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Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: Indiana religion law is Jim Crow of our time
Source: Cincinnati.com
URL Source: http://www.cincinnati.com/story/opi ... on-law-jim-crow-time/70617014/
Published: Mar 29, 2015
Author: Ryan Messer
Post Date: 2015-03-29 04:44:12 by Willie Green
Keywords: None
Views: 25522
Comments: 127

The arguments for Indiana’s Religious Freedom Restoration Act arguments are strikingly similar to the arguments for racial discrimination some 50 years ago. Then, the nation debated whether it was right and just for someone to be barred from service at a lunch counter because of the color of his or her skin. Astonishingly, here we are again, having to combat arguments that it should be legal to bar someone from the same lunch counter based on the gender of the person they love.

Let’s tell it like it is: The so-called Religious Freedom Restoration Act is the Jim Crow legislation of our time. Today, African-Americans are protected from discrimination of this kind – and that’s exactly how it should be in the Land of the Free. Alas, LGBT people enjoy no such protection under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act, but at least always had trusted their home state legislatures and governors not to turn on them.

I take this personally because, as of Thursday, my family and I are not protected from discrimination when we visit family and friends in the state of my birth. This is real and wrong and grieves me deeply.

The passage of this discriminatory legislation brings back painful memories in Cincinnati of a charter amendment, commonly known as Article XII, that prohibited City Council from passing any ordinance that would have granted LGBT people equal protection under the law. It was a sorry moment in our city’s history – one in which an entire class of people was singled out for non-protection.

The city’s image was damaged throughout the country, and the economic impact was significant, with conventions being canceled and prestigious companies choosing not to do business in our city. I was a resident of Cincinnati at the time, and the passage of the charter amendment created a cloud over the city that ultimately contributed to my decision to leave. I wasn’t alone. Many people I knew moved to cities that they viewed as more welcoming: Chicago, Atlanta, San Diego. I moved to New York.

Fortunately, the citizens of Cincinnati rediscovered their essential instinct for justice and repealed Article XII, and I moved back as soon as I could. Cincinnati now is seen as one of those welcoming cities – one dramatically different from what it was. Did we fall into the dream that the rest of American had taken that journey with us? If so, we’ve had a rude awakening.

Now I have to question where in Indiana my family can go without discrimination. Can we visit the Indianapolis Children’s Museum? Will a hotel turn us away? Would we be allowed to buy a cupcake at a bakery? If you can, put yourself in our shoes for a moment you can see how unsettling and infuriating this situation is.

Maybe the good people of Indiana will come back to their senses as the good people of Cincinnati did some years ago. While they’re pondering what they’ve done, we Cincinnatians should contact the convention organizers who have announced they will pull their meetings out of Indiana and let them know that they are heartily welcome in the Queen City.

We should work with the business leaders who have decided not to expand in Indiana and let them know that they are very welcome to locate in our Ohio and Kentucky counties. And we certainly should let all the talented Hoosiers who happen to be LGBT know that they are welcome to live, work, love and play here.

Indiana may have lost its sense of justice and good sense for a while but the rest of us understand the human and business cases for diversity and inclusion. Let’s cash in on the progress we’ve made in Cincinnati and elevate our status as a city that welcomes diversity of all kinds and declines to discriminate against any of our citizens.

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#1. To: Willie Green (#0)

are protected from discrimination of this kind – and that’s exactly how it should be in the Land of the Free

LOL, Incredible hypocrisy. Forced political correctness, is not freedom.

Adding coercive government goons just makes a bad situation, even worse. The right to be an ahole, is cherished American civil right.


The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party

"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul

Hondo68  posted on  2015-03-29   5:09:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Willie Green (#0)

The Religious Freedom Restoration Act(RFRA) of 1993 is a federal law aimed at preventing laws that "substantially burden" a person's free exercise of religion. The bill was introduced by then Congressman Chuck Schumer in the House ,and Senators Orrin Hatch and Ted Kennedy in the Senate ,and passed by a unanimous U.S. House and a near unanimous U.S. Senate .It was signed into law by Bill Clinton.

It was ruled constitutional at the Federal level ;but SCOTUS ruled it did not apply at the state level . That is why some states have taken the initiative to pass their own laws.

Specific to the RFRA says that government can't deny free exercise of religion unless there is a compelling government interest ,and it finds the least burdensome way to deny it. “Government shall not substantially burden a person’s exercise of religion even if the burden results from a rule of general applicability".

Like the Federal law and some state laws that have already passed ; the law would have courts apply the standard of “strict scrutiny” when free exercise claims are made, meaning that when someone asks for a religious exemption from a law the government must demonstrate that it has a “compelling interest” in denying that claim, and that it has advanced that interest by the “least restrictive means.” The 3 tests applied are : -the religious belief has to be sincerely held, and not just a pose to make a point.

-the state interest in overriding the religious belief has to be compelling.

- the action taken by the state has to be the least intrusive that still satisfies the compelling state interest.

As an example ;these tests were applied in the Hobby Lobby case involving Obamacare and contraceptives ,and the result was a win for Hobby Lobby.

Now 19 states already have similar laws to what Governor Pence has signed . Some of them are very "blue " states (Illinois ,Connecticut ,Rhode Island ). The question is ,why wasn't the passage of laws in those state subject to the same stink that is going on in Indiana ? Could it be that Pence is a potential Presidential candidate ?

Another 11 states have judicial precedents that constitute a RFRA policy in their courts. RFRA cases have gone favorable to those laws because they don’t protect ad-hoc discrimination on any basis.

No it is not Jim Crow at all . Jim Crow laws compelled businesses to discriminate . Indiana's law like the other 19 laws passed at the state level does not permit discrimination at all ,but would not burden an individual or a business to partake in any way in a religious ceremony they find objectionable . In other words ,a Christian bakery could not deny service because someone was gay. However ,if they did not want to be associated or participate in a gay "marriage" ,they would not be compelled to provide the "wedding " cake.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

tomder55  posted on  2015-03-29   7:18:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: tomder55 (#2)

Indiana's law like the other 19 laws passed at the state level does not permit discrimination at all ,but would not burden an individual or a business to partake in any way in a religious ceremony they find objectionable . In other words ,a Christian bakery could not deny service because someone was gay. However ,if they did not want to be associated or participate in a gay "marriage" ,they would not be compelled to provide the "wedding " cake.

That bears repeating, tomder. Long live the Religious Freedom Restoration Act.

http://www.tedcruz.org

out damned spot  posted on  2015-03-29   7:59:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: tomder55, out damned spot (#2)

In other words ,a Christian bakery could not deny service because someone was gay. However ,if they did not want to be associated or participate in a gay "marriage" ,they would not be compelled to provide the "wedding " cake.

Nor could it be compelled to provide a Jewish wedding cake, nor an African-American wedding cake...
Nor would a so-called "Christian" restaurant/banquet hall be compelled to provide facilities for Jewish or African-American weddings either...
And since the Pope isn't really a true, "born again" Christian, I suppose it would be OK to refuse service to Catholics as well...

Mike Pence is the David Duke of Indiana.

Willie Green  posted on  2015-03-29   8:54:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Willie Green (#4)

African-American weddings

not the same at all. It would be vaguely analogous if the black couple were to ask a white baker for a cake that said 'death to white skin devils'. But either way ,that doesn't measure up to a religious test. Besides the bakers are not refusing to serve gays ;just to participate or be associated with the ceremony they find objectionable .

A better example would be if a Jewish baker were asked to make an anti-Semitic saying on the cake ,or perhaps Swastika armbands on the figurines on the cake ..or if a pro-abortion baker were asked by someone to make a cake that said 'Life begins at Birth '. Could the bakers in these cases be forced to serve those clients ?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

tomder55  posted on  2015-03-29   9:34:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Willie Green (#0)

"Then, the nation debated whether it was right and just for someone to be barred from service at a lunch counter because of the color of his or her skin. Astonishingly, here we are again, having to combat arguments that it should be legal to bar someone from the same lunch counter based on the gender of the person they love."

I agree. Let's not screw around. Let's settle this once and for all.

The nation should debate whether the owner of a private business has the constitutionally protected right to bar anyone from service for any reason.

Refusing someone service at a lunch counter has nothing to do with interstate commerce.

misterwhite  posted on  2015-03-29   9:59:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Willie Green (#0)

"Article XII, that prohibited City Council from passing any ordinance that would have granted LGBT people equal protection under the law."

"Fortunately, the citizens of Cincinnati rediscovered their essential instinct for justice and repealed Article XII"

Uh-huh. And then what did they do? They passed a gay hate-crime law, meaning gays don't get equal protection under the law -- they get special protection under the law.

But, of course, that's OK.

misterwhite  posted on  2015-03-29   10:07:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Willie Green (#4)

Mike Pence is the David Duke of Indiana.

Congratulations, Willie. Rarely do we see this kind of political 180 degree turn-around at any forum. When exactly had you made the decision to become a member of GLAAD, the Black Panther Party, and SPLC??

(Tell the Mother Ship to return the real Willie Green!)

Liberator  posted on  2015-03-29   10:19:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: hondo68 (#1)

Incredible hypocrisy. Forced political correctness, is not freedom.

Adding coercive government goons just makes a bad situation, even worse.

Amen! The Left calls slavery "freedom." And gubmint coercion "tolerance."

Yahoo "News" has been obsessed with hysterically spamming it's readers with practically nothing but GAY! GAY! GAY!! 24/7. Fascist robotic Gay-Stapo trolls have used the interwebs to create a viral backlash against....FREEDOM.Can't make this up.

Liberator  posted on  2015-03-29   10:26:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: tomder55 (#2)

The Religious Freedom Restoration Act(RFRA) of 1993 is a federal law aimed at preventing laws that "substantially burden" a person's free exercise of religion. The bill was introduced by then Congressman Chuck Schumer in the House ,and Senators Orrin Hatch and Ted Kennedy in the Senate ,and passed by a unanimous U.S. House and a near unanimous U.S. Senate .It was signed into law by Bill Clinton....

Thanks for the (ironic) historical backdrop, Tom.

Now 19 states already have similar laws to what Governor Pence has signed.

And are the homo-fascists now going to boycott those states as well??

Some of them are very "blue " states (Illinois ,Connecticut ,Rhode Island ). The question is ,why wasn't the passage of laws in those state subject to the same stink that is going on in Indiana ? Could it be that Pence is a potential Presidential candidate?

Hmmmm....

Liberator  posted on  2015-03-29   10:30:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Willie Green (#0)

Willie. Should a black baker be forced to bake a KKK cake for me?

Then shut up.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-03-29   10:49:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Willie Green (#0)

I take this personally because, as of Thursday, my family and I are not protected from discrimination when we visit family and friends in the state of my birth. This is real and wrong and grieves me deeply.

This faggot should take a gun to his head. Then he wont be miserable. And I won't have to read about some faggot whining about people having rights to not associate with dirty faggots.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-03-29   10:50:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: A K A Stone (#11)

Should a black baker be forced to bake a KKK cake for me?

As long as you actually ate it, sure, why not?

Willie Green  posted on  2015-03-29   10:52:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Willie Green (#0)

13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Religious Freedom Bump Silly Willie.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-03-29   10:52:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Willie Green (#13)

Should a black baker be forced to bake a KKK cake for me? As long as you actually ate it, sure, why not?

So someone from the KKK should be allowed to force a black baker to bake a cake that says "Put The Niggers In Chains"

If you believe that you are a moron.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-03-29   10:54:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: A K A Stone (#14)

7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

NEW Testament bump. (The one that is actually Christian, in case you forgot)

Willie Green  posted on  2015-03-29   11:00:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: misterwhite (#6)

The nation should debate whether the owner of a private business has the constitutionally protected right to bar anyone from service for any reason.

Refusing someone service at a lunch counter has nothing to do with interstate commerce.

misterwhite ,Rand Paul took it on the chin for daring to point out that the Civil Rights laws banned institutional discrimination ....but that laws trampling on freedom of association are unconstitutional ;commerce clause or otherwise.

https://youtu.be/MWBDWU7qES8

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

tomder55  posted on  2015-03-29   11:02:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Willie Green (#16)

NEW Testament bump. (The one that is actually Christian, in case you forgot)

I know that. But what is your point?

Everyone isn't a christian. Some people practice Judaism.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-03-29   11:03:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: A K A Stone (#15)

So someone from the KKK should be allowed to force a black baker to bake a cake that says "Put The Niggers In Chains"

I don't think you'd have to force him...
as long as the Klansman actually ate the cake, I'm sure there'd be plenty of black bakers who would volunteer to bake it for him.

Willie Green  posted on  2015-03-29   11:07:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Willie Green (#19)

I don't think you'd have to force him... as long as the Klansman actually ate the cake, I'm sure there'd be plenty of black bakers who would volunteer to bake it for him.

That is fine if one wanted to back such a cake. But one should never be forced to.

Just like the decent folks who are trying to be forced to bake cakes for Sodomites.

By the way I discriminate. No Sodomites are allowed to post here. Meguro is an example.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-03-29   11:10:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: A K A Stone (#18)

Some people practice Judaism.

Not if they're in the KKK.

Willie Green  posted on  2015-03-29   11:10:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Willie Green (#21)

Some people practice Judaism.

Not if they're in the KKK.

You're confusing my examples. Or I didn't write clearly enough.

They are different examples.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-03-29   11:11:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: A K A Stone (#20)

By the way I discriminate. No Sodomites are allowed to post here. Meguro is an example.

That seems like a good policy. Meguro seemed to be a big part of why LP was a cess pool of flame wars, and LP became a forum for insulting people, while LF is a forum for discussing ideas. Based upon the empirical results the no fag policy creates a more civil atmosphere.

nativist nationalist  posted on  2015-03-29   11:19:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Byelstin (#21)

Some people practice Judaism.

Not if they're in the KKK.

This sounds like a request for the boys in purple robes!

nativist nationalist  posted on  2015-03-29   11:21:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: nativist nationalist (#23)

LF is a forum for discussing ideas

I like that idea.

But truthfully I insult people sometimes.

Less lately.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-03-29   11:22:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: tomder55 (#17)

"misterwhite ,Rand Paul took it on the chin for daring to point out that the Civil Rights laws banned institutional discrimination ....but that laws trampling on freedom of association are unconstitutional ;commerce clause or otherwise."

If the federal government wants to pass Civil Rights legislation, fine. Those laws would only apply to the the federal government.

If any state wants to pass Civil Rights legislation, fine. Those laws would only apply to that particular state government.

But, in my opinion, there is no way any Civil Rights legislation should apply to individuals or private sector corporations. Let the individual (or business) succeed or fail on their decisions.

Rand Paul took it on the chin for for his flip-flop on the Civil Rights Act. In 2010, he said the law gave the federal government too much power in telling business owners what they could and could not do. In May 2012, he told CNN's Wolf Blitzer that he would have voted for the bill in 1964 if he had the chance.

misterwhite  posted on  2015-03-29   11:32:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: A K A Stone (#25)

But truthfully I insult people sometimes.

Less lately.

Every once in a while an idea would get discussed on LP, but it was the exception to the rule. There is a huge difference between what LF is and what LP had become. I recall that the guys who would things down over there mentioned that he had some friends check out LP, and that they were appalled by what they saw.

I had a friend who would look at LP on his own, he did not post, and Meguro was the one in his mind that seem to make the place degenerate. I should have him check out LF and see what he thinks. Without Meguro this is a far more civil atmosphere, Meguro seemed to bring out the worst in people, in addition to its own degeneracy.

nativist nationalist  posted on  2015-03-29   11:35:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: nativist nationalist (#23)

"Based upon the empirical results the no fag policy creates a more civil atmosphere."

Yeah. Now we need to ban the blacks, Hispanics, Jews and liberals from posting, and this forum will be great.

Boring as hell, but really great.

misterwhite  posted on  2015-03-29   11:36:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: nativist nationalist (#27)

"and what LP had become."

There was nothing wrong with LP that a good moderator couldn't have fixed. The inmates took over the asylum.

Actually, LP was a good example of Libertarianism run amok.

misterwhite  posted on  2015-03-29   11:41:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: misterwhite (#28)

Yeah. Now we need to ban the blacks, Hispanics, Jews and liberals from posting, and this forum will be great.

Again, based upon the empirical results. If Murron were not here we would be poorer for her absence, so banning blacks would not make for a better forum, but one of lower value. The ones who turned LP into a cess pool could be identified not by race or religion, but by their deviant lifestyles.

nativist nationalist  posted on  2015-03-29   11:43:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: misterwhite, Y'ALL (#6)

The nation should debate whether the owner of a private business has the constitutionally protected right to bar anyone from service for any reason.

The nation should debate whether the owner of a business licensed to be open to the public has the constitutionally protected right to bar specific classes of people from service for personally biased reasons. ---

-- I'd say no, --- seeing that the owner has agreed to operate his open to the public business under the protection of a license, -- he must serve the public without personal bias.

Refusing someone service at a lunch counter has nothing to do with interstate commerce.

True enough, refusing a class of people service at a lunch counter has nothing to do with interstate commerce, but it has a lot to do with having an open to the public restaurant refuse to serve a specific class of people for specious and biased reasons. -- Reasons that violate our constitutional principles.

tpaine  posted on  2015-03-29   12:02:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: misterwhite (#29)

Actually, LP was a good example of Libertarianism run amok.

That it was. Goldi was of the Hebrew faith; I think the advice Jethro gave to his son-in-law Moses would have served LP very well. If Meguro were here it would have ended up being banned anyway, so Stone's "no fags" rule or Devil Anse would have led to the same point anyway

nativist nationalist  posted on  2015-03-29   12:15:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: misterwhite (#29)

There was nothing wrong with LP that a good moderator couldn't have fixed. The inmates took over the asylum.

Translation:--- Goldie allowed libertarians to post opinions that countered the majority rule agitprop posted by misterwhite and his sycophants.

Actually, LP was a good example of Libertarianism run amok.

Translation:--- The majority rule group couldn't gain control, and misterwhite is still in a snit about it..

tpaine  posted on  2015-03-29   12:19:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: tpaine (#31)

The nation should debate whether the owner of a business licensed to be open to the public has the constitutionally protected right to bar specific classes of people from service for personally biased reasons. ---

-- I'd say no, --- seeing that the owner has agreed to operate his open to the public business under the protection of a license, -- he must serve the public without personal bias.

The tenets of my faith *is" personal, and NOT superseded by a tyrannical gubmint that ignores MY civil rights.

And btw Paine, your opinion on this matter doesn't sound very libertarian to me. It sounds...fascist. Are you now advocating this gubmint has the constitutional right to license our very defecation?? (after all, it IS "business," is it not, because a fee is paid to a sewage utility which "serves the public," correct? )

Moreover, isn't "licensing" and over-regulation (as is proposed in this case) just another way to blackmail, extort, and impose morality upon individuals and businesses that violate the tenets of our faith?

So in your opinion, you're advocating the fascist enforcement Christian bakery should be compelled to bake a pornographic-topped cake? A Jewish bakery a Swastika-top cake?

Nice support of this insanity.

Liberator  posted on  2015-03-29   12:33:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: A K A Stone, Willie Green, tpaine (#11)

Willie. Should a black baker be forced to bake a KKK cake for me?

WELL, gentlemen??

These hypocritical crusading "Rights!!" libertarian jihadists may as well be demanding bakers be compelled to scrawl on a cake, "THE BAKER OF THIS CAKE IS A %$#!@ CHRISTIAN HOMOPHOBE AND RACIST! %$#! YOU!!"

As per the the spirit USCON and Bill of Right, right?

Pffft.

Liberator  posted on  2015-03-29   12:43:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: misterwhite (#28)

Yeah. Now we need to ban the blacks, Hispanics, Jews and liberals from posting, and this forum will be great.

Boring as hell, but really great.

There is no reason why Stone shouldn't have the same rights to cater to whom he wants to post, for the same reasons you support a business owner to not have to cater to a certain type of people.

Meguro is a pickle smooching freak of nature.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-03-29   12:49:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: nativist nationalist, A K A Stone, CZ82 (#27)

I had a friend who would look at LP on his own, he did not post, and Meguro was the one in his mind that seem to make the place degenerate. I should have him check out LF and see what he thinks.

Without Meguro this is a far more civil atmosphere, Meguro seemed to bring out the worst in people, in addition to its own degeneracy.

A agree with your observations.

Meguro was a homofascist and degenerate troll, period. His "job" was exactly to sabotage LP. Speaking of "sabotage"...

I also used to suggest that friends check out LP...only to be aghast at the infamous "canary-in-the-coalmine" yukon turning it into a giant dung-flinging baboon cage. That is why it never grew, and LP could not be recommended.

Liberator  posted on  2015-03-29   12:49:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: misterwhite, nativist nationalist (#28)

Yeah. Now we need to ban the blacks, Hispanics, Jews and liberals from posting, and this forum will be great.

Boring as hell, but really great.

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or disingenuous....

ALL of the above demos could well be the most conservative poster at any of these forums. Homos, NOT so much.

There is a huge difference between trolls whose prime objective is advancing subversiveness and anarchy and crapping all over the forum in order to discredit it. Intellectually honest discourse from different perspectives.

Liberator  posted on  2015-03-29   12:56:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: GrandIsland (#36)

"There is no reason why Stone shouldn't have the same rights to cater to whom he wants to post"

Just offering some helpful suggestions.

Meguro was disruptive because he/she was allowed to be disruptive, turning every thread into a debate about homosexuality. He/she could have been controlled, but wasn't.

misterwhite  posted on  2015-03-29   12:58:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Liberator (#35)

Willie. Should a black baker be forced to bake a KKK cake for me?

CORRECTION: That sentence should read.

Willie. Should a black baker be forced to bake a KKK cake for them.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-03-29   12:59:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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