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Status: Not Logged In; Sign In Bible Study See other Bible Study Articles Title: Because to two accusatons, I will answer questions Source: [None] URL Source: [None] Published: May 7, 2015 Author: Pastor Bob Celeste ACP Post Date: 2015-05-07 13:16:39 by BobCeleste Keywords: ACP Views: 25239 Comments: 103 Biff Tannen made this accusation: “Many things, probably most, of the things you claim about God and Christianity are not in the bible.” A Pole made this accusation: “Because you make things up that are not in the Scriptures.” In both instances I replied to them asking them to show even one example of the accusation, neither has done so, but, because of the accusation, I have opened a thirty day email account with HushMail.com I will answer any question dealing with my theology or any non prophecy question regarding the Bible. The email address is biblequestions@hushmail.com Don’t believe Biff Tannen or A Pole, ask your own questions and judge for yourself. Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Comments (1-62) not displayed.       .       .       . #63. To: redleghunter, A Pole, Bob Celeste (#55) (Edited) A Pole, I see Red was good enough to refute every single one of your rebuttals quite efficiently and scripturally (thanks, Red.) Did his scriptural citations satisfy you? In you heart, are they truthful? With respect to prayer, the Lord will not relent because you have repeated the same request 50 times rather than only once. God is not hard of hearing. With respect to Mary, she *was* blessed to be chosen as the human mother and vessel of Jesus-the-Man. Yes she is to be honored -- which is not the same as being worshiped or regarded as Jesus' "co-redemptrix." Nor does she "speak" *to* Jesus Christ on our behalf. Candles? The past as Red pointed out was a matter of light, and perhaps symbolism. NOT as a slot machine at church with prayer "payouts" for higher denominations coins. Image my surprise as a child when I was told that my nickel's worth of candle-lighting and prayer would not be taken as seriously by God as the quarter's worth of candles. Statues and images for the purposes of reverence are "graven idols," which clearly violate the Ten Commandments. As an aside, some people (Catholics) who sell their home actually bury small statues of "St. Joseph" (when he's not selling baby aspirin.) They "plant" them in the ground, hoping it brings them "luck." The Rosary *is* a formulaic, repetitive prayer or incantation. No where is there any scripture that instructs the Rosary, nor any mention praying over it currying special favor with the Lord for "completing the circuit." "Holy" water...No, afraid not. It's another marketing tool and un-Biblical rite, and part of the "show" -- as are all the bells and incense. But back to the original issue and your accusation of Bob: “Because you make things up that are not in the Scriptures.” Can you provide example(s) of this? Thanks. Liberator  posted on  2015-05-08   15:59:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #64. To: Gatlin, BobCeleste (#61) I guess we will have to chalk this off as an unknown and let it go....no big deal. Oh, but you've spent so much energy and words on wondering what the meaning of James 1:26 is! (but NOT 1:25-1:33??) We can't let that go! It's too important to satiate your noble hunger for the Word of God, and the context of James (Btw, is 'James' you favorite chapter of the Bible?) More James -- Chapter 3, verses 13-17 (NKJV): "13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy." Liberator  posted on  2015-05-08   16:09:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #65. To: Logsplitter, Bob Celeste (#57) He said it. It's out there, and trust me, the irony was not lost on me. If Bob "said it" EXACTLY as you claim, the burden is on YOU to find it. Or else you're a liar. "Trust" YOU? Lol -- *that* "irony" is not lost on me. Liberator  posted on  2015-05-08   16:11:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #66. To: Biff Tannen (#54) I wouldn't spend too much time on anything those two have to say. I've yet to see a post from either of them they didn't read somewhere else. Yet, you must apparently be spending enough time hanging on our every word if as you say, "I've yet to see a post from either of them they didn't read somewhere else." Anyway, thanks for the unintended compliment. Am I that good that I sound as if I'm published somewhere? Liberator  posted on  2015-05-08   16:14:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #67. To: Liberator (#66) No. Fred Mertz  posted on  2015-05-08   16:15:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #68. To: Gatlin, BobCeleste (#46) I am REALLY interested in what Bob has to say about this, not you. Then you should have PM'd Bob in that case and not made a federal case of your public scriptural question at this forum (which prompts posters to poke at your own motivation and supposed curiosity.) The ad libs are not my own interpretation, they are dictionary definitions of the words….really. And *really* -- there are several meanings to your ad libbed "definitions." But again -- without prior verse and subsequent verses that sandwich James 1:26, the context is...conspicuously missing. NOT that you cared a whit to begin with, Mr. "GOTCHA!" GATLIN: "I do nothing suspiciously." Yeah, I *had* to BOLD this claim of yours. You just think posters have amnesia. You're funny. You are not my teacher, I am not a student and I never do anything without class. As has been said: “Disappointments in life can be a bitch.” How does it feel to get "GOTCHA'd?" Btw, you hardly "disappointed" me; You acted exactly as I expected. Have a fascinating look as James 3:13-17. Liberator  posted on  2015-05-08   16:28:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #69. To: Fred Mertz (#67) (Edited) The ghost William F. Buckley Jr. weighs in....at exactly 21 oz. Liberator  posted on  2015-05-08   16:29:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #70. To: Liberator (#64) (Edited) :) Gatlin  posted on  2015-05-08   16:30:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #71. To: Gatlin (#70) Just answer the questions, F. Lee. (or are you struggling again?) Liberator  posted on  2015-05-08   16:33:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #72. To: Gatlin (#70) Glad to help. :-) Liberator  posted on  2015-05-08   16:34:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #73. To: Liberator (#71) No. Gatlin  posted on  2015-05-08   16:34:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #74. To: Gatlin (#61) Let's use LibertysFlames private email service. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-08   16:40:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #75. To: Liberator (#63) A Pole, I see Red was good enough to refute every single one of your rebuttals quite efficiently and scripturally (thanks, Red.) Did his scriptural citations satisfy you? In you heart, are they truthful? He did a good work in presenting a standard reformed evangelical position, I appreciate it. Yes they are truthful in a sense that they are sincere and honest. I do not mean that I accept it. But to address these differences we would have to depart from the specific Protestant presuppositions. (Situation is different when a difference is not derived from such presuppositions.) A Pole  posted on  2015-05-09   1:06:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #76. To: All (#0) The hushmail account is closed. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-05-14   9:05:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #77. To: A Pole, liberator (#75) But to address these differences we would have to depart from the specific Protestant presuppositions. (Situation is different when a difference is not derived from such presuppositions.) Theological approach does have much to do with the subjects we discuss. However, I did not use Luther, Calvin et. al. as my approach. My approach was to present the evidence from the perspective of the NT church. "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-14   9:13:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #78. To: redleghunter (#77) My approach was to present the evidence from the perspective of the NT church. Perspective of NT Church is preserved in the Orthodox Church. A Pole  posted on  2015-05-14   19:33:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #79. To: A Pole (#78) Perspective of NT Church is preserved in the Orthodox Church. My observations have been many of the traditions of the Orthodox church have origins in the NT scriptures; however, based on my previous comments there are some which have no basis at all. "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-14   22:51:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #80. To: redleghunter (#79) My observations have been many of the traditions of the Orthodox church have origins in the NT scriptures; however, based on my previous comments there are some which have no basis at all. You got it wrong way. It is New Testament scriptures that have origins in the early Orthodox Church. Some things were written down by the church leaders and canonized by the church councils later, some were preserved in other forms. Remember - Church existed years before NT was written, and much earlier before NT became available to the larger public. Same with the Jews - first were the Patriarchs, Prophets, Kings etc, then were the books describing what they did and said. A Pole  posted on  2015-05-15   2:38:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #81. To: A Pole (#80) Remember - Church existed years before NT was written, and much earlier before NT became available to the larger public. Nonsense! The New Testament was written between 40 and likely complete by 70, according to A t Robinson, and the church was still in diapers at that time. Furthermore, the bible was given to mankind at the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Your church is trying to take credit for what was in main a gift from God. That's stealing Glory from Him. And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined* in a furnace of clay, purified seven times. Psalm 12:6 GarySpFC  posted on  2015-05-15   4:02:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #82. To: GarySpFC, A Pole (#81) Remember - Church existed years before NT was written, and much earlier before NT became available to the larger public. Nonsense! The New Testament was written between 40 and likely complete by 70, How is that disproving what A Pole said as nonsense. If it was 30 years between Jesus and the writing down of said letters that is A LOT OF YEARS - and that is Roman empire era years where life expectancy was not what it is today. The Church voted on what to include as the Old Testament and the New Testament is really a collection of correspondence - not an attempt to sit down and write a book. The Apostles sent a few letters out that were saved by the church. Saying the New Testament is the basis of the church is like putting the cart before the horse. Pericles  posted on  2015-05-15   4:07:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #83. To: A Pole, redleghunter (#80) (Edited) My observations have been many of the traditions of the Orthodox church have origins in the NT scriptures; however, based on my previous comments there are some which have no basis at all. You got it wrong way. It is New Testament scriptures that have origins in the early Orthodox Church. Some things were written down by the church leaders and canonized by the church councils later, some were preserved in other forms. Remember - Church existed years before NT was written, and much earlier before NT became available to the larger public. Same with the Jews - first were the Patriarchs, Prophets, Kings etc, then were the books describing what they did and said. The New Testament is the creation of the Greek churches. Period. The NT are a collection of letters written by Greek speaking Christians to other Greek speaking Christians who were already Christians for years. It is as simple as that. The New Testament is one of the great works of Greek literature. What you read in English is a pale translation. You think The Revelation of John is awesome in English? Try reading Revelation in its native Greek. Scary good. Take for example Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega,"14 says the Lord God, "the one who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." The Almighty sounds so limiting in English - like the language does not have the word to describe the Greek. Almighty? Like he has big muscles? In Greek the word used is Pantocrator - more literal translation is "Ruler of All" or, less literally, "Sustainer of the World". In this understanding, Pantokrator is a compound word formed from the Greek for "all" and the verb meaning "To accomplish something" or "to sustain something". This translation speaks more to God's actual power; i.e., God does everything (as opposed to God can do everything). The Pantokrator, largely an Eastern Orthodox or Eastern Catholic theological conception is less common by that name in Western (Roman) Catholicism and largely unknown to most Protestants. Pericles  posted on  2015-05-15   4:15:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #84. To: Pericles (#82) “You have to understand that the canon was not the result of a series of contests involving church politics. The canon is rather the separation that came about because of the intuitive insight of Christian believers. They could hear the Good Shepherd in the Gospel of John; they could hear it only muffled and distorted way in the Gospel of Thomas mixed in with a lot of other things. “When the pronouncement was made about the canon, it merely ratified what the general sensitivity of the church had already determined. You see, the canon is a list of authoritative books more than it is an authoritative list of books. These documents didn’t derive their authority from being selected; each one was authoritative before anyone gathered them together. The early church merely listened and sensed that these were authoritative accounts. “For somebody now to say that the canon emerged only after councils and synods made these pronouncements would be like saying, ‘Let’s get several academies of musicians to make a pronouncement that the music of Bach and Beethoven is wonderful.’ I would say, ‘Thank you for nothing! We knew it because of sensitivity to what is good music and what is not. The same with the canon.” Dr. Bruce M. Metzger, Ph.D. And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined* in a furnace of clay, purified seven times. Psalm 12:6 GarySpFC  posted on  2015-05-15   4:26:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #85. To: GarySpFC (#84) You have to understand that the canon was not the result of a series of contests involving church politics. The Greeks know this. It was their Greek church councils. What delegations did the Northern European Protestants send? None. So to have your ilk tell the churches that had a direct contact to Jesus via the Apostles that you somehow have a better understanding of the faith because some constipated German monk was angry at some heretic pope is laughable to eastern Christians. Pericles  posted on  2015-05-15   4:32:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #86. To: Pericles (#83) The New Testament is one of the great works of Greek literature. What you read in English is a pale translation. You think The Revelation of John is awesome in English? Try reading Revelation in its native Greek. Scary good. No kidding? I likely have over 200 Greek manuscripts, 30 Greek lexicons, and over 8 years in a seminary as a student and teacher. So, you're going to. Instruct me? And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined* in a furnace of clay, purified seven times. Psalm 12:6 GarySpFC  posted on  2015-05-15   4:37:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #87. To: GarySpFC (#86) The New Testament is one of the great works of Greek literature. What you read in English is a pale translation. You think The Revelation of John is awesome in English? Try reading Revelation in its native Greek. Scary good. No kidding? I likely have over 200 Greek manuscripts, 30 Greek lexicons, and over 8 years in a seminary as a student and teacher. So, you're going to. Instruct me? Yes, because you seem to want to deny the Greek church wrote the New Testament. The Greek Church dated from Pentecost. The New Testament is a collection of personal letters. They were preserved because they had first hand knowledge of the words of Jesus and his life on earth. The NT is not the basis of the Church - it is a byproduct. Pericles  posted on  2015-05-15   4:41:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #88. To: Pericles (#85) Your councils do not speak for God. And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined* in a furnace of clay, purified seven times. Psalm 12:6 GarySpFC  posted on  2015-05-15   4:41:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #89. To: GarySpFC (#88) Your councils do not speak for God. You deny the Holy Spirit guided the Ecumenical Councils? Then don't call yourself a Christian. Find another word. Pericles  posted on  2015-05-15   4:45:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #90. To: GarySpFC (#81) The New Testament was written between 40 and likely complete by 70, according to A t Robinson, and the church was still in diapers at that time. Perhaps Mr "A t Robinson" is in diapers? A Pole  posted on  2015-05-15   4:45:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #91. To: Pericles (#87) The Greek Church dated from Pentecoat. Correction, the Jewish Church was founded at Pentecost. And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined* in a furnace of clay, purified seven times. Psalm 12:6 GarySpFC  posted on  2015-05-15   4:48:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #92. To: GarySpFC (#91) The Greek Church dated from Pentecoat. Correction, the Jewish Church was founded at Pentecost. All Apostolic Churches - including the Greek - were founded at Pentecost. Pericles  posted on  2015-05-15   5:01:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #93. To: Pericles, A Pole (#92) The promise is for you and your children* and for all who are far off*—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” That promise was to all who are far off to whom the Lord our God calls, Acts 2:39. You're hijacking God's Word if you say it only applies to the Orthodox Church. And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined* in a furnace of clay, purified seven times. Psalm 12:6 GarySpFC  posted on  2015-05-15   9:33:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #94. To: GarySpFC, A Pole (#93) You're hijacking God's Word if you say it only applies to the Orthodox Church. I did not state that. I am showing you that the Christian church PREDATES the New Testament and that the New Testament is a byproduct of the Church. That is all. Pericles  posted on  2015-05-15   9:45:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #95. To: A Pole (#80) Remember - Church existed years before NT was written, and much earlier before NT became available to the larger public. And the Holy Spirit is eternal with no beginning or end. Man cannot take credit for the Words of God. Words which clearly reveal God's Divine attributes. Same with the Jews - first were the Patriarchs, Prophets, Kings etc, then were the books describing what they did and said. Of course and your point is valid. However, Who told the Israelite prophets to write things down? Yes YHWH. YHWH was directly revealing to the Israelites and patriarchs His Words demonstrated by His Power. Same in the NT. The apostles who penned the NT also spoke the words and demonstrated what they were speaking was truth through miracles,and daily striving to walk as Christ walked. I guess the issue at hand is this...Is the Written Word of God able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus? Or are the Scriptures not entirely sufficient to lead us to the message of salvation? "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-15   9:46:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #96. To: Pericles, GarySpFc, Don, liberator (#83) The New Testament is the creation of the Greek churches. Period. That is incorrect unless your point is the Holy Spirit is subject to the church. The reverse is what is divinely attested. The Holy Spirit inspired the Written Words of God both OT and NT. The NT are a collection of letters written by Greek speaking Christians to other Greek speaking Christians who were already Christians for years. It is as simple as that. It is quite simple. They wrote down what was inspired so that generations to come could examine what the NT church was really like. The New Testament is one of the great works of Greek literature. The New Testament and Old Testament is the Work of God, not man. The Almighty sounds so limiting in English Not to me. As God reveals Himself to believers through His Word but also through His actions in our lives. The Pantokrator, largely an Eastern Orthodox or Eastern Catholic theological conception is less common by that name in Western (Roman) Catholicism and largely unknown to most Protestants. I think we know about it:) Evangelicals read the Holy Scriptures...but we also study them too. Strong's G3841 - pantokrator "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-15   10:15:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #97. To: redleghunter (#96) The NT are a collection of letters written by Greek speaking Christians to other Greek speaking Christians who were already Christians for years. It is as simple as that. It is quite simple. They wrote down what was inspired so that generations to come could examine what the NT church was really like. So if they wrote down what was inspired then Sola Scriptura is false doctrine since the church existed Nill Scriptura. Pericles  posted on  2015-05-15   10:25:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #98. To: Pericles, GarySpFc (#97) So if they wrote down what was inspired then Sola Scriptura is false doctrine since the church existed Nill Scriptura. Not so. The apostles always referenced the TaNaKh as Jesus opened their minds to the Scriptures: Luke 24: “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.” "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-15   11:56:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #99. To: redleghunter (#98) The apostles always referenced the TaNaKh as Jesus opened their minds to the Scriptures: The Old Testament is NOT the New Testament. Where in the Old Testament does it tell Peter to break from eating Kosher? Peter recounts that Jesus eliminated this requirement in a dream in a letter he sent after the fact. The decision to eliminate circumcision in gentiles is also not in the Old Testament and was a decision arrived at by the Church and then at a later date that episode was recorded in a letter. Pericles  posted on  2015-05-15   12:21:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #100. To: Pericles (#99) The Old Testament is NOT the New Testament. Where in the Old Testament does it tell Peter to break from eating Kosher? Peter recounts that Jesus eliminated this requirement in a dream in a letter he sent after the fact. The decision to eliminate circumcision in gentiles is also not in the Old Testament and was a decision arrived at by the Church and then at a later date that episode was recorded in a letter. Yet all of the above happened in real time and space. All of which was by God's will and purpose. The patriarchs in the OT are not responsible for the Creation as the apostles nor church can take credit for writing the NT. These were sovereign acts and revelations of God. "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-15   15:55:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #101. To: redleghunter (#100) Yet all of the above happened in real time and space. All of which was by God's will and purpose. Hence no need for Sola Scriptura as a basis of faith. It is a byproduct of the faith. Pericles  posted on  2015-05-15   16:20:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #102. To: Pericles, TooConservative (#101) Hence no need for Sola Scriptura as a basis of faith. It is a byproduct of the faith. Define sola scriptura. I have not used the term nor ever remember using it in this forum in the past. I believe I have used the Biblical term sufficiency of scriptures. So please define what you believe sola scriptura means. Maybe we can compare that with what it actually means and what we are discussing. On faith? ST Paul said: "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13) redleghunter  posted on  2015-05-15   16:29:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #103. To: Pericles (#94) I did not state that. I am showing you that the Christian church PREDATES the New Testament and that the New Testament is a byproduct of the Church. That is all. The Christian Church includes far more than the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. That is proved in the promise. And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined* in a furnace of clay, purified seven times. Psalm 12:6 GarySpFC  posted on  2015-05-15   23:13:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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