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Source: Chuck Baldwin / Facebook URL Source: https://www.facebook.com/permalink. ... 69863063938&id=226997970644468 Published: Apr 5, 2015 Author: Chuck Baldwin Post Date: 2015-04-15 02:15:42 by Hondo68 Keywords: None Views: 52039 Comments: 178 I'm using this Facebook post to make a couple of personal confessions. In one way or another, we are all victims of our past. I was schooled in certain persuasions that have taken 3/4 of a lifetime to overcome. But when I made a conscious decision to pursue and follow truth--no matter where it led me--many years ago, my mind and heart have been liberated with the illumination of truth time and time again. I personally believe that only people who, in their hearts, are sincerely open to truth will ever find it. I will not make these issues a test of fellowship with those who disagree with me (although, I'm sure many of them will). I, myself, believed differently for all of my adult life. And these conclusions have not been made overnight. It has taken years of study and research to bring me to the conclusions I am sharing with you in this post. Obviously, this forum will not allow me to go into detail about the conclusions I'm going to share. That must be reserved for another day and another forum. But, for the sake of the folks--especially those Christian folks--who follow my work, I believe I need to be honest and straightforward regarding these conclusions. So, here we go: 1. I recant the dogmatism of a belief in a pre-millennial rapture. That doesn't mean that I DON'T believe in a Rapture. It just means that I am no longer dogmatic about it; and neither do I think that it matters to a tinker's dam regarding my personal duty to God. The Lord is going to fulfill His divine will regarding prophetic events in His time. Quite frankly, I am convinced that, for the most part, it is not for us to know the things God has reserved unto Himself. (Acts 1:6, 7) For too long, many of our pre-millennial friends have been using a belief in the Rapture as an excuse to sit back on their blessed assurance and do nothing. Even if the doctrine is true, the way it is being used as an excuse to not engage the liberty fight is downright shameful. 2. I recant the position that the modern state of Israel is the same as the prophetic Israel of the Bible. The nation of Israel rejected their Messiah and God destroyed their nation, their capital city, and their temple in 70 AD. Spiritually, the children of Israel have been in a state of blindness ever since. With the advent of the New Testament Church, we are NOT Jews or Gentiles, Greeks or Barbarians, etc.: we are all ONE IN CHRIST. God's people today are the blood-washed saints of all races, ethnicities, nationalities, etc. Again, we are ONE IN CHRIST. Accordingly, I am convinced that the modern state of Israel is NOT the prophetic fulfillment of the future redeemed nation of Israel. NOT IN ANY SHAPE, MANNER, OR FORM. I further conclude that the misapplication of applying prophetic scriptures to the modern state of Israel is producing nothing but perpetual war, the demise of liberty at home, the rise of a Police State, and the facilitation of a devilish New World Order. So, there you have it. I RECANT. Poster Comment: I wonder if he's getting ready to run for president again? I voted for him when Ron Paul endorsed him in '08, and I just might again in '16. Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest #1. To: hondo68 (#0) Wow A Pole  posted on  2015-04-15   5:46:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #2. To: hondo68 (#0) Interesting, I need to ponder this. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-04-15   7:11:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #3. To: hondo68 (#0) If he had to recant, he is recanting of the wrong things. Don  posted on  2015-04-15   7:43:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #4. To: BobCeleste (#2) I recommend for reading, a book called, In The Footsteps of The Messiah by Dr. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum. Don  posted on  2015-04-15   7:51:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #5. To: Don (#4) I recommend for reading, a book called, In The Footsteps of The Messiah by Dr. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum. Thanks for the suggestion Don, but I will stick to the Bible when searching for a Biblical answer to a theological question. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-04-15   8:08:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #6. To: hondo68 (#0) Chuck, You're right about the modern state of Israel. As far as the "Rapture" goes, it doesn't exist at all, but I'm glad that at least you no longer give it importance. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-04-15   8:10:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #7. To: hondo68 (#0) It is rather notable for anyone to admit they recanted anything in modern life. I think he might have discussed his reasons in a little more depth if he wanted to persuade more readers to his position. This is more a mere statement than an argument. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-04-15   8:48:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #8. To: TooConservative (#7) It is rather notable for anyone to admit they recanted anything in modern life.    “Herman Cain’s position on TARP: On October 20, 2008, Herman Cain wrote, in an article in North Star Writers Group’s Herman Cain column #133, that “Wake up people! Owning a part of the major banks in America is not a bad thing. We could make a profit while solving a problem.”” http://hermancaintarp.com/about-herman-cain/herman-cain-supports-tarp/ Beautiful plumage, the Herman Blue.     VxH  posted on  2015-04-15   9:03:55 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #9. To: BobCeleste (#5) I read other books; however, I have and will continue judging spiritual matters by how viewpoints stack up against the Holy Bible. There are many good writers of things religious, and they can quote chapter and verse with the best. Don  posted on  2015-04-15   9:15:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #10. To: VxH, *Neo-Lib Chickenhawk Wars* (#8) Wake up people! You recant your support for Godfathers Pizza? The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party "We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul Hondo68  posted on  2015-04-15   9:19:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #11. To: Don (#3) Recant too! Repent! A Pole  posted on  2015-04-15   9:48:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #12. To: Don (#4) In The Footsteps of The Messiah by Dr. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum. The False Messiah. A Pole  posted on  2015-04-15   9:49:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #13. To: VxH (#8) "Owning a part of the major banks in America is not a bad thing. We could make a profit while solving a problem.” Turns out he was right. "TARP revenue has totaled $441.7 billion on $426.4 billion invested." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program) misterwhite  posted on  2015-04-15   9:56:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #14. To: Vicomte13, BobCeleste, Don, hondo68, liberator (#6) As far as the "Rapture" goes, it doesn't exist at all Sure it does. Literally in the Latin. More clearly in the Greek "caught up." Now when it happens, I agree it is debatable as it is not clear in Scriptures. That is what he means by not being 'dogmatic.' Some theologians say 'it will happen before, during or after' some events. It is not clear and the scripture reference from Acts 1 from Baldwin is sage advice. I took that advice from Jesus Christ own words a few years ago. Personally? All I need is the Upper Room discourse. Jesus told His followers if they love Him He will come for them. On Israel? Who knows. Baldwin should have stopped with saying "I don't know" like he did for rapture. Because none of us do know. What do we know God will do with a multitude of 'physical' Jews/Israelites gathered in the same geographic location? We don't know. Perhaps as St Augustine believed that in the end a remnant of Jews would convert to Christ for the Glory of God. Should we support the only democracy in the ME from a secular standpoint? Seems reasonable. Should we care for the well being of Jewish people who still need their Messiah. Yes we should. Should we side with them when they disobey the laws of God...No. From the perspective of Baldwin I agree...One's Christian faith should not influence politically and militarily a certain secular state. If Christians truly loved the people of Messiah and His apostles, they would provide Christian based support. If the US government values a democratic partner in the ME then they should pursue the government of Israel as an ally. I do await Baldwin's expanded comments on Israel. Somehow he links wars we fight with Israel's existence. Is he suggesting Israel not govern themselves and surrender to Arab Muslim nations? I don't think so, but he sees some connection with all the wars America fights with Israel 'just being there.' That is a bit concerning. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-15   10:50:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #15. To: redleghunter (#14) (Edited) redleg - Which Scripture was written in Latin? And where did God say to people, in Greek, that they would be "Caught Up", and thereby removed from the Earth and not present as the world ends? Sure, many DIE, and their spirits rise out of their bodies and are caught up by God. That happens now. It'll happen rather massively as the disasters at world end kills lots and lots of people all at once. But where does God ever say that Christians will be removed from the earth to avoid the end? God never says that. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-04-15   11:07:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #16. To: A Pole, Don (#12) The False Messiah. Which false Messiah? And what does Don have to repent of to you? "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-15   11:07:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #17. To: redleghunter (#14) (Edited) Because none of us do know. Why don't we know? In Deuteronomy 28, God spelled out the promised doom of Israel if the Israelites did not follow him and obey his teachings. In the last week of his life, in the parable of the Vineyard, Jesus Christ pronounced the final doom on Israel, speaking specifically of how the Israelites had, over the years, ignored the laws, killed the prophets and now would kill the Son. And that as a result, God would cast them out and give over the vineyard to others. And Jesus pronounced the utter doom of the Temple. Absolutely central to the Laws of Moses was the constant rites, which could ONLY be performed by priests in the line of Aaron, and none others. The great sin of the Northern Kingdom, just about the only thing that the prophets of its doom harped on, was that they performed their own rites with their own priests. God was explicit: the ONLY LEGITIMATE WAY to worship him, in Israel, was on the altar, at Jerusalem, at the hands of priests descended by the body from Aaron, performing the EXACT rites required, EVERY DAY, and that if Israel did not follow ALL OF THE LAW, that God would eventually utterly destroy it. God told the Israelites that before they even entered Canaan. MOSES told them all of it, in Deuteronomy, and spoke the words of sentence to doom at Deueteronomny 28, the whole chapter. Jesus, as Judge, pronounced the final doom of Israel - the end of the Mosaic covenant. For the Covenant was FOR LAND, and Jesus specifically referred to the LAND, the vineyard itself, being taken from the tenants and handed to others, and the tenants being destroyed. Jesus pronounced the final doom of the Temple also. And when that came, in 69 AD, the Aaronic priesthood was extinguished. God made it IMPOSSIBLE to rebuild the Temple and restart. The Aaronic priesthood is gone. And other priests will not do. The Covenant with Moses was "to a distant time", and CONDITIONAL upon the Hebrews obeying. They did not. God sent prophet after prophet, just as Jesus described in the final judgment. Finally, God sent the son. The Priesthood ITSELF rejected and killed the Son. And the Son, before he died, in the parable of the Vineyard and in killing the fig tree and in pronouncing the destruction of the Temple, pronounced the end of the Mosaic covenant BY THE EXECUTION OF THE PENALTY CLAUSES. We DO KNOW that Israel is DONE FOREVER. Jesus SAID so. Moses warned it. Jesus said it. And God sent the Romans to DO IT. And the only covenant left, the ONLY WAY to God is through Jesus. The Mosaic covenant CANNOT BE FULFILLED: the priests are gone, and new ones cannot be made. The Urim and Thummim are gone. To be able to know. And the ONLY GATE is Jesus. The ONLY way. The Bible tells us that Israel is done and will never be rebuilt. Moses and Jesus, God's direct words. Isaiah and Jeremiah foretold the destruction of Judah and the return from Babylon. Daniel foretold it. That all happened. God told the Jews of the ultimate end of Israel, for disobedience, through Moses, and Jesus pronounced the sentence, and removed the validity of THAT covenant to come to God, by being the only gateway. Judaism by its tenets rejects the divinity of the only way: Jesus. It's done. Biblically. Stick a fork in it. It is an error to read the prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah and Daniel as foretelling something that would happen with lineal Israel AFTER Christ killed the fig tree and trampled out the vineyard. The prophesies that count NOW are only those that Jesus gave to the Apostles in the Gospels, and to John in the Apocalypse. And they don't contain a rebuilding of Jewish Israel, but a NEW Jerusalem, a divine one, from God, one so vast in size that the physical Jerusalem is just a point source beneath it. The moment that Jesus died, the veil separating the Holy of Holies from the rest of the inner temple ripped in two top to bottom. God has LEFT the building. Forever. Soon after, it will be destroyed, the line of the priests will be obliterated, and the covenantal title to the vineyard - already revoked by Jesus - will be visibly extinguished by eviction. We know. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-04-15   11:22:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #18. To: redleghunter (#16) Which false Messiah? Antichrist. And what does Don have to repent of to you? No to me. Repent/rethink/prepare as St John the Baptist called, so people would be ready to recognise the true Christ. Same in our post-Christian times, repent so you will not accept the Antichrist as Chirst. A Pole  posted on  2015-04-15   11:44:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #19. To: redleghunter (#14)  Jesus told His followers if they love Him He will come for them Did they get "ruptured"? A Pole  posted on  2015-04-15   11:46:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #20. To: Vicomte13, BobCeleste, Don, liberator (#15) redleg - Which Scripture was written in Latin? Here: In English: 1 Thessalonians 4: 13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. In Latin Vulgate:(1 Thes. 4:17) deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus And where did God say to people, in Greek, that they would be "Caught Up", and thereby removed from the Earth and not present as the world ends? In the Greek harpazo, 'caught up.' and thereby removed from the Earth and not present as the world ends? Where did I make such an assertion? I invoked Acts chapter 1. There are too few Bible passages for someone to confidently, and dogmatically, say "rapture happens 'here'." The clear wording in 1 Thes. 4 shows us there will be such an event of 'caught up' 'rapture' but does not clearly say when. Some say before, during or after the tribulation of days (Matthew 24) and some say this is allegory. No one can be dogmatic on the matter. Some views are more consistent than others. Will it happen. Yes. When? If someone thinks they are 100% sure then Acts 1 in the Words of Christ tells us different. John in Revelation is giving an unveiling of certain events showing there will be a series of events and judgments before the Second Advent of Jesus Christ. There are no clear verses showing timing of a 'caught up' event. So why be dogmatic on it. Our commands as disciples of Jesus Christ are to preach the Gospel, await His Coming at any time and be ready and found worthy, and to love our brother as Christ Loves us. That is quite a mission in itself. Sure, many DIE, and their spirits rise out of their bodies and are caught up by God. That happens now. It'll happen rather massively as the disasters at world end kills lots and lots of people all at once. The verses provided in 1 Thes. 4 shows the dead or 'sleeping' in Christ 'caught up with those who are alive. Not just spirits rising. The unofficial Catholic teaching on 1 Thes. 4 is this describes the resurrection. Some views from the Messianics are these verses apply to the First Resurrection of Revelation chapter 20 (before the GWT judgement at the end of the chapter). Which they will point directly to the Words of Yeshua here: John 11 King James Version (KJV) 25 Jesus said unto her,I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Also showing this as a 'bodily' event of shedding the corruptible flesh for the incorruptible: 1 Corinthians 15 King James Version (KJV) 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. But where does God ever say that Christians will be removed from the earth to avoid the end? God never says that. Never is quite a strong term. You don't know for sure do you? The context and use of "wrath to come" and "keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world" are the most hotly debated eschatological terms. I agree with Baldwin. We can have our views on the things to come, but for the areas that are not clearly laid out, we should not be dogmatic. Most Christians (except full preterists) know that the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, Resurrection and final Judgement are yet future. That is because of the overwhelming Scriptural evidence. We can be, and are dogmatic on what is clear and certain. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-15   12:14:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #21. To: Vicomte13, BobCeleste, Don, liberator (#17) In Deuteronomy 28, God spelled out the promised doom of Israel if the Israelites did not follow him and obey his teachings. For every prophecy of doom on Israel and Judah there is a following prophecy of restoration to them as a people, a remnant, and extended to the Gentiles who believe. Paul lays this out nicely in Romans 11. I will not boast the branches were cut off so I could be grafted in. Because as Paul puts it "And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?" Who are you or me or anyone to contend with Almighty and say He is not able to graft in Israelites again through their Messiah Yeshua? I will agree with Baldwin in general. Is the secular government in Israel this 'restoration' of the branch Paul is speaking of? I don't think so. Is it possible that the physical sons of Isaac have returned and continue to return to their promised land is a 'mustard seed' for a remnant of Israelites to come bend the knee and embrace their Messiah Yeshua? I think so. I also think the time of Jacob's trouble will sort out those who do bow the knee to Messiah Yeshua. I admit YHWH is a lot better planner and executor of the Divine plan than many of we pieces of pottery will admit. We just have to approach His promises humbly and in thanksgiving. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-15   12:28:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #22. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13, BobCeleste, Don, hondo68 (#14) Personally? All I need is the Upper Room discourse. Jesus told His followers if they love Him He will come for them. Frankly, isn't that all that matters? Why must some people insist on knowing EVERY step of God's plan, from the moment he lays out the hors d'oeuvres table at our wedding reception? ;-) Baldwin: "I think that it matters to a tinker's dam regarding my personal duty to God. The Lord is going to fulfill His divine will regarding prophetic events in His time. Quite frankly, I am convinced that, for the most part, it is not for us to know the things God has reserved unto Himself. (Acts 1:6, 7)" Uh-huh. On Israel? Who knows. Baldwin should have stopped with saying "I don't know" like he did for rapture. Because none of us do know. What do we know God will do with a multitude of 'physical' Jews/Israelites gathered in the same geographic location? We don't know. Perhaps as St Augustine believed that in the end a remnant of Jews would convert to Christ for the Glory of God. Yeah, I thought Baldwin addressing this would be tricky. I think you answered it simply and succinctly. WE. DON'T. KNOW. Should we support the only democracy in the ME from a secular standpoint? Seems reasonable. Should we care for the well being of Jewish people who still need their Messiah. Yes we should. Should we side with them when they disobey the laws of God...No. Hear ya. Aye. Moreover, it should be a no-brainer to support Israel as the only democracy in the ME and a sovereign nation NO less sovereign than any of its neighbors. Yes, even Israelis/Jews CAN be evil, ergo that love for the Jewish people (as with any other people) is conditional in as far as they reject evil. From the perspective of Baldwin I agree...One's Christian faith should not influence politically and militarily a certain secular state. If Christians truly loved the people of Messiah and His apostles, they would provide Christian based support. If the US government values a democratic partner in the ME then they should pursue the government of Israel as an ally. Well stated. I do await Baldwin's expanded comments on Israel. Somehow he links wars we fight with Israel's existence. Is he suggesting Israel not govern themselves and surrender to Arab Muslim nations? I don't think so, but he sees some connection with all the wars America fights with Israel 'just being there.' That is a bit concerning. That last insight and question of Baldwin's presumption that ME wars are merely a matter of alliance with Israel....doesn't hold water, does it? Of course to some, they claim Israel actually governs the USA. Baldwin may need to review the history of that part of the world, beginning in 1948, and reconsider what it must be like to be surrounded for the last 65+ years by a hostile, insane Death Cult. Liberator  posted on  2015-04-15   12:28:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #23. To: Vicomte13, redleghunter (#17) You make a number of valid points, Vic. Historically, philosophically, factually. The word of Jesus is true. Liberator  posted on  2015-04-15   12:33:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #24. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13, BobCeleste, Don, hondo68, liberator (#14) As far as the "Rapture" goes, it doesn't exist at all Sure it does. Literally in the Latin. More clearly in the Greek "caught up." Now when it happens, I agree it is debatable as it is not clear in Scriptures. Interesting discussion here dealing with the end times and rapture. On a similar note, has anyone here been watching the series "Dig" on USA Network?. “Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends. Paul Craig Roberts Deckard  posted on  2015-04-15   12:35:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #25. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13, BobCeleste, Don (#21) I will not boast the branches were cut off so I could be grafted in. Because as Paul puts it, "And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?" Who are you or me or anyone to contend with Almighty and say He is not able to graft in Israelites again through their Messiah Yeshua? Interesting. And so are the times we live in....and still to come. Liberator  posted on  2015-04-15   12:36:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #26. To: Vicomte13 (#17) It's done. Biblically. Stick a fork in it. Isaiah 11 says different. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-15   12:43:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #27. To: Deckard (#24) "Dig"? What's it about? Btw, I'll bookmark your link. The beginning sounds reasonable. The rest appears to cover quite a bit of fascinating ground. But will he maintain that there are actual UFOs with "aliens" mistaken for "angels"...and new life forms? Liberator  posted on  2015-04-15   12:44:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #28. To: A Pole (#19) You make jokes, however I pointed out the word 'caught up' is clearly in Scriptures. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-15   12:44:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #29. To: Liberator (#27) But will he maintain that there are actual UFOs with "aliens" mistaken for "angels"...and new life forms? His view (and mine as well) is that the "Great Deception" will be fallen angels posing as aliens, telling the world that they created humans and have returned to save us. The Vatican will go along with it, as will all of the other (apostate) religions. His view is that the UFO's are actual, physical vehicles, the so-called "extra-terrestrials" are demonic entities. “Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends. Paul Craig Roberts Deckard  posted on  2015-04-15   12:52:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #30. To: Liberator (#27) "Dig"? What's it about? Dig Basically, it's about an FBI agent who is based in Jerusalem and discovers a plot that dates back 2000 years while investigating a murder. The main premise is that there is a conspiracy involving various groups working as one to rebuild the Temple in order to bring about WW 3. Here's a link where you can watch online. Dig - Season 1 It's kind of slow paced at times, and not entirely Biblical, but nonetheless pretty interesting. “Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends. Paul Craig Roberts Deckard  posted on  2015-04-15   13:02:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #31. To: Deckard (#29) His view (and mine as well) is that the "Great Deception" will be fallen angels posing as aliens, telling the world that they created humans and have returned to save us. I can absolutely buy that deception. I can definitely imagine the scenario you've envisioned. People are desperate to be "saved" by anyone, anything other than Jesus Christ and God. Especially aliens. You've no doubt noted the obsession by TV and movies of alien supernatural power, zombies, and magic themes? The Vatican will go along with it, as will all of the other (apostate) religions. That I can also believe. The Vatican (not to be confused with Catholic people) has been a front. For evil. His view is that the UFO's are actual, physical vehicles, the so-called "extra-terrestrials" are demonic entities. Aliens = demons. My belief as well. That the UFOs are actual physical contraptions....They could also be mirages and a trick upon open minds. Btw, been listening to you link....thanks. Liberator  posted on  2015-04-15   13:05:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #32. To: Deckard (#30) Interesting premise for those who are a little patient...looks intelligent and challenging. Liberator  posted on  2015-04-15   13:14:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #33. To: Liberator, Deckard (#31) His view (and mine as well) is that the "Great Deception" will be fallen angels posing as aliens, telling the world that they created humans and have returned to save us. I can absolutely buy that deception. I can definitely imagine the scenario you've envisioned. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-15   14:09:13 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #34. To: Liberator, Deckard (#31) The Vatican will go along with it, as will all of the other (apostate) religions. That I can also believe. The Vatican (not to be confused with Catholic people) has been a front. For evil. Pope Francis says he would baptise aliens: 'Who are we to close doors?' Seems to fit:) "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-15   14:12:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #35. To: redleghunter, Liberator, Deckard, Vicomte13 (#33) His view (and mine as well) is that the "Great Deception" will be fallen angels posing as aliens, telling the world that they created humans and have returned to save us. I can absolutely buy that deception. I can definitely imagine the scenario you've envisioned. That is actually the majority/consensus eastern Orthodox position as well. http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/alien_abduct.aspx Alien Abductions and the Orthodox Christian by Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna It is worthy of note that the late Father Seraphim Rose, in his book Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future (Platina, CA: Saint Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1990; Revised Edition), has also examined the phenomenon of alien visitations to earth from an Orthodox standpoint. He devotes an entire chapter of this work, "‘Signs from Heaven:’ An Orthodox Christian Understanding of Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs)," to the true nature and meaning of alien contacts with human beings. Though Father Seraphim, at a superficial level, approaches this matter in a way reminiscent of Protestant fundamentalistic thinking, and while his materials are dated and center only on more sensationalistic abduction reports—deficits compounded by the fact that some of the authorities whom he cites are clearly on the fringes of science—, his deeper analysis of the phenomenon is ingenious and supports much of what I have suggested about alien encounters with humans. He also observes that the aliens in contemporary abduction reports are similar in appearance to the demons which, for centuries, have been described in Orthodox literature (p. 134). In fact, he recounts two cases of demonic "kidnappings" in fifteenth- and nineteenth-century Russia that, in Father Seraphim’s words, are "quite close to UFO ‘abductions’" today (pp. 136-137). It is his conclusion that classical demonic possession, known to the Orthodox Church for centuries, accounts for the alien abductions that we see in modern times and that "...modern men, for all their proud ‘enlightenment’ and ‘wisdom,’ are becoming once more aware of such experiences—but no longer have the Christian framework with which to explain them" (p. 137). This conclusion perfectly reflects what I have said about alien abductions and how they should be understood and viewed by the Orthodox Christian. From Orthodox Tradition, Vol. XIV, No. 1, pp. 57-62. Pericles  posted on  2015-04-15   15:25:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #36. To: redleghunter (#28) [...] Proponents of the doctrine of a pre-Tribulation Rapture claim that it rests on Scripture and has always been a part of Christian teaching. The truth is that it dates from about 1830 and was largely the creation of John Nelson Darby, a one-time Anglican priest and founder of a sect called the Plymouth Brethren. He contributed much to the dispensationalist scheme, and in particular he was the first to include the Rapture among the catalogue of phenomena of the last times. The Rapture’s recent origin is one of the things which should make us skeptical. Neither the Apostles nor the Fathers expounded any such teaching (nor, for that matter, did any of the notorious heretics of the past). Even Darby’s circle, although they claimed to find support for their teaching in the Bible, did not maintain that they had arrived at this doctrine through study of the Scriptures, but that they had received it through a revelation. According to its supporters the pre-Tribulation Rapture is an extremely important part of the Christian message. Yet it was unknown before 1830. The Rapture’s supporters derive their opinions ultimately from a single Scripture verse [...] When we look at verse 17 in context, it is easy to see that is does not really support the doctrine of the Rapture. There is no reference to a Great Tribulation or to any other events preceding Christ’s Return. The verse refers to something that will happen as part of the Lord’s Coming. The course of events St. Paul presents is simple and straight-forward. At the time of the Second Coming, the dead will be raised, and all the faithful (the dead now restored and those still alive now transfigured) will ascend to be with Him as He comes down. This is the universal interpretation of the Fathers who see the verse as referring to the last days. [...] A Pole  posted on  2015-04-15   15:29:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #37. To: A Pole (#36) Thanks for the propaganda. Please explain how 'harpazo' does not show up in the Greek? It's there. If you were paying attention to my posts, you would not have posted what you did. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-15   15:42:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #38. To: redleghunter (#37) Please explain how 'harpazo' does not show up in the Greek? It's there. Huh? Did I say anything about "harpazo"? BTW the word in Greek is arpagisometha. A Pole  posted on  2015-04-15   15:58:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #39. To: A Pole (#38) BTW the word in Greek is arpagisometha. Which means...exactly what I posted earlier 'caught up' or 'taken away.' The same use as in Acts 8:39. harpazo (transliteration) I. to seize, carry off by force II. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly III. to snatch out or away harpazM Tense: Second Future Voice: Passive Mood: Indicative * The Second Future Passive Indicative verb form occurs 26 times in the New Testament. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-15   16:18:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #40. To: redleghunter, A Pole (#39) (Edited) BTW the word in Greek is arpagisometha. Which means...exactly what I posted earlier 'caught up' or 'taken away.' The same use as in Acts 8:39. harpazo (transliteration) I. to seize, carry off by force II. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly III. to snatch out or away harpazM Tense: Second Future Voice: Passive Mood: Indicative * The Second Future Passive Indicative verb form occurs 26 times in the New Testament. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) The Greeks, who speak and read Greek, having been Greek and Christian for 2 milleniums never read these Greek lines and came up with the Rapture theory until some Protestant Englishman understood it that way. Pericles  posted on  2015-04-15   16:52:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #41. To: Pericles (#40) The Greeks, who speak and read Greek, having been Greek and Christian for 2 milleniums never read these Greek lines and came up with the Rapture theory until some Protestant Englishman understood it that way. I guess English reading comprehension not withstanding. We were discussing the claim "Rapture is not in the Bible" statements of others. Yes it is. I don't care who Darby is (he was Irish BTW) or any theories. I was addressing the term 'rapture' (English) is the 'caught up' of 'harpazo.' "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-15   17:17:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #42. To: redleghunter, A Pole, Vicomte13, TooConservative, BobCeleste, Don, Liberator, Deckard, Pericles, *Neo-Lib Chickenhawk Wars* (#14) I do await Baldwin's expanded comments on Israel. Somehow he links wars we fight with Israel's existence. Is he suggesting Israel not govern themselves and surrender to Arab Muslim nations? I don't think so, but he sees some connection with all the wars America fights with Israel 'just being there.' That is a bit concerning. This is from Chuck Baldwin's recent piece on Rand Paul, the section entitled "*Rand’s recent homage to Benjamin Netanyahu and the Israeli lobby".... -------------------- This is another area where Rand’s father, Ron, was never willing to compromise. Ron had a constitutionally-correct understanding of America’s relationship with Israel and other Middle Eastern nations. And due to the constitutional ignorance (and scriptural misinterpretation regarding the modern state of Israel, thanks mostly to preachers such as John Hagee) of most Christian conservatives, it was this issue that most alienated many of them from Ron’s presidential campaigns. Doubtless, Rand is trying to circumvent that potential opposition from within the conservative Christian community by showing them, “See, I am not my father.” Noted political researcher and analyst Joel Skousen put this in perspective recently, saying, “Rand Paul has the same problem [as Ted Cruz]. He’s decided that he can’t get ahead in politics without being a yes-man to the Israeli lobby, and so he takes his pilgrimage to Israel, meets with Netanyahu and other politically connected Israelis and pledges to stand with Israel. The problem with that position, as I’ve explained many times in the WAB [World Affairs Brief], is that Israel’s leaders are all compromised globalists (especially Netanyahu) so Christians have to learn to separate their allegiance to God’s promises of restoring the house of Israel to their homeland and the aggressive globalist policies of the Israeli government.” Amen! What most Christian conservatives don’t seem to understand is that Ron Paul’s position on Israel (and other foreign nations) is actually the best policy to help the people of the Middle East (including Israelis) that the United States could possibly have. The neocon, pro-war, New World Order (NWO) policies that began under George H.W. Bush, and that continue to the present, are the most destructive policies in the entire world at present. The entire world (including the United States and Israel) are suffering (and will suffer) incalculable tragedy at the hands of these wicked globalists if they are not soon deterred. How tragic that Christian conservatives--who sincerely believe they are being a blessing to Israel by supporting a neocon foreign policy agenda--are actually assisting Israel and America’s worst enemies. And, once again, no other presidential candidate from either party will potentially do anything to challenge the neocon, NWO agenda. If Rand Paul doesn’t do it, no other Republican or Democrat presidential candidate will. Obviously, it is too early for me to actually endorse a presidential candidate. I am willing to say that, at this juncture, Rand Paul and Ted Cruz are the two men who seem to stand out. But, since Ted Cruz’s foreign policy is in lockstep with the neocon agenda, and IF Rand Paul can continue to demonstrate a genuine commitment to oppose a neocon foreign policy, he would definitely have a leg up in my book. ...... The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party "We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul Hondo68  posted on  2015-04-15   19:17:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #43. To: neoconz, ziotard (#42) No relation to the Israel of the Bible. The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party "We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul Hondo68  posted on  2015-04-15   19:26:11 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #44. To: hondo68 (#0) Yup. I recanted of these two items years ago. There might be hope for Chuckie yet! Biff Tannen  posted on  2015-04-15   21:06:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #45. To: misterwhite (#13) Da comrade. The government should nationalize the entire financial sector because when it comes to TOO BIG TO FAIL, big government has the monopoly. /s VxH  posted on  2015-04-15   21:28:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #46. To: Liberator (#22) (Edited) Baldwin may need to review the history of that part of the world, beginning in 1948, Try 1917 historysilver.weebly.com/balfour-declaration.html VxH  posted on  2015-04-15   21:32:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #47. To: redleghunter (#41) (Edited) I was addressing the term 'rapture' (English) is the 'caught up' of 'harpazo.' The term has a specific meaning and it is based on Darby's thesis. No Greek ever read the line or lines in question and thought they would be blinked up or flown up into heaven while alive before the anti-christ comes. The Greek Fathers actually talk about being on earth to endure the torture of the anti- christ as being something to prepare as a way to test the believer for his worthiness to be in heaven. Pericles  posted on  2015-04-16   0:53:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #48. To: Pericles (#47) [...] it is possible to trace the development and transmission of these ideas right back to John Nelson Darby. John Nelson Darby has been called the “father or dispensationalism.” While he was not the first to explicate the idea of dispensationalism, it was he who expanded on and developed the complicated theory of salvation history, which identifies a series of epochs following one another in a linear fashion. He was also the first to solidify the concept of the rapture of the church, based on 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Darby had significant influence on Cyrus Scofield’s beliefs during the Bible Prophecy Conference movement throughout North America at the end of the nineteenth century, and there is no doubt that Scofield borrowed copiously from Darby while writing his annotated Reference Bible. Where does the trail lead from there? Scofield became a close friend and colleague of Lewis Chafer, who went on to found the Evangelical Theological College, which would eventually become the Dallas Theological Seminary. Chafer taught at Dwight L. Moody’s Northfield School in Massachusetts from 1902-1910. During this time, he came into contact with Scofield, who, fresh from the Bible Prophecy Conference movement of the late 1800s, encouraged Chafer’s development as a theologian and preacher. Chafer explicates in an article in Sunday School Times, published in March, 1923, that Scofield was profoundly instrumental in his adoption of his dispensationalism. In 1924 Chafer, founded the Evangelical Theological College. In 1936 it underwent a name-change to become Dallas Theological Seminary and Graduate School of Theology, finally becoming simply the Dallas Theological Seminary (DTS) in 1969. Its first students were a small group of only thirteen that were taught under the guidance of Chafer, who presided over the school from 1924 until 1952, at which point John Walvoord took over as president. Walvoord and Chafer were like-minded colleagues that shared many similar ideas. In 1926, Chafer wrote one of his most significant publications, Major Bible Themes, of which Walvoord revised and updated in 1974. During Walvoord’s presidency at DTS, who else but Hal Lindsey attended the institute, and it was here, under the direction of Walvoord and his staff that Lindsey solidified his pretribulational, premillennial dispensationalism. The final link in this chain is Tim LaHaye. While LaHaye never credits Lindsey for any of his ideas, it is clear that he has relied on large parts of The Late Great Planet Earth for his writing of Left Behind. While reading The Late Great Planet Earth, there are clear similarities between the two authors’ work: from Lindsey’s account of modern warfare during the Tribulations and LaHaye’s description of World War Three, to the words of LaHaye’s main protagonist, Rayford Steel, on his learning of his wife’s disappearance in the rapture – “Rayford had to direct people to the Bible… he had begun taking [his wife’s] Bible everywhere he went, reading it wherever possible;” compared with Lindsey’s, “I’m going to find myself a Bible and read those very verses my wife underlined. I wouldn’t listen to her when she was here…” Compare Lindsey’s account of a football game, “It was the last quarter of the championship game…only one minute to go and they fumbled – our quarterback recovered…when – zap – no more quarterback – completely gone, just like that!” with LaHaye’s soccer game, “most of the spectators and all but one of the players disappeared in the middle of play, leaving their shoes and uniforms on the ground.” Though these similarities may seem coincidental, when reading the two books simultaneously, the parallels between the books are striking, especially in the depictions of the events that occur during the Tribulations. Although neither Lindsey nor LaHaye ever explicitly deny that their ideas stem from this tradition, they are both self-deceived in their belief that the ideas they profess are merely interpretations of “the plain sense” of the biblical text. [...] https://dunedinschool.wordpress.com/2009/09/29/j-n-darbys-end-times-family/ A Pole  posted on  2015-04-16   2:18:28 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #49. To: A Pole (#48) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affinity_fraud VxH  posted on  2015-04-16   5:14:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #50. To: VxH (#49) I do not think that these pastors were committing fraud. They just trusted and believed their teachers or friends, so they developed and spread a mistaken doctrine over a few generations. A Pole  posted on  2015-04-16   6:06:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #51. To: A Pole (#50) www.youtube.com/embed/QqpUoivzvv8 Pax Vobiscum. VxH  posted on  2015-04-16   6:36:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #52. To: A Pole (#50) They just trusted and believed their teachers or friends, so they developed and spread a mistaken doctrine over a few generations. Sort of like the Muslim factions And the Arab Factions And the Zionist factions etc Useful Idiots all -- in the service of kleptocratic vampira who are draining the Idiot's blood into military industrial profits. VxH  posted on  2015-04-16   6:42:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #53. To: hondo68 (#43) No relation to the Israel of the Bible. Nope More like a cult of Ba'alfourian energizer Ishtar bunnies. VxH  posted on  2015-04-16   6:44:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #54. To: hondo68, misterwhite, TEAparrotConservative (#10)   Columnist Cain - October 20, 2008 "Owning a part of the major banks in America is not a bad thing. We could make a profit while solving a problem."     Candidate Cain -- June 4, 2011: “You supported the Tarp bailout in 2008 and you’ve had some new considerations about that?”     Cain nods yes.  “If the banks had trouble again, how would you handle it?”   (Response by Herman Cain) “Let em fail”."         Flip Flop Flip Flop.   VxH  posted on  2015-04-16   7:08:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #55. To: hondo68 (#42) What most Christian conservatives don’t seem to understand is that Ron Paul’s position on Israel (and other foreign nations) is actually the best policy to help the people of the Middle East (including Israelis) that the United States could possibly have. Didn't Dr. Ron Paul give a passing approval for Iran to obtain nuclear weapons? How is that providing stability to a region already so bloody? "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-16   9:19:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #56. To: Pericles (#47) The term has a specific meaning and it is based on Darby's thesis. No Greek ever read the line or lines in question and thought they would be blinked up or flown up into heaven while alive before the anti-christ comes. The Greek Fathers actually talk about being on earth to endure the torture of the anti- christ as being something to prepare as a way to test the believer for his worthiness to be in heaven. The thesis was not the subject of the discussion. However, like over at TOS folks just like to drop their various out of context opinions. No Greek ever read the line or lines in question and thought they would be blinked up or flown up into heaven while alive before the anti-christ comes. Again, you are arguing with a premise I did not put forth. If you read my comments, I agree in principle with Baldwin. We cannot be 'dogmatic' on the timing of 1 Thes. 4:15-17. The fact is 'caught up' IS there (which Baldwin does not deny will happen) but does not say when. In an earlier post I outlined many of the theories out there. None of which were Dispensational or Darby. The fact is even for your church and the Roman church there is no magesterial infallible teaching for those verses. Having a priest opine on it is fine and I welcome the opinions, but they are not infallible authorities. The certainty we have of end times events are clearly outlined in Holy Scriptures and confirmed in the early creeds. Christ will come again, resurrection and judgment following. My point throughout has been above the aforementioned anything above and beyond the clear teachings in Holy Scriptures is the theory or speculation of man. Which means one person's or group's theory is not dogmatic. No Greek ever read the line or lines in question and thought they would be blinked up or flown up into heaven... External from Scriptures the closest we have an early church theologian addressing end times is Irenaeus: 1. In the previous books I have set forth the causes for which God permitted these things to be made, and have pointed out that all such have been created for the benefit of that human nature which is saved, ripening for immortality that which is [possessed] of its own free will and its own power, and preparing and rendering it more adapted for eternal subjection to God. And therefore the creation is suited to [the wants of] man; for man was not made for its sake, but creation for the sake of man. Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance— in fact, as nothing;” Isaiah 40:15 so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption. Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 29) http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103529.htm "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-16   9:44:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #57. To: A Pole (#48) Are you admitting you were wrong in that 'caught up' is actually in Scriptures? What does Darby et. al. have to do with the words which actually appear in the Holy Scriptures? What is your church's infallible interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17? "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-16   9:49:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #58. To: VxH (#54) TARP was enacted before Cain made his initial comments. He was commenting on legislation that was already signed into law. And his comments were 100% correct -- the federal government saved the banks AND made a profit. Now, whether or not TARP should have been enacted to begin with is a whole different argument. misterwhite  posted on  2015-04-16   10:11:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #59. To: VxH (#45) "Da comrade. The government should nationalize the entire financial sector because when it comes to TOO BIG TO FAIL, big government has the monopoly. /s" That's not necessary if the federal government would keep it's nose out of the financial sector to begin with. But when the federal government forces banks -- under the rubric of diversity and inclusiveness -- to offer sub-prime loans to otherwise unqualified buyers, I think they share the responsibility when the bank fails. Had the federal government not intruded itself, the banks would have been just fine. misterwhite  posted on  2015-04-16   10:20:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #60. To: redleghunter (#55) How is that providing stability to a region already so bloody? In exactly the same way that the US, USSR, and Israel having nukes encourages peace, MAD (mutual assured destruction). "More guns=less crime" works at the international level too, IMO. Si vis pacem, para bellum (If you wish for peace, prepare for war). The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party "We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul Hondo68  posted on  2015-04-16   10:33:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #61. To: redleghunter (#56) And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption. Clearly the reading here is the Church will be caught in the tribulation like you are caught in a storm. And as you can see - to suffer at the hands of the antichrist is the last contest of the rightous - none of this stupidity of vanishing people who are good Christians so they won't have to face the tribulation time. Pericles  posted on  2015-04-16   10:51:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #62. To: A Pole (#48) it is possible to trace the development and transmission of these ideas right back to John Nelson Darby. False prophets and anti-christs were foretold. They happen to appeal to Americans who hate the idea they will suffer for Christ. To suffer is not really an American virtue. Pericles  posted on  2015-04-16   10:55:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #63. To: hondo68, tomder55 (#60) In exactly the same way that the US, USSR, and Israel having nukes encourages peace, MAD (mutual assured destruction). "More guns=less crime" works at the international level too, IMO. LOL MAD for madmen...You truly believe Iran having nukes which can reach Europe and eventually (thanks to Russian, Chinese and NK missile technology) our own nation? Has Israel used nukes? No. The 12er movement is in charge of Iran. Yet you see no problem giving a death cult who 'looks forward to' purging the earth with fire to usher in the Mahdi. Amazing. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-16   11:07:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #64. To: Pericles (#61) Clearly the reading here is the Church will be caught in the tribulation like you are caught in a storm. And as you can see - to suffer at the hands of the antichrist is the last contest of the rightous - none of this stupidity of vanishing people who are good Christians so they won't have to face the tribulation time. Thank you for your personal interpretation. However, that is not what the passage from Irenaeus said. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption. Irenaeus uses 'caught up from this' and not 'caught up in.' It would be more accurate to say that the words used by Irenaeus are not certain or clear as was his view of the events unfolding. Using historical exegesis of his time, these were humble men who offered what the Scriptures said without providing much in the way of 'out of the box' commentary. So for me, someone who sees the church enduring the full tribulation of days or "Jacob's time of trouble" can take Irenaeus as saying this. But he leaves open the matter of when the 'the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this.' He leaves that open and does not equate such with a final judgment nor one time resurrection from the dead. That also shows me why some, especially Jewish Messianic Christians see a 'mid tribulation' deliverance of the elect at the 7th and last trumpet. This is the most literal approach of all I have seen, as Paul references the 'with the trumpet of God.' So there is enough in what Irenaeus says and does not say to support both views. Plus if you get the 'spirit' of what he writes, he tells his readers in our common tongue today 'don't worry about it, for it is God's plan.' Another sentiment I share with Baldwin's short comments. Irenaeus left that hanging out there as only reporting the facts from Scriptures and not speculating. I respect this approach and it seems Baldwin is saying much as well. Dispensationals mainly base their eschatology not on a couple of rapture verses but the key being what is meant as 'the wrath of God.' There are two key verses in Scriptures which show God delivers His elect from the 'wrath to come.' Is this the wrath of eternal damnation or wrath poured out as evidenced in Revelation before the Second coming of Christ? That is the question and is what Dispensationalism bases the theory on, not the rapture verses. They see those as supporting verses. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-16   11:27:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #65. To: redleghunter (#63) (Edited) LOL MAD for madmen... Has Israel used nukes? No. Yes, madmen already have nukes...Obongo and Bibi. I don't share your faith in resident Obongo. Talk about a madman! And Bibi's not much better. His drawing shows that he's lost in space. Has the US used nukes? The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party "We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul Hondo68  posted on  2015-04-16   11:40:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #66. To: redleghunter (#64) (Edited) Irenaeus uses 'caught up from this' and not 'caught up in.' In Greek it is clear what he means - the term means "seizure, rape, kidnapping" both in Latin and in Greek - rapture word origin for rape. Jesus is going to rape his people? In Greek the use of harpazo is exactly the same as in Latin - in a negative way. I just can't read that in Greek and view that as a positive occurance to be raptured. Pericles  posted on  2015-04-16   11:55:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #67. To: redleghunter, hondo68, tomder55 (#63) LOL MAD for madmen... You truly believe Iran having nukes which can reach Europe and eventually (thanks to Russian, Chinese and NK missile technology) our own nation? Has Israel used nukes? No. Here's another equivalent: Dateline 1943. By this rationale, if US had given Hitler, Tojo, and Stalin the nuke plans, would Mutually Assured Destruction have created a peaceful end to WWII? Your simplest, greatest point: Israel has had nukes for decades and NEVER used them -- despite the open threat of total destruction from Iran. Peace was maintained. Allowing an insane, irrational Iran to possess nukes is the single most dangerous, insanely irrational policy move. EVER. It guarantees that IT. WILL. BE USED. As First Strikes. Liberator  posted on  2015-04-16   12:26:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #68. To: misterwhite, VxH (#59) When the federal government forces banks -- under the rubric of diversity and inclusiveness -- to offer sub-prime loans to otherwise unqualified buyers, I think they share the responsibility when the bank fails. Had the federal government not intruded itself, the banks would have been just fine. +100 Liberator  posted on  2015-04-16   12:27:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #69. To: redleghunter, A Pole (#57) What does Darby et. al. have to do with the words which actually appear in the Holy Scriptures? They helped write them...right?? Lol... And don't forget Jim Bakker, and Jim Swaggart. They've been Christian's "Pope." *eyeball roll* No people are more caricatured than Christians. Here's EVERY "Christian" or rather "Fundie" pastor according to the intellectual pigmies out there: Liberator  posted on  2015-04-16   12:36:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #70. To: redleghunter, A Pole (#57) (Edited) What does Darby et. al. have to do with the words which actually appear in the Holy Scriptures? They helped write them...right?? Lol... And don't forget Jim Bakker, and Jim Swaggart. They've been Christian's "Pope." *eyeball roll* No people are more caricatured than Christians. Here is the portrait of EVERY "Christian" or rather "Fundie" pastor according to the intellectual pigmies out there: Liberator  posted on  2015-04-16   12:36:23 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #71. To: Liberator (#67) insane, irrational Iran to possess nukes is the single most dangerous, insanely irrational policy move. EVER. It guarantees that IT. WILL. BE USED. For MAD to be mutual, the other side must have them too. M=mutual. Nations (and people) arm themselves against madmen and evil, not unicorns and rainbows. Yeah it's scary, but it's worked throughout history. It's supposed to be scary, that's why it works. Hitler tried disarmament and it didn't work for the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, or overall either. He lost. These Utopian disarmament schemes always end badly. The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party "We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul Hondo68  posted on  2015-04-16   13:28:08 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #72. To: hondo68, A Pole (#71) For MAD to be mutual, the other side must have them too. M=mutual. Nations (and people) arm themselves against madmen and evil, not unicorns and rainbows. Yeah it's scary, but it's worked throughout history. In exactly the same way that the US, USSR, and Israel having nukes encourages peace, MAD (mutual assured destruction). Yes, I know the definition of "MAD." I'm not getting your analogy -- the unicorn & rainbow theory is exactly this case. Yours as well as Ron Paul's failure to comprehend the insanity of allowing Iran makes no sense, nor is it a template comparable to the MAD of the US vs. USSR. The USSR and Israel cared about their people as well as possessing common sense (which is why they'd never used a nuke.) Iran? Do you you actually believe a nation of insane Cultist and radicals wouldn't use big nikes, small nukes, and every nuke in the woodshed? These Utopian disarmament schemes always end badly. Especially when those who dis-value life are given toys of destruction and absolute power. Hitler tried disarmament and it didn't work for the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, or overall either. He lost. Iran isn't derived of arms; Just nukes. And btw -- in Warsaw, the people were disarmed. Except for stolen guns, shovel, clubs, and homemade bombs. I'm sure A Pole can clarify. Liberator  posted on  2015-04-16   14:07:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #73. To: Pericles (#66) In Greek it is clear what he means - the term means "seizure, rape, kidnapping" both in Latin and in Greek - rapture word origin for rape. Jesus is going to rape his people? In Greek the use of harpazo is exactly the same as in Latin - in a negative way. I just can't read that in Greek and view that as a positive occurance to be raptured. That's quite bizarre. I. to seize, carry off by force II. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly III. to snatch out or away See Here "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-16   14:15:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #74. To: hondo68, liberator, tomder55 (#71) For MAD to be mutual, the other side must have them too. M=mutual. Nations (and people) arm themselves against madmen and evil, not unicorns and rainbows. Yeah it's scary, but it's worked throughout history. It's supposed to be scary, that's why it works. Your version of foreign and military policy is even more destabilizing and destructive than the neo-con brand. Here's something to think about. The Soviets understood we would not blow them up and they were not ready to irradiate themselves just to 'win' the world for universal socialism. Kind of hard to till the soil when it is riddled with PU- 249. So Russians are not crazy and Americans are not crazy. MAD worked because neither side had MADmen behind the 'button.' Muslims, if you have not noticed, love to blow up people (and things) in market places, places of worship, schools (Russians experienced that one), and drive 747s into towers. Sure, great idea let them have nuclear weapons. A most unwise approach bordering on insanity. Iran with a nuclear weapon and the proper delivery system? MAD? The best result, and I mean the best result, would be having nuclear weapons means they can step up terrorist activities not only regionally but globally. "Sitting on an A-Bomb" they call the shots and can breed terrorism all over the world. Secondly, Saudi Arabia and the UAE et al will not stand by and let the Shia 12er madmen be the only sons of Muhammad to have nuclear weapons. It leads to proliferation. Before you bring up India and Pakistan, I will say Iran is nothing like India and Pakistan. Neither threaten to turn the ME into molten rubble. They only threaten to do it against each other. Iran is run by psycho Mahdi 12ers hell bent on ushering in the Mahdi Imam so he can 'purge' the world with fire and conquer the world for Islam. Yeah sure, give those kooks a nuke. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-16   16:53:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #75. To: (#40) So, this is what all of the fuss is about: a single line, in a letter of Paul, encouraging Christians facing persecution: "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words." So, what's Paul talking about? "Falling asleep" is a euphemism for "die". Revelation describes world end: heaven and earth rush away. Bad things. Everybody is dying as the calamity engulfs the world. As he comes, the dead rise, here. And as the world dissolves, those with Christ go to the sky with him. The City comes down, the line is formed for judgment, and judgment occurs. Those who went up to meet Jesus coming pass judgment and go into the City. Paul is describing a moment at the end. But that is not what "Rapturists" speak of when they speak of "The Rapture". Paul speaks of a moment, at the end of the world, as the world passes away, when the formerly dead and living who are Christs are caught up into the air to join him as he descends. This is completely different from "The Rapture", as is taught, preached, published, written about. The Rapture is an imagined scenario in which, long before the return of Christ, the end, those who are Christ's suddenly disappear. Then the terrible things spoken of in Revelation come. But look at what Paul is saying! He is saying that when CHRIST COMES, with the trumpet - that's at the END - THEN the dead rise and are caught up with the living into the sky to meet the descending Christ. There will be a lot of dead at that point, as the world passes away. This has nothing to do with "The Rapture" of imagination. There's no spiriting away people in the middle of life before things happen. There's no "Left Behind" of years and years. It's at the moment that Christ returns, which isn't some early on thing. There's a word that Paul uses, a Greek word that means "caught up" with Christ, at the very end of the world, the Great Final Day, when he comes. And that has nothing to do with "The Rapture" of popular imagination. Nowhere in the Bible does The Rapture exist. There is no Rapture in the Bible. Paul's line is the one place that a word translated into Latin as "raptio" occurs, the "catching up" of Paul's letter to the Thessalonians, which fits of a piece with John's Revelation, has as much to do with The Rapture as a lightning bug has to do with lightning. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-04-16   16:57:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #76. To: Don (#9) I read other books; however, I have and will continue judging spiritual matters by how viewpoints stack up against the Holy Bible. There are many good writers of things religious, and they can quote chapter and verse with the best. thanks Don. BobCeleste  posted on  2015-04-16   17:13:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #77. To: redleghunter (#73) That's quite bizarre. Why is that bizarre to you? Are you a Greek speaker? Somehow Greeks forgot what these words mean? Pericles  posted on  2015-04-16   18:55:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #78. To: redleghunter, *Neo-Lib Chickenhawk Wars* (#74) (Edited) even more destabilizing and destructive than the neo-con brand. We can't afford to train, equip, and fund the McCain Hillary al-CIA-da to chop Christians heads off, and then fight them too. Voters are sick of it as well! The era of USA World Police is over, one way or the other. Reagan and the Paul's knew it decades ago, but the neocons will never admit it. Ronald Reagan and the Paul Family during Reagan’s 1976 Presidential bid- Ron and Rand to the left of Reagan The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party "We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul Hondo68  posted on  2015-04-16   19:31:37 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #79. To: misterwhite (#59) (Edited) But when the federal government forces banks -- Horse manure. The leading sub-prime originator in the country at one time was Ameriquest/Argent morgtage, and Ameriquest was NOT a bank. In fact their products didn't even qualify for Freddy/Fannie coverage. Nothing forced the systemically corrupt vampira on Wall Street and elsewhere into buying "revolutionary" securitized a$$paper - nothing other than their own greed. Furthermore there are numerous local banks and credit unions who NEVER entered the sub-prime market, and didn't require bailing out. VxH  posted on  2015-04-16   19:40:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #80. To: misterwhite (#59) (Edited) GeeOpie, I wonder if the RINOcrats would like to recant selling the Ambassadorship to the Netherlands to the Godfather of Subprime?.    "Oops"  VxH  posted on  2015-04-16   19:58:11 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #81. To: misterwhite (#59) it's nose out of the financial sector to begin with. Whose nose was in what when Glass-stegall was defanged? "FRAUD - You probably think there should be rules against it, I think the market will figure it out" --Alan Greenspan to Brooksley Born Even Greenspan admits he had his head in his arse. VxH  posted on  2015-04-16   20:29:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #82. To: VxH (#81) "Whose nose was in what when Glass-stegall was defanged?" I see. You're saying it was actually the repeal of the Glass–Steagall Act that caused the financial crisis -- ten years later. So I guess Congress learned their lesson and restored Glass-Steagall, right? misterwhite  posted on  2015-04-17   10:14:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #83. To: misterwhite (#82) (Edited) You're saying it was actually the repeal of the Glass–Steagall Act that caused the financial crisis -- ten years later. "Greenspan Urges Glass-Steagall Repeal WASHINGTON, Nov. 19 — Federal Reserve Board Chairman Alan Greenspan urged Congress on Wednesday to strike down barriers that have kept bank holding companies out of the securities underwriting business." www.americanbanker.com/17...all-repeal-1044317-1.html http://www.businessinsider.com/the-warning-brooksley-borns-battle-with-alan-greenspan-robert-rubin-and-larry-summers-2009-10 http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/ Greenspan RECANTS! Congress?  LOL.  Congress is pwned. It couldn't find its own arse with both hands and a SQL statement telling them exactly where to find it.   Did Congress force AIG to "insure" the whole CRIMINAL cluster fracked Ponzi scheme? No. The hedge funded suuuuuper geniuses did that all by themselves. VxH  posted on  2015-04-17   10:33:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #84. To: VxH (#81) "Even Greenspan admits he had his head in his arse." He was referring to federal regulation of the derivatives market. The problem is not derivatives. The problem is what the derivative is derived from. When the derivative is sub-prime mortgage-backed securities and the sub- prime mortgage is a worthless piece of paper (due to federal government interference), the derivative is worthless. Keep in mind that it was a government institution, Fannie Mae, that rated these mortgage backed securities and said they were solid. They lied. misterwhite  posted on  2015-04-17   10:50:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #85. To: VxH (#83) So I guess Congress learned their lesson and restored Glass-Steagall, right? misterwhite  posted on  2015-04-17   10:54:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #86. To: VxH (#79) "Nothing forced the systemically corrupt vampira on Wall Street and elsewhere into buying "revolutionary" securitized a$$paper - nothing other than their own greed." And who told the investors these sub-prime mortgage-backed securities were solid? Fannie Mae. AKA, the Federal National Mortgage Association. A government-sponsored enterprise. As I said, had the federal government not stuck it's nose into the financial sector to begin with, the banks and other financial institutions would have been just fine. misterwhite  posted on  2015-04-17   11:13:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #87. To: redleghunter, Deckard (#33) ....fallen angels posing as aliens, telling the world that they created humans and have returned to save us.... I never watched the X-Files...but was that the premise of the show? Liberator  posted on  2015-04-17   11:42:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #88. To: Pericles (#35) That is actually the majority/consensus eastern Orthodox position as well... ....It is his conclusion that classical demonic possession, known to the Orthodox Church for centuries, accounts for the alien abductions that we see in modern times.... Interesting... Liberator  posted on  2015-04-17   11:44:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #89. To: hondo68 (#43) No relation to the Israel of the Bible. No....not EVERY little detail (like Israel defending itself against rabid Muzzie Death Cultists) is mentioned in the Bible. Liberator  posted on  2015-04-17   11:46:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #90. To: redleghunter, Deckard, Bob Celeste, Stoner, A K A Stone, Vicomte13, CZ82, TooConservative (#34) (link) Pope Francis says he would baptise aliens: 'Who are we to close doors?' Seems to fit:) "Who?" indeed. This statement from this Pope fits like an asbestos glove :-) If two of the past three Popes were willing to kiss the Koran, then NOTHING should be surprising from the Vatican. It's been an embarrassment now for too long. (from Red's link): Speaking at the British Science Festival in 2010, one of then-Pope Benedict XVI’s astronomers said he would baptise an alien “if they asked”. While he accepted that the chances of ever getting such an opportunity were slim, Guy Consolmagno said: “Any entity – no matter how many tentacles it has – has a soul.” Firstly....who knew the Vatican has a staff of astronomers? WHY?? Secondly, Pope Benedict and now Francis are ready to baptize ETs..."no matter how many tentacles"?? Very odd statement. Liberator  posted on  2015-04-17   12:58:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #91. To: Liberator (#90) The Pope has to be up to date on scientific theory. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-04-17   13:30:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #92. To: Vicomte13 (#91) The Pope has to be up to date on scientific theory. Am I to understand this is your theory for the reason for the Vatican's astronomers? Liberator  posted on  2015-04-17   13:37:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #93. To: misterwhite (#86) And who told the investors these sub-prime mortgage-backed securities were solid? None of Ameriquest/Argent mortgage's a$$paper ever qualified for underwriting by Freddy/Fannie. Got any more straw? VxH  posted on  2015-04-17   14:44:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #94. To: Liberator (#92) Am I to understand this is your theory for the reason for the Vatican's astronomers? It's not a theory. Modern astronomy began with the Church (Copernicus, Galileo), and to this day much of the grunt work of recording the transits of planets across the Sun is done worldwide by the Jesuits. Pope Leo XIII, speaking in 1891 of the purpose of the Vatican Observatory: “…that everyone might see clearly that the Church and her Pastors are not opposed to true and solid science, whether human or divine, but that they embrace it, encourage it, and promote it with the fullest possible devotion.” Modern science originally came out of the Catholic universities. Philosophically, the Catholic Church is pro-science because of the belief in a universe rationally ordered by God. Think of all of the universities just in the USA that are Catholic: Notre Dame, Georgetown, Boston College, Loyola, St. John's, Marquette. Overseas, the Sorbonne has been nationalized in France, but Louvain and La Sapienza are still Catholic. All told, there are 1358 Catholic universities around the world. (There are a total of 2474 4-year colleges of all types in the USA; 197 of them are Catholic.) The Catholic Church is the most widespread educational institution on the planet, with more primary and secondary educational systems in more countries than any other. And remember: the Pope is the head of all of that. He needs to know what is going on in the scientific world. Heliocentrism originated from a Catholic monk, Copernicus, was confirmed by the observations of a Catholic university professor, Galileo. Modern scientific theory was derived by a devout French Catholic: Descartes, with deeper math theory expounded by a devout visionary, Paschal. Pasteur gave us germ theory, and the monk Mendel gave us genetic theory. Bacon, the medieval who prefigured the scientific method, was a Catholic monk. So was the famous William of Ockham, author of "Occam's Razor" (he was a Franciscan). Avogadro (of the famous number) and Bequerel, Volta (inventor of the battery) and Vesalius (founder of anatomy); Lavoisier (creator of chemistry), Lamarck (whom Darwin challenged), Fermat and Galvani with his frog legs. And so on. The Catholic Church has always been scientific in its focus. Catholics believe that the Natural Law is God's law, and that God's laws are rational. Therefore, Catholics have always expected to find rational order in the universe, and have always intuited that, if they looked hard enough, they would find it. This is one of the distinctive features of Catholic philosophy that is different - radically different - from many of the Protestant philosophies. It's the reason why Catholics are untroubled by the theory of evolution, and teach it in Catholic schools. It's the best science (as produced through the method), at the time. Obviously Catholics believe that God is the source of all natural law. The Church has always been interested in the sciences, and needs to be, because science and religion are fundamentally intertwined, and the Pope needs to be kept up to date on developments. That's why the Pope has an astronomer. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-04-17   14:45:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #95. To: misterwhite (#85) So I guess Congress learned their lesson and restored Glass-Steagall, right? What part of "congress is now pwned" by organized criminals are you having trouble comprehending? VxH  posted on  2015-04-17   14:47:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #96. To: misterwhite (#84) Keep in mind that it was a government institution, Fannie Mae, that rated these mortgage backed securities and said they were solid. They lied. GeeOpie, you keep trying to pull that opinion out of your arse as if it were fact. It's not fact. The FACT is that the one-time leader of sub-prime origination AMERIQUEST/ARGENT Mortgage, NEVER produced products that qualified for Freddy/fannie underwriting. VxH  posted on  2015-04-17   14:50:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #97. To: misterwhite (#84) (Edited) He was referring to federal regulation of the derivatives market. And the housing market. Housing never goes down, right? That's the essence of what he said - and what he admitted he was wrong about. The gaming of housing prices and the gaming of the derivatives market cannot be separated, they are sewage in the same systemically corrupt sewer pipe. The same is true about congress and the vermin who've corrupted it to facilitate their kleptocracy. "Lender Lobbying Blitz Abetted Mortgage Mess Ameriquest Pressed For Changes in Laws; A Battle in New Jersey" www.wsj.com/articles/SB119906606162358773 VxH  posted on  2015-04-17   15:00:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #98. To: VxH (#97) "Housing never goes down, right? That's the essence of what he said - and what he admitted he was wrong about." He said that, historically, housing never went down. misterwhite  posted on  2015-04-17   15:22:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #99. To: Liberator (#87) It was every CT theory rolled up in a giant alien motif. Everything going wrong in the world had some alien influence. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-17   15:53:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #100. To: Liberator (#92) Am I to understand this is your theory for the reason for the Vatican's astronomers? "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-17   15:59:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #101. To: Vicomte13 (#94) Pope Leo XIII, speaking in 1891 of the purpose of the Vatican Observatory: “…that everyone might see clearly that the Church and her Pastors are not opposed to true and solid science, whether human or divine, but that they embrace it, encourage it, and promote it with the fullest possible devotion.” Modern science originally came out of the Catholic universities. Philosophically, the Catholic Church is pro-science because of the belief in a universe rationally ordered by God. Think of all of the universities just in the USA that are Catholic... I can accept your scientific knowledge explanation fully.....and it made sense. IN THE PAST. Back when the Vatican was as active, powerful and rich a force on the planet. In that sense, astronomy as one more scientific subject to be studied behooved the Vatican and Catholic Universities... But does it make any sense in the last half century or so? How is the Vatican with its staff of astronomers really supposed to make more discoveries than NASA or any international space programs and modern equipment? If the Pope needs updating on the discovery new planets, I'm sure the world's scientific community can update him. At this point it's just a hobby. And btw -- what "developments" would be so crucial in the field of astronomy that any Pope needs to be "updated"? "Alien" life?? Liberator  posted on  2015-04-17   16:17:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #102. To: Vicomte13, liberator, SOSO (#94) Notre Dame, Georgetown, Boston College, Loyola, St. John's, Marquette Of course you left out two of the better Catholic universities in your list:) "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-17   16:19:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #103. To: redleghunter (#99) It [The X-Files] was every CT theory rolled up in a giant alien motif. Everything going wrong in the world had some alien influence. Too CT. Even for me. Now if the show featured demons, alien "people" who are reptiles, ghost riders in the sky, witches, and zombies, THEN we have a realistic CT. ;-) Liberator  posted on  2015-04-17   16:21:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #104. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13, SOSO (#102) Georgetown?? Is it still "Catholic"? Even though for President ZERO's visit they inexplicably covered up “IHS”-- symbolizing the name of Jesus Christ? Liberator  posted on  2015-04-17   16:24:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #105. To: Vicomte13 (#94) This is one of the distinctive features of Catholic philosophy that is different - radically different - from many of the Protestant philosophies. Not really. Protestant philosophers were/are quite steeped in knowing the universe as a creation of God is ordered. You can see it in the Reformation art. Also, Decartes may have been baptized Catholic but he was more an Enlightenment philosopher. Too much into the rationalism of the time. Those who followed Decartes ended up being the modern atheists or at least deists. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-17   16:28:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #106. To: redleghunter, CZ82 (#100) HA! Great scene, great flick! It was all quite believable (until they jumped the shark when a mothballed WWII Battleship and their 90 year old skeleton crew evaded then took out the Alien Ship.) :-( Liberator  posted on  2015-04-17   16:29:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #107. To: Liberator (#103) alien "people" who are reptiles My favorite are the 'shape shifting' reptiles:) When my boys were young I made up bedtime stories of farm animals who were trained in Kung-fu who fight off an alien invasion of shape shifting aliens. Should have wrote down those stories...could have sold them:) The Kung-fu Cow (really a bull) would toss flaming cow patties as his attack weapon. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-17   16:30:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #108. To: Liberator (#101) And btw -- what "developments" would be so crucial in the field of astronomy that any Pope needs to be "updated"? "Alien" life?? Maybe, if the Pope takes some of Revelation literally, he will be looking for this: Revelation 9 9 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them. 7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. 8 They had hair like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle. 10 They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months. 11 And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon. 12 One woe is past. Behold, still two more woes are coming after these things. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-17   16:36:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #109. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13 (#105) Protestant philosophers were/are quite steeped in knowing the universe as a creation of God is ordered. You can see it in the Reformation art. Let's also not forget that to anything BUT "Catholic" before Luther was verboten. So it could well be said the Protestant-ism facilitated the Enlightenment and all of the strides in the arts as well as sciences. Decartes may have been baptized Catholic but he was more an Enlightenment philosopher. Too much into the rationalism of the time. Those who followed Decartes ended up being the modern atheists or at least deists. Yup. The "can 'o worms" that was the Reformation liberated Descartes and the modern Atheist/Deist movement to not only reject Catholicism, but also Protestantism, and ultimately any word of God at the far end of the "Free Will" spectrum. Liberator  posted on  2015-04-17   16:38:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #110. To: redleghunter (#107) My favorite are the 'shape shifting' reptiles:) Is that when the beautiful lady morphs into her "real" self?: An ugly alien reptile? (How disappointing that is ;-) When my boys were young I made up bedtime stories of farm animals who were trained in Kung-fu who fight off an alien invasion of shape shifting aliens. Should have wrote down those stories...could have sold them:) Man...that is hilarious! Too bad you didn't record those tales... The Kung-fu Cow (really a bull) would toss flaming cow patties as his attack weapon. I'm stealing that. For MY book. LOL Liberator  posted on  2015-04-17   16:41:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #111. To: Liberator, Vicomte13, SOSO (#104) Georgetown?? Is it still "Catholic"? Even though for President ZERO's visit they inexplicably covered up “IHS”-- symbolizing the name of Jesus Christ? The Catholics over at TOS opine that Catholic universities are not really under a bishop or cardinal etc. That's their answer. It is just an excuse IMO like some Protestant universities which are religious in name only. Georgetown stopped being "Catholic" long before I was college age. One of the reasons my uncle convinced me to avoid going there and instead look at few other 'Catholic' universities like Stubenville, Fairfield and Fordham. I went to Fordham and it was Catholic enough for the times (80s) but had a slant towards Marxist professors on the one hand and some old Jesuits who were very conservative in dogma and morals. Yet Fordham even in the mid to late 80s had a homosexual alliance club which the university funded like all other clubs. This was a first hint that the University was not not fully adhering to Catholic doctrine. So in my uncle's most astute observation, Georgetown was gone and I reported back to him Fordham was getting there. Given the alumni newsletters I get Fordham has gone the way of Georgetown. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-17   16:44:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #112. To: redleghunter (#108) Maybe, if the Pope takes some of Revelation literally, he will be looking for this: Revelation 9 9 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.... (No telescope needed.) Not a big fan of "woes." ;-) Liberator  posted on  2015-04-17   16:49:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #113. To: misterwhite (#98) He said that, historically, housing never went down. Well, so much for those "assurances". Whose fault was it when Greenspan was advocating removing Glass-steagal? VxH  posted on  2015-04-17   16:59:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #114. To: Liberator (#112) And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. I forget, was that Nebuchadnezzar or Lucifer in Isaiah? VxH  posted on  2015-04-17   17:00:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #115. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13, SOSO (#111) The Catholics over at TOS opine that Catholic universities are not really under a bishop or cardinal etc. That's their answer. It is just an excuse IMO like some Protestant universities which are religious in name only. Is that how they explained it? That because there's no actual Catholic oversight any longer? You wonder just how this transformation took place. At either a "Catholic" or "Protestant" faith-based university or college. Sad. One of the reasons my uncle convinced me to avoid going there [Georgetown] and instead look at few other 'Catholic' universities like Stubenville, Fairfield and Fordham. I went to Fordham and it was Catholic enough for the times (80s) but had a slant towards Marxist professors on the one hand and some old Jesuits who were very conservative in dogma and morals. Yet Fordham even in the mid to late 80s had a homosexual alliance club which the university funded like all other clubs. This was a first hint that the University was not not fully adhering to Catholic doctrine. Yeah, ya think?? Well, it was impressive enough just to qualify for Georgetown and the other schools....Wound up at Fordham? Good rep. Despite (uggh!) university-sancioned gay clubs as far back as the 80s??) At least some old school conservative Jesuits (kinda) off-set the Marxist profs. I can't imagine the degree of Gay-Marxist-anti-Americanism influence these days. After all...are you satisfied with the experience? You're a native New Yawkah, right? So in my uncle's most astute observation, Georgetown was gone and I reported back to him Fordham was getting there. Given the alumni newsletters I get Fordham has gone the way of Georgetown. Apparently you were among the last to attend Fordham "back in the olde days." Is Unc still around? Liberator  posted on  2015-04-17   17:04:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #116. To: VxH (#114) I don't think it's as much as you "forget" as much as you're very confused. Do you believe Revelation? The Gospel? Or for that matter Isaiah or ANY of the Bible? Or are you content to selectively quote what you want? Does that mean you own a Jeffersonian Bible? Liberator  posted on  2015-04-17   17:07:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #117. To: Liberator, SOSO (#115) Apparently you were among the last to attend Fordham "back in the olde days." Is Unc still around? He is home with the Lord. And a proud graduate of Manhattan College to boot! "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-17   17:12:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #118. To: Liberator (#116) (Edited) So you can't answer whether it was Lucifer or Nebuchadnezzar. Thanks for clearing that up. Don't let me interrupt your pining for the Apokeeeclypse. Carry on. VxH  posted on  2015-04-17   17:29:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #119. To: VxH (#114) Would it have been Neb. or Lucifer who fell from Heaven like a shooting star? Don  posted on  2015-04-17   17:50:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #120. To: VxH (#113) "Whose fault was it when Greenspan was advocating removing Glass-steagal?" Are you saying Glass-Steagall was responsible for the banking crisis? If not, give it a f**king rest already. misterwhite  posted on  2015-04-17   17:55:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #121. To: misterwhite (#120) (Edited) Are you saying Glass-Steagall was responsible for the banking crisis? If not, give it a f**king rest already. Are you saying the deregulation advocated by Greenspan didn't allow banks to engage in activities that resulted in the big 4 PRESENTLY holding over 200 Trillion dollars in notional derivatives? If not, then give yourself a f**king rest and try doing some actual research into the events that created the environment in which the so-called "banking" crisis transpired instead of regurgitating Lush Limbaugh's GeeOpie sound bytes. VxH  posted on  2015-04-17   19:05:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #122. To: Don (#119) Would it have been Neb. or Lucifer who fell from Heaven like a shooting star? Either, depending on which translation of Isaiah you read. King James is the only one that refers to Lucifer instead of Ne-bu-chad-nez-ZAR. ZAR/SAR being an Akkadian meme meaning Sun-prince. It's not surprising joly ol' King Jimmuh's translation would be the one to muddy the water - and draw attention away from the perch he himself was propped upon, atop the theocratic state-establishment. VxH  posted on  2015-04-17   19:12:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #123. To: Liberator (#90) Speaking at the British Science Festival in 2010, one of then-Pope Benedict XVI’s astronomers said he would baptise an alien “if they asked”. While he accepted that the chances of ever getting such an opportunity were slim, Guy Consolmagno said: “Any entity – no matter how many tentacles it has – has a soul.” Don't worry, the Vatican is grappling with these theological issues. Tooconservative  posted on  2015-04-17   21:30:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #124. To: Liberator (#106) That's one thing I need to add to my bucket list is to go to Pearl and take a tour of the Missouri and sit on top of one of the 16" gun turrets. Also go to the Arizona and pay my respects to those who are still entombed. “Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.â€� CZ82  posted on  2015-04-17   21:41:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #125. To: Liberator, redleghunter, Vicomte13, (#104) Georgetown?? Is it still "Catholic"? Even though for President ZERO's visit they inexplicably covered up “IHS”-- symbolizing the name of Jesus Christ? And Notre Dame gave the emperor, yes, the one that advocates for late term abortion, an honorary degree. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-04-17   21:59:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #126. To: redleghunter (#117) Apparently you were among the last to attend Fordham "back in the olde days." Is Unc still around? He is home with the Lord. And a proud graduate of Manhattan College to boot! As every Jasper of that age and at least through the '60s is. Alas, Manhattan has changed much from the time I graduated in the mid-60s. It traditionally was a day school that served the lower middle class Irish and Italian kids who could not afford the higher tuition of most other private colleges/universitites or afford to board. At the time over 90% of the student body were day commuters like myself. I understand that most of the student body now are residents and that tution and board for the typical engineering student is over $50,000/year. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь SOSO  posted on  2015-04-17   22:09:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #127. To: CZ82 (#124) (Edited) Tooconservative  posted on  2015-04-17   23:30:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #128. To: TooConservative (#127) What?? “Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.â€� CZ82  posted on  2015-04-18   9:21:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #129. To: VxH (#121) OK. So you're saying that Glass-Steagall was NOT responsible for the banking crisis but you're going to keep bringing it up anyways. Just like you're going to keep bringing up your stupid Ameriquest argument despite the FACT that they only represented a very small part of the problem. Just like you're going to keep bringing up your stupid "whiteout and scissors" argument like that was the main problem. Take your red herrings elsewhere. The government interfered with the financial market. It was only fair that they cleaned up their own mess. That they did so at a profit was simply a bonus. misterwhite  posted on  2015-04-18   10:04:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #130. To: CZ82 (#128) "What??" You heard him. So what's your response? misterwhite  posted on  2015-04-18   10:05:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #131. To: misterwhite (#129) (Edited) so you're saying that Glass-Steagall was NOT responsible for the banking crisis Nope.  Removing the prohibitions of Glass-Steagall absolutely was part of the problem. I'm saying go educate yourself about the systemic sewer system's plumbing before talking out of your a$$.  your stupid Ameriquest argument despite the FACT that they only represented a very small part of the problem. Country Wide, Wells Fargo, Bear Stearns, and the other predators who followed the "revolutionary" model pioneered by Roland Arnall and his merry band of Long Beach pirates evidently didn't think it was so stupid.   Ameriquest founder was subprime "godfather" Roland Arnall, founder of Orange-based Ameriquest Mortgage Co. and a "godfather of subprime lending," died Monday at age 68. Arnall, who resigned this month as U.S. ambassador to the Netherlands, died "suddenly" of cancer at UCLA Medical Center, said family spokeswoman Lisa Cohen. A major contributor to Republican Party causes and President Bush's campaigns, Arnall was appointed ambassador in 2006 after Ameriquest and its affiliated companies agreed to pay $325 million - without admitting wrongdoing - to settle complaints of predatory lending by attorneys general in 49 states. Arnall built a fortune, estimated at $1.5 billion by Forbes magazine, writing loans for people with spotty credit, a type of loan later known as "subprime." ... Wall Street sold the mortgages as securities, fueling a real estate boom followed by the current bust that triggered worldwide economic turmoil, highlighted by this week's collapse of investment bank Bear Stearns Cos. ... A Jewish native of France, Arnall's family survived World War II before moving to America. Arnall sold flowers on the streets of Los Angeles and then real estate in the 1970s, before founding Long Beach Savings in 1979. That bank split into Ameriquest and a publicly traded subsidiary that sold for $350 million in 1999 to become the subprime arm of Washington Mutual. Arnall's executives founded other subprime lenders - Brea-based ResMae Mortgage Corp. and Encore Credit Corp. in Irvine....  www.ocregister.com/articl...-subprime-ameriquest.html "Oops"    Can anybody tell the class what RINO enterpise the "Progress for America Fund" paddled swiftly up the river? VxH  posted on  2015-04-18   10:29:23 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #132. To: VxH (#131) "Nope. Removing the prohibitions of Glass-Steagall absolutely was part of the problem." Oh, now it's "part" of the problem? Well hell, I'll concede Ameriquest was "part" of the problem as well as "whiteout and scissors" were "part" of the problem. Glass-Steagall was repealed 10 years before the banking crisis. "Ameriquest founder was subprime "godfather" You are so desperate in your search for a boogeyman. What percentage of the subprime loans did "Godfather" Ameriquest make? Do you know? How about 10%? misterwhite  posted on  2015-04-18   10:50:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #133. To: misterwhite (#132) (Edited) >>Oh, now it's "part" of the problem?   It was always part of the problem shyte for brains.   >>What percentage of the subprime loans did "Godfather" Ameriquest make?   What percentage of subprime loans were made by those who followed the securitization model the Godfather's fraudulent enterprise invented?   starting with the emergence of subprime mortgage lending in Southern California in the 1980’s. Roland Arnall was there at the beginning, at the helm of a small federal savings bank, and Hudson’s main narrative traces how Arnall’s lending operations grew into the nation’s biggest subprime lending empire. At their peak in 2004, Ameriquest and its affiliates generated $83 billion in subprime loans—and $1.3 billion in profits. The bulk of the profits flowed through to Arnall, elevating him to #73 on the Forbes Four Hundred list of the richest Americans. He took the money and ran, becoming U.S. Ambassador to the Netherlands in early 2006. ... still, the explosive growth of subprime lenders like Ameriquest was only possible because of the big Wall Street firms that purchased their loans and packaged them into securities sold to investors. Wall Street’s quest for the generous fees gained in this process led them to be no more interested in borrowers” ability to repay their loans than were the lenders. So Hudson’s second focus is on Lehman Brothers, the biggest Wall Street backer of subprime lenders, and the picture there was no prettier than it was at Ameriquest. A Lehman executive who visited the now-infamous First American Mortgage Company (FAMCO) in the 1990s reported back that “there is something really unethical about the type of business in which FAMCO is engaged. ... [I]t is a requirement to leave your ethics at the door.” Nevertheless, Lehman eagerly sought to finance the company’s operations and buy its loans. etc. etc. http://dollarsandsense.org/archives/2011/0511campen.html   >>Glass-Steagall was repealed 10 years before the banking crisis.   Long enough to inflate the bubble.       " Uhhhh, that's not ours either! " ---Weiner, Obama, Perry, Pelosi, Frank, Pritzker and Associates, LLLP.         Nudge nudge nudge...     "the explosive growth of subprime lenders like Ameriquest was only possible because of the big Wall Street firms that purchased their loans and packaged them into securities sold to investors. " Without the repeal of Glass-Steagall, that pipeline wouldn't have been open. VxH  posted on  2015-04-18   11:45:58 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #134. To: misterwhite (#130) You heard him. So what's your response? “Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.â€� CZ82  posted on  2015-04-18   12:04:33 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #135. To: misterwhite (#85) (Edited) So I guess Congress learned their lesson and restored Glass-Steagall, right?   Lender Lobbying Blitz Abetted Mortgage Mess Ameriquest Pressed For Changes in Laws; A Battle in New Jersey By Glenn R. Simpson Updated Dec. 31, 2007 12:01 a.m. ET During the housing boom, the subprime industry succeeded at more than just writing mortgages. It also shot down efforts by some states to curtail risky lending to borrowers with spotty credit. Ameriquest Mortgage Co., until recently one of the nation's largest subprime lenders, was at the center of those battles. Working with a husband-and-wife team of Washington lobbyists, it handed out more than $20 million in political donations and played a big role in persuading legislators in New Jersey and Georgia to relax tough new laws. Those victories, in turn, helped blunt efforts by other states to crack down on reckless lending, critics of the industry contend. ... A close look at Ameriquest's lobbying and political donations shows how the subprime industry maneuvered to defeat legislation that might have contained some of the damage. Executives at Ameriquest, based in Orange, Calif., acknowledge that the company lobbied heavily against state lending restrictions, but say that other subprime lenders did so as well. In fact, a host of subprime lenders and banking trade groups, including Citigroup Inc., Wells Fargo & Co., Countrywide Financial Corp. and the Mortgage Bankers Association, spent heavily on lobbying and political giving.... http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB119906606162358773 Do you RECANT? VxH  posted on  2015-04-18   12:08:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #136. To: hondo68 (#0) (Edited) Israel is NOT the prophetic fulfillment of the future redeemed nation of Israel. NOT IN ANY SHAPE, MANNER, OR FORM. I further conclude that the misapplication of applying prophetic scriptures to the modern state of Israel is producing nothing but perpetual war, the demise of liberty at home, the rise of a Police State, and the facilitation of a devilish New World Order.   A Jewish native of France, Arnall's family survived World War II before moving to America. Arnall sold flowers on the streets of Los Angeles and then real estate in the 1970s, before founding Long Beach Savings in 1979. That bank split into Ameriquest... ...Jon Daurio, who worked as Arnall's senior vice president in the 1990s, described his former boss as "one of the godfathers of subprime." He praised Arnall's philanthropy, which included support of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles ... http://www.ocregister.com/articles/arnall-15839-subprime-ameriquest.html Uhuh. IOW Arnall, the Godfather of Subprime, was a Zionist shyster POS. Hos 12:7-8 7 The merchant uses dishonest scales; he loves to defraud. 8 Ephraim boasts, "I am very rich; I have become wealthy. With all my wealth they will not find in me any iniquity or sin." NIV How is the affinity fraud, concocted by Godfather Arnall and "Focus on the Family" stooges like Jorge Bush, working out these days for the McSheeple who refied the McMansion and his and hers Escapes in the hope that they'd be Raptured off into Apokeeland before the ARM on their stated-income liar loan exploded in their face? I bet those McSheeple would like to RACANT too. Ooops! VxH  posted on  2015-04-18   12:32:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #137. To: VxH (#135) What the heck did Glass-Steagall have to do with Ameriquest? You're all over the place, throwing shit around and hoping some of it sticks someplace. misterwhite  posted on  2015-04-18   14:23:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #138. To: VxH (#122) Which version has King Neb. living in Heaven and turning into a shooting star? Don  posted on  2015-04-18   15:00:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #139. To: misterwhite (#137) What the heck did Glass-Steagall have to do with Ameriquest? LOL. What did the barriers that prevented banks from engaging in the trade of securitized instruments have to do with Ameriquest. Well GeeOpie, who do you think it was that bought all that Securitized, subprime, A$$Paper - and then went on to game it into a 220+ TRILLION dollar derivative bubble on top of the turd pond? www.occ.gov/topics/capita...ing/derivatives/dq114.pdf Hint: It wasn't Freddy/Fannie. VxH  posted on  2015-04-18   15:09:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #140. To: Don (#138) (Edited) Isa 14:12 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! KJV Lucifer the Light bearer - aka the Morning Star - symbol of the fallen king of Babylon. Who is the fallen king of Babylon? Hint: It aint the debil - it was a man, and his name was Nebuchadnezzar. http://biblehub.com/topical/naves/l/lucifer--nebuchadnezzar_called_by_this_name.htm https://www.google.com/#q=Nebuchadnezzar+or+Lucifer VxH  posted on  2015-04-18   15:21:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #141. To: Don (#138) (Edited) Kipling's "The man who would be king" describes the process. We might infer this was also how the Yezidi of Northern Iraq came to worship "fallen angels". http://www.google.com/#q=Yazidi%2BFallen%2BAngels A little technology can manufacture a whole lot of FRAUD among the right audience. Got Morals and Dogma? Kipling did. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mor...ttish_Rite_of_Freemasonry VxH  posted on  2015-04-18   16:03:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #142. To: VxH (#141) You are hitting all points of the map called "Skipping Around the Mayberry Bush." Don  posted on  2015-04-18   17:30:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #143. To: VxH (#140) The reference is to Satan by using a human King as a symbol. You know this already, don't you? Don  posted on  2015-04-18   17:32:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #144. To: VxH (#139) Glass-Steagall separated commercial banking and investment banking. Ameriquest was neither. It was a pure mortgage lender. I'll ask you again. What the heck did Glass-Steagall have to do with Ameriquest? "Well GeeOpie, who do you think it was that bought all that Securitized, subprime, A$$Paper - and then went on to game it into a 220+ TRILLION dollar derivative bubble on top of the turd pond?" The investment banks -- Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns, Goldman Sachs, Citigroup and Merrill Lynch. And Freddie and Fannie bought about $300 billion of mortgage-backed securities from them. misterwhite  posted on  2015-04-18   18:16:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #145. To: misterwhite (#144) (Edited) It was a pure mortgage lender. It wasn't a lender, it was an originator. Who ended up buying the securitized a$$paper from that "pure mortgage" originator? "The investment banks -- Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns, Goldman Sachs, Citigroup and Merrill Lynch. " That's right the investment bankers did -- And what does "separating commercial and investment banking" mean in relation to the down stream flow from Ameriquest/Argent Mortgage's sub-prime sewer system? "The Subprime Crisis—A Test Match For The Bankers: Glass–Steagall vs. Gramm-Leach-Bliley" www.law.upenn.edu/journal....Bus.L.1081%282010%29.pdf Were the events following the undoing of Glass-Steagall "Speculative banking"? They sure as heck were; and in fact the big 4 SPECULATORS still hold how many TRILLION dollars worth of notional, SPECULATIVE, derivatives on their books? _______TRILLION.? VxH  posted on  2015-04-18   19:18:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #146. To: Don (#143) the reference is to Satan by using a human King as a symbol. You sure it isn't a reference to the temporal King for which Satan later became a substitute symbol? VxH  posted on  2015-04-18   19:20:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #147. To: VxH (#146) I don't think so. Don  posted on  2015-04-18   19:35:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #148. To: Don (#147) (Edited) Well, evidently others disagree. "It is king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon who embodies the great villain position of Satan in the bible. Our image of Satan is developed from the fall of king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon's evil human pride. The 'Babylon has Fallen!', in the Book of Revelations, is relating to the future fall of secular world dominance in preparation for the coming of Messianic Reign. The dynasty of prideful, world dominant, God authorized, secular world powers, passing from one nation to another over time, initiated from king Nebuchadnezzar, falls at our future Battle of Armageddon. The ‘beast’, and ‘whore of Babylon’, which are cast into hell with Satan, in the future apocalypse, begin with king Nebuchadnezzar. To understand where the Satan/Babylon, who falls in the Book of Revelation is coming from, king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon is ground zero...." www.apocalypseangel.com/morningstar.html I've never been to that web site before, I just googled "is satan nebuchadnezzar".. and that happens to be at the top of the results, and also pretty much in line with my observations and conclusions. I don't buy the Appokeelyptic mumbo jumbo other than that it's a mythology that articulates the cyclical demise of human culture described in Romans 1:25+. For other mythologies regarding Fallen Angels - take a look at the Yazedi of Northern Iraq. Fallen Angels -- or FRAUDS who would be man-god-kings among the superstitious and easily deceived? VxH  posted on  2015-04-18   19:50:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #149. To: VxH, liberator, A K A Stone (#148) "It is king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon who embodies the great villain position of Satan in the bible. Our image of Satan is developed from the fall of king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon's evil human pride. The 'Babylon has Fallen!', in the Book of Revelations, is relating to the future fall of secular world dominance in preparation for the coming of Messianic Reign. The dynasty of prideful, world dominant, God authorized, secular world powers, passing from one nation to another over time, initiated from king Nebuchadnezzar, falls at our future Battle of Armageddon. The ‘beast’, and ‘whore of Babylon’, which are cast into hell with Satan, in the future apocalypse, begin with king Nebuchadnezzar. To understand where the Satan/Babylon, who falls in the Book of Revelation is coming from, king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon is ground zero...." Wow has everything you love to write about done so succinctly. Only thing missing is the reference to Caesarian eunuch priests being thrown in the lake of fire:) "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-18   20:00:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #150. To: redleghunter (#149) Wow has everything you love to write about done so succinctly. That's the beauty of self-evident Truth when free minded Individuals are allowed to pursue it without state-established coercion. VxH  posted on  2015-04-18   20:04:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #151. To: redleghunter (#149) (Edited) Only thing missing is the reference to Caesarian eunuch priests being thrown in the lake of fire:) Quack, Waddle... "The fall of Korah and his band of morning stars being cast into hell gives us the image of 'morning star', 'fallen angel' Lucifer, aka Satan, being thrust into hell. The Book of Jude refers to Korah and his band of morning stars as fallen 'angels'. " Eunuducks. Now who was Korah? "Korah, son of Izhar, son of Kohath, son of Levi [and Dathan and Abiram, sons of Eliab, son of Pallu, son of Reuben] took two hundred and fifty Israelites who were leaders in the community, members of the council and men of note. They stood before Moses and Aaron, to whom they said, "Enough from you! The whole community, all of them, are holy; the LORD is in their midst. Why then should you set yourselves over the LORD's congregation?"." Levites. What a surprise. Num 16:1-2 16 Korah son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and certain Reubenites — Dathan and Abiram, sons of Eliab, and On son of Peleth — became insolenta 2 and rose up against Moses. NIV   Woops there it is! VxH  posted on  2015-04-18   20:09:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #152. To: redleghunter (#149) Only thing missing is the reference to Caesarian eunuch priests being thrown in the lake of fire Num 16:31-35 31 As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them, with their households and all Korah's men and all their possessions. 33 They went down alive into the grave, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community. 34 At their cries, all the Israelites around them fled, shouting, "The earth is going to swallow us too!" 35 And fire came out from the Lord and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense. NIV Sort of like that? VxH  posted on  2015-04-18   21:05:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #153. To: Liberator (#116) Do you believe Revelation? The Gospel? Or for that matter Isaiah or ANY of the Bible? I believe you're more interesting in attacking my faith than you are in discovering the Truth. VxH  posted on  2015-04-18   21:22:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #154. To: misterwhite (#144) the investment banks -- Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns, Goldman Sachs, Citigroup and Merrill Lynch. Prior to the repeal of Glass-Steagall, were COMMERCIAL banks like Wells Fargo and BofA allowed to act like SPECULATIVE Investment banks? VxH  posted on  2015-04-19   1:15:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #155. To: Vicomte13, Liberator (#94) (Edited) Am I to understand this is your theory for the reason for the Vatican's astronomers? It's not a theory. Firstly, I hope Liberator is not confusing astronomer with astrologers. Secondly, the church always had astronomer - but not for the reasons Vic mentioned. astronomy was the only way to reliable know what day of the year it is and that is important to figure out when it is a holy day, etc. This was something all priesthoods did - Jewish Cohen, Persian Magi (who were so knowledgable the word magic comes from their predictive abilities), etc. The official time keeper of the church was the Pope of Alexandria - the modern Patriarch of Alexandria in the Orthodox church and one of his main titles in English translates to "Judge of the Universe" but that just means he is the time keeper - he states when it is Sunday, when it is Easter, etc (he judges that based on the alignment of stars). People forget that there used to be a real practical purpose to studying the movement of the planets - it was the only reliable clock. Pericles  posted on  2015-04-19   2:51:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #156. To: redleghunter, all (#74) Yeah sure, give those kooks a nuke. This says it all. http://www.investors.com/editorial-cartoons/michael-ramirez/748432 Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? tomder55  posted on  2015-04-19   5:01:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #157. To: Pericles (#155) That's true, but it's not really why the pope still has an astronomer. Interestingly, Tycho Brahe's and Kepler's role at the Imperial Court in Prague was Astrologer. Astronomy was a subset of the work of the Astrologer. So, the elliptical orbits of the planets, and the marking of their exact positions that made that possible, was actually performed by ASTROLOGERS, not simply astronomers. History has some funny surprises. The fact that most of the precise recordation of planetary transits of the sun today is performed and recorded by Jesuits in various of their institutions around the world is, likewise, interesting. Liberator suggested that the day has passed when the Pope needs his own scientists, but actually, astronomical sciences today still need the Church to be doing all of this grunt work recordation of things, the steady data stream. Something else: the planets do not really orbit the sun in ellipses. Rather, the sun and the planets all corkscrew around the center of mass of the solar system, which is not usually within the disc of the Sun but outside of it, and the whole system is corkscrewing forward in space in its own orbit about other things. The elliptical model reduces in two dimensions what is in fact a three-dimensional system, and reduces the Sun to a focus of the rotation, but it isn't. Actual reality is different from the models. The models are good enough for everything that we need them for, but they ARE NOT TRUTH. Because they SEEM so precise, and are TAUGHT as the truth, people can be forgiven for believing they ARE the truth. But they are not. They're approximate models. And they're not necessarily explanatory either. This is the hard second step of realization. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-04-19   8:36:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #158. To: VxH (#145) "And what does "separating commercial and investment banking" mean in relation to the down stream flow from Ameriquest/Argent Mortgage's sub-prime sewer system?" Absolutely nothing -- which is my point. Ameriquest was not a commercial bank nor an investment bank nor even a bank. There was nothing to separate. misterwhite  posted on  2015-04-19   9:05:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #159. To: misterwhite (#158) (Edited) What did commercial banks like Wells Fargo and BofA learn, as did others, from the Godfather of Subprime's "revolutionary" enterprise? Were Wells Fargo, BofA, and other commercial banks allowed to engage in SPECULATIVE investment activities prior to the repeal of the GSA? VxH  posted on  2015-04-19   10:37:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #160. To: Pericles (#155) (Edited) >>People forget that there used to be a real practical purpose to studying the movement of the planets People forget lots of things. Deut 4:19 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars — all the heavenly array — do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lord your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. NIV Isa 34:4 4 All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved and the sky rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree. NIV Num 16:1-2 16 Korah son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and certain Reubenites — Dathan and Abiram, sons of Eliab, and On son of Peleth — became insolenta 2 and rose up against Moses. NIV   "became insolenta 2 and rose up against Moses".....and the starry angels fell. VxH  posted on  2015-04-19   10:47:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #161. To: VxH (#159) "What did commercial banks like Wells Fargo and BofA learn, as did others, from the Godfather of Subprime's "revolutionary" enterprise?" When forced by the federal government to issue subprime mortgages, these commercial banks learned to dump them on Fannie and Freddie as soon as possible. "Were Wells Fargo, BofA, and other commercial banks allowed to engage in SPECULATIVE investment activities prior to the repeal of the GSA?" No need to. Prior to the repeal of Glass-Steagall the mortgages they wrote were solid. misterwhite  posted on  2015-04-19   12:41:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #162. To: misterwhite (#161) Prior to the repeal of Glass-Steagall the mortgages they wrote were solid. But after the repeal of GSA, they weren't. When forced by the federal government to issue subprime mortgages, That's a load of manure. Numerous banks and credit unions managed to stay completely out of the subprime market. Others got into it for the same reasons the Investment banks did: GREED. VxH  posted on  2015-04-19   17:55:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #163. To: VxH (#148) Of course others disagree. I don't really mind that. Many think the Holy Bible is nothing but a loose collection of myths and fables. I don't really care about that as there isn't anything I can do about it. When the right time comes, there will be people who will change their mind about those "myths and fables." Hopefully, that time won't be after the cut-off date. Don  posted on  2015-04-19   18:55:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #164. To: Don (#163) How many times does Moses mention Satan by name? VxH  posted on  2015-04-19   19:18:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #165. To: VxH (#162) "But after the repeal of GSA, they weren't" You're confusing that with the implementation of the CRA. Those mortgages weren't solid at all. And when securitized with good mortgages, they totally screwed up the market. "Numerous banks and credit unions managed to stay completely out of the subprime market." Good for them. misterwhite  posted on  2015-04-19   20:44:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #166. To: VxH (#164) How many angels will fit on the head of a pin? Don  posted on  2015-04-19   23:20:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #167. To: tomder55, liberator (#156) "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3) redleghunter  posted on  2015-04-20   17:34:28 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #168. To: Don (#166) Where does Moses refer to Satan by name? VxH  posted on  2015-04-20   21:03:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #169. To: misterwhite (#165) (Edited) You're confusing that with the implementation of the CRA. Nope. CRA was passed decades before the subprime gaming "revolutionized" the market. >"Numerous banks and credit unions managed to stay completely out of the subprime market." Good for them. Uhuh. And good for their customers - Because, unlike the greedy shysters who ended up on the bailout list, they weren't securitizing toilet paper and trying to float/hedge it with derivative turds like their peers did after being allowed to do so by the repeal of GSA. VxH  posted on  2015-04-20   21:10:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #170. To: redleghunter (#167) Too many people today can't think in any type of commonsense. Don  posted on  2015-04-20   22:33:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #171. To: Don (#170) (Edited) Too many people today can't think in any type of commonsense. Common sense like recognizing the fact that Moses never mentions Satan by name. Who/what was Moses used to liberate the people of Israel from? VxH  posted on  2015-04-21   8:21:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #172. To: VxH (#171) Are you trying to say Moses never mentions Satan in the Holy Bible? So? Moses led a very long life. Did you live with Moses in his tent for all of those years? Or, do you have notarized affidavits signed by Moses' closest friends testifying to your claim? What difference does it make anyways regarding your point, whatever it is? Don  posted on  2015-04-21   14:08:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #173. To: VxH (#171) I don't want you to think I don't want to answer your questions, so I will tell you that God used Moses to free the ancient Hebrews from their Egyptian overlords. Don  posted on  2015-04-21   18:10:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #174. To: Don (#173) their Egyptian overlords. Yep. It seems the "satan" Moses was confronted with was, like Nebuchadnezzar, of a temporal nature. VxH  posted on  2015-04-21   21:17:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #175. To: VxH (#174) King Neb. Had nothing to do with the Pharoah of Egypt or Satan having a bad hair day when God got after him. Stay on target, Luke. Don  posted on  2015-04-21   22:53:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #176. To: Don (#175) (Edited) King Neb. Had nothing to do with the Pharoah of Egypt or Satan All three are representative of temporal world power. www.apocalypseangel.com/morningstar.html VxH  posted on  2015-04-21   23:09:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #177. To: VxH (#176) However, they have zero applicability to what we were talking about. Your argument is a Red Herring. Don  posted on  2015-04-21   23:29:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #178. To: Don (#177) "King Neb. Had nothing to do with the Pharoah of Egypt or Satan" FALSE VxH  posted on  2015-04-21   23:59:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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