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U.S. Constitution
See other U.S. Constitution Articles

Title: The Madisonian Dilemma
Source: Cambridge University Press
URL Source: [None]
Published: May 6, 2015
Author: Dennis Goldford
Post Date: 2015-05-06 20:00:58 by tpaine
Keywords: None
Views: 3884
Comments: 24

The Madisonian Dilemma

Cambridge University Press ^ |

Dennis Goldford

Jefferson commented that the purpose of a constitution is to bind down those whom we are obliged to trust with power, doing so by the chains of the Constitution.

While the binding capacity of the Constitution comes into play in the area of structural principles such as federalism and the separation of powers, perhaps the prime example of that capacity is its role in the problematic relation between majority rule and individual rights. As fundamental law, the Constitution, supposedly above politics, is always drawn into political controversies between majority rule and individual rights precisely because of its binding function. Through this function the Constitution establishes the distinction, central to American political culture, between the sphere of matters subject to decision by majority rule, regardless of individual preferences to the contrary, and the sphere of matters subject to individual choice, regardless of majority preferences to the contrary.

The Constitution binds contemporary majorities to respect this distinction and thereby not to act in certain ways, however democratically decided, vis-à-vis individuals.

Robert Bork aptly distinguishes between these spheres in terms of what he has famously called the Madisonian dilemma:

The United States was founded as a Madisonian system, which means that it contains two opposing principles that must be continually reconciled.

The first principle is self-government, which means that in wide areas of life majorities are entitled to rule, if they wish, simply because they are majorities.

The second is that there are nonetheless some things majorities must not do to minorities, some areas of life in which the individual must be free of majority rule.

The dilemma is that neither majorities nor minorities can be trusted to define the proper spheres of democratic authority and individual liberty....

The political theory of American constitutionalism rests equally on two fundamental premises, the premises of constraint and consent.

The first premise is that the purpose of a constitution, especially a written one, is to bind future generations to the vision of its founders, that is, to constrain the American people, - individuals and institutions, citizens and government officials alike, - to follow the principles of the Constitution rather than anything else.

The second premise is that the binding of future generations to the vision of the founders is a democratically grounded and legitimated act of We the People, that is, that in some sense We the People have consented to be governed - bound - by the principles set forth in the Constitution.


Poster Comment:

"-- there are nonetheless some things majorities must not do to minorities, some areas of life in which the individual must be free of majority rule. --"

I see these areas as enumerated in the Bill of Rights and the 14th Amendment. -- Many here do not. Feel free to tell me why not.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 14.

#1. To: tpaine, All (#0)

I see these areas as enumerated in the Bill of Rights and the 14th Amendment. -- Many here do not. Feel free to tell me why not.

Very simple, the Consitution is subject to much interpretaion. Futher, the Consitution has contuinually been violated since the days of Washington.

Now please tell me how a 5-4 decision by SCOTUS resolves for all time the question ruled upon? How did Presidents, Congress and/or SCOTUS get away with bending, if not breaking, the Consitution virtually from its beginnings? What is to be done about it when the majority of We The People and Congress accepts the transgressions and SCOTUS refuses to enter the fray? Do we not reap what we sow?

SOSO  posted on  2015-05-06   22:29:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: SOSO (#1)

I see these areas, "areas of life in which the individual must be free of majority rule", --- as those enumerated in the Bill of Rights and the 14th Amendment. -

--- Many here do not. Feel free to tell me why not.

Very simple, the Consitution is subject to much interpretaion.

"Interpret" as much as you like, but we must draw the line at prohibitions on weapons, 'sinful' behaviors and substances, --- passed by would be majority rulers.

Futher, the Consitution has contuinually been violated since the days of Washington.

And usually, those violations are corrected, over time. -- As per the repeal of booze prohibition.

Now please tell me how a 5-4 decision by SCOTUS resolves for all time the question ruled upon?

Such 'decisions' don't resolve anything, because they are opinions, subject to change. - Example: Dred Scott.

How did Presidents, Congress and/or SCOTUS get away with bending, if not breaking, the Consitution virtually from its beginnings?
You voiced this opinion before, and I don't think they did. Our constitution is not broken.
What is to be done about it when the majority of We The People and Congress accepts the transgressions and SCOTUS refuses to enter the fray? Do we not reap what we sow?
What transgressions are you talking about ?

tpaine  posted on  2015-05-07   20:09:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: tpaine (#3)

What is to be done about it when the majority of We The People and Congress accepts the transgressions and SCOTUS refuses to enter the fray? Do we not reap what we sow?

What transgressions are you talking about ?

Good Lord, are you serious? If so this dialogue is over.

SOSO  posted on  2015-05-07   20:54:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: SOSO (#5)

What is to be done about it when the majority of We The People and Congress accepts the transgressions and SCOTUS refuses to enter the fray? Do we not reap what we sow?

What transgressions are you talking about ?

Good Lord, are you serious? If so this dialogue is over.

Good Lord are you this dense? - I'm not denying that there are transgressions, -- What SPECIFIC transgressions are you talking about?

tpaine  posted on  2015-05-07   21:07:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: tpaine (#6)

What SPECIFIC transgressions are you talking about?

What difference does it make? Pick anyone you like. Just don't pick Prohibition because that was totally Consitutional via an Amendment (the 18th) to the Consitution - just as was its repeal by an Amendment (the 21st).

Or are you going to arguing that it wasn't?

"In the years during which 18th Amendment was in effect, there were no significant constitutional challenges to the prohibition of alcohol itself. But there were some challenges to the procedure used to ratify the amendment.

For example, in Hawke v. Smith (1920), those arguing in favor of prohibition asserted that an Ohio referendum was invalid. In Ohio, the state legislature had approved the 18th Amendment. But a subsequent direct referendum of the voters rejected it.

In the Ohio constitution, the people were given the power to review their legislature’s passage of any amendment to the national Constitutional. The prohibitionists argued – and the Supreme Court agreed – that the process by which amendments are to be ratified only involves state legislatures, not referendums. The Constitution itself made no mention of a review by the people. Thus, Ohio’s referendum was immaterial. The legislature had ratified the amendment and that was all that mattered."

In any event, Prohibition was the law of the land for quite a while, ergo de facto consitutional, until it was repealed.

SOSO  posted on  2015-05-07   21:23:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: SOSO, y'all (#7) (Edited)

What is to be done about it when the majority of We The People and Congress accepts the transgressions and SCOTUS refuses to enter the fray?

What SPECIFIC transgressions are you talking about?

What difference does it make? Pick anyone you like. Just don't pick Prohibition because that was totally Consitutional via an Amendment (the 18th) to the Consitution ---

Strange you should mention booze prohibition, because the majority of We The People and Congress accepted the unconstitutional 'transgression' of prohibiting booze and then SCOTUS declined to enter the fray by refusing to consider this constitutional question: ---

Where in the constitution is ANY level of govt given the power to prohibit 'sinful'/dangerous substances or devices like guns? -- And if an amendment is passed that infringes on our fundamental rights to possess such 'dangerous' items, -- how could it be valid?

And we the people did the obvious, we ignored an unconstitutional amendment, resulting in its repeal...

tpaine  posted on  2015-05-07   22:27:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: tpaine (#8)

Strange you should mention booze prohibition, because the majority of We The People and Congress accepted the unconstitutional 'transgression' of prohibiting booze and then SCOTUS declined to enter the fray by refusing to consider this constitutional question: ---

You know that you are wrong about this, don't you? SCOTUS did enter the fray (and I gave you a link to the case).

"Where in the constitution is ANY level of govt given the power to prohibit 'sinful'/dangerous substances or devices like guns? -- And if an amendment is passed that infringes on our fundamental rights to possess such 'dangerous' items, -- how could it be valid?"

So it is your contention that the Consitution allows you to maintain your own nuclear arsenal on your private property? Or to experiment with biological and/or chemical weapons in your basement? If you don't believe that these are your consitutional rights then you show me where in the Consitution prohibits you from engaging in those activities.

OTOH, if you do believe that you have the consitutional right to maintain your own personal nuclear arsenal and/or biological and chemcal warfare labs on your premises then this dialogue is over.

But to begin to answer your questions lets start with the first words of the Consitution:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

What do you think these words mean? Who gets to determine what promotes or undermines the "general Welfare"?

BTW, the 18th Amendment did not prohibit the consumption of intoxicating liquors.

SOSO  posted on  2015-05-07   22:46:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: SOSO (#9)

Strange you should mention booze prohibition, because the majority of We The People and Congress accepted the unconstitutional 'transgression' of prohibiting booze and then SCOTUS declined to enter the fray by refusing to consider this constitutional question: ---

You know that you are wrong about this, don't you?

No.

SCOTUS did enter the fray (and I gave you a link to the case).

I know, -- the SCOTUS also heard several days of arguments on a constitutional challenge to the amendment, and declined to accept the case...

Where in the constitution is ANY level of govt given the power to prohibit 'sinful'/dangerous substances or devices like guns? -- And if an amendment is passed that infringes on our fundamental rights to possess such 'dangerous' items, -- how could it be valid?

So it is your contention that the Consitution allows you to maintain your own nuclear arsenal on your private property? Or to experiment with biological and/or chemical weapons in your basement? If you don't believe that these are your consitutional rights then you show me where in the Consitution prohibits you from engaging in those activities. --- OTOH, if you do believe that you have the consitutional right to maintain your own personal nuclear arsenal and/or biological and chemcal warfare labs on your premises then this dialogue is over.

Nice straw man. You're free to quit this dialogue anytime of course, but you must admit that hundreds of company's experiment with biological, chemical, and nuclear materials every day in the USA.

But to begin to answer your questions lets start with the first words of the Consitution: --- We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. ---- What do you think these words mean? Who gets to determine what promotes or undermines the "general Welfare"?

We the people get to determine what those words mean, of course. And you think that congress or the courts do?

tpaine  posted on  2015-05-07   23:16:03 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: tpaine (#10)

Nice straw man. You're free to quit this dialogue anytime of course, but you must admit that hundreds of company's experiment with biological, chemical, and nuclear materials every day in the USA.

No straw man but a legitimate questions. I have had this discussion with COnsitutional lawyers who claim that it is everyone's consitutional right to maintain their personal nuclear arsenal and any and all biological and chemical weapons on their property. Nice attempt at dodging my question though. How about responding to it, if you have the courage and integrity?

BTW, you comment about companies experimenting with biological, chemical, and nuclear materials every day in the USA is about as bogus as your weasel away form answering the question. These companies do so with to consent and oversight of the government, otherwise they don't do it at all without being subject to the full weight of government action against them.

I doubt that you have the cojones to answer a very straight forward question.

"We the people get to determine what those words mean, of course."

Nice dancing, again. What are you doing now, the Weasel Hustle? Didn't you claim the we the people means the people of the individual states or the states themself? So exactly how do we the people determine what promotes or undermines the general Welfare? HINT: And you think that congress or the courts do not?

SOSO  posted on  2015-05-07   23:52:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: SOSO (#11)

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." ---- What do you think these words mean? Who gets to determine what promotes or undermines the "general Welfare"?

We the people get to determine what those words mean, of course. And you think that congress or the courts do?

Didn't you claim the we the people means the people of the individual states or the states themself? So exactly how do we the people determine what promotes or undermines the general Welfare?

The prime example is how we dealt with booze prohibition. We ignored it, as it did NOT promote the general welfare, and it was repealed.

HINT: And you think that congress or the courts do not?

Obviously, you do. Fess up, you're a big brother fellow traveler.

tpaine  posted on  2015-05-08   9:03:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: tpaine (#13)

HINT: And you think that congress or the courts do not? Obviously, you do. Fess up, you're a big brother fellow traveler.

Whether you like it or not you clearly do not understand the concept of representative government, the basic tenet and structure of the U.S. and the States. We The People first act through the ballot box. We The People do not have a direct say in all, and not in most, of the decisions made by the representative elected officials. The alternative to this is anarchy and revolution. Which are you, an anarchist or revolutionary?

If reresentative government is Big Brother then blame the FF becuase that is what they deliberately with forethought has given us. I am about as Big Brother as you are an Anarchist (oops, I better be careful here, you just may be an Anarchist).

SOSO  posted on  2015-05-08   10:33:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 14.

#15. To: SOSO (#14)

We the people get to determine what those words mean, of course. And you think that congress or the courts do?

Didn't you claim the we the people means the people of the individual states or the states themself? So exactly how do we the people determine what promotes or undermines the general Welfare?

The prime example is how we dealt with booze prohibition. We ignored it, as it did NOT promote the general welfare, and it was repealed.

Whether you like it or not you clearly do not understand the concept of representative government, the basic tenet and structure of the U.S. and the States.

That's your opinion, and its clearly wrong.

We The People first act through the ballot box. We The People do not have a direct say in all, and not in most, of the decisions made by the representative elected officials.

And when our elected officials pass unconstitutional laws or amendments, with Court backing, -- We the People have the duty to reject and ignore such infringements..

tpaine  posted on  2015-05-08 12:53:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 14.

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