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Title: This is why it is so important you read the word of God, in the original Hebrew and Greek, yourself and not take what others say it says.
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ChristianPatriot.com
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Published: May 14, 2015
Author: Pastor Bob Celeste for ACP
Post Date: 2015-05-14 09:05:01 by BobCeleste
Keywords: ACP
Views: 69309
Comments: 248
This is why it is so important you read the word of God, in the original Hebrew and Greek, yourself and not take what others say it says. This is how Malachi 3:9 is represented in various interpretations. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. (KJV) With a curse ye are cursed! And Me ye are deceiving--this nation--all of it. (YLT) Ye are cursed with the curse; for ye rob me, even this whole nation. (ASV) You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation. (NKJV) You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me; the whole nation of you. (RSV) You are cursed with the curse; for you rob me, even this whole nation. (WEB) Notice how everyone of the above translations say "Ye or you are cursed with the curse" But that is not what the original Hebrew says. Here is what the original Hebrew says: Ye are cursed {'arar} with a curse {m@erah}: for ye have robbed {qaba`} me, even this whole nation {gowy}. Let's look at the Hebrew words 'arar and m@erah. 'arar is a primitive root; to execrate:--X bitterly curse m@erah is an execration:--curse. The original does not say You are cursed, it says cursed with a curse, meaning it could either be you are cursed with a curse or you cursed with a curse, in one it is God doing the cursing in the other it is it is God being cursed. God's word is to important to trust others with it, your salvation is to important, you need to take it into your own hands not rely upon the word or interpretation of others.
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#168. To: TooConservative (#149)
So Bob is on very solid ground scripturally. God for him. Wait.....wait.....is that God laughing?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Agreed, it's either up or down. "Put your salvation in no hands, read the word of God yourself and ignore commentary, read some exhortations if yu are having difficulty, but don't even do that till you have reached out to Christ thru the Spirit for help and understanding." My faith was secured a long time ago and remains unshaken. And yes, we are all sinners. And yes salavtion is a very personal thing. And yes sinners can go to Heaven. But only God knows what is in a man's heart and what deeds a man has or has not done. Only God will judge, even in the case of a death bed conversion of a thief on the cross. I would not presume to claim to know the God of mind. I am reasonably certain that there are a lot of very surprised Christians in Hell who thought they were going to Heaven, including ones that believed that they kept the faith and the word.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
From your words. You seem to indicate that hell is already open for business. Is that as correct interpretation of your words?
Hasn't it been for quite some time?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
I thought that happened after judgement day. After the dead are raised from their graves.
That is not my understanding. Remember Dante's Inferno, where Judas, among others, resides?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Perha ps this will clarify the Roman Catholic CHurch's teaching on the subject. "I. THE PARTICULAR JUDGMENT 1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul--a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593 1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.596 At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.597"
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
What, in Scripture, would have you believe that?
Try dying in a state of mortal sin. No man, save Christ, is perfect. Each of us commit mortal sins from time to time. Well....I guess I should say most of us as you apparantly have not and never will. The rest of us have to rely on repentance to remove the stain on our souls and get back into God's grace. This is far as I am going to engage with you on this subject.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
How about from scripture. Since it "repeatedly" affirms it. It should be easy to find the verses your quote is mentioning. Because I know that that isn't true I wont bother looking. Show me when you find it. You wont though.
This is far as I am going to engage with you on this subject. He asked a legitimate question. You dodged it.
I don't read the words "mortal sin" in the Bible. What differentiates "mortal Sin" from regular old "sin". What is the scriptural basis for using the word "mortal" in front of it? I've heard the phrase before maybe you can help me understand it.
John 5;17 tells us All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. So just wondering why call some sin mortal sin. It seems extra biblical.
The thief on the cross for one example.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Yep. And I will dodge all such questions on this subject and most subjecta on what exactly Scripture says or doesn't say. Why do you think that there are so many sects of Christianity? Debating the differences between them has long ago stopped being informative or fun and has become useless. I will not engage much, if at all, inthis fool's game. Any questions?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Perhaps to you it does. Who am I to try to convince you otherwise?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Do you believe in that Christians should proselytize each other, e.g. - Methodist proselytizing Catholics, Baptists proselytizing Episcopalians? I don't do that to other Christians and I certainly don't appreciate someone trying to proselytize me. Any questions?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
I could probably write up a long essay of how I see things work, but that would likely (and understandably) exceed your interest and therefore would not be a productive use of time. But I'll try summarize. Your question implies that salvation is an element that is required, and that any faith system must account for it, because of the nature of sin being incompatible with God's perfection and so forth. But the need for salvation does not exist under the Newton model. Please hear me out as I explain. Let's look at the big picture. Christian theology is based on the idea that we are primarily human beings, flesh and blood, and the eternal soul is created as a byproduct of human conception. For that reason, once the body dies, the soul is then released to it's ultimate destination and can (understandably) never again be part of a new human life since any new human life would have it's own soul. God created man in his image, hand made from dust, as opposed to the animals which were spoken into existance, which is the reason man is considered the children of God and of special worth above the worth of animals. Jesus took human form in order to be able to understand our hardships firsthand, and therefore intercede on our behalf, dying on the cross once and for all for the atonement of sin. All in all, not an unreasonable theology. But by way of comparison, this is what the Newton model says. We are NOT primarily human. We are primarily souls. Souls are NOT created as a byproduct of human conception. Souls are instead, according to Newton, literally born of God in the spirit world. My next statement is not what Newton says, as he never makes any comparison of his findings to Christianity, but what I infer is, because we are not primarily human, the idea that Jesus would need to take human form for the benefit of atonement of souls breaks down. Souls are NOT human, and have no direct relation to human DNA. Our human nature is only incidental, so it's illogical (in my view) that a human sacrifice would/could attone for the salvation of souls that are not in any way human. This model makes more logical sense that the Judeo-Christian model for the following reasons: 1) The reason we are special and loved by God is because we are souls born of God in the spirit world, not because we are human beings born on earth. This makes us "Children of God" in a completely literal sense. 2) Earth no longer needs to be the center of the universe. If there is intelligent alien life elsewhere in the universe, there are no issues with the potential need for them to have their own Jesus dying as a member of that alien race for their own alien sins. The Bible says Jesus died once (as a human) for all time (correct me if I'm wrong), which would seem to leave any non-human, alien souls up a creek with no opportunity for their own salvation. Under the Newton model, alien life with souls (should any exist) poses no theological problem, so there is no need for earth to be considered particularly special -- which means the possible existence of trillions of other earth-like planets, even those teeming with life, poses no theological problem either. 3) There need be nothing special about human DNA. We are permanently loved, immortal, in spite of our temporarily inhabiting primate bodies. Under the Christian model, human DNA needs to be somehow special, being able to cause the spiritual entity (soul) to come into existence. But why does human conception create a soul, whereas chimp conception does not? Under the Newton model, there are no issues, even if we did evolve from apes. All in all, we have a portrait of a God and spirit world that is 100% based in love and positive reinforcement, not negative reinforcement (hell, purgatory, condemnation, though souls will sometimes put themselves though something akin to purgatory). We as souls have an enormous incentive to further our spiritual development and that is what life is about. We have a God with infinite patience, not patience that runs out when someone dies. It is, objectively, a more perfect world, a more perfect love, and more logically sound. The whole need for atonement of sin for salvation is, in comparison with the Newton model, frankly.... "crude" in a way because we just don't have the clean logic and many moral answers to life's mysteries and difficulties that Newton's portrait gives us. So to answer your question, there is no need for salvation. There is instead a desire to grow and develop spiritually, one life at a time, and that is the reason each and every one of us is here on earth, even with all it's hardships and tragedy. Thanks for reading.
Because it provides mock authority to walk around with your chest proudly puffed out instead of being faced with mere chronic obsession with mythology. We have one hundred eighty five posts of trivial boredom and irrelevance while important things are going on in the world.
Well for one. They just make stuff up like hell is already started. When that is in direct contradiction to what scripture clearly says. So you make an assertion Then you can't defend it. Then you say I won't talk about scripture. We're supposed to talk about it to understand it better.
That is a good example. I'll have to look more clearly at what was said. Wasn't it paradise that was said?
Well you are clearly a well read and smart individual. I just wondered why that word is used in front of sin when it isn't found in the Bible.
You seem to think this Newton guy has all the answers. No one else does but him. Just saying.
There are no aliens. SHow me otherwise if you can.
That occurred to me as well. Then I recalled his other post about Judas being in hell according to Dante's Inferno, a 14th-century religious poem, first of three in his trilogy of epic poems on Heaven, Hell and Purgatory (the others being named Purgatorio and Paradiso). You can reach conclusions like this if you freely mix medieval religious literature like the Inferno with the Bible. Mix and match fun! So maybe you don't need to wonder all that much. It's comparable to some Prot freely mixing ideas from scripture and Pilgrim's Progress, written in the 16th century. Like Dante's trilogy, both impacted the content of religion in their time but they never formed any formal body of theology. You can't really learn much from them about scriptural teachings that you could not learn better and more accurately from just reading scripture itself.
Just saying. What I find notable about Newton's work is that it presents a model of life that provides *lots* of clean answers. The love works better, there's no conflict with science, no codemnation from God, full accountability, complete free will, life is completely fair no matter what circumstances we are born into, life, including hardships and tragedy has a very practical purpose serving us (instead of just the obtuse "God's glory"). With the Christian model, people can burn in hell forever even though they never even had a chance to hear the Gospel and/or died young. That is inherently unfair, but justified with the line of thought that it's God's right, as creator of all, to send us there even though a person never had a chance to be saved. Under Newton's model, this doesn't happen, leaving absolutely no space for even a claim that God is unfair, which like it or not, there is room for under Christianity. Everything falls into place. It's an arrangement that I would ask why God would not have set up in the first place, given that it has such objectively superior qualities. Does Newton know all the answers? He'd say no, but what answers he does have simply makes a lot more sense. It's the kind of thing that makes me think, if Newton's a fraud, he's a genius of a fraud. And net searches don't even turn up any substantive material claiming he's a fraud in spite of his books being decades old. I see Newton's work like a decryption key that decodes the mysteries of life much better than Christianity or any other faith or belief system does. The answers are too good for it to be written off.
The size of the universe is beyond comprehension. Even if it's one day shown there is no other life whatsoever in the Milky Way galaxy, there are more galaxies in the universe than people on earth, so there could still be an extremely high probability of life existing in other galaxies. But under Newton, whether alien life exists or not doesn't matter. With Christianity, it does. It frankly seems a repeat of the conflict between the church and Galileo. The church wanted earth to be the center of the universe, while Galileo claimed it was the sun. Now today, earth pretty much needs to be the epicenter of God's creation of life, and humans need to be God's only children. But under Newton's model, there is no need for us humans to hold that monopoly. And that just makes more sense.
I gave you a direct link to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. If you wish to debate the point please take it up with the Pope. I have no interest in engaging in defending the Church's teaching. You are totally free to believe what you do. I am not trying to change your mind. The debate about what Scriptures say or does not say, much less mean or does not mean, is 1,500 years old. Neither one of us has much to contribute to the resolution. Perhaps redleghunter and/or vicomte13 may be willing to engage in this discussion with you. They are much more studied on the Bible than I. I will watch with interest on how this resolves.....but betting that it will not.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Mon dieu, you are absolutely right. There is no Hell. It's a myth.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Read John's First Letter. He is the one who makes the distinction between sin and mortal sin, in the Bible. Also, Jesus speaks of greater and lesser commandments, and YHWH speaks of greater and lesser sins. The Bible is consistent in both Testaments that there are greater and lesser commandments and greater and lesser sins and crimes. John expresses the difference between regular sins and mortal sins. The only reason there's a debate on this, I suppose, is that some folks missed the repeated references in Scriptures to different degrees of commandment and of sin.
I forgot about this thread. Your message pulled me back. I don't have the patience to go back to the beginning and refresh. Please give me a synopsis - what are we talking about?
By mortal sin, I am guessing you mean, in opposition to what Jesus said in John 3:3, but where all who are Born Again are assured eternal salvation, what has that, Try dying in a state of mortal sin, have to do with our conversation?
Guess as you may, nothing I say will stop you or change your mind on things. Is it your contention that all one needs to do to assure entrance into Heaven is to be Born Again?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
And there is also a distinction between the salavation of the soul, whihc many believe occurs at death, and the resurrection of the body, which mant believe believe will occur at the Second Coming. Tough concepts to some, I know. But in the final analysis: потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
I don't know what you are reading to come up with this stuff but this I do know, it is not the Bible, the word of God. So, you go your way, I will stick with God's word and sometime, within the next twenty years I would think, I will find out who is correct, me or you.
Because it provides mock authority to walk around with your chest proudly puffed out instead of being faced with mere chronic obsession with mythology. We have one hundred eighty five posts of trivial boredom and irrelevance while important things are going on in the world. You and so many of your fellow deniers prove the lords point in Luke 18:8b.
This reminds of that great story about a renowned atheist heart surgeon who after opening a patient's chest said to the crowd of eager interns and med students closely packed around him several rows deep "OK, show me the soul." A less than timid voice from the back row responded "OK, show me the pain."
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
I for one believe the basics of Christianity are quite clear. There is no 'haze' as to what exactly the Gospel message is, for example. Jesus proclaimed it, His apostles proclaimed it often in the NT. Even the early church theologians clearly expressed this 'rule of faith' in the various creeds. So, as I see it the Gospel message is quite clear. Jesus Christ proclaimed the Gospel and the apostles preached and taught the Gospel. For an Evangelical in any age, the Gospel is the 'entry point' for all other things Christian. Everything else flows from the Gospel: from baptism, church community and theological positions. This was the simplicity of the message which fishermen by God's Grace were given the light to believe while the most 'religious' of the time were confounded and opposed it.
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28)
Good one Jasper. That's a keeper:)
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28)
Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the nations, by the Way of the Sea, beyond the Jordan..... For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestScripture admonishes us to be sure of our salvation, not to neglect spiritual duties or commit spiritual offenses.
#169. To: BobCeleste, TooConservative (#159)
But believe this, there are only two places you can go after death, Heaven or the lake of fire, there aint no purgatory! You pick that destination while you are still alive, after you die it is to late.
#170. To: SOSO (#169)
. I am reasonably certain that there are a lot of very surprised Christians in Hell who thought they were going to Heaven, including ones that believed that they kept the faith and the word.
#171. To: A K A Stone (#170)
You seem to indicate that hell is already open for business. Is that as correct interpretation of your words?
#172. To: SOSO (#171)
Hasn't it been for quite some time?
#173. To: A K A Stone (#172)
I thought that happened after judgement day. After the dead are raised from their graves.
#174. To: A K A Stone (#172)
#175. To: SOSO (#169)
I am reasonably certain that there are a lot of very surprised Christians in Hell who thought they were going to Heaven, including ones that believed that they kept the faith and the word.
#176. To: BobCeleste (#175)
What, in Scripture, would have you believe that?
#177. To: SOSO (#174)
Repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith.
#178. To: SOSO (#176)
Try dying in a state of mortal sin. No man, save Christ, is perfect. Each of us commit mortal sins from time to time. Well....I guess I should say most of us as you apparantly have not and never will. The rest of us have to rely on repentance to remove the stain on our souls and get back into God's grace.
#179. To: SOSO (#176)
mortal sin
#180. To: SOSO (#176)
#181. To: A K A Stone (#177)
#182. To: A K A Stone (#178)
He asked a legitimate question. You dodged it.
#183. To: A K A Stone (#180)
So just wondering why call some sin mortal sin. It seems extra biblical.
#184. To: A K A Stone (#178)
#185. To: BobCeleste (#165)
Perhaps I was hasty, tell me what you understand salvation to be.
#186. To: BobCeleste (#0)
(Edited)
This is why it is so important you read the word of God, in the original Hebrew and Greek...
#187. To: SOSO (#182)
Yep. And I will dodge all such questions on this subject and most subjecta on what exactly Scripture says or doesn't say. Why do you think that there are so many sects of Christianity?
#188. To: SOSO (#181)
The thief on the cross for one example.
#189. To: SOSO (#183)
Perhaps to you it does. Who am I to try to convince you otherwise?
#190. To: Pinguinite (#185)
not exist under the Newton model
#191. To: Pinguinite (#185)
which would seem to leave any non-human, alien souls up a creek with no opportunity for their own salvation.
#192. To: A K A Stone, SOSO (#180)
So just wondering why call some sin mortal sin. It seems extra biblical.
#193. To: A K A Stone (#190)
You seem to think this Newton guy has all the answers. No one else does but him.
#194. To: A K A Stone (#191)
There are no aliens. SHow me otherwise if you can.
#195. To: A K A Stone, redleghunter, vicomte13 (#187)
We're supposed to talk about it to understand it better.
#196. To: TooConservative, A K A Stone (#192)
You can reach conclusions like this if you freely mix medieval religious literature like the Inferno with the Bible. Mix and match fun!
#197. To: TooConservative (#192)
#198. To: SOSO (#195)
Perhaps redleghunter and/or vicomte13 may be willing to engage in this discussion with you. They are much more studied on the Bible than I. I will watch with interest on how this resolves.....but betting that it will not.
#199. To: SOSO (#176)
Try dying in a state of mortal sin.
#200. To: BobCeleste (#199)
By mortal sin, I am guessing you mean, in opposition to what Jesus said in John 3:3, but where all who are Born Again are assured eternal salvation, what has that, Try dying in a state of mortal sin, have to do with our conversation?
#201. To: Vicomte13, TooConservative, A K A Stone, Bob Celeste (#197)
Read John's First Letter. He is the one who makes the distinction between sin and mortal sin, in the Bible.
#202. To: Pinguinite (#185)
So to answer your question, there is no need for salvation.
#203. To: rlk (#186)
this is why it is so important you read the word of God, in the original ...
#204. To: Pinguinite, BobCeleste, All (#185)
Souls are NOT human, and have no direct relation to human DNA.
#205. To: SOSO, A K A Stone, GarySpFc (#195)
I gave you a direct link to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. If you wish to debate the point please take it up with the Pope. I have no interest in engaging in defending the Church's teaching. You are totally free to believe what you do. I am not trying to change your mind. The debate about what Scriptures say or does not say, much less mean or does not mean, is 1,500 years old. Neither one of us has much to contribute to the resolution.
#206. To: SOSO (#204)
This reminds of that great story about a renowned atheist heart surgeon who after opening a patient's chest said to the crowd of eager interns and med students closely packed around him several rows deep "OK, show me the soul." A less than timid voice from the back row responded "OK, show me the pain."
#207. To: Vicomte13 (#197)
Isaiah 9 New International Version (NIV)
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