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Title: Pope Francis attacks 'throw-away' economic globalization
Source:
Reuters
URL Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015 ... -economy-idUSKBN0LW0NZ20150228
Published: Feb 28, 2015
Author: James Mackenzie
Post Date: 2015-02-28 13:54:03 by Willie Green
Keywords: globalization
Views: 12327
Comments: 66
(Reuters) - Pope Francis launched a fresh attack on economic injustice on Saturday, condemning the "throw-away culture" of globalization and calling for new ways of thinking about poverty, welfare, employment and society. In a speech to the association of Italian cooperative movements, he pointed to the "dizzying rise in unemployment" and the problems that existing welfare systems had in meeting healthcare needs. For those living "at the existential margins" the current social and political system "seems fatally destined to suffocate hope and increase risks and threats," he said. The Argentinian-born pope, who has often criticized orthodox market economics for fostering unfairness and inequality, said people were forced to work long hours, sometimes in the black economy, for a few hundred euros a month because they were seen as easily replaceable. "'You don't like it? Go home then'. What can you do in a world that works like this? Because there's a queue of people looking for work. If you don't like it, someone else will," he said in an unscripted change from the text of his speech. "It's hunger, hunger that makes us accept what they give us," he said. His remarks have a special resonance in Italy, where unemployment, particularly among young people, is running at record levels after years of economic recession. The cooperative movement in Italy, whose roots go back to 19th century workers' associations, have long had close ties to the Catholic Church, with credit services, agricultural and building co-ops forming an important part of the overall economy. Pope Francis said they could help find new models and methods that could be an alternative model to the "throw-away culture created by the powers that control the economic and financial policies of the globalized world." Perhaps mindful of a wide-ranging corruption scandal linked to some cooperatives in Rome last year, he attacked those who "prostitute the cooperative name". But his overall message was that economic rationale had to be secondary to the wider needs of human society. "When money becomes an idol, it commands the choices of man. And thus it ruins man and condemns him. It makes him a slave," he said. "Money at the service of life can be managed in the right way by cooperatives, on condition that it is a real cooperative where capital does not have command over men but men over capital," he said.
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#27. To: SOSO (#25)
Laws are about taxation. Morals and principles and even scrupples can not be measured but by deeds in the real world.
If you say so, Rambo. Good night.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Ojo biónico; hasta la vista!
Globalization has done great harm.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Christianity, being a Jewish sect in its early years, naturally inherits the obligation to help the poor, always considered a religious obligation of any Jew. I don't see anything in scripture that tells us to eliminate poverty by redistribution. This is where Rome converts from authentic Jewish and Christian traditions on charity to embrace Marxist dogma. What part of the scriptures that tell Christians not to store up treasures on earth but in heaven does not ring true to this pope? The examples of scripture are of Christians who sell their own belongings to give to the poor, not hoard a bunch of religious artifacts and art to create shrines to which the rubes will go on pilgrimage. Places like the Vatican. The pope should follow the biblical example, not lecture on economic justice and pander to Marxists. Let the pope sell off his art collection and treasures. Then he can lecture us.
Yeah but I don't find that in scripture either. Nor among the writings of the ancient church fathers. They did speak of and admire voluntary holy poverty quite often. There is no personal spiritual merit involved if people give to the poor at gunpoint. At least, not judging by the scripture and writings of the early churches.
Does the Old Testament have any authority?
An obvious leading question. I maintain, as always (and which you already know), that the New Testament is a complete and sufficient scripture to meet all the needs of Christians. In some instances, you must know some details of the Old Testament to understand the NT quotes and references made to Old Testament writings, just as you also need to know the history and culture of the first century Romans, their philosophers, their pagan cults to understand some passages of NT writings. But go ahead and post the essay that you are no doubt composing at this very moment. I will point out that, if the Old Testament's covenant is still in effect in any way, there can be no New Covenant in Christ. Either that temple veil was permanently sundered from top to bottom or it was not so don't waste your keystrokes on Jesuitical arguments that amount to dishonestly trying to have it both ways. Argue your points accordingly.
I don't see anything in scripture that tells us to eliminate poverty by redistribution. This is where Rome converts from authentic Jewish and Christian traditions on charity to embrace Marxist dogma. What part of the scriptures that tell Christians not to store up treasures on earth but in heaven does not ring true to this pope? The examples of scripture are of Christians who sell their own belongings to give to the poor, not hoard a bunch of religious artifacts and art to create shrines to which the rubes will go on pilgrimage. Places like the Vatican. The pope should follow the biblical example, not lecture on economic justice and pander to Marxists. Let the pope sell off his art collection and treasures. Then he can lecture us. Agree 100% with your assessment. And Hollywood has addressed such a notion. I am reminded of this movie: The Shoes of the Fisherman
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
2 Corinthians 9:6-7 English Standard Version (ESV) 6 The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
A NECESSARY question to determine what your prejudices are so that I can speak directly to you, rather than write a lot about things you don't think about.
I will try to make things as simple as I can for you. You do not have a NT without the OT. There would be no need for a NT without the OT. For one thing Man would still be living in the Garden of Eden in total communion with GOd. The sacrifice of Cross would not have been needed. You cannot dismiss the OT as you simply do without bastardizing the NT.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Jesus on every page of Scriptures. The TaNaKh and NT.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Perhaps that's becuase God knew the story from beginning to end before He wrote it.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
They would probably kill any pope that would auction off the Vatican's extensive treasures to help the poor as an act of holy charity.
I don't dismiss the Old Testament. I place it in its proper perspective as historical material and understanding the Old Covenant. But I don't allow the Old Testament and the Old Covenant to invade the proper authoritative place of the New Testament and its New Covenant in my own thinking. The New Testament is preeminent in authority to the Old Testament. The Old Covenant passed away with the renting of the veil in the Temple.
What was the original Covenant with Man? Would that covenant still be in place had not Man dishonored it? The whole reason for the NT, the New Covenant as you refer to it, was Man's breaking of the original Old Covenant. One must look at the whole of the context. Further it serves one's reflection on the matter that all of the Covenants are unilaterally one way, i.e. - made from God to Man. They were not negotiated by Man, much less asked for by Man - including the original Covenant. One cannot understand/appreciate the NT, the New Covenant, without fully understanding and embracing the OT. But if you find comfort in doing so, have at it.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Well, we of course think of various portions of scripture when we think of Christian charity. To me, it would bring to mind the parable of the widow giving her last coins for the poor in Luke 21: 2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites. 3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all: 4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had. Jesus spoke directly of this at other times as well. And one can find accounts among the ancient fathers of wealthy Romans who became members of the early Christian churches and sold off their wealth to donate to the poor. But the popes pay no attention to what Jesus found praiseworthy and even obligatory in those who claim to follow Him. And it is the responsibility of a real Church to set an example on its priorities of charity over hoarding treasures. I find nothing in scripture to commend the notion of building shrines filled with art treasures to attract a big traffic in lucrative The pope commands charity for others but exempts his own vast holdings of treasure from any such redistribution. You aren't supposed to mention what a hypocrite he is to want to hold his hundreds of billions in Vatican assets while demanding that all others should be forced to redistribute their wealth. A tycoon in a dress, preaching poverty but only for others. A poverty pimp in red Prada shoes.
Why do I get the impression that you hold some favored doctrine for which you can find exactly zero support in any New Testament scripture? Otherwise...‹/yawn›
Beats me. Why? And what doctrine would that be?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
In Genesis 41:33-36, God via Joseph gives his advice to Pharaoh to tax and then spend and subsidize the economy in times of recession: ‘Now therefore, let Pharaoh select a discerning and wise man, and set him over the land of Egypt. Let Pharaoh do this, and let him appoint officers over the land, to collect one-fifth of the produce of the land of Egypt in the seven plentiful years. And let them gather all the food of those good years that are coming, and store up grain under the authority of Pharaoh, and let them keep food in the cities. Then that food shall be as a reserve for the land for the seven years of famine which shall be in the land of Egypt, that the land may not perish during the famine.’ In Ex 23:10-11, Lev 25:5-7 God is pro government regulation of industry basically halting commerce for the sake of society. In Deut 15:1-6 and Deut 15:3 from Deut 15:7-11 the Scriptures teach a cancelling of outstanding debt and not just an annulment of the interest on the debt. Jesus was pro taxes: In Matthew 17:24-27 we learn that Jesus did indeed pay taxes: “After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, “Doesn’t your teacher pay the temple tax?” “Yes, he does,” he replied.” In Matthew 22:15-22 we read: “Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. “Teacher,” they said, “we know you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren’t swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are. Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?” But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, “You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? Show me the coin used for paying the tax.” They brought him a denarius, and he asked them, “Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?” “Caesar’s,” they replied. Then he said to them, “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.” When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away. (NIV)” This same incident is also recorded in Mark 12:13-17 and Luke 20:20-26. So the gospels leave no doubt that Jesus taught his followers not only in words, but by example, to give to the government any taxes that are owed. In Romans 13:1, Paul brings further clarification to this concept, along with an even broader responsibility to Christians: “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.” (NIV) Therefore, we can conclude from this verse, if we don’t pay taxes we are rebelling against the authorities established by God. Romans 13:2 gives this warning: “Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.” And finally, regarding the paying of taxes, Paul couldn’t make it any clearer in Romans 13:5-7: “Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.” Jesus was against capitalist banking (Matthew 21:12): Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. Jesus is against markets: John 2:16 “To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father’s house into a market!” Jesus warns the rich against hoarding their money and for giving away their money to the poor: Mark 10:17-25. Warning to Rich Oppressors “Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of [feasting]. You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.”: James 5:1-6 (New International Version)
The Vatican is a hoard of looting. Bling envy is an ugly thing. Don't be hating on the Pope, because prots are mediocre capitalists.
That image does not generally show up for the rest of us because it is from a malware-infested website. Firefox reports it as: This web page at gweem.net has been reported as an attack page and has been blocked based on your security preferences. Attack pages try to install programs that steal private information, use your computer to attack others, or damage your system. Some attack pages intentionally distribute harmful software, but many are compromised without the knowledge or permission of their owners.
If the pope is going to lecture us about our bling, then why is it wrong to ask the pope about his vast hoard of bling? And the wealth created by the capitalist Prots and their postmodern successors is exactly the wealth that the Pope seeks to extort as Primary Poverty Pimp. Cathoicism extended the dead hand of the guilds and the reign of wasteful monarchs until it was abolished by virtue of Protestant arms and the Protestant work ethic. Humbug to this hypocrite pope and his phony lectures on Christian charity. Let him set an example and not merely lecture us.
I wonder what coverage such would get at TOS:)
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Leaving aside the shorter mention of paying poor wages, isn't that a picture-perfect portrait of the popes of Rome and their vast wealth and exalted lifestyle? And this poverty pimp pope is not merely speaking of raising minimum wages as your scripture passage does, he is demanding flat-out Marxist redistributionism, regardless of whether the beneficiary of charity works or not.
And this poverty pimp pope is not merely speaking of raising minimum wages as your scripture passage does, he is demanding flat-out Marxist redistributionism, regardless of whether the beneficiary of charity works or not. I am not Catholic and to me the problem with the Popes is that they became temporal monarchs as well as spiritual leaders - the Popes ruled like kings and lived like kings. There has always been problems with bishops living like princes - which is why the ecumenical councils forbade bishops from being married as they were originally because bishops started to hand down their thrones to their sons. That was solved for the Orthodox by taking bishops from the monastics who lived their later lives away from worldly pleasures. With that said, you can critique the Pope for "do what I say not as I do" but that does not mean what he asks to do is not correct. I really don't see anything in the bible Old or New that is extolling capitalism, wealth or the profit motive way of life.
The OT explains the covenant of Grace. So I agree with what you posted.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Wow Sunday evening and a very active LF. Over 15 pings to look at. But I digress. I think as we walk with the Lord we see need and are confronted with His Holy standard on giving. That has been my experience.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
It's hard to fault your view in any way. Scripture does exalt an inward dwelling Spirit and a willing heart. That said, I don't back down one iota on my all-too-brief observations of the exhortations by and examples of holy charity by Jesus, by His disciples, and by the early church fathers and some well-known accounts of charity by early Roman Christians. (Like Thecla.) : ) There was at least one other account of widespread fame of a young noble Roman couple, fabulously wealthy, who did give up all their possessions in an act of holy charity. I can't recall their names at the moment.
So basically the Pope needs to put up or shut up?:) I think I see the point now:) $how me the money Frankie!
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Well, why exactly should the pope be exempt for his own calls for charity for the poor? It's like hearing Prince Charles make the same bleating noises for redistribution ("foreign aid") to the Third World. You can be damned sure that these popes and figurehead effete princes have no intention that even so much as one pence or lira of their own wealth should be distributed to the Third World.
Frankly, I was kinda wondering how you missed my point. Were my statements about "a tycoon in a dress, preaching poverty but only for others, a poverty pimp in red Prada shoes" just too darned subtle? LOL. No, I think my point really was pretty obvious. Those choice lines might even score an "Amen" from Jack Chick were he to read them.
I think that he thought that you were referring to Elton John.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
LOL I wanted to see how many posts you would use to rake Frank over the coals. Adding in the pasty white Brit royals was a bonus.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Finally, I get a little respect! LOL.
The following link of interest to your discussion with Vic and his comments in return. A piece I am reminded of from way back in my Catholic education in HS. Was difficult to find on the net, but alas have found it. Commentary on a case where a priest is silenced for his work with the poor. From: Dorothy Day Library on the Web at http://www.catholicworker.org/dorothyday/).
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Thank you for posting that. It was a very interesting read that gives good insight into Catholic modes of thought.
The Catholic Worker? LOL, I definitely smell some Reds under that bed! The agrarian socialists versus the radical trade unions and Lenin? I suppose it all meant something back in 1949. You start to think it's mostly about one flavor of poverty-pimping Commie priest versus another flavor of capitalist Big Cathedral priest. But I do see why you were reminded of this piece decades later.
#28. To: Pridie.Nones (#27)
Laws are about taxation.
#29. To: SOSO (#28)
#30. To: TooConservative, Vicomte13 (#20)
#31. To: TooConservative (#24)
The Vatican is a hoard of looting. Maybe Francis should redistribute his own hoard before he lectures others.
#32. To: Pericles, redleghunter (#30)
(Edited)
Globalization has done great harm.
#33. To: SOSO, Pericles, redleghunter (#26)
Touche. But perhaps the Vatican needs a bit of a war chest just in case all of the molestaion cases haven't be yet settled?
#34. To: TooConservative (#33)
#35. To: Vicomte13, redleghunter, SOSO, GarySpFc (#34)
Does the Old Testament have any authority?
#36. To: TooConservative (#32)
Christianity, being a Jewish sect in its early years, naturally inherits the obligation to help the poor, always considered a religious obligation of any Jew.
#37. To: TooConservative (#33)
#38. To: TooConservative (#35)
An obvious leading question.
#39. To: TooConservative, Vicomte13, redleghunter, GarySpFc (#35)
#40. To: SOSO (#39)
#41. To: redleghunter (#40)
Jesus on every page of Scriptures. The TaNaKh and NT.
#42. To: redleghunter (#36)
And Hollywood has addressed such a notion. I am reminded of this movie:
#43. To: SOSO (#39)
You cannot dismiss the OT as you simply do without bastardizing the NT.
#44. To: TooConservative, Vicomte13, redleghunter, GarySpFc (#43)
I place it in its proper perspective as historical material and understanding the Old Covenant.
#45. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13, A Pole, A K A Stone (#37)
6 The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
21 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury. tourists pilgrims. 
#46. To: SOSO (#44)
But if you find comfort in doing so, have at it.
#47. To: TooConservative (#46)
Why do I get the impression that you hold some favored doctrine for which you can find exactly zero support in any New Testament scripture?
#48. To: TooConservative (#32)
I don't see anything in scripture that tells us to eliminate poverty by redistribution.
#49. To: redleghunter, TooConservative, Bling Envy (#31)
The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#50. To: hondo68 (#49)
Reported Attack Page!
#51. To: hondo68 (#49)
Bling envy is an ugly thing. Don't be hating on the Pope, because prots are mediocre capitalists.
#52. To: TooConservative (#42)
They would probably kill any pope that would auction off the Vatican's extensive treasures to help the poor as an act of holy charity.
#53. To: Pericles (#48)
“Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. ... You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of [feasting]. You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.”: James 5:1-6 (New International Version)
#54. To: TooConservative (#53)
(Edited)
“Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. ... You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of [feasting]. You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.”: James 5:1-6 (New International Version) Leaving aside the shorter mention of paying poor wages, isn't that a picture-perfect portrait of the popes of Rome and their vast wealth and exalted lifestyle?
#55. To: SOSO (#44)
One cannot understand/appreciate the NT, the New Covenant, without fully understanding and embracing the OT. But if you find comfort in doing so, have at it.
#56. To: TooConservative, A K A Stone, GarySpFc, liberator (#45)
#57. To: redleghunter (#56)
I think as we walk with the Lord we see need and are confronted with His Holy standard on giving. That has been my experience.
#58. To: TooConservative (#57)
#59. To: redleghunter (#58)
#60. To: redleghunter (#58)
I think I see the point now:)
#61. To: TooConservative, redleghunter (#60)
Were my statements about "a tycoon in a dress, preaching poverty but only for others, a poverty pimp in red Prada shoes" just too darned subtle?
#62. To: TooConservative (#60)
Frankly, I was kinda wondering how you missed my point.
#63. To: redleghunter (#62)
Adding in the pasty white Brit royals was a bonus.
#64. To: TooConservative, Vicomte13 (#60)
(Edited)
#65. To: redleghunter (#64)
#66. To: redleghunter (#64)
Dorothy Day Library on the Web at http://www.catholicworker.org/dorothyday/).
...the agrarian socialists were used by Lenin to help him into power, when the radical trade unions of the cities worked against him.
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