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Religion
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Title: The Two Shall Become One Flesh
Source: First Things
URL Source: https://www.firstthings.com/article ... ne-flesh-reclaiming-marriage-2
Published: Feb 26, 2015
Author: Evangelicals & Catholics Together
Post Date: 2015-02-26 22:04:36 by redleghunter
Ping List: *Religious History and Issues*     Subscribe to *Religious History and Issues*
Keywords: None
Views: 42887
Comments: 194

In the Gospel of St. Mark, the Lord Jesus teaches that “from the beginning of creation ‘God made them male and female.’” He then declares a great and beautiful truth inscribed in creation: “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. So they are no longer two but one flesh” (Mark 10:6–8).

For centuries, Christians have proclaimed these words at weddings, for they express the gift of marriage long recognized by all humanity and acknowledged by men and women of faith: Marriage is the union of a man and a woman. This truth is being obscured, even denied, today. Because of that, the institution of marriage, which is essential to the well-being of society, is being undermined.

As Christians, it is our responsibility to bear witness to the truth about marriage as taught by both revelation and reason—by the Holy Scriptures and by the truths inscribed on the human heart. These age-old truths explain why Christians celebrate ­marriage—the coming-together of a man and woman in a binding union of mutual support—as one of the glories of the human race. Marriage is the primordial human institution, a reality that existed long before the establishment of what we now know as the state.

As the most venerable and reliable basis for domestic happiness, marriage is the foundation of a just and stable society. Yet in our times this institution has been gravely weakened by the sexual revolution and the damage it has done to marriage and the family: widespread divorce; the dramatic increase in out-of-wedlock births; the casual acceptance of premarital sex and cohabitation; and a contraceptive mentality which insists that sex has an arbitrary relation to procreation. In this environment, families fragment, the poor suffer, and children are especially vulnerable and at risk. The decline of marriage culture is evident throughout the world, and where it is evident, the common good is imperiled.

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Poster Comment:

God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. And God blessed them and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply.” (Gen. 1:27–28) Subscribe to *Religious History and Issues*

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#106. To: Pridie.Nones (#82)

US Government is not about morality issues

So if I get a gun. Put ammunition in it. And pull the trigger splattering your brains all over the place.

Then that shouldn't be illegal. Because in the 10 commandments it says thou shall not kill. That would be killing. So according to you that would be a theocracy.

We live in a theocracy because murder is illegal.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-03-06   23:43:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: SOSO (#102)

Now you are putting words in my mouth in a most dishonest way. This really is beneath you. Your Jesuit training is showing. How far up your ass are you willing to go to divert honest discussion about this issue?

It was your bucket list of issues not mine.

You threw together slavery, bigamy, bestiality and drug use. I found it odd you used those examples trying to prove your point that preventing gay "marriage" is violating civil rights.

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-03-06   23:44:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: SOSO (#103)

Figure skating pairs have always been one man with one woman.

Should the Olympic committee be impelled to allow same sex figure skating?

It has been one man and one woman for skating pairs since the beginning. Is that not a good reason to sustain traditional pair skating?

And no. I don't take meds but given the hour it may be time for your warm milk and beddie bye. :)

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-03-06   23:49:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: A K A Stone (#105)

Note the word I actually used- tolerated - not accepted. Please correct your post to me if you wish to further dialogue.

Would you vote for someone who supported same sex marriage.

No. But I might vote for someone that supported gay civil union. I am not a one issue voter.

Would you vote for someone who supported abortion? What about legalized pot?

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-03-06   23:52:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: redleghunter (#108)

It has been one man and one woman for skating pairs since the beginning. Is that not a good reason to sustain traditional pair skating?

Probably so. But that is no reason that men or women pair skating cannot become an Olympic event.

Olympic events come and go. Remember Olympic baseball? And Olympic wrestling may be on the block. Do I need to remind you that marriage was not always one man with just one woman and that it wasn't that way from the beginning?

By you logic only those events that were in the Olympics from the beginning should be allowed and no others.

Sleep tight.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-03-06   23:59:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: redleghunter (#97)

Should the Winter Olympics committee be forced to accept same sex figure skating pairs?

Seems more honest since they're all gay anyway.

Stop forcing those poor women to be their beards-on-ice.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-07   3:29:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: SOSO (#110) (Edited)

Do I need to remind you that marriage was not always one man with just one woman and that it wasn't that way from the beginning?

Well, Drudge reminded us yesterday.



UPDATE: WORLD'S FIRST THREE-GAY MARRIAGE...

And Olympic wrestling may be on the block.

Dump it already. Why should the primary original Olympic sport from ancient times be a part of these phony modern Olympics?

Maybe they'll revive it by going back to full nudity. Or finding a gay wrestling champion to beat the straight wrestlers, like they found the black kid to win the big American golf trophies.

And Bruce Jenner, Wheaties champion extraordinaire, is going full she-male now, decades later.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-07   3:34:44 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: SOSO (#110)

Do I need to remind you that marriage was not always one man with just one woman and that it wasn't that way from the beginning?

In the immortal words of John McEnroe: "YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS!!"

....no reason that men or women pair skating cannot become an Olympic event.

Chyeah. Let's just make an absolute and total mockery of civilization just because you (presumably) have family members who are homosexuals.

Have you been hard at work on your next 4th Grade Primer, 'Heather Has three Daddies'??

Liberator  posted on  2015-03-07   8:36:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: SOSO (#109)

Would you vote for someone who supported same sex marriage.

No. But I might vote for someone that supported gay civil union. I am not a one issue voter.

Would you vote for someone who supported abortion? What about legalized pot?

I would never vote for someone who supports baby genocide. They are evil by definition.

I would possibly vote for someone who supported legal weed.

You say you would support somone who supported gay civil unions. Seems you are playing word games. As above you said gay marriage isn't gay marriage but gay civil unions.

So again would you ever vote for someone who supported what is called here in the United States. "Gay marriage". You know what the Supreme court is deciding. What Obama supports. What fag lover Rob Portman supports in Ohio.

I am a one issue voter. If they are evil I don't vote for them.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-03-07   8:41:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: TooConservative (#112)

Why should the primary original Olympic sport from ancient times be a part of these phony modern Olympics?

I reckon to appease the enlightened secular humanists, moral relativist intellectuals, and spineless wet-noodle "pillars of society."

Maybe they'll revive it by going back to full nudity. Or finding a gay wrestling champion to beat the straight wrestlers, like they found the black kid to win the big American golf trophies.

Nice, yet subtle example of an agenda exposed.

And Bruce Jenner, Wheaties champion extraordinaire, is going full she-male now, decades later.

I think she/it looks lovely. Can't wait for the new Wheaties box and Bruth waving the little rainbow flag while crossing the "Pride" Parade Finish Line in his high heel sandals, sundress, and tastefully applied garish make-up.

Liberator  posted on  2015-03-07   8:44:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: A K A Stone, SOSO (#114)

I would never vote for someone who supports baby genocide. They are evil by definition.

Amen!

You say you would support somone who supported gay civil unions. Seems you are playing word games. As above you said gay marriage isn't gay marriage but gay civil unions.

Ka-CHING!

I am a one issue voter. If they are evil I don't vote for them.

Way to hold the line, Stone. The bad news: Evil has been dumbed-down. Only the feckless, the cowardly, and the deluded support this "gay marriage" charade along with the rest of the now institutional perversion of our culture.

Liberator  posted on  2015-03-07   8:48:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: SOSO, redleghunter, TooConservative (#110)

Do I need to remind you that marriage was not always one man with just one woman and that it wasn't that way from the beginning?

By all means, please do enlighten us on "The Way of The Beginning."

Liberator  posted on  2015-03-07   8:50:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: Liberator (#113)

Do I need to remind you that marriage was not always one man with just one woman and that it wasn't that way from the beginning?

In the immortal words of John McEnroe: "YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS!!"

Check your OT.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-03-07   11:57:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: SOSO (#110)

Do I need to remind you that marriage was not always...

Remind us which of the various historical cultures that normalized homosexual behavior survived doing so?

VxH  posted on  2015-03-07   12:03:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: A K A Stone (#114)

You say you would support someone who supported gay civil unions. Seems you are playing word games. As above you said gay marriage isn't gay marriage but gay civil unions.

I guess you simply cannot understand what I said. I clearly separate the secular aspects of a State sanction civil union from the religious aspects of a church sanctioned marriage.

A church sanctioned marriage is first and foremost a State sanctioned civil union to which the church confers an additional element(s) or meaning SOLELY for the purpose of the members of that church. Whatever additional element or meaning a church may add for the benefit of its members has absolutely no impact of the secular civil union nature of the marriage.

Further the State has no standing in dictating or requiring anything of what the church may wish to add to the religious aspect of the ceremony (as long as it does not include illegal acts, e.g. - sacrificial virgins).

Let's take this one step further. If a church performs a marriage ceremony that is not recognized/sanctioned by the State that marriage has no legal standing in the State. However it may have tremendous standing for the members of that church. On the other hand, a legally performed State civil union type of marriage remains so even if the church refuses to recognize it. Depending on the specific there may be some legal ramifications for the church in certain acts of its denial or refusal to recognize the legalities of the secular State sanctioned union.

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God. I hope this clarifies my position for you. I have been very consistent on it. If not then let's just move on.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-03-07   12:15:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: redleghunter (#97) (Edited)

who are the Olympics committee to deny such.

That remains to be seen.

Religion has obviously failed in response to activist's gender redefinition.

The Olympic domain thus far, not so much.

VxH  posted on  2015-03-07   12:19:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: VxH (#119)

Do I need to remind you that marriage was not always...

Remind us which of the various historical cultures that normalized homosexual behavior survived doing so?

No. I have posted on this before. Do some research. The truth is out there if you can handle it.

But FTR, yours is a totally BS request that has nothing to do with the U.S. Constitution. Perhaps you too wish to trash that document and have the U.S. become a theocracy? Or perhaps you believe that the U.S. should ban interracial marriages or ban marriages other than between white Christians?

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-03-07   12:19:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: SOSO (#122) (Edited)

>>>Remind us which of the various historical cultures that normalized homosexual behavior survived doing so?

No.

Can't provide a single example, can you.

Do some research.

I have - and Nature always has the last laugh over those who abominate it in the context of their Utopian state-establishing quest.

VxH  posted on  2015-03-07   12:21:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: Liberator, redleghunter, TooConservative (#117)

By all means, please do enlighten us on "The Way of The Beginning."

Read the OT, you'll find what you are looking for. You do understand the word polygamy, do you not?

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-03-07   12:21:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: VxH (#123)

Can't provide a single example. Can you.

I provided many on this forum. I am tired of carrying dolts that have nothing to meaningful add to the conversation. Do some research on my posts. You will be made to look very foolish. But if you don't want to believe me, just do a Google search. You will readily find historical examples of cultures that have accommodated homosexual behavior that have survived. There has always been an ebb and flow to human cultures.

But here's a brain buster for you. Name one historical culture that has banned gay sexuality that has survived. Ancient Greece? Or perhaps ancient Rome? Ancient Egypt?

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-03-07   12:28:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: SOSO (#124) (Edited)

You do understand the word polygamy, do you not?

Better than you evidently understand the word zygote. Human evolutionary/reproductive biology obviously isn't your forte.

VxH  posted on  2015-03-07   12:32:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: SOSO (#125)

I provided many on this forum.

Bullshyte.

Ancient Greece? Or perhaps ancient Rome? Ancient Egypt?

Homosexuality was proliferate in all those cultures.

Evidently that's why they're ancient, and not (until recently at least) contemporary.

VxH  posted on  2015-03-07   12:34:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: SOSO (#125)

But here's a brain buster for you. Name one historical culture that has banned gay sexuality that has survived. Ancient Greece? Or perhaps ancient Rome? Ancient Egypt?

That isn't an actual argument. Homosexuality received various treatment in all those cultures over time. The Romans were actually far worse than the Greeks for libertine behavior. The Greeks do not actually deserve their widespread reputation for buggery or even for pederasty which the "queer theorists" have attempted to impose. It is not a true historical view of ancient Greece which was very complex and not uniform between the various Greek Grecian city-states.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-07   12:38:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: SOSO, liberator, TooConservative (#124)

So it is a Wiki handle apparently connected with the ancient Persian empire and its capitol and the Fars province, the homeland of the ancient Persians and of the ancient Persian culture and whose dialect is Farsi, the language spoken in modern Iran.

Sir SOSO, you do err.

What you say above, it was not like that in the beginning:

Matthew 19:

3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”

4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-03-07   13:04:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: SOSO (#94)

homosexuality, not being an illegal state of being or of personal sexual practice, must be tolerated in our society.

What about when homosexuals conspire to appropriate the reproductive resource$ of heterosexuals in order to finance their procreative abomination of nature?

Creating sperm from female stem cells will no doubt be expensive.  

 

"That to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions, which he disbelieves is sinful and tyrannical;"

h ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Statute_for_Religious_Freedom

 

Why should I have to pay for it?

VxH  posted on  2015-03-07   13:10:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: SOSO (#92)

>>Homosexual activists have never increased the fitness of the various cultures they've infested.

Tell that to the U.S. Figure Skating Association:)

How many generations of natural, reproductively viable, offspring have the homosexuals infesting the U.S. Figure Skating Association managed to produce?

VxH  posted on  2015-03-07   13:15:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: redleghunter, liberator, TooConservative (#129)

In the beginning there was no Olympics either. Choose your reference point. I stand by my statement that historically marriage has not always been between on man and one woman, and certainly not too far removed from Adam and Eve.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-03-07   13:34:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: VxH (#131)

How many generations of natural, reproductively viable, offspring have the homosexuals infesting the U.S. Figure Skating Association managed to produce?

I don't know. has anyone been counting. Homosexuals can breed as many in recent memory have publically demonstrated. I hope you are informed enough to know that the act of procreation no longer requires a sexual act between a man and a woman. Perhaps the U.S. should ban artificial insemination and in vitro fertilization?

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-03-07   13:38:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: VxH, SOSO, redleghunter (#131)

How many generations of natural, reproductively viable, offspring have the homosexuals infesting the U.S. Figure Skating Association managed to produce?

You guys keep this up and you're going to receive a strongly worded email from the U.S. Figure Skating Assocation.     : )

My advice: blame Red for starting it.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-07   13:46:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#135. To: TooConservative, VxH, redleghunter (#134)

You guys keep this up and you're going to receive a strongly worded email from the U.S. Figure Skating Assocation. : )

My advice: blame Red for starting it.

My advice: buy a pair of ice skates.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-03-07   13:48:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: SOSO (#135)

You're off to a surly Saturday.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-07   13:52:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#137. To: TooConservative (#134) (Edited)

My advice: blame Red for starting it.

 

 

"According to my opinion, and the opinions of many defectors of my caliber, only about 15% of time, money, and manpower is spent on espionage as such. The other 85% is a slow process which we call either ideological subversion , active measures , or psychological warfare. What it basically means is: to change the perception of reality of every American that despite of the abundance of information no one is able to come to sensible conclusions in the interest of defending themselves, their families, their community, and their country.
 
It's a great brainwashing process which goes very slow and is divided into four basic stages.
 
The first stage being "demoralization".
 
It takes from 15 to 20 years to demoralize a nation. Why that many years? Because this is the minimum number of years required to educate one generation of students in the country of your enemy exposed to the ideology of [their] enemy. In other words, Marxism-Leninism ideology is being pumped into the soft heads of at least 3 generation of American students without being challenged or counterbalanced by the basic values of Americanism; American patriotism.
 
Most of the activity of the department [KGB] was to compile huge amount / volume of information, on individuals who were instrumental in creating public opinion.  Publisher, editors, journalists, uh actors, educationalists, professors of political science.  Members of parliament, representatives of business circles. 
 
Most of these people were divided roughly into two groups:  those who would tow the Soviet foreign policy, they would be promoted to positions of power through media and public manipulation;  [and] those who refuse the Soviet influence in their own country would be character assassinated OR executed physically, come Revolution.  "
--KGB Defector Yuri Bezmenov
-- Soviet Subversion of the Free Press (Ideological subversion, Destabilization, CRISIS - and the KGB)
 

That Red?

VxH  posted on  2015-03-07   14:08:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: SOSO (#133) (Edited)

Homosexuals can breed

Not homosexually.

They have to appropriate resources from others in order to abominate nature and manufacture a zygote.

Why should I have to pay for that?

VxH  posted on  2015-03-07   14:11:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#139. To: SOSO (#133) (Edited)

the act of procreation

The act of procreation doesn't guarantee the sociobiological fitness of the culture in which the act takes place.

That's especially true in the context of a demoralized culture that has taken to worshiping its abominations and creations in defiant disregard of Natural history.

VxH  posted on  2015-03-07   14:18:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#140. To: VxH, redleghunter (#137) (Edited)

      My advice: blame Red for starting it.
That Red?

Uh, no. When I said Red, I meant redleghunter who apparently got this whole figure skating thing started by posting this pic from some crappy SNL comedy named Blades Of Something with Will Farrell:

Since you seem unaware of the movie, you must be punished.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-07   14:19:44 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#141. To: TooConservative (#140)

some crappy SNL comedy named Blades Of Something with Will Farrell:

The fagotry of Will Farrell highlights SNL's continuing influence upon perverting and demoralizing American culture.

SNL and Farrell illustrate the degree to which the process of "demoralization", described by KGB defector Bezmenov, has been a strategic success.

How's Senator Blutarsky the heroin addict doing these days?

VxH  posted on  2015-03-07   14:28:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#142. To: VxH (#138)

Why should I have to pay for that?

Who says that you have to pay for that?

"They have to appropriate resources from others in order to abominate nature and manufacture a zygote."

Are you claiming that babies conceived via artificial insemination or in vitro fertilization are not human beings in God's eye? That they have no soul?

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-03-07   14:33:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#143. To: redleghunter (#107)

I found it odd you used those examples trying to prove your point that preventing gay "marriage" is violating civil rights.

I find it odd that you claim that a State should be able to disregard the Constitution and legalize slavery, bigamy, bestiality and drug use. I particularly find it odd that you say that a State should be able to ban gay civil unions while at the same time allow abortion on demand, including late term abortion.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-03-07   14:40:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#144. To: TooConservative (#136)

You're off to a surly Saturday.

Yeah, I can get that way when people are willfully blind to the conflicts of logic and lack of intellectual honesty of their positions. You know the drill. If one advocates a position based on logic and law the ad hominem accusations flow like water from those that do not want to accept the validity of your argument.

I keep asking the question, under the U.S. Consitution what is the State's legal basis for denying gays the rights and privileges of a state sanctioned civil union that it affords straights? I have yet to get a rational answer other than потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-03-07   14:49:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#145. To: SOSO (#144)

"because God wants it that way"?

The normal explanation is that the state has an interest in promoting the stabilility and security of children in two-parent families.

Given the high divorce rates and rise of solo motherhood, it has become more irrelevant and this did open the door to arguments for marriage equality.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-03-07   15:07:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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