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New Discovery! 2023 Hottest in over 120 Million Years 2024 and beyond in prophecy Questions Status: Not Logged In; Sign In Bible Study See other Bible Study Articles Title: This is why it is so important you read the word of God, in the original Hebrew and Greek, yourself and not take what others say it says. Source: ChristianPatriot.com URL Source: [None] Published: May 14, 2015 Author: Pastor Bob Celeste for ACP Post Date: 2015-05-14 09:05:01 by BobCeleste Keywords: ACP Views: 59280 Comments: 248 This is why it is so important you read the word of God, in the original Hebrew and Greek, yourself and not take what others say it says. This is how Malachi 3:9 is represented in various interpretations. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. (KJV) With a curse ye are cursed! And Me ye are deceiving--this nation--all of it. (YLT) Ye are cursed with the curse; for ye rob me, even this whole nation. (ASV) You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation. (NKJV) You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me; the whole nation of you. (RSV) You are cursed with the curse; for you rob me, even this whole nation. (WEB) Notice how everyone of the above translations say "Ye or you are cursed with the curse" But that is not what the original Hebrew says. Here is what the original Hebrew says: Ye are cursed {'arar} with a curse {m@erah}: for ye have robbed {qaba`} me, even this whole nation {gowy}. Let's look at the Hebrew words 'arar and m@erah. 'arar is a primitive root; to execrate:--X bitterly curse m@erah is an execration:--curse. The original does not say You are cursed, it says cursed with a curse, meaning it could either be you are cursed with a curse or you cursed with a curse, in one it is God doing the cursing in the other it is it is God being cursed. God's word is to important to trust others with it, your salvation is to important, you need to take it into your own hands not rely upon the word or interpretation of others. Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 89. #9. To: BobCeleste (#0) It seems to me that 95% of all sermons preached on Malachi are when a preacher and church board are trying to gin up donations. Otherwise, it gets ignored entirely. Just a general observation. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-05-14   11:25:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #13. To: TooConservative (#9) It seems to me that 95% of all sermons preached on Malachi are when a preacher and church board are trying to gin up donations. Otherwise, it gets ignored entirely. That is why you must study on your own. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-14   14:48:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #54. To: BobCeleste (#13) That is why you must study on your own. It really does defy logic to suggest that the eternal fate of a soul would hinge on what academic knowledge one accumulates in a physical brain. Physical brain knowledge consists of a series of synaptic nerves storing information in an electro-chemical format. The rigidity of doctrine really just doesn't work very compatibly with one's spiritual existence. For example, when praying to Jesus, is it important to pronounce his name correctly? This is important because in Spanish, the name "Jesus" is pronounced "Hey-soos", because J's are pronounced like H's, "e" like long "a", and "u" like the long u. So are Spanish speakers who ask "Hey-soos" into their lives not saved because "Jesus" is not "Hey-soos"?. Of course, does anyone today have any clue how Jesus's name was originally pronounced. If we pray to Jesus, but have not only the wrong pronunciation, but the wrong facial image in mind, are we still saved? I hope you get my point: How do we know we are spiritually praying to the correct entity? Assuming the answer is something in the order of: God knows who we mean and reaches back to us and all's well, then doesn't it necessarily mean: We do not need to have perfect understanding of God to be saved? And if we don't need a perfect understanding of God, doesn't that means it's okay to be wrong about things? And why would God really even care about what factual knowledge we have? Wouldn't he care a lot more about how we loved others? Some of my thoughts, if you don't mind them. I don't see any spiritual value in dogmatic head knowledge, because I don't see how it's possible for God to care either. Under the Newton model, things just make a LOT more sense. My 2c. Pinguinite  posted on  2015-05-15   2:43:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #60. To: Pinguinite (#54) Now, here is what I posted: This is why it is so important you read the word of God, in the original Hebrew and Greek, yourself and not take what others say it says. This is how Malachi 3:9 is represented in various interpretations. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. (KJV) With a curse ye are cursed! And Me ye are deceiving--this nation--all of it. (YLT) Ye are cursed with the curse; for ye rob me, even this whole nation. (ASV) You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation. (NKJV) You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me; the whole nation of you. (RSV) You are cursed with the curse; for you rob me, even this whole nation. (WEB) Notice how everyone of the above translations say "Ye or you are cursed with the curse" But that is not what the original Hebrew says. Here is what the original Hebrew says: Ye are cursed {'arar} with a curse {m@erah}: for ye have robbed {qaba`} me, even this whole nation {gowy}. Let's look at the Hebrew words 'arar and m@erah. 'arar is a primitive root; to execrate:--X bitterly curse m@erah is an execration:--curse. The original does not say You are cursed, it says cursed with a curse, meaning it could either be you are cursed with a curse or you cursed with a curse, in one it is God doing the cursing in the other it is it is God being cursed. God's word is to important to trust others with it, your salvation is to important, you need to take it into your own hands not rely upon the word or interpretation of others. If you have some special insight, so be it, but as for me I will continue to study what God said, not what others say He said. I am not smart enough to know what God meant, so I have to go with what He actually said. My mistake is thinking that others care as much as I do. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-15   7:50:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #85. To: BobCeleste (#60) Bob, the Hebrew word that is traditionally translated as "cursed" in English and other languages doesn't actually mean "cursed" in the sense of some pronounced incantation at all. It is much more graphic than that. The literal translation of the word whose Hebrew consonants are ARWR (aror or arar), is "spat upon". "Cursed" in English implies the speaking of imprecatory words, but the Hebrew "aror" means spat upon, as in hawking a loogie. For example, from Genesis, the LITERAL Hebrew of Genesis 3:14 (when God "curses" the serpent), is: "and he-will-exist [YHWH] of powers [Elohiym] will say to the serpent, given that you did this, spat upon are you from all the beasts and from all the life the field, upon the belly you will walk and powder you will eat all the days your life". So, Malachi (which, by the way, means "messenger", which is to say "angel") never says "You are cursed with a curse". What it says, literally, is "You are spat upon with spit...". Which carries precisely the degree of degradation and loathing that anybody in any culture has when contemplating that image. Hhhhhhhhhhh - PTOOOEY - right on ye, ye vile worms. Pretty graphic language, this "ARWR". Vicomte13  posted on  2015-05-15   16:49:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #89. To: Vicomte13 (#85) he literal translation of the word whose Hebrew consonants are ARWR (aror or arar), is "spat upon". So, Malachi (which, by the way, means "messenger", which is to say "angel") never says "You are cursed with a curse". What it says, literally, is "You are spat upon with spit...". Mal 3:9a Ye are cursed ('arar) with a curse (m@erah) From the original post: the Hebrew words 'arar and m@erah. 'arar Strong's 779 is a primitive root; to execrate:--X bitterly curse m@erah Strongs 3994 is an execration:--curse. I'm curious as to where you are getting your definitions. The other problem I have with your explanation is that there are two words, not one, translated as curse, not one. Mal 3:9a Ye are cursed ('arar) with a curse (m@erah) BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-15   17:07:32 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   Replies to Comment # 89. #91. To: BobCeleste (#89) m'erah is a derivative of ARWR. There's one word here, and a derivate. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-05-15 17:14:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #107. To: BobCeleste, Vicomte13 (#89) Mal 3:9 Witha-the-curseb you(pl) (are) cursed,c because/yetd-(it is)me you(pl) (are) robbing/defrauding,e the-nation,f all(-of)g-it. LEXICON—a. -בּ bY- (BDB p. 88), (Hol p. 32), (TWOT 193): ‘with’ [Coh, Keil, Mer, Gla, NICOT, WBC; KJV, NASB, NRSV]. These translate literally the idiomatic Hebrew phase ‘with the curse you are cursed’. Most other commentators and versions employ more idiomatic expressions, given in (c) below. The proclitic bY- denotes here instrument [BDB, Hol]. b. מארה mY¾râ (BDB p. 76), (Hol p. 181), (TWOT 168a): ‘curse’ [all lexica, commentators, and versions], ‘malediction’ [Hol]. c. mas. pl. Niphal part. of ארר ¾rr (BDB p. 76), (Hol p. 28), (TWOT 168): ‘cursed’ [BDB; Coh, Keil, Mer; KJV, NASB, NRSV], ‘inflicted with a curse’ [Hol]. Many translations restructure the Hebrew phrase ‘you are cursed with the curse’: ‘to be under a curse’ [CEV, NIV, NLT], ‘to suffer under a curse’ [JPS], ‘to be greatly cursed’ [NICOT]. Some translations make ‘curse’ the subject, e.g., ‘a curse is on you’ [NJB, REB, TEV]. Most translations express an accomplished event or an enduring state, e.g., ‘you are cursed’. WBC, however, expresses a process: ‘you are being cursed’. d. -ו wY- waw connective (BDB p. 251), (Hol p. 84), (TWOT 519): ‘because’ [Mer; NIV, NJB, REB, TEV, WBC], ‘yet’ [Coh, Keil, Gla, NICOT; JPS], ‘for’ [KJV, NASB, NLT, NRSV]. The emphasis of the clause is on the pronoun ‘me’, attached to this connective [Gla]. e. mas. pl. Qal part. of קבע qb¿ (BDB p. 867), (Hol p. 311), (TWOT 1981) or of עקב ¾qḇ (BDB p. 784), (Hol p. 281), (TWOT 1676): ‘to rob’ [Coh, Mer, Gla, NICOT, WBC; NASB, NIV, NRSV], ‘to defraud’ [JPS], ‘to cheat’ [Hol; NJB, NLT, TEV], ‘to assail insidiously’ [BDB]. Some translations employ modalities: ‘to try to cheat’ [NJB], ‘to go on defrauding’ [JPS], ‘to continue to rob’ [Gla]. All translations employ the English present or present progressive tenses except NLT, which employs the present perfect: ‘has been cheating’. BDB and Hol consider the sense of qbv to be uncertain: it is perhaps ‘to rob’, if indeed qbv is an authentic word and not just the reversal of עקב ¾qḇ ‘to cheat’. f. גּוי gôy (BDB p. 156), (Hol p. 57), (TWOT 326e): ‘nation’ [all lexica, commentators, and versions]. Some translations employ the English demonstrative adjective ‘this’ instead of translating literally the Hebrew definite article: [Coh, Mer, WBC; KJV, NJB]; others employ ‘your’ or the phrase ‘nation of you’ [CEV, JPS, NIV, NLT, NRSV, REB]. Gôy normally refers to the peoples and ethnic groups around Israel, with emphasis upon their paganness. g. constr. of כּל kMl (BDB p. 481), (Hol p. 156), (TWOT 985a). This noun is translated as an adjective: ‘whole’ [BDB; Coh, Keil, NICOT; CEV, JPS, KJV, NASB, NIV, NJB, NLT, NRSV, TEV], ‘all’ [WBC], ‘entire’ [Mer, Gla; REB]. The noun KOl denotes a totality of something [BDB, Hol]. QUESTION—How should בּמּארה bammY¾râ ‘with-the-curse’ be interpreted? 1. It should be interpreted instrumentally, but the identity of the curse is not certain [Mer]. 2. It should be interpreted instrumentally, and the curse referred to is specified in Mal. 3:10–12: it called down bad harvests upon the Jews [Coh, Keil, Gla]. This is parallel to Mal. 2:2, which speaks of a ban on the crops [Gla]. 3. In the surface str ucture of the verse’s syntax, the word functions instrumentally, but there is no specific curse in mind; rather, the expression ‘the curse’ evokes, in fact, all attributes of curses in general. Thus, bammY¾râ ‘with-the-curse’ has adverbial force and denotes ‘greatly cursed’ [NICOT]. QUESTION—How should the waw connective in ואתי wY¾Mṯ1 ‘because/yet-(it is) me’ be interpreted? 1. It should be interpreted as an adversative and translated as or similar to ‘but’ or ‘yet’ [Coh, Keil, Gla, NICOT; JPS]. 2. It should be interpreted as signaling causation and translated as ‘because’ [Mer, WBC; NIV, NJB, REB, TEV]. KJV, NLT, and NRSV translate ‘for’, which appears here to be similar to ‘because’. QUESTION—What is the use of the Niphal participle נארים n¾ r1m ‘being- cursed’? The participle here expresses an action begun in the past but with continuing effect in the present [NICOT]. QUESTION—How should הגּוי כּלּו haggôy kullô ‘the-nation all(-of)-it’ be interpreted? Here כּל kMl is used substantively: ‘all of it (i.e., all of the nation)’. Although there are in the OT certain specialized applications of the appellation gôy to Israel, this term is generally reserved for the pagan nations [Gla]. Here, however, the reference to Israel as gôy (as in Deut. 32:28, Isa. 1:4, and Judg. 2:20) suggests that God in his anger is comparing Israel to a pagan people [NICOT] and is thus rejecting her behavior [Gla]. James Pohlig, An Exegetical Summary of Malachi (Dallas, TX: Summer Institute of Linguistics, 1998), 158–160. GarySpFC  posted on  2015-05-15 23:41:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   End Trace Mode for Comment # 89. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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