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Title: Ukraine Announces a Growing List of Casualties From Debaltseve Retreat
Source: nytimes.com
URL Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/20/w ... impose-ukraine-cease-fire.html
Published: Feb 19, 2015
Author: DAVID M. HERSZENHORN and ANDREW E. KRAME
Post Date: 2015-02-19 23:12:18 by Pericles
Keywords: Ukraine
Views: 12359
Comments: 33

MOSCOW — The Ukrainian military on Thursday said that the casualties in Debaltseve were substantially worse than initially announced...snip....

In the city of Artemivsk, where Ukrainian soldiers gathered after their retreat from Debaltseve, the harrowing human toll from the recent days of fighting was on vivid display.

Many soldiers were in a demoralized and drunken state. Shellshocked soldiers from the battle in Debaltseve wandered the streets through the day Wednesday, before beginning to drink heavily.

By Wednesday evening, gunshots were ringing out on the central square. One man stood, swaying, on the sidewalk mumbling to himself. Soldiers who had escaped from Debaltseve after weeks of shelling were commandeering taxi cabs without payment. It was not clear that all of them had been given places to sleep, and one group stood silently, shivering on a street outside the Hotel Ukraine.

And at Biblios, an upscale restaurant in Artemivsk, soldiers staggered about in the dining room, ordering brandy for which they had no money to pay, and then firing shots into the ceiling as other guests quietly fled the premises.

...snip...

Highlighting its control over Debaltseve, Russia said on Thursday that it was sending a convoy of humanitarian aid to the town.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 15.

#1. To: TooConservative, A Pole, Vicomte13 (#0)

The Kiev kids who bought the Bandera quasi Nazi fantasies BS paid dearly for it and were used by the West as cannon fodder to bring about its plans in the Ukraine against Russia.

The west knew this route was about to happen which is why we saw the DC foreign policy establishment go ballistic and bellicose on American TV - same thing happened when Syria's Assad govt turned the tables on the so called Free Syrian Army - then you saw McCain call for bombing. The more the west. Obama got to pretend he won in Ukraine for a few weeks but the events on the ground show that Putin is in control of the situation and in the stronger position.

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-19   23:17:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Pericles (#1)

The Kiev kids who bought the Bandera quasi Nazi fantasies BS paid dearly for it and were used by the West as cannon fodder to bring about its plans in the Ukraine against Russia.

I'm wondering about the present composition of the Uke military. We know the regular Uke army at the beginning of the conflict generally refused to attack their fellow-citizens with lethal force. So they called out the neo-Nazi "volunteer battalions" from the Lviv oblast. And it was the neo-Nazi element that really perpetrated the massacres of civilians in east Ukraine. As they pressed eastward and most of the civilian population fled, there was a rotation of Russian officers who just happened to choose to spend a week or two of vacation time in eastern Ukraine. The results were dramatic. The regular Uke army units that hadn't massacred were spared but they wiped out every neo-Nazi they could find and took no prisoners. Now it seems the Russians are no longer vacationing and the rebels are more standalone. In the meantime, Kiev has implemented a draft and eligible men have fled the draft, something that Western media never reports. Apparently draft-dodging is rampant in Ukraine with some areas having more than half the men fled or in hiding. You know, Transnistria is lovely in the spring if you happen to live in Odessa.     : )

I wonder how many of the neo-Nazis in the "volunteer battalions" have survived and just how many of the new recruits to the regular Uke army are willing to fire on fellow-citizens, via artillery or house-to-house fighting.

Reporting was too inconsistent to get a lot of facts six months ago. Now it is even harder to get good reporting on Ukraine. Apparently, the facts on the ground no longer matter much to anyone.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-20   5:58:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: TooConservative (#2)

I'm wondering about the present composition of the Uke military.

I don't think the Uke military proper is involved in this fight excpet maybe as logistics? Artillery? I don't even hear the airforce being used by Kiev.

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-20   10:06:32 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Pericles (#3)

I decided to just post the AP story about the happy Cossacks. It has quite a bit of info about the battle for the town and rail head.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-20   10:32:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: TooConservative (#6)

I decided to just post the AP story about the happy Cossacks. It has quite a bit of info about the battle for the town and rail head.

I saw that. The problem I have is the western media reports as if everyone is Ukrainian or that Russians live inside a Ukrainian homeland as a minority - like Hungarians living in the Ukraine. Their really is no true monolithic Ukrainian ethnic identity. The Ukraine just is the name of the geography between the empires of the Russians, Ottomans, Austro-Hungarians and Baltic- Poles. That is what Ukraine means = borderland in rough English translation.

The Bandera's are one of these 19th century groups and mindests that try to link to some fabled past but try and take the ethnic populations living inside the borders and force them to become this new standardized ethnicity. Many Europeans in that part of the world are guilty of it, Greeks did it to the Vlachs, etc. That is what these modern Banderistas want to do to all the Slavs inside of Ukraine and force them into a template.

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-20   12:27:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Pericles (#7) (Edited)

That is what these modern Banderistas want to do to all the Slavs inside of Ukraine and force them into a template.

Actually, they want to kill or expel the Russian minority in the east. They also want to knock off Russia's regime, much as they attempted to do so in Belarus some years back, one of the failed Soros colour revolutions.

People don't seem to realize how many of these phony "revolutions" have been staged or attempted over the decades since the Cold War ended.

I saw a bit of FNC's coverage of the anniversary of the Maidan massacre. They tried to hype it but it was clear there were less than 200 total people present to commemorate Maidan only a year later. Then they tried to cover the return of the defeated troops returning from Debaltsevo as receiving a "hero's welcome" but there were maybe 20 people total.

It was kinda laughable.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-20   16:03:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: TooConservative (#8)

Actually, they want to kill or expel the Russian minority in the east. They also want to knock off Russia's regime, much as they attempted to do so in Belarus some years back, one of the failed Soros colour revolutions.

My wife is half Russian and half Ukrainian, and she said the posts on this board are nonsense.

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-21   13:42:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 15.

#18. To: GarySpFC (#15)

My wife is half Russian and half Ukrainian, and she said the posts on this board are nonsense.

If she doesn't know about the attempted coup against Belarus (which resulted in a closing of that society to the West), then she isn't very well informed. Maybe she doesn't keep track of Soros and his various plots.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-21 16:52:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 15.

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