by talking about his religion for the first time in-depth
- Rick Perry quickly called for Trump to quit his campaign and said he's unfit to be commander-in-chief
- Trump clarified: 'I have great respect for all those who serve in our military including those that weren’t captured and are also heroes'
- Jeb Bush, Chris Christie, Carly Fiorina, George Pataki, Lindsey Graham and Rand Paul skipped the Christian conservative gathering in Iowa
Donald Trump escalated his feud with Sen. John McCain on Saturady in Iowa by suggesting only his capture and five years as a prisoner of war turned him into a 'war hero.'
'He’s a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren't captured,' Trump said on stage at the Family Leader Summit in Ames.
McCain spent years in a Viet Cong prison after the plane he was flying was shot down over Hanoi in October 1967.He was tortured enough to produce permanent physical disabilities.
Trump got student and medical deferments and never served in uniform.
He told reporters after his speech that a bone spur in his foot led to the medical exemption from the draft. Asked which foot had disqualified him, he couldn't remember.
'You'll have to look it up,' Trump said dismissively. 'It's in the records.'
Rick Perry, the former Texas governor who is running 10th in an average of national polls, immediately called for Trump to quit his presidential campaign.
ANGRY: Trump attacked Sen. John McCain and said the only reason he is considered a war hero is his capture and imprisonment as a POW during the Vietnam War.
NOT A HERO? Sen. John McCain spent more than five years in a North Vietnamese prison after his plane was shot down durign the Vietnam War
WALKING WOUNDED: McCain's torture left him disfigured and permanently damaged
'I respect Sen. McCain because he volunteered to serve his country,' Perry said in a statement. 'I cannot say the same of Mr. Trump.'
'His comments have reached a new low in American politics. His attack on veterans make him unfit to be Commander-in-Chief of the U.S. Armed Forces, and he should immediately withdraw from the race for President.'
Trump focued considerable rhetorical artillery on McCain Saturday, mocking his bona fides on military and veterans issues:
'He graduated last in his class at Annapolis,' he claimed. 'Well, second-to-last.'
In a press conference following his speech, Trump backtracked a few inches about prisoners of war.
'If somebody's a prisoner, I would consider him a war hero,' he said. 'But her have lots of heroes who wersn't prisoners.
The billionaire's tussle with McCain began after he drew a reported 15,000 people to a campaign event in Phoenix to talk about illegal immigration.
McCain, a proponent of comprehensive immigration reform, called his audience 'crazies.' Trump responded that the GOP's 2008 presidential nominee was a 'dummy.'
In an emailed statement to DailyMail.com, Trump said after his press conference: 'I am not a fan John McCain because he has done so little for our Veterans and he should know better than anybody what the Veterans need, especially in regards to the VA.'
'He was extremely disrespectful to the thousands upon thousands of people, many of whom happen to be his constituents, that came to listen to me speak about illegal immigration in Phoenix last week by calling them "crazies",' Trump carped.
'These were not "crazies" – these were great American citizens.'
'I have great respect for all those who serve in our military including those that weren’t captured and are also heroes,' he insisted.
Republicans auditioned all day for Christian conservatives, parading their bona fides in the nations' first presidential primary state. But not everyone searching for votes showed up.
The cattle-call brought nine of the Republican Party's 15 declared presidential candidates to a single stage, less than a day after Democrats did the same thing – with all five of their White House hopefuls – a two-hour drive to the east.
The Christian-right sponsoring group, The Family Leader, attracted mostly the candidates from the conservative end of the GOP spectrum.
Led by political kingmaker Bob Vander Plaats, the group wields outsize influence in the Hawkeye State whenever Republicans barnstorm through during the run-up to the quadrennial Iowa caucuses.
The $10 billion man was otherwise a crowd favorite in Ames, Iowa, speaking about his religion before a group of Christian conservatives
Donald Trump's childhood church was First Presbyterian Church in Jamaica, Queens, New York City. He said he was in church just last week
Anti-abortion politics were visible in Ames, Iowa on July 18, 2015 at the Family Leader summit, a gathering of Republican presidential candidates hosted
Missing in Ames was the Republican front-runner Jeb Bush, the sometimes-moderate New Jersey governor Chris Christie and the usually moderate former New York governor George Pataki.
Nowhere to be found were senators Lindsey Graham of South Carolina and Rand Paul of Kentucky. Paul's libertarian brand of Republicanism, makes some religious conservatives wary.
Carly Fiorina, the GOP's only female While House contestant, also didn't make the trip.
Florida Sen. Marco Rubio, the day's first candidate-speaker, wrapped up his time on stage in a Q&A with pollster Frank Luntz by asking if he could read aloud from a book.
'It's a Bible,' he said, drawing wild cheers from the audience.
He read from the Gospel of Luke, chapter 12, verse 48: 'From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded' – explaining it as a parable about America's global primacy and its obligations to keep its people, and the world, safe.
Rubio blasted the Obama administration's recent nuclear bargain with Iran, calling it 'a complete sham.'
He also castigated the president for sidestepping the role of Islam in global terror.
'It's not radical Presbyterian terrorism,' he said. 'It's radical Islamic terrorism. ... We have to target them militarily in their safe havens.'
Abortion politics were visible both outside and inside the event venue in Ames, Iowa.
Sign-wavers pointed to right-wing outrage over a surreptitious video that showed a Planned Parenthood medical doctor describing how she tailored her abortion procedures in order to preserve fetal body parts for human biologics companies.
Outrage over an undercover video sting of Planned Parenthood brought anti-abortion
Iowa Rep. Steve King kicked off the day with anger over 'that in-quotes "doctor"' whom he said was killing 'babies that could be viable outside the womb. It is sickening to watch.'
Seizing on the political moment as a springboard for new laws tightening abortion restrictions, Knig said: 'This is our chance.'
Also in evidence was a lingering resentment over this month's stunning Supreme Court decision legalizing same-sex weddings nationwide.
'Marriage = 1 [man] and 1 [woman],' a projected image declared above the stage as the crowd filed in, using icons to represent male and female. (9 images)
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Wow, now I recognize where I met you before. You were the guy that was spitting on the Vietnam veterans as they returned home and calling them baby killers. You haven't changed a bit.
That was before my time and no one actually spat on any American Vietnam vets - even those baby killers that may have deserved it - that was a urban myth.
#91. To: Liberator (#70)
But...but...what about Bubba Clinton and his shrewish wife, Hitlery? Aren't they two of your socialist heroes? Heck -- Hitlery was even fired upon disembarking from her 'Cankles I' jet in Bosnia? Or was it Muzzie-controlled Kosovo?
I have repeatedly called the Clintons war criminals for what Bill did in Yugoslavia and what Hillary did in Libya - what the fuck is wrong with you that you keep thinking I am defending the Clintons? And that asshole war criminal scumbag Bush, jr recognized Kosovo as an independent country.
#92. To: SOSO (#85)
Check.
When you follow the links and read the stories, there are very few actual victims or witnesses in these stories. It's like reading through the links from InfoWars or PrisonPlanet stories: you find that the linked material used to support the main story aren't true or are greatly overstated.
I do recall first hearing these stories in the early Eighties and I wondered at the time why we were only hearing about this supposed widespread spitting-on-troops so long after the war was ended and even the draft dodgers got pardoned.
#93. To: hondo68 (#89)
B-1 Bob Dornan knows...
I wish they'd bring him back as a military correspondent on Fox News. He made every story more exciting, usually by saying something really wild.
#94. To: Percy Misanthrope, SOSO, Deckard, A K A Stone, cranky, nativist nationalist, misterwhite, Liberator (#71)
The consensus opinion of other POWs in McCain's camps was that McCain was NEVER tortured by the North Vietnamese. 1
#95. To: SOSO, TooConservative (#77)
Considered an urban legend.No one can ever cite a single instance, find any victims or witnesses to spitting on the Vietnam vets.
Do you know of any documented cases?
I just stated it is an urban legend, also before I read your comment. It seems an expression (they disrespected us = spit on us) became actual incidents of spitting in urban legend tellings but even disrespecting of vets was not the norm.
In any case, the USA killed over a million Vietnamese - 90+% if which were civilians and poisoned their country with Agent Orange. Most of the civilians killed were by the air forces. That is a post WW2 war crime.
#96. To: SOSO, Deckard, A K A Stone, cranky, nativist nationalist, misterwhite, Liberator, Percy Misanthrope, (#76)
Can you possibly be more dishonest? He got way more than a deferment he eventually got a medical pass.
You have made the charge. Therefore it is incumbent on you to prove his medical exemption was not a valid one. Do it!
#97. To: TooConservative, SOSO (#92)
When you follow the links and read the stories, there are very few actual victims or witnesses in these stories. It's like reading through the links from InfoWars or PrisonPlanet stories: you find that the linked material used to support the main story aren't true or are greatly overstated.I do recall first hearing these stories in the early Eighties and I wondered at the time why we were only hearing about this supposed widespread spitting-on-troops so long after the war was ended and even the draft dodgers got pardoned.
It had to do with the Vietnam vets were super badasses movies of the 80s from Rambo to Chuck Norris to Oliver Stone's movie. The general consensus was the nation was making up for all the metaphorical spitting aka disrespecting of the Vietnam era troops.
Also, this was the era where the POW/MIA myth came about - the myth being the Commies were holding Americans in bamboo tiger cages for some reason. All proven fake long ago but the POW/MIA flags still fly all over the place.
There was no - repeat - no POW/MIAs held after the fact as some sort of commie plot.
#98. To: hondo68 (#89)
B-1 Bob Dornan knows, McCain is a POS!
http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/a-clockwork-orange/b1-bob-vs-maverick-1/
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.â€
#99. To: SOSO (#78)
Of course they wouldn't but I certainly would.
Then you are merely stating an unqualified personal opinion, which of course you are entitled to do.
I respect that, but I prefer to listen tp someone "who has been there and personally knows people who have done that."
#100. To: hondo68 (#89)
Republicans Allege McCain Covered Up His Collaboration with the North Vietnamese While a POW
Allegations resurface that McCain made propaganda statements and tried to keep Viet Cong records about him classified.
AlterNet
September 20, 2008
COMMENT NOW!
A 1992 video featuring a Republican senator, Republican congressman and top Capitol Hill staffers who worked on Vietnam prisoner of war and missing in action issues say John McCain collaborated with North Vietnamese while a POW, and then covered up that involvement to the detriment of POW/MIA families seeking access to classified Pentagon records about their own family members.
Watch the Video
The video raises probing questions about the 2008 Republican presidential nominee's war record, especially after McCain made his captivity a major part of his qualifications for the presidency at the Republican National Convention. In 2004, the GOP focused on Democratic nominee John Kerry's war record to criticize his candidacy.
To date, the video has been posted on a handful of blogs but has been ignored by the mainstream media. While it features Republican stalwarts on POW/MIA issues, it also suggests that McCain's war records at the Pentagon and in North Vietnam would reveal potentially very controversial details about the GOP's presidential candidate.
The nearly eight-minute video is posted on YouTube under "Vietnam Veterans Against McCain." It begins with the title, "1992 Senate Select Committee on POW/MIAs," and features ex-Sen. Bob Smith (R-NH), Rep. Robert Dornan (R-CA), senate staffers Tracy Usry, James Lucier, and military family members Lynn O'Shea, of the National Alliance of Families and retired Army Cpl. Bob Dumas, whose brother was a POW lost in the Korean War, and Joseph Douglass, Jr., author of Betrayed, about America's missing POWs. The video has no author credits.
The footage begins with Douglass, Usry, O'Shea and Smith all saying that McCain worked to kill legislation that would have opened the Pentagon's classified archive of POW/MIA files. "Many, many documents were held back for no reason," former Sen. Smith said. Dorman said legislation that passed the House with no opposing votes was single-handedly blocked in the Senate by McCain. "On the Senate side, we had one person standing in the way," Dornan said, referring to McCain.
Dumas then gave the reason why - the Pentagon's records would reveal McCain had collaborated with the Vietnamese. "He didn't want nobody to check his background because a lot of POWs who were with him in the camp said he was a collaborator with the enemy," Dumas said. "He gave the enemy information they wanted."
Lucier, identified as a former U.S. Senate Chief of Staff, said "we do know that when he was over there, he cooperated with Communist news services in giving interviews that were not flattering to the United States." Usry, identified as U.S. Senate Minority Staff former chief investigator, said "information shows that he made over 32 tapes of propaganda for the Vietnamese government."
Dornan said there were transcripts of other POWs reacting to McCain's false statements, saying, "Oh my God, is that Admiral McCain's son Is that the admiral's son? Is that Johnny, telling us that our principle targets are schools, orphanages, hospitals, temples, churches? That was Jane Fonda's line." Dornan said those transcripts are in war museums in North Vietnam, where McCain, as a senator, pressured the country not to release them or face opposition concerning normalization of relations with the United States.
"McCain could not have wanted those to turn up in the middle of a presidential race," the ex-congressman said. "He knows that. I know that. And a few other people know that. That's why he was against Bob Dole's legislation."
Dornan then offered another interesting explanation why McCain refused an offer by the North Vietnamese to be released. Dornan said those released first were collaborators, which would have ended McCain's military career and hurt the Navy, where his father commanded the Pacific fleet.
"Nobody takes that one step beyond that," Dornan said, speaking of McCain's refusal to be released. "If Admiral John McCain's son had accepted this princely status and come home in 1967, while others sat there for five years, what would the Navy have done with the son of an admiral who opted to get special treatment and come home? No Navy career. No House seat. No Senate seat. It would have been the end of his career."
Steven Rosenfeld is a Senior Fellow at AlterNet.org, where he reports on elections from a voting rights perspective. His books include Count My Vote: A Citizen's Guide to Voting (AlterNet Books, 2008), What Happened in Ohio: A Documentary Record of Theft and Fraud in the 2004 Election (The New Press, 2006), and Making History in Vermont: The Election of a Socialist to Congress (Hollowbrook Publishing, 1992). An award-winning journalist, he has been a staff reporter at National Public Radio, Monitor Radio, TomPaine.com, and at daily and weekly newspapers in Vermont.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.â€
#101. To: Deckard (#2)
As much as I despise McStain, at least he served.
Third generation Annapolis.
That should have guaranteed him an Admiral's flag.
There's got to be a reason why he never got flag rank.
There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't
#102. To: Gatlin, Deckard, A K A Stone, cranky, nativist nationalist, misterwhite, Liberator, Percy, Misanthrope, (#96)
Therefore it is incumbent on you to prove his medical exemption was not a valid one. Do it!
He couldn't remember which foot it was when just asked. Are you kidding?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#103. To: SOSO (#76)
I don't see where it states what his medical deferment was for....do you?
The important we need to find out if the deferment was valid....right?
If it was not, then we can condemn him. On the other hand, if it was....then?
#104. To: SOSO (#102)
Therefore it is incumbent on you to prove his medical exemption was not a valid one. Do it!He couldn't remember which foot it was when just asked. Are you kidding?
Because he couldn't immediately remember which foot it was....that makes him a liar?
Are YOU kidding?
There are many possible reasons he could not immediately remember....but of course you will never consider that, right?
#105. To: TooConservative (#92)
I do recall first hearing these stories in the early Eighties and I wondered at the time why we were only hearing about this supposed widespread spitting-on-troops so long after the war was ended and even the draft dodgers got pardoned.
Becuase it took a long time after the war for people to stop treating and thinking of the Vietnam Vet like a POS. I clearly remember those days and how many of my acquaintenances freely expresswed their deep disquest at these vets. It was and remains a national embrassment. Few of these vets were enlisted men, most were drafted. They answered the call. They deserved much better treatment when they returned home. Save for the ones that broke down and committed autrocitites of their own, in my mind they are all heroes.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#106. To: Gatlin (#104)
There are many possible reasons he could not immediately remember....but of course you will never consider that, right?
Reason #1: He is a lying sack of sh*t.
All other possible reasons are of considerably less probability.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#107. To: Gatlin (#104)
Because he couldn't immediately remember which foot it was....that makes him a liar?Are YOU kidding?
Not at all. I still remember my lottery number. In fact, Trump still remembers his. I guess that was more memorable than the medical condition that got him totally out of the draft. Riiiiiiiight.......................................
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#108. To: TooConservative, Vicomte13 (#93)
B-1 Bob DornanI wish they'd bring him back as a military correspondent on Fox News.
He's the kind of works based Catholic we need on the Supreme Court?
#109. To: SOSO (#35)
Look up McCain's story as a prisoner of war. Tell me that you would have 1/10th the balls and courage that he had to endure that torture when he was offered an easy way out by the enemy.
Boy; you RINO's are clueless. The reason folks here don't like McCain has everything to do with conduct in the US Senate. Your boy McCain worked hand in hand with his BFF Obama to arm the groups fighting the government of Syria, which proved indispensable to the rise of ISIS. Same thing in Libya. ISIS could never have reached the level of success they enjoy today with out the aid and comfort provided by your boy McCain.
Your guy Jihad Johnny worked with Clinton to help establish an Islamic foothold in Kosovo. He lied about building "that danged fence." Jihad Johnny sides with the enemies of America.
I really appreciate that Trump is driving you RINO bootlickers nuts. You guys have been stabbing America in the back, it is nice to see you guys suffer.
#110. To: nativist nationalist (#109)
Boy; you RINO's are clueless. The reason folks here don't like McCain has everything to do with conduct in the US Senate
First, I am not a fan of McCain or many of his positions, so knock the stupid gratuitous attempts at a jab off. Second, I don't care if they like him or not. Third, I don't care why they may like him or why they may not. He served his country honorably during the Vietnam war and that's a whole lot more than anyone can say about Trump. The only people that Dollar Donald sides with are those that can line his pockets. And he doesn't care who they are, what they are, where they are from or even if they hate America. He'll sell America out faster than just about anyone if he can make money on the deal.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#111. To: TooConservative, SOSO (#105)
I do recall first hearing these stories in the early Eighties and I wondered at the time why we were only hearing about this supposed widespread spitting-on- troops so long after the war was ended and even the draft dodgers got pardoned.
The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory and the Legacy of Vietnam is a 1998 book by sociologist Jerry Lembcke. The book argues that the common claim that American soldiers were spat upon and insulted by anti-war protesters upon returning home from the Vietnam War is an urban legend intended to discredit the anti-war movement.
A 1971 Harris poll conducted for the Veterans Administration found over 90 percent of Vietnam veterans reporting a friendly homecoming. Far from spitting on veterans, the antiwar movement welcomed them into its ranks and thousands of veterans joined the opposition to the war.
#112. To: Gatlin (#111) (Edited)
The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory and the Legacy of Vietnam is a 1998 book by sociologist Jerry Lembcke.
The last thing In the world I want to hear is testimony from a sociologist. For the last 60 years I have met damned few sociologists who weren't socialists with a mission. The same is true of social psychologists. They seem inclined to revise and distort history to support the left.
#113. To: SOSO (#110)
First, I am not a fan of McCain or many of his positions, so knock the stupid gratuitous attempts at a jab off. Second, I don't care if they like him or not.
BS; you're a big shill for the RINO establishment RNC types. Those A-hole have pissed all over rank and file voters for decades when it comes to illegal aliens and trade deals like NAFTA, WTO and Obamatrade. Before Trump ever made inroads with these voters you guys tossed their votes away. You guys think that peoples votes are some sort of entitlement program. You've got to earn votes, you don't get those votes by stabbing the same voters in the back.
#114. To: nativist nationalist, SOSO (#113)
Who does SOSO support?
#115. To: A K A Stone (#114)
Who does SOSO support?
From his posting history he seems to be most impressed by Hillary. I'm sure that if he cannot have Hillary, then Graham, Christy, Perry, Jeb or Rubio will give him 90% of what he expects to get from Hillary.
#116. To: SOSO (#110)
McCain a hero.
BS, he bombed civilian villages from 30,000 feet and got shot down. He has been an enemy to this country since. He's no hero.
Trump is the bull in the china shop where the GOP is planning their gay wedding dinner. Who cares if he's legit, he's exposing our enemies.
"There are plenty of other things to be concerned about. Terrorism - not so much." - Deckart
#117. To: hondo68 (#108)
He's the kind of works based Catholic we need on the Supreme Court?
Troll much?
#118. To: TooConservative, hondo68 (#117)
He's the kind of works based Catholic we need on the Supreme Court?
Troll much?
That's all he does....isn't it?
#119. To: SOSO (#107) (Edited)
Because he couldn't immediately remember which foot it was....that makes him a liar?Are YOU kidding?
Not at all. I still remember my lottery number. In fact, Trump still remembers his. I guess that was more memorable than the medical condition that got him totally out of the draft. Riiiiiiiight.......................................
Some people just cannot sometimes instantly remember things in the heat of the moment.
Let’s do a memory check on your hero, McCain:
“I recognized the target sitting next to the small lake from the intelligence photographs I had studied,” John McCain recalled in Faith of My Fathers. “I dove in on it just as the tone went off signaling that a SAM was flying toward me. I knew I should roll out and fly evasive maneuvers. . .But I was just about to release my bombs when the tone sounded, and had I started jinking [maneuvering to evade the SAM] I would have never had the time nor, probably, the nerve to go back in once I had lost the SAM. So, at about 3,500 feet, I released my bombs, then pulled back the stick to begin a steep climb to a safer attitude. In the instant before my plane reacted, a SAM blew my right wing off. I was killed.”
By his own admission, then, McCain failed to follow instructions in combat. He did not try to evade the missile. Moreover, the pilots who were flying near him, one of them with a handheld camera, said he was not hit by a SAM. He had flown too low and was brought down by a barrage of antiaircraft fire. Since a SAM exploded in a bright orange fireball visible for miles around, it was unlikely that they had called it wrong. And since official navy records listed John McCain as downed by AAA fire, they were puzzled by why he later insisted in his political campaigns that it was a SAM.
As other pilots saw it, John McCain, quite simply, had got himself shot down.
But McCain also made another error in the next four to six seconds after he was hit. He failed to use the proper procedure he had been taught for ejecting. As a result, he injured himself critically, breaking both arms and his right leg.
McCain’s memory was not vivid enough for him to remember to follow his training and “break” when he should have. So, he admitted that he got his ass shot down. Then his memory failed again when he did not use proper ejection procedures and busted himself up.
These “Rote Memory” procedures are embedded in your memory for instant recall. I know of one guy who scared the Hell out of his wife when he sat straight up in bed one night and screamed, “BREAK RIGHT, BREAK RIGHT” when having a bad dream.
So, I guess that McCain’s loss of memory that got him shot down and severely injured during ejection is okay with you while you condemn Trump’s momentarily loss of memory. Riiiiiiiight.......................................?
John McCain is no hero. John McCain simply did what he was trained to do....but sometimes forgot to do, when his memory failed him.
#120. To: cranky (#0)
To be captured means to be a hero!
#121. To: Gatlin, hondo68 (#118) (Edited)
That's all he does....isn't it?
Not really. I just saw no reason to try to drag a heated exchange from another thread (about the USSC and Catholic justices appointed by GOP presidents) into a thread about Trump/McCain. Notice he flagged Vic to it as well. Where's the connection to this thread? Well, there isn't any.
#122. To: TooConservative, gatlin, tater (#121)
Where's the connection to this thread?
Yeah, there's none. I just threw that in because Bob Dornan seems like an example of a good Catholic. There's a lot of Catholic bashing around here, but trolling might not be a good response. Sorry.
Gatlin's evil couch Catholics
#123. To: A Pole (#120)
"To be captured means to be a hero!"
The press is not used to candidates hitting back hard.
McCain called Trump's supporters "crazies". Trump was not going to let that stand, so he said that being a POW does not make one a "war hero". He's right. It's just that you're not supposed to say that.
Fine. Then don't call Trump's supporters "crazies".
Quite frankly, I want a guy like that as President. I think this country needs a guy like that as President.
#124. To: SOSO, A K A Stone (#13)
What do you disagree with?
A guy with the moral values to call his future wife to the national press a great piece of ass.
Have you taken a close look at McCain’s moral values? I think not, let’s do so now.
|
And you, SOSO, will condemn “a guy (Trump) with the moral values to call his future wife to the national press a great piece of ass” while you give a free pass to McCain on his “moral values” and call him a hero.
Aren’t you being grossly hypocritical? It surely looks like you are.
#125. To: hondo68 (#108)
"Works"...are not deeds. They're mitzvot under Torah. Specifically, works are: first fruits tithes, regular tithes, shekel head tax, making a grain or meat peace offering, making a grain our meat goodwill offering, having a libation poured out to the Lord; salting grain and incense; washing cups and plates and utensils; taking and keeping a Nazirite vow.
Those are the "works" to which Paul referred, that are unavailing.
They are thoroughly distinguishable from "acts" or "deeds", required by Jesus, the performance or non- performance of which are requisites for acceptability by God.
You cannot gain salvation by paying a shekel to the Temple and sactificing a flock of lambs and ten thousand rivers of oil. Those are works under the law, mitzvot, and they do not avail you.
On the other hand, if you have, and you ignore the naked, the beggar, the hungry and homeless, if you turn up your nose and refuse to help, and condemn, then you have failed to do the deeds that Jesus required, and you have done deeds that will get you damned. Jesus said that as you treated the least of these, you shall be treated.
Martin Luther and his followers completely failed to understand the meaning of mitzvot/works, and taught the ridiculous idea that what you DO is a "work", and that what you DO doesn't matter because Paul (not Jesus, JUST Paul, in only one or two places) said that works are nothing.
Well, sacrifices and oil and libation and Temple Tax really IS all nothing - the Temple is gone.
But what you DO, your DEEDS, ALWAYS mattered, and always will. Jesus said so. John said so. James said so. Peter said so. And Paul said so too, throughout what he wrote. The sentence or two referring to mitzvot under the law applied to just precisely that, which Luther and his ilk didn't even understand.
Jesus judges men on their DEEDS. He repeated that dozens of time. Even if Paul DID mean "deeds" when he wrote "works" (he did not - "works" are mitzvot under the law, and nothing else. Deeds are not works, unless they are codified by the Torah - only negative one are: don't kill, for example), then Paul must be disregarded, for he was a man, and a mere man cannot in two sentences override pages and pages of direct statements by God Incarnate.
Deeds-based Christians are the only real Christians. Christians who say that what you do does not matter are illiterate, blind and stubborn fools. Jesus spoke about that sort.
#126. To: hondo68 (#122)
Mr. Grinch and the Mouth of Sauron, together at last. What a picture.
#127. To: Vicomte13 (#125)
Jesus judges men on their DEEDS.
With all due respect, Jesus judges mens' heart.
#128. To: Liberator (#127)
With all due respect, Jesus judges mens' heart.
I think Vic is correct.
Because if in your heart you are thinking of sinning but you don't. You haven't.
I believe that it has to be an action not just a random thought that you don't act on.
#129. To: nativist nationalist (#109)
The reason folks here don't like McCain has everything to do with conduct in the US Senate.Your boy McCain worked hand in hand with his BFF 0buma to arm the groups fighting the government of Syria, which proved indispensable to the rise of ISIS. Same thing in Libya. ISIS could never have reached the level of success they enjoy today with out the aid and comfort provided by your boy McCain.
Your guy Jihad Johnny worked with Clinton to help establish an Islamic foothold in Kosovo. He lied about building "that danged fence." Jihad Johnny sides with the enemies of America.
Spot ON.
John McStain has demonstrated by deed AND word nothing but contempt and disdain for the American people as a Senator for decades. He has insulted and dishonored us, by word, by deed. He is unworthy of an iota of respect. It has taken the courage of a Donald Trump to shout it from the Mountain. I consider it a good start.
I am sick of the expectation and demand by media and political sycophants that by virtue of royal title or past achievement or sacrifice, scoundrels and traitors like John McCain can NOT have a glove laid on them for the rest of their lives.
#130. To: misterwhite (#123) (Edited)
Being shot down doesn't make you a war hero. It means you're unlucky.
If we want to say that every soldier who serves in wartime is a "hero"...well, hell, the society calls cops and firemen "heroes" just for being.
It's just blah-blah.
Benedict Arnold was a great general at one point. What he did later tainted that to the point that it doesn't matter.
McCain hasn't sullied himself the way that Arnold did. McCain's military service was a long time ago. He went to Annapolis, but so did I. He flew for the navy off of aircraft carriers, in a war, but so did I, in two wars actually. He got shot down and bailed out. I flew helicopters, so had I been shot down there would have been no bailing out, just a quick fall and a very, very hard landing.
He was shot down, which was unlucky. He was injured in the bail out, which was unlucky. The enemy did not treat him gently with his wounds. but treated him roughly, which meant that his wounds caused him immense pain. This is very unlucky, and does not show the enemy to have been very civilized.
But consider: McCain and I went to Annapolis, flew planes off our carriers, were in wars. He was involved in the destruction of three aircraft - very unlucky. I never scratched the paint on one - and I had some emergencies.
Therefore, I am more qualified to be President of the United States, and US Senator, than he is?
Really?
No, not really.
Military service decades ago is irrelevant to qualification for any office. It looks good, and people feel that it's more important than it is. What matters is what you think, what you do, your heart, your honesty, your integrity.
McCain was a bully who cheated on the wife that waited for him, treated her horribly, dumped her, and married a rich woman. So did Gingrich.
Those aspects of character are important, because they go do honesty, and they go to how a person will really behave when he WANTS SOMETHING, badly. Will he break vows and abuse people to get what he wants? That is a much better measure of a man's character: the guy who puts down the drink and says "You're beautiful, but I've gotta go home" and who doesn't stick his dick in the hottie because he can and dump the wife and kids. That sort of character matters a whole lot more in terms of passing the moral test of Washington - where temptations abound - then the fact that you wore a spiffy uniform and flew airplanes in danger.
We should recall that in his country, Hitler was a "medal of honor" winner - he won the Knights Cross in World War I, a rarity for an enlisted man. The fact that he was a war hero, certified and bemedalled, was of immense value to him politically as he rose: people glom onto military glory and praise it. That didn't work out so well.
McCain had a less praiseworthy military career than I did, or than Hitler for that matter. Hitler won the Knight's Cross in World War I, a gruelling affair in which he was injured. McCain got a lesser award for surviving getting shot down in a rice paddy. Hitler was the greater military hero. Did that make for a good political leader? Not exactly.
He got into Annapolis because he was an Admiral's son. I was nobody. He graduated second to last. I graduated with honors. He wrecked three aircraft. I didn't wreck any. We both flew in war, and I had more qualifications: I drove ships as well as flying aircraft, being "dual designated".
You all know me from this board, and a great number of you really dislike me. If McCain's military service qualifies him to lead you, then mine qualifies me more.
I know that's ridiculous. My service doesn't qualify me to do anything other than fly what are now old planes and helos, and drive old ships. McCain is the same. Being a Prisoner of War was really unlucky, and one can be happy he made it out. But I was at Ground Zero that day and made it out of something too.
Does that qualify ME for leadership over you? No. And nothing McCain did in the military qualifies him to lead either.
His raging temper, alcoholism, sense of entitlement, and adultery are all examples of the poor judgment and poor personal control in his life that are reflected in the poor judgment he brings to politics. My better judgment in personal life DOES make me more qualified to be President of the United States and US Senator than McCain. But I'm not vainglorious the way he is, and I didn't dump my first wife for a rich woman to enable a political life, like he did. And others.
McCain's a jerk. That he flew planes once upon a time is a recormmendation for nothing. I did too. So what?
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