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Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: Franklin Graham: Secularists have taken control of America
Source: One News Now
URL Source: http://www.onenewsnow.com/culture/2 ... -have-taken-control-of-america
Published: Feb 4, 2015
Author: Michael F. Haverluck
Post Date: 2015-02-13 14:14:58 by redleghunter
Keywords: None
Views: 44875
Comments: 154

Addressing the crowd at the Oklahoma State Evangelism Conference last week, world-renowned evangelist Franklin Graham admittedly took a different spin than his iconic father, Billy Graham, on the podium and criticized America, declaring that "secularists have taken control of our country."

The president of the Billy Graham Evangelist Association admonished believers in America for standing by while godless, democratically appointed government officials rip the Christian foundation of the country out from under them.

"Our country has changed, and we've got to take a stand," Graham exhorted the Oklahoma City crowd, according to The Christian Post. "We live in a secular society led by people that call themselves progressives. Secularists … have taken control of our country. And we have just sat back and it's happened. And we haven't even realized it's happened."

Not my father's world

Graham then said that he is not afraid to talk about many of the issues his father didn't typically address and critique, noting that the bulk of the senior Graham's ministry took place during a time before American society thoroughly divorced itself from God. He explained how Billy Graham's school days weren't riddled with fears that students would be punished for handing out Christian literature, forming Bible clubs or leading organized prayer.

"Well, you say, 'Now Franklin, you father wouldn't get onto these subjects,'" insinuated Graham, who is also the president of Samaritan's Purse, a nonprofit Christian humanitarian organization. "Wait a second … My father, when he was going to school, they had a Bible in school. When he was going to school, they had the Ten Commandments on the wall. When he was going to school, you could pray in school, and the teachers would lead in those prayers."

Since his father, the 92-year-old Billy Graham, grew up decades before God, Bible reading and prayer were removed from the public schools in 1963 — which is also the year that evolution replaced creation as the dominant teaching about the origins of man and the universe — the younger 62-year-old Graham argues that the changed times call for him to speak on the many moral issues that Christians now face on a daily basis.

"The secularists and the humanists … you mention the name of Christ, they jump all over you," Graham contended. "I get jumped on all the time. I don't really care."

Secularization infiltration

Graham went on to argue that the secularization of society has long since extended beyond the schoolhouse gate, infiltrating virtually every facet of American society.

Graham

"It's all over the country," Graham insisted. "You have the secularists and the humanists who are wanting to deny that Jesus ever existed."

Billy Graham's son then talked about the ironic twist that came about in the late 1980s and early 1990s — a time when the Cold War ended and hearts went cold to God, as secularism, socialism and communism entered into American education, society and politics full force.

"When the Berlin wall came down, everybody said: 'We won,'" Graham remembered. "And secularism came. And secularism and communism are the same thing. They're godless. They're antichrist."

Only One hope, not 12

Graham argues that America is not what it used to be, as it has turned its back on the Christian principles upon which it was founded. And as another presidential election draws near, he contends that conservative politicians aren't the answer.

"America has changed and it's not coming back unless the Church takes a stand," Graham insisted. "Now I'm not talking about Baptists or Republicans or Tea Party … I have no confidence that any of these politicians or any party is going to turn this country around."

In the midst of the current political frenzy taking place, with a dozen conservative prospective candidates promising that they can turn America around from its godless, destructive path, Graham promises that no politician can deliver the country from falling apart.

"There is only one who can save — only one … Jesus," Graham added. "You see, Jesus is in the boat. All we have to do is call Him, call on His name."

As godless policies and laws continue to work their way into American society — from God being ousted from the public schools in 1963, to Roe v. Wade ushering in legalized abortion in 1973, to the floodgate of same-sex "marriage" opening in 2004, to the normalization of homosexual behavior in the military in 2011 — Graham warns that America will be judged for its disobedience and repudiation of God's Word.

"There are storms that are coming," Graham foretold. "The only hope for this country is for men and women of God to stand up and take a stand."

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#1. To: liberator, *Religious History and Issues* (#0)

Ping

"For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb." (Psalm 139:13)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-13   14:15:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: redleghunter (#0) (Edited)

Franklin Graham is certainly a chip off the old block. Beginning in 1963, America began swirling down the ol' crapper. The Blame: Moral relativism promoted by institutional Secular Humanism. The day it displaced America's traditional, institutional Judeo-Christian views and virtues was the day the subversive cultural/political time-bomb began ticking.

Those storms promised by Graham are already upon us, only to get worse. MUCH worse. Bad is the new "Good." God will not be mocked for long.

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   14:40:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: redleghunter (#0)

What does Junior Graham think Thomas Jefferson had in his Free Mind?

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   15:05:41 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: VxH (#3)

Liberals - libertarians control the language - mind - culture - politics ...

secularism - pluralism - is founding fathers - Christianity - really good ---

diversity - fascism - atheism - satanism is brave new world neocommunism !

If you ... don't use exclamation points --- you should't be typeing ! Commas - semicolons - question marks are for girlie boys !

BorisY  posted on  2015-02-13   15:17:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: BorisY (#4)

So Thomas Jefferson was a liberal?

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   15:50:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: VxH (#5)

a mud wrestle match ... with a machine --- in your mind !

no thanks !

If you ... don't use exclamation points --- you should't be typeing ! Commas - semicolons - question marks are for girlie boys !

BorisY  posted on  2015-02-13   16:12:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: BorisY (#6) (Edited)

Well

I
HAVE SWORN UPON THE ALTAR OF GOD
ETERNAL HOSTILITY AGAINST EVERY FORM OF TYRANNY
OVER THE MIND OF MAN
!!!!!!!!!!!

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   16:15:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: VxH (#7)

secularism - pluralism - is founding fathers - Christianity - really good

If you ... don't use exclamation points --- you should't be typeing ! Commas - semicolons - question marks are for girlie boys !

BorisY  posted on  2015-02-13   16:17:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: BorisY (#8) (Edited)

American History - not - BorisY's - Forte.

Orthodox - Oprichniki - need - new - disinformation - propaganda - techniques

!!!!!!!

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   16:18:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: VxH (#9)

Keywords: wailing gnashing teeth, wailing gnashing teeth, wailing gnashing teeth

#119. To: Destro (#118)

I really don't understand how liberals use trivia to operate a monstrous political reality eating machine !

Hopefully it will swallow them up 1st !

byeltsin posted on 2008-10-25

Divine intervention - deliverance - peace !

#1. To: All (#0)

dieversity = dialectical - dematerialism !

(( self correcting problem ))

When the end of time machine turns on -

the wheat separated from the chaff -

just being on the compost pile -

the dead feel nothing now - then -

the machine begins to shut down -

the compost comes back to life -

all fizziled out souls have a spark of eternity -

that get dematerialized - blown out -

they should think about that one !

countdown - the warning light is blinking !

byeltsin posted on 2015-01-11

If you ... don't use exclamation points --- you should't be typeing ! Commas - semicolons - question marks are for girlie boys !

BorisY  posted on  2015-02-13   16:29:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: VxH (#3) (Edited)

What does Junior Graham think Thomas Jefferson had in his Free Mind?

Simply?

Franklin Graham can clearly see -- as do I -- that TJ is reinforcing his freedom to worship is he pleases, without state coercion. Should that be news to Graham or anyone else?

Graham merely notes that the religion of Secular Humanism has replaced the Bible-inspired, traditional standard American values, virtue, morals and ethics. AT WHAT COST? Have we now more liberty and rights and freedom, OR less since 1963? Since 1974? Since 9/11? Since "gay marriage" made a mockery of right & wrong?

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   16:36:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: BorisY (#10)

When the end of time machine turns on -

the wheat separated from the chaff -

just being on the compost pile -

the dead feel nothing now - then -

the machine begins to shut down -

the compost comes back to life -

all fizziled out souls have a spark of eternity -

that get dematerialized - blown out -

they should think about that one !

countdown - the warning light is blinking !

I must say -- you've made this haiku very eloquent.

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   16:40:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: redleghunter, ALL (#0)

"The secularists and the humanists … you mention the name of Christ, they jump all over you," Graham contended. "I get jumped on all the time. I don't really care."

Jesus was very emphatic, you either love or hate Him. The consequences of making the wrong choice have been seen in many great civilizations that have fallen in a very short time.

Look at the cities of the past. There is Babylon. It is said to have been founded by a queen named Semiramis, who had two millions of men at work for years building it. It is nothing but dust now. Nearly a thousand years ago, a historian wrote that the ruins of Nebuchadnezzar’s palace were still standing, but men were afraid to go near them because they were full of scorpions and snakes. That is the so thought invincible city which fell in one night.

Nineveh is gone. Its towers and bastions have fallen.

The traveler who tries to see Carthage cannot find much of it. Corinth, once the seat of luxury and art, is only a shapeless mass.

Ephesus, long the metropolis of Asia, the Paris of that day, was crowded with buildings as large as the capitol at Washington.

It looks more like a neglected graveyard now than anything else.

Granada, once so grand, with its twelve gates and towers, is now in decay.

The Alhambra, the palace of the Mohammedan kings, was situated there. Little pieces of the once grand and beautiful cities of Herculanæum and Pompeii are now being sold in the shops for relics.

Jerusalem, once the joy of the whole earth, is but a shadow of its former self.

Thebes, for thousands of years, up almost to the coming of Christ, among the largest and wealthiest cities of the world, is now a mass of decay.

But little of ancient Athens, and many more of the proud cities of olden times, remain to tell the story of their downfall. God drives his plowshare through cities, and they are upheaved like furrows in the field. “Behold,” says Isaiah, “the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance; behold, He taketh up the isles as a very little thing.… All nations before Him are as nothing; and they are counted to Him less than nothing, and vanity.”

See how Antioch has fallen. When Paul preached there, it was a superb metropolis. A wide street, over three miles long, stretching across the entire city, was ornamented with rows of columns and covered galleries, and at every corner stood carved statues to commemorate their great men, whose names even we have never heard. These men are never heard of now, but the poor preaching tent- maker who entered its portals stands out as the grandest character in history. The finest specimens of Grecian art decorated the shrines of the temples, and the baths and the aqueducts were such as are never approached in elegance now. Men then, as now, were seeking honor, wealth and renown, and enshrining their names and records in perishable clay.

Within the walls of Antioch, we are told, were enclosed hills over seven hundred feet high, and rocky precipices and deep ravines gave a wild and picturesque character to the place of which no modern city affords an example. These heights were fortfied in a marvelous manner, which gave to them strange and startling effects. The vast population of this brilliant city, combining all the art and cultivation of Greece with the levity, the luxury and the superstition of Asia, was as intent on pleasure as the population of any of our great cities are to-day. The citizens had their shows, their games, their races and dancers, their sorcerers, puzzlers, buffoons and miracle-workers, and the people sought constantly in the theaters and processions for something to stimulate and gratify the most corrupt desires of human nature. This is pretty much what we find the masses of the people in our great cities doing now.

Antioch was even worse than Athens, for the so-called worship they indulged in was not only idolatrous, but had mixed up with it the grossest passions to which man descends. It was here that Paul came to preach the glad tidings of the Gospel of Christ; it was here that the disciples were first called Christians, as a nickname; all followers of Christ before that time having been called “saints” or “brethren.” As has been well said, out of that spring at Antioch a mighty stream has flowed to water the world. Astarte, the “Queen of Heaven,” whom they worshiped; Diana, Apollo, the Pharisee and Saducee, are no more, but the despised Christians yet live. Yet that heathen city, which would not take Christianity to its heart and keep it, fell. Cities that have not the refining and restraining influences of Christianity well established in them, seldom do amount tmuch in the long run. They grow dim in the light of ages. Few of our great cities in this country are a hundred years old as yet. For nearly a thousand years this city prospered; yet it fell.

Our future has been written in the past, and pride goes before the fall.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-13   16:53:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: GarySpFC (#13)

Gary, thanks for that overview and sobering reminder that all man's glory is fleeting and temporary.

(Yes, and the Kardashians WILL one day never be thought of again :-)

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   17:10:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Liberator (#11) (Edited)

Should that be news to Graham or anyone else?

It would be news to anybody who received their indoctrination from the Focus on the Family farce, or their revisionist kinsmen down in Texas who tried to write Thomas Jefferson out of American history.

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   17:12:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Liberator (#12)

Read between the lines ...

what it doesn't say -

don't waste your time - breath - tears -

God wills that none suffer - perish -

it's their own irreversible fate - decision ---

they happily - carelessly choose it !

If you ... don't use exclamation points --- you should't be typeing ! Commas - semicolons - question marks are for girlie boys !

BorisY  posted on  2015-02-13   17:12:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: BorisY (#16)

How many times can a single moment be divided?

There's your eternity.

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   17:16:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: All (#13)

The Closing of the Golden Gate. The Golden Gate is the eastern gate of Jerusalem, through which Christ made his triumphal entry on Palm Sunday before his crucifixion (Matthew 21). Ezekiel 44:2 predicted that it would be closed one day, and not reopened until the Messiah returned: “The LORD said to me, ‘This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it.’ ”

In 1543 Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent closed the gate and walled it up as Ezekiel had predicted. He had no idea he was fulfilling prophecy. He simply sealed it because the road leading to it was no longer used for traffic. It remains sealed to this day exactly as the Bible predicted, waiting to be reopened when the King returns. The Muslims thought by sealing the gate and planting a cemetery in front of the gate it would stop Christ from returning again. http://www.biblewalks.com/Sites/GoldenGate.html

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-13   17:23:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: All (#18)

Oh, I forgot to include the Destruction of Tyre. Tyre, an important sea port in the Eastern Mediterranean, was one of the great cities of the ancient world. It was a heavily fortified and flourishing city. Built on both the mainland and an island, with the island city protected by 300 foot high walls.

Yet Ezekiel 26:3–14 predicted her doom and entire demolition hundreds of years in advance, declaring: “This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock. Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishing nets. . . . They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea. . . . I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishing nets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.” This prediction was partially fulfilled when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the city and left it in ruins. However, the stones, dust and timber were not thrown into the sea. Then Alexander the Great attacked the seemingly impregnable Island of Tyre by taking the stones, dust, and timber from the ruined mainland city and building a causeway to the Island. Not only has the city never been rebuilt; today it literally is used as a place “to spread fishing nets.”

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-13   17:42:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: VxH (#15)

Focus on the Family farce

You may a quibble or two regarding some of the tenets, but WHAT exactly is "farcical" about the 'Focus on the Family'?

Which of the Six Pillars of their Mission Statement do you oppose? And why?

Mission Statement:

To cooperate with the Holy Spirit in sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ with as many people as possible by nurturing and defending the God-ordained institution of the family and promoting biblical truths worldwide. Vision:

Redeemed families, communities, and societies worldwide through Christ.

Guiding Principles:

Since Focus on the Family's primary reason for existence is to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ through a practical outreach to homes, we have firm beliefs about both the Christian faith and the importance of the family. This ministry is therefore based upon six guiding philosophies that are apparent at every level throughout the organization. These "pillars" are drawn from the wisdom of the Bible and the Judeo-Christian ethic, rather than from the humanistic notions of today's theorists. In short, Focus on the Family is a reflection of what we believe to be the recommendations of the Creator Himself, who ordained the family and gave it His blessing.

The six pillars include:

The Preeminence of Evangelism

We believe that the ultimate purpose of life is to know and glorify God and to attain eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, beginning within our own families and then reaching out to a suffering humanity that needs to embrace His love and sacrifice.

"He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.'" Mark 16:15

The Permanence of Marriage

We believe that the institution of marriage is a sacred covenant designed by God to model the love of Christ for His people and to serve both the public and private good as the basic building block of human civilization. Marriage is intended by God to be a thriving, lifelong relationship between a man and a woman enduring through trials, sickness, financial crises and emotional stresses. Therefore, Christians are called to defend and protect God's marriage design and to minister in Christ's name to those who suffer the consequences of its brokenness.

"'Haven't you read,' He replied, 'that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.'" Matthew 19:4-6

The Value of Children

We believe that children are a heritage from God and a blessing from His hand. Parents are therefore accountable to Him for raising, shaping and preparing them for a life of service to His Kingdom and to humanity.

"Has not the Lord made them [a husband and wife] one? In flesh and spirit they are His. And why one? Because He was seeking godly offspring." Malachi 2:15 The Sanctity of Human Life

We believe that human life is created by God in His image.

It is of inestimable worth and significance in all its dimensions, including the preborn, the aged, the mentally disabled, those deemed unattractive, the physically challenged, and every other condition in which humanness is expressed from the single cell stage of development to natural death. Christians are therefore called to defend, protect, and value all human life.

"For You created my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully made." Psalm 139:13-14a The Importance of Social Responsibility

We believe that God has ordained the social institutions of family, church, and government for the benefit of mankind and as a reflection of His divine nature.

Therefore, Christians are called to support these institutions, according to God's design and purpose, and to protect them against destructive social influences. Such involvement is in obedience to Christ's lordship over all creation and is required by His command to care for the well-being of all people.

"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh." Genesis 2:24

"And God placed all things under His feet and appointed Him to be head over everything for the church, which is His body." Ephesians 1:22-23a

"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." Romans 13:1

The Value of Male and Female

We believe that God created humans in His image, intentionally male and female, each bringing unique and complementary qualities to sexuality and relationships. Sexuality is a glorious gift from God to be offered back to Him either in marriage for procreation, union and mutual delight or in celibacy for undivided devotion to Christ. Christians are called to proclaim the truth and beauty of God's design and the redemption of sexual brokenness in our lives and culture through Jesus Christ.

"Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God – this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is – His good, pleasing and perfect will." Romans 12:1-2

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   17:57:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: VxH (#15)

Their [Focus on the Family] revisionist kinsmen down in Texas who tried to write Thomas Jefferson out of American history.

Is Thomas Jefferson your god? Why the obsession on him?

How did they "write Jefferson out of American history"? Citation please.

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   18:00:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: BorisY (#16)

Read between the lines ...

what it doesn't say -

don't waste your time - breath - tears -

God wills that none suffer - perish -

You just lost me; Are you now intimating that after our mortal physical shell passes on, that EVERY soul neither dies or suffers as a result of Judgement?

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   18:03:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: All (#19)

The Doom of Edom (Petra). Unlike many Old Testament predictions of doom, Edom was not promised any restoration, only “perpetual desolation.” Jeremiah wrote in 49:16–17: “ ‘The terror you inspire and the pride of your heart have deceived you, you who live in the clefts of the rocks, who occupy the heights of the hill. Though you build your nest as high as the eagle’s, from there I will bring you down,’ declares the Lord. ‘Edom will become an object of horror; all who pass by will be appalled and will scoff because of all its wounds.’ ”

Given the virtually impregnable nature of the ancient city carved out of rock and protected by a narrow passage way, this was an incredible prediction. Yet, in A.D. 636 it was conquered by Muslims and stands deserted but for tourist and passers by.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-13   18:08:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: All (#23)

Daniel 2:37–42: The Succession of Great World Kingdoms. An amazing prediction in the Bible is the succession of the world empires of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome by Daniel. Interpreting the metallic man in the dream of King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, he told Nebuchadnezzar”: ‘You, O king, are the king of kings. . . . You are that head of gold. After you, another kingdom will rise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others’ ” (Dan. 2:38–40).

So precise and accurate is this prophecy that even negative critics agree that Daniel spoke in order of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. Critics try to avoid the supernatural nature of the prophecy by claiming these words were written after the fact, in about 165 B.C. But there is no real substantiation for this claim.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-13   18:11:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Liberator (#20)

Are they still asserting that America's founders intended this to be a Christian nation?

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   18:36:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Liberator (#21)

Is Thomas Jefferson your god?

Nope, but he's the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.

Why the obsession on him?

Because his American ideals should be conserved. And that's not obsessive, it's Conservative.

How did they "write Jefferson out of American history"?

www.google.com/#q=Texas+Curriculum+Jefferson

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   18:41:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: VxH, Liberator (#25)

Are they still asserting that America's founders intended this to be a Christian nation?

“Should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school book? Its morals are pure, its examples, captivating and noble. In no book is there so good English, so pure and so elegant; and by teaching all the same book, they will speak alike, and the Bible will justly remain the standard of language as wellas of faith.” Fisher Ames: Author of the First Amendment

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-13   18:42:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: VxH (#26)

How did they "write Jefferson out of American history"?

We didn't! Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists was never included in the Constitution or The Bill of Rights. It was simply a tool for Secularists to gain power by misusing the power of the courts.

"Christianity becomes not merely an auxiliary, but a guide, to the law of nature; establishing its conclusions, removing its doubts, and elevating its precepts." Joseph Story, "The Value and Importance of Legal Studies," a lecture delivered August 25, 1829 at his inauguration as Dane Professor of Law in Harvard University, cited in James McClellan, Joseph Story and the American Constitution (Norman, OK: University of Oklahoma, 1971), p. 66. Story served as Associate Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court from 1811-1845, and founded the Harvard Law School.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-13   18:53:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: GarySpFC (#28) (Edited)

We didn't!

Liar Liar.

"Before approving the standards on Friday, board members adopted scores of additional changes - including the restoration of Thomas Jefferson's name to a list of political philosophers that students will study in world history. Board members had come under criticism for removing Jefferson's name earlier this year though they pointed out that Jefferson would still be studied in other areas of the curriculum such as U.S. history and government."
www.dallasnews.com/news/e...ucation-approves-9206.ece

What do "Remove" and "Restore" mean?

Ooops!

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   19:10:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: GarySpFC (#27) (Edited)

What was the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom, and who Authored that - along with primary authorship of the Declaration of Independence?

Let's see what he had to say:

"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination."

--Thomas Jefferson

http://www.google.com/#q=Christian+and+Mahometan%2C+the+Hindoo%2C+and+Infidel+of+every+denomination

What does "the insertion was rejected by a great majority," mean?

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   19:19:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: VxH (#25) (Edited)

Are they [Focus on the Family'] still asserting that America's founders intended this to be a Christian nation?

In governance or in our morals, ethics, and values?

I hope you're not asserting that Focus on the Family believes the USA ought to be a "Theocracy." Because that would be a crock.

Btw, I'm still trying to learn why your consider the 'Focus on the Family' a "farce." If you can find a better example of citizenship tenets, I'm all ears.

Q: In your opinion, is the United States of America better off abiding in their "Six Pillars," or with the way things are at the moment?

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   19:48:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Liberator (#31) (Edited)

In governance or in our morals, ethics, and values?

"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination."

--Thomas Jefferson

Where does Focus on the Family articulate that historical FACT?

www.google.com/#q=Christi...del+of+every+denomination

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   19:58:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Liberator (#31)

 

Your search - Thomas Jefferson "Virginia Act" site:www.focusonthefamily.com - did not match any documents.

Suggestions:

  • Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
  • Try different keywords.
  • Try more general keywords.
  • Try fewer keyword

https://www.google.com/search?q=Thomas+Jefferson+site%3Awww.focusonthefamily.com&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=Thomas+Jefferson+%22Virginia+Act%22+site:www.focusonthefamily.com

 


What does this mean?

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   20:00:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: VxH, GarySpFC (#26)

He's [Jefferson] the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.

And he had several FF authors review several drafts. That makes him a co-author of an outline and idea that numerous other FFs contributed to, logistically facilitated, or sacrificed for.

Why the obsession on him?

Because his American ideals should be conserved. And that's not obsessive, it's Conservative.

But the ideal of "America" are a collaborative effort. Jefferson is merely on wheel in the cog. Truth is, NO USA would ever have been established were all the Founders TJ's brand of Deism. ONLY because the majority of Founders were Christian, wwas this collaboration able to take place.

How did they "write Jefferson out of American history"?

www.google.com/#q=Texas+Curriculum+Jefferson

AUSTIN, Tex. — After three days of turbulent meetings, the Texas Board of Education on Friday approved a social studies curriculum that will put a conservative stamp on history and economics textbooks, stressing the superiority of American capitalism, questioning the Founding Fathers’ commitment to a purely secular government and presenting Republican political philosophies in a more positive light...

...In recent years, board members have been locked in an ideological battle between a bloc of conservatives who question Darwin’s theory of evolution and believe the Founding Fathers were guided by Christian principles, and a handful of Democrats and moderate Republicans who have fought to preserve the teaching of Darwinism and the separation of church and state.

AMEN!! It's all good!

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/education/13texas.html?_r=0

Oh yeah -- and then how radical! Btw -- according the Leftist hacks at the New York Times, Thomas Jefferson was "cut from a list of figures whose writings inspired revolutions in the late 18th century and 19th century...."

Now tell me -- exactly WHAT writings of his "inspired revolutions"?? Answer: NONE. Again, Jefferson more or less spoke for the ENTIRE GROUP.

Whose writings and big idea DID inspire others?: St. Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin and William Blackstone.

BINGO. Look up what each of them did. Then compare them to TJ.

Thomas Jeffeson does not nearly represent all the Founders; Moreover, the ONLY reason the Lefties ONLY mention TJ out of all the FFs is because of his oft misquoted, misunderstood, invented phrase, "Separation of Church and State."

Lastly, you asserted that the 'Focus on the Family' "write Jefferson out of American history." Bogus.

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   20:12:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: GarySpFC (#27)

“Should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school book? Its morals are pure, its examples, captivating and noble. In no book is there so good English, so pure and so elegant; and by teaching all the same book, they will speak alike, and the Bible will justly remain the standard of language as wellas of faith.” ~ Fisher Ames: Author of the First Amendment

Most of the Founders felt the same way about the Bible, and made it mandatory reading in American schooling for decades.

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   20:13:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Liberator (#34)

astly, you asserted that the 'Focus on the Family' "write Jefferson out of American history." Bogus.


Where does the Farce on the Family discuss the Virginia Act for the Establishment of Religious Freedom on their extensive website?

Here, let me help you with that:

=============

Your search - Thomas Jefferson "Virginia Act" site:www.focusonthefamily.com - did not match any documents.

Suggestions:

  • Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
  • Try different keywords.
  • Try more general keywords.
  • Try fewer keyword

https://www.google.com/search?q=Thomas+Jefferson+site%3Awww.focusonthefamily.com&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=Thomas+Jefferson+%22Virginia+Act%22+site:www.focusonthefamily.com

 


VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   20:15:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: Liberator (#35)

Most of the Founders felt the same way

"the insertion [of Jesus Christ] was rejected by a great majority,"

What does this mean?

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   20:16:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Liberator (#35)

Its morals are pure, its examples, captivating and noble.

I forget - How many wives did King David have again?

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   20:19:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: VxH, GarySpFC (#29)

What do "Remove" and "Restore" mean?

Ooops!

Your reading comprehension is sorely lacking.

Read it again and weep:

Board members had come under criticism for removing Jefferson's name [from list of political philosophers]...Earlier this year though they pointed out that [in any case] Jefferson would still be studied in other areas of the curriculum such as U.S. history and government."

Capisce?? That's right -- read it again in its proper context. The Texas school board removed Jefferson from the "political philosophers" category, but already remained in the "US History" and "Government" sections. Geez -- did you alkso want him mentioned in the "Religion" or "Messiah" categories as well?? Give it up. This story is written very ambiguously, and you took the bait, as had many. Afterall, it IS the New York Times. It's said they have an agenda. And McAudience. HELLO.

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   20:25:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Liberator (#34)

Now tell me -- exactly WHAT writings of his "inspired revolutions"??

Answer: NONE.

LOL. Are you serious - The Declaration of Independence didn't inspire a revolution?

I'm pretty sure it "inspired" the American Revolution - as well as others:

On August 30, 1945, Hồ Chí Minh invited several people to contribute their ideas toward his Proclamation of Independence. OSS officers met repeatedly with Ho Chi Minh and other Viet Minh officers during late August and Archimedes Patti claims to have listened to Ho read to him a draft of the Proclamation which he believed sounded very similar to the American Declaration of Independence.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proclamation_of_Independence_of_the_Democratic_Republic_of_Vietnam

 

http://www.google.com/#q=ho+chi+minh+%22declaration+of+independence%22


Oops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_in_the_Minds_of_Men

 

 

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   20:29:27 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Liberator (#39)

The Texas school board removed Jefferson from the "political philosophers" category

The Primary Author of the Declaration of Independence and the Author of the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom wasn't, according to the Revisionist Texas School Board, a Political Philosopher?

LOL. Capisce??

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   20:31:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Liberator (#39)

Your reading comprehension is sorely lacking.

My reading comprehension is just fine.

"Your search - Thomas Jefferson "Virginia Act" site:www.focusonthefamily.com - did not match any documents."

What does this mean?

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   20:35:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: VxH (#38)

(Its morals are pure, its examples, captivating and noble.)

I forget - How many wives did King David have again?

What -- Are you saying the Holy Bible isn't full of noble stories, virtue, and love? What should school children read? Thomas Jefferson's biography? THAT would be interesting. How virtuous a leader of his people was he? Oh, that's right -- as the author of, "All men are created equal" Jefferson once owned 600 slaves, and impregnated others. Look -- Jefferson did was an accomplished man, but he was a man, just one of many important Founders -- none of whom warrant any mention with King David.

King David lived HOW many centuries ago in B.C.? Before the New Covenant. As a favorite of God the Father. Jesus claimed Himself as a proud descendant of David. And yes, King David was indeed was noble. Or are you now going to question the motives and integrity of God the Father and testimony of Jesus Christ?

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   20:39:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: VxH (#40)

LOL. Are you serious - The Declaration of Independence didn't inspire a revolution?

Are YOU serious?? Jefferson himself "inspired" the revolution? NEWSFLASH: The "revolution" was already in progress. Uh, nice spin

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   20:41:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Liberator (#43)

King David lived HOW many centuries ago in B.C.?

The Polygamist King David in the Bible?

That one?

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   20:43:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: VxH (#41)

The Primary Author of the Declaration of Independence and the Author of the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom wasn't, according to the Revisionist Texas School Board, a Political Philosopher?

LOL -- now you're capitalizing "PRIMARY"? Look -- Jefferson was given an outline, discussed and debated among other Founders. He wrote and composed the final draft with a lot of help. I'm still willing to give him a lot of credit, don't worry.

"Political Philosopher"?? Since when is that a category of history? Sounds like neo-socialist BS to me. Who else is was there before the conservatives on the school board cleaned house? Al Sharpton?

This was about removing all the liberal and Leftists cirriculum that they'd hijacked from the original cirriculum. Hey -- did you even read the NYT article and the changes made that carved up what had been a liberal curriculum?? But my bad -- you're liberal, aretcha?

Here read it again:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/education/13texas.html?_r=0

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   20:51:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: Liberator (#44)

Are YOU serious?? Jefferson himself "inspired" the revolution? NEWSFLASH: The "revolution" was already in progress. Uh, nice spin

The IDEAS, articulated in the American Declaration for Independence, certainly were among the "Fire in the Minds of [American] Men".

Philosophical IDEAS - like the ones Hồ Chí Minh picked up and ran with a couple of hundred years later:


"On August 30, 1945, Hồ Chí Minh invited several people to contribute their ideas toward his Proclamation of Independence. OSS officers met repeatedly with Ho Chi Minh and other Viet Minh officers during late August and Archimedes Patti claims to have listened to Ho read to him a draft of the Proclamation which he believed sounded very similar to the American Declaration of Independence.[3]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proclamation_of_Independence_of_the_Democratic_Republic_of_Vietnam

How do you and the Texas revisionists reconcile the fact that Thomas Jefferson's philosophical Declaration evidently ALSO inpsired Ho? 

 

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   20:54:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: VxH (#45)

The Polygamist King David in the Bible?

That one?

Yup, that David, that's how they rolled in B.C.

That same David who was an ancestor of Jesus Christ, of whom was often called "Son of David."

The same David who God called a "man after his own heart." THAT David. Got a problem with it? Take it to The Lord Himself (NOT to be confused with *cough, hack* Tommy "Where is Slave Number 576?" Jefferson.)

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   20:57:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: VxH (#37)

Not following. You're cutting and pasting out of context and sequence.

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   20:59:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Liberator (#46) (Edited)

"Political Philosopher"?? Since when is that a category of history? Sounds like neo-socialist BS to me.

 

  • Political philosophy is the study of topics such as politics, liberty, justice, property, rights, law, and the enforcement of a legal code by authority: what they are, why (or even if) they are needed, what, if anything, makes a government legitimate, what rights and freedoms it should protect and why, what form it ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_philosophy

 

" politics, liberty, justice, property, rights, law, and the enforcement of a legal code by authority"

Yep just BS, to you.

Does Plato's Republic ring any bells in your tiny religified brain?

 

 

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   21:02:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Liberator (#48)

Yup, that David,

Yep the "Moral" polygamist. That one. Just checking.

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   21:05:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: VxH, GarySpFC, redleghunter (#30)

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination."

--Thomas Jefferson

What does "the insertion was rejected by a great majority," mean?

It clearly means that even many of the Christian Founders majorities felt it unnecessary to specifically overtly mention Jesus Christ within a political instrument since the Father and He was already assumed to be the "Author" in any case.

That said, you're delusional if you believe the rest of the Founders by and large endorsed the "inclusive" language of, "Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination."

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   21:10:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Liberator (#49) (Edited)

Not following. You're cutting and pasting out of context and sequence.

libertysflame.com/cgi-bin...?ArtNum=37828&Disp=32#C32

"The great majority" chose NOT to include "Jesus Christ".

Why was that?

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   21:12:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Liberator (#52) (Edited)

the Father and He

Jefferson believed in "the Father and He" do tell?

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   21:14:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Liberator (#52)

That said, you're delusional if you believe the rest of the Founders

I believe Thomas Jefferson said "the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination."

That's not delusion, it's historical FACT.

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   21:19:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: VxH (#50) (Edited)

I know this'll just blow your mind, but ALL of the signees of the DoI were indeed Political Philosophers. And so is every politician. And so are you and I.

Does Plato's Republic ring any bells in your tiny religified brain?

Yes it does. Like a gong. Compared to Jefferson's *clank* of a champagne glass.

Jefferson was just one of many MANY "political philosophers" among the Founders. Why must he be elevated in the Pantheon of Secular Humanism's Hall of Fame...er, I mean, in the Texas Board of Education's "Political Philosophers" category? I'll tell you why: Because he wasn't a Christian.

Why did the Texas Board of Education tried also to shove "Evolution" down the kids throats? Same reason.

Why did the new conservative Texas Board of Education require that the history of McCarthyism also now include “how the later release of the Venona papers confirmed suspicions of communist infiltration in U.S. government”? It moves and balances education TO THE RIGHT.

The new conservative Texas Board of Education also included a plank to ensure that students learn about “the conservative resurgence of the 1980s and 1990s, including Phyllis Schlafly, the Contract With America, the Heritage Foundation, the Moral Majority and the National Rifle Association.”

I guess you've also got a problem with IT. All because Tommy Jefferson' has been demoted in the "political philosophers" section, along with words he never wrote OR uttered: "Separation of Church and State."

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   21:23:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: VxH (#55)

I believe Thomas Jefferson said "the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination."

That's not delusion, it's historical FACT.

Nice re-spin.

I said, "You're delusional if you believe the rest of the Founders by and large endorsed the inclusive language of, 'Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination.'"

You're welcome.

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   21:25:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: VxH (#54) (Edited)

Jefferson believed in "the Father and He" do tell?

He = Jesus Christ. In the context of Author." Again, your reading comprehension and choppy cut & paste are hitting speed bumps.

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   21:28:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Liberator (#57)

"a great majority"

Any of those folks sign Jefferson's Politicaly Philosophical declaration of independence?

The IDEAs articulated in the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom are the same IDEAs distilled into the 1st Amendment's prohibition against State-establishments - lest Rome's CaeSARean MYSTERY whores perch a King upon the steps of their temples on this side of the pond.

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   21:33:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: Liberator (#58) (Edited)

He = Jesus Christ.

But you said "the Father and He".

Jefferson was a Unitarian.

What does that mean?

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   21:33:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: VxH (#53)

The great majority" chose NOT to include "Jesus Christ".

Why was that?

For further clarification:

It clearly means that even many of the Christian Founders majorities felt it unnecessary to specifically overtly mention Jesus Christ within a political instrument since the Father and [Son] were already assumed to be the "Author" of liberty and "unalienable rights" in any case.

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   21:35:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: VxH (#60)

But you said "the Father and He".

Jefferson was a Unitarian.

What does that mean?

http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=37828&Disp=61#C61

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   21:36:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: Liberator (#56)

Jefferson was just one of many MANY "political philosophers"

Just one of the political philosophers whose ideas inspired the American Revolution... and others?

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   21:37:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: Liberator (#62)

Do Unitarians believe in the Trinity?

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   21:38:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Liberator (#61)

It clearly means that even many of the Christian Founders majorities felt it unnecessary to specifically overtly mention Jesus Christ within a political instrument

Maybe in your revisionist, Fallible and Uninspired, tiny brain.

Meanwhile in reality land what Jefferson CLEARLY wrote was:

"in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination."

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   21:44:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: VxH (#59)

Any of those folks sign Jefferson's Politicaly Philosophical declaration of independence?

HA! Now you claim the DoI is TJ's?? NEWSFLASH: It wasn't Jefferson's DoI; It was ALL of the Founders, including collaborations and contribution from several other Founders. Jefferson articulated it into words. A great job I might add. But he had a lott of help as mentioned. We've already reviewed this, but you want to rehash it until you've crowns Jefferson King of the US, and MVP of US History? LOL -- not the way it was.

Why the obsession on deifying Jefferson and over-exaggerating his contribution to the new republic's freedom? No, really. Is it because you are kindred spirits, subscribing to the Swiss Cheese version of the Bible with all the supernatural parts and miracles of Jesus missing?

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   21:44:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: Liberator (#66) (Edited)

HA! Now you claim the DoI is TJ's?? NEWSFLASH: It wasn't Jefferson's DoI;

"In 1776 Jefferson, then a member of the committee to draft a declaration of independence, was chosen by the committee to write the draft. This he did, with some minor corrections from John Adams and an embellishment from Franklin, the document was offered to the Congress on the first day of July."

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/signers/jefferson.htm

FAIL again Libertard.

Who wrote the Virginia Act for Establishing Religious Freedom?
www.google.com/#q=Fallibl...men+have+assumed+dominion

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   21:48:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: VxH (#63)

Just one of the political philosophers whose ideas inspired the American Revolution... and others?

Others?? Are. You. Serious?? Try 52 signers of the DoI for starters. And some important Founders that didn't even sign it. Like George Washington.

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   21:50:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: Liberator (#68) (Edited)

And others like Ho Chi Minh, super genius - who were inspired by the American Declaration of Independence.

Who wrote the draft of that again?

"In 1776 Jefferson, then a member of the committee to draft a declaration of independence, was chosen by the committee to write the draft. This he did, with some minor corrections from John Adams and an embellishment from Franklin, the document was offered to the Congress on the first day of July."

www.ushistory.org/declaration/signers/jefferson.htm

Oh, that's right - THOMAS JEFFERSON.

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   21:51:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Liberator (#66)

Why the obsession on deifying Jefferson

"ERRORS CEASING TO BE DANGEROUS WHEN IT PERMITTED FREELY TO CONTRADICT THEM"

Is Islamic Sharia law an ERROR that requires CONTRADICTING?

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   22:00:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: VxH (#67) (Edited)

The Second Continental Congress initially appointed five people to draw up a declaration. The committee included:

Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, Roger Sherman, Robert Livingston and Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson was then given the task of writing a draft for the Declaration of Independence, which from June 11 to June 28 he worked on. Before he presented the Declaration to the Continental Congress, he showed it to John Adams and Benjamin Franklin; they made revisions. He presented the draft to Congress on July 1, 1776 and more revisions were made.

IOW, Jefferson was a secretary for Franklin, Adams, Sherman, and Livingston. Bosses, Adams and Franklin nixed Jefferson's initial presentations of the declaration. The draft underwent further edits and revisions until the delegates met on July 4th at the Pennsylvania State House, and approved the Declaration. John Hancock, the President of the Continental Congress ok'd it along with Charles Thomson. Afterward, Jefferson recieved a letter from his head slave. It seemed 253 of them had a cold, 15 slaves the mumps, 2 were pregnant, and the rest were healthy enough to work on Mass'ah's farm.

Do you ever wonder whether Jefferson ever coughed up bile as he wrote the phrase, "All men are created equal"?

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-13   22:01:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: Liberator (#71)

IOW, Jefferson was a secretary for Franklin,

In YOUR words.

Fallible and Uninspired much?

You figure out if Unitarians believe in the Trinity yet, Super Parrot?

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   22:06:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: VxH (#65)

Yeah ...

Secular pluralism ---

Do you know what that means !

Stop playing with your political dildo collection !

If you ... don't use exclamation points --- you should't be typeing ! Commas - semicolons - question marks are for girlie boys !

BorisY  posted on  2015-02-13   22:09:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: Liberator (#71) (Edited)

Do you ever wonder whether Jefferson ever coughed up bile as he wrote the phrase, "All men are created equal"?

Nope.

If there's any "bile" it's probably just the ooze that's seeping into your tiny little religiously petrified brain at the thought of what "Fallible and Uninspired" means when you look in the mirror.

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   22:09:51 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: GarySpFC (#13)

Amen.

"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-13   22:10:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: BorisY (#73) (Edited)

Tsk tsk. Have you been making Vodka out of toilet seats again Boris - or just drinking out of the bowl as usual?

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   22:11:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: VxH (#76)

Drug suppositories for you !

If you ... don't use exclamation points --- you should't be typeing ! Commas - semicolons - question marks are for girlie boys !

BorisY  posted on  2015-02-13   22:13:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: BorisY (#77)

Don't forget to put the lid back down after quenching your thirst.

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   22:18:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: VxH (#78) (Edited)

Liberals - libertarians control the language - mind - culture - politics ...

secularism - pluralism - is founding fathers - * THOMAS JEFFERSON * - Christianity - really good ---

diversity - fascism - atheism - satanism is brave new world * neocommunism * !

That's what you are ... troll - zombie --- statist - Satanist - neocom !

If you ... don't use exclamation points --- you should't be typeing ! Commas - semicolons - question marks are for girlie boys !

BorisY  posted on  2015-02-13   22:30:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: BorisY (#79) (Edited)

Been psychotic long? They're going to take your teddy bear away again if you don't behave.

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   22:31:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: VxH (#80)

reality to you is an unknown non existent universe !

stay in your blow up play doll world !

If you ... don't use exclamation points --- you should't be typeing ! Commas - semicolons - question marks are for girlie boys !

BorisY  posted on  2015-02-13   22:36:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: VxH (#80)

Liberals - libertarians control the language - mind - culture - politics ...

not mine ...

no thanks ---

stay lost - good riddance !

If you ... don't use exclamation points --- you should't be typeing ! Commas - semicolons - question marks are for girlie boys !

BorisY  posted on  2015-02-13   22:39:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: BorisY (#82)

{ Ring Ring Ring }

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   22:42:26 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: VxH (#83) (Edited)

Liberals - libertarians - * * DIEVERSITARIANS * * - control the language - mind - culture - politics ...

secularism - pluralism - is founding fathers - * THOMAS JEFFERSON * - Christianity - really good ---

diversity - fascism - atheism - satanism is - * VxH * - brave new world * neocommunism * !

* That's what you are ... troll - zombie --- statist - Satanist - neocom !

Look up ... popery - buggery --- to see your bio - pic !

If you ... don't use exclamation points --- you should't be typeing ! Commas - semicolons - question marks are for girlie boys !

BorisY  posted on  2015-02-13   22:47:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: BorisY (#84)

Psychotic * That's what you are ... crazy - loonie --- padded cell - Screwball - inpatient!

Do you feel like you're going to hurt yourself or others?

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   22:52:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: VxH (#85) (Edited)

Look up ... popery - buggery --- to see your bio - pic !

Aids too !

diversity - fascism - atheism - satanism is - * VxH * - brave new world * neocommunism * !

* pervert !

If you ... don't use exclamation points --- you should't be typeing ! Commas - semicolons - question marks are for girlie boys !

BorisY  posted on  2015-02-13   22:55:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: BorisY (#84)

Have you ever considered applying for a local resident job @BlackSandsBeach as a panhandler? You would considered "gifted" about the meaningful content of your personal cardboard signs and perhaps make a fortune in Hawaii within your little tin-can cup daily groveling.

Pridie.Nones  posted on  2015-02-13   22:55:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: Pridie.Nones (#87)

Thanks for the ... bath house - opium den --- advice !

If you ... don't use exclamation points --- you should't be typeing ! Commas - semicolons - question marks are for girlie boys !

BorisY  posted on  2015-02-13   23:01:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: BorisY (#86)

Do you wet your pajamas when the straight jacket is on?

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   23:05:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: VxH (#89)

YOU WOULD KNOW

Liberals - libertarians - * * DIEVERSITARIANS * * - control the language - mind - culture - politics ...

If you ... don't use exclamation points --- you should't be typeing ! Commas - semicolons - question marks are for girlie boys !

BorisY  posted on  2015-02-13   23:06:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: BorisY (#88)

BTW, how was golf with 0bama in Hawaii? I believe it was creatures such as yourself that necessitated the 0bama administration to find a way to pay for electro-shock therapy as a write-off.

Pridie.Nones  posted on  2015-02-13   23:07:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: BorisY (#90)

Don't make me get out the cattle prod again little man.

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   23:08:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: VxH, GarySpFc, liberator, CZ82 (#33)

What does this mean?

It means the Virginia Act was not a secular skeptic manifesto. Let's look at it:

An Act for Establishing Religious Freedom Enacted by the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia January 16, 1786

Whereas Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the Holy author of our religion, who being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do; that the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavouring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world, and through all time; that to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves, is sinful and tyrannical; that even the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion, is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor, whose morals he would make his pattern, and whose powers he feels most persuasive to righteousness, and is withdrawing from the ministry those temporary rewards, which proceeding from an approbation of their personal conduct, are an additional incitement to earnest and unremitting labours for the instruction of mankind; that our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry; that therefore the proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument, unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion, is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages to which in common with his fellow-citizens he has a natural right; that it tends only to corrupt the principles of that religion it is meant to encourage, by bribing with a monopoly of wor[l]dly honours and emoluments, those who will externally profess and conform to it; that though indeed these are criminal who do not withstand such temptation, yet neither are those innocent who lay the bait in their way; that to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion, and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency, is a dangerous fallacy, which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgement; and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own; that it is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government, for its officers to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order; and finally, that truth is great and will prevail if left to herself, that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict, unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons, free argument and debate, errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them:

Be it enacted by the General Assembly, That no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.

And though we well know that this assembly elected by the people for the ordinary purposes of legislation only, have no power to restrain the acts of succeeding assemblies, constituted with powers equal to our own, and that therefore to declare this act to be irrevocable would be of no effect in law; yet we are free to declare, and do declare, that the rights hereby asserted are of the natural rights of mankind, and that if any act shall be hereafter passed to repeal the present, or to narrow its operation such act will be an infringement of natural right.

"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-13   23:11:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: VxH (#92)

You should ... hang out with owk --- my old nemesis - groupie !

If you ... don't use exclamation points --- you should't be typeing ! Commas - semicolons - question marks are for girlie boys !

BorisY  posted on  2015-02-13   23:12:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: redleghunter (#93) (Edited)

It means the Virginia Act was not a secular skeptic manifesto.

That may be true.

But what does it say about Focus on the Family when it mentions Thomas Jefferson multiple times on its website - but not the Virginia Act for Establishing religious freedom?

"yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either"

Does the herd there not recognize the natural right of the Individual to establish the relationship between themselves and their Creator without collective coercion?

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   23:23:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: VxH, GarySpFc, liberator, CZ82 (#53)

The great majority" chose NOT to include "Jesus Christ".

Why was that?

The same reason some people of the era used "Divine Providence". They were serious people regarding Exodus 20:7. Some viewed using Jesus Christ as reserved for Gospel preaching and prayer. They were very reserved invoking the Name of Almighty God in the affairs of men.

Many as Gary has pointed out were not as reserved.

Don't know if you read the tome on Washington's faith called "Sacred Fire." In it there is much discussion on how Washington in his conduct of letters and prayer and worship followed the guidelines in the English Book of Prayer.

Here's a sample found in his prayer book:

Almighty God, and most merciful father, who didst command the children of Israel to offer a daily sacrifice to thee, that thereby they might glorify and praise thee for thy protection both night and day; receive, O Lord, my morning sacrifice which I now offer up to thee;

I yield thee humble and hearty thanks that thou has preserved me from the dangers of the night past, and brought me to the light of this day, and the comforts thereof, a day which is consecrated to thine own service and for thine own honor. Let my heart, therefore, Gracious God, be so affected with the glory and majesty of it, that I may not do mine own works, but wait on thee, and discharge those weighty duties thou requirest of me; and since thou art a God of pure eyes, and wilt be sanctified in all who draw near unto thee, who doest not regard the sacrifice of fools, nor hear sinners who tread in thy courts, pardon, I beseech thee, my sins, remove them from thy presence, as far as the east is from the west, and accept of me for the merits of thy son Jesus Christ, that when I come into thy temple, and compass thine altar, my prayers may come before thee as incense; and as thou wouldst hear me calling upon thee in my prayers, so give me grace to hear thee calling on me in thy word, that it may be wisdom, righteousness, reconciliation and peace to the saving of my soul in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Grant that I may hear it with reverence, receive it with meekness, mingle it with faith, and that it may accomplish in me, Gracious God, the good work for which thou has sent it. Bless my family, kindred, friends and country, be our God & guide this day and for ever for his sake, who lay down in the Grave and arose again for us, Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen.

"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-13   23:30:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: VxH (#95)

I posted the Act. No mention of Muslims or Ghandi.

"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-13   23:31:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: redleghunter (#96)

The same reason some people of the era used "Divine Providence"

Well if that explanation makes you happy that's nice. But I don't buy it.

I'll stick with Jefferson's explanation.

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   23:35:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: redleghunter (#97) (Edited)

No mention of Muslims or Ghandi.

Or Jesus.

Got Deism?

The Act is consistent with Free Masonry.

What is located 2 miles North of the Jefferson Memorial, and 1 mile North of the White House?

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   23:36:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: Liberator (#34)

AUSTIN, Tex. — After three days of turbulent meetings, the Texas Board of Education on Friday approved a social studies curriculum that will put a conservative stamp on history and economics textbooks, stressing the superiority of American capitalism, questioning the Founding Fathers’ commitment to a purely secular government and presenting Republican political philosophies in a more positive light...

...In recent years, board members have been locked in an ideological battle between a bloc of conservatives who question Darwin’s theory of evolution and believe the Founding Fathers were guided by Christian principles, and a handful of Democrats and moderate Republicans who have fought to preserve the teaching of Darwinism and the separation of church and state.

The really neat thing about this is that the textbooks Texas decides to use also determines the books rest of the nation uses.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-13   23:43:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: VxH (#63)

Just one of the political philosophers whose ideas inspired the American Revolution... and others?

Deism was far different at the time of the revolution than what we see today, and it certainly was not atheism.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-13   23:47:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: VxH, GarySpFc, liberator, CZ82 (#98)

I'll stick with Jefferson's explanation.

Jefferson offered the opinion later in life. He assumed others believed what he had in mind. One opinion of many.

Perhaps we should ask what the Act addressed? It was denominations. The Act ensured no one "church" government would be established.

He reflects such in the Danbury Baptist letters.

The body of evidence of the plurality of the founders is against you. If you want to canonize Jefferson your founding pope have at it. You have a lot of company in the Belt Way.

The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.

The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses.---Thomas Jefferson

"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-13   23:49:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: VxH (#99)

LOL more CT deism. You have company with others here on the vast Masonic conspiracy.

"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-13   23:51:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: Liberator, GarySpFc (#34)

Oh yeah -- and then how radical! Btw -- according the Leftist hacks at the New York Times, Thomas Jefferson was "cut from a list of figures whose writings inspired revolutions in the late 18th century and 19th century...."

Now tell me -- exactly WHAT writings of his "inspired revolutions"?? Answer: NONE. Again, Jefferson more or less spoke for the ENTIRE GROUP.

Whose writings and big idea DID inspire others?: St. Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin and William Blackstone.

BINGO. Look up what each of them did. Then compare them to TJ.

Thomas Jeffeson does not nearly represent all the Founders; Moreover, the ONLY reason the Lefties ONLY mention TJ out of all the FFs is because of his oft misquoted, misunderstood, invented phrase, "Separation of Church and State."

Lastly, you asserted that the 'Focus on the Family' "write Jefferson out of American history." Bogus.

The above saved me some "ink." Bravo.

"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-13   23:54:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: GarySpFC (#101)

and it certainly was not atheism.

Nobody said it was atheism.

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   23:57:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: redleghunter (#104) (Edited)

The above saved me some "ink." Bravo

You and the rest of the herd figured out why Ho Chi Minh's revolutionary declaration was inspired by the "Philosophical" document Jefferson drafted?

VxH  posted on  2015-02-13   23:59:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: VxH (#106)

Ho Chi Mihn was inspired by being rejected by the US government.

"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-14   0:01:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: VxH (#105)

And it was far different than the Deism we see today.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-14   0:03:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: redleghunter (#103) (Edited)

the vast Masonic conspiracy.

I don't think it's a conspiracy.

Cecil B. DeMill's explanation of why he made the 10 Commandments isn't about "conspiracy" -- it's about FREEDOM.

Freedom from state-established religions who usurp their temporal authority from the One God.

In that film, Moses is clearly depicted as a prototypical Freemason.

VxH  posted on  2015-02-14   0:04:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: GarySpFC (#108) (Edited)

And it was far different than the Deism we see today.

Says Fallible and Uninspired you.
 
Meanwhile I'll believe what I see with my own eyes and free mind when they perceive the craftsmanship of the Creator, and the writing on the wall that was left for that purpose.
 
 
 
 
 

VxH  posted on  2015-02-14   0:09:06 ET  (5 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: redleghunter (#107)

Ho Chi Mihn was inspired by being rejected by the US government.

Evidently there's a little more to the Fire that was in Ho Chi's mind.

 

On August 30, 1945, Hồ Chí Minh invited several people to contribute their ideas toward his Proclamation of Independence. OSS officers met repeatedly with Ho Chi Minh and other Viet Minh officers during late August and Archimedes Patti claims to have listened to Ho read to him a draft of the Proclamation which he believed sounded very similar to the American Declaration of Independence.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proclamation_of_Independence_of_the_Democratic_Republic_of_Vietnam

VxH  posted on  2015-02-14   0:17:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: VxH (#110)

God and Government. It is clear from the Declaration that Jefferson did not envision the separation of God from government. Indeed, he believed governments owed allegiance to God. Inscribed in the marble of his memorial in Washington, D. C., is the quotation: “God who gave us life, gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation remain secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are a gift of God?”

Although Jefferson was in France as ambassador when Congress ratified the First Amendment (1789), he certainly agreed that “Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion; nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” This is not the “wall of separation” he is said to have espoused. The intent of the First Amendment is clearly that the federal government was not to establish a national religion in the English manner. It is interesting that five colonies had state religions when they ratified this amendment. It was actually in a fit of pique over what the Baptist association in Danbury, Connecticut, had said about his beliefs that Jefferson wrote of the “wall of separation between Church and State.” He never used the phrase outside the context of this private letter, and other statements indicate that Jeffersonian “wall” should protect the state government from federal interference with regard to religion.

Jefferson left ample evidence of his views about church and state cooperation. He established a department of religion in the University of Virginia. He even proposed that students be required to attend church and refrain from swearing. In a treaty with the Kaskaskia Indians, Jefferson and Congress paid for the services of a missionary and a church building with tax funds. Congress did this more than once, being careful not to favor one religious group over another.

The central philosophy in this was that no religious view or group should be given legal sanction at the expense of another view or group. He said, “I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another” (Padover, 119). Besides maintaining that such action would violate the natural law right of free religion, Jefferson believed it would be disadvantageous for religion, since each sect is a check on the others.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-14   0:24:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: redleghunter (#107)

Ho Chi Mihn was inspired by being rejected by the US government.

Self-evidently NOT:

"All men are created equal; they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights; among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. This immortal statement was made in the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America in 1776. In a broader sense, this means: All the peoples on the earth are equal from birth, all the peoples have a right to live, to be happy and free. The Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen of the French Revolution made in 1791 also states: All men are born free and with equal rights, and must always remain free and have equal rights. Those are undeniable truths. Nevertheless, for more than eighty years, the French imperialists..."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro...ratic_Republic_of_Vietnam

VxH  posted on  2015-02-14   0:28:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: GarySpFC (#112) (Edited)

It is clear from the Declaration that Jefferson did not envision the separation of God from government.

A government can be free from religion without being separated from God.

Jefferson was well aware of government's historical role in the imposition of TEMPORAL PUNISHMENTS AND BURTHENS.

Jefferson intended America to be free of coercive, state-established, religious Ba'al-shyte -- "Christian" and otherwise.

In America the relationship between the Individual and the Creator is NOT within the purview of temporal government.

VxH  posted on  2015-02-14   0:38:30 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: GarySpFC (#112) (Edited)

"the intent of the First Amendment is clearly that the federal government was not to establish a national religion in the English manner."

In the English manner.
In the Roman manner.
In the Egyptian manner.
In the Babylonian manner.
In the Akkadian manner.
...
In the Ba'al, state-worshiping, manner.

VxH  posted on  2015-02-14   0:45:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: All (#113) (Edited)

""All men are created equal; they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights; among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. This immortal statement was made in the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America in 1776."
--Ho Chi Minh, Circa 1945

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro...ratic_Republic_of_Vietnam

But Thomas Jefferson, who drafted that "immortal statement" -- wasn't deemed worthy by the religiously petrified idiots on the Texas school board of being included in the list of Revolution inspiring Philosophical thinkers.

FAIL. FAIL. FAIL.

{ edit }

A$$HOLES!

VxH  posted on  2015-02-14   0:58:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: VxH (#116)

Well Texas should be thanked for getting white men, other than Boone, Crockett and Houston back in the history books.

"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-14   1:41:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: VxH (#72)

Super Parrot

lol

Biff Tannen  posted on  2015-02-14   7:36:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: VxH (#115)

Excepting the ... communist - atheist - evolution - fascist - catholic manner --- short name- dieversty !

The kingdom supersedes the ussa !

There's a prophecy it ... beast - false prophet - anti christ --- will be toppled !

Deist is the name of their fake god - supremacist religion - ideology !

If you ... don't use exclamation points --- you should't be typeing ! Commas - semicolons - question marks are for girlie boys !

BorisY  posted on  2015-02-14   9:28:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: VxH (#110) (Edited)

""All men are created equal; they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights; among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. This immortal statement was made in the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America in 1776." --Ho Chi Minh, Circa 1945 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro...ratic_Republic_of_Vietnam

But Thomas Jefferson, who drafted that "immortal statement" -- wasn't deemed worthy by the religiously petrified idiots on the Texas school board of being included in the list of Revolution inspiring Philosophical thinkers.

FAIL. FAIL. FAIL.

Inserting God. The committee that edited Thomas Jefferson’s draft of the Declaration of Independence altered Jefferson’s vague “from that equal creation” to the more direct “endowed by their Creator.”

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-14   10:19:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: VxH (#115)

And neither was the government to interfere with the exercise of religion.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-14   13:55:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: GarySpFC, VxH, redleghunter (#120)

VxH:

"Thomas Jefferson, who drafted that 'immortal statement' -- wasn't deemed worthy by the religiously petrified idiots on the Texas school board of being included in the list of Revolution inspiring Philosophical thinkers."

Inserting God. The committee that edited Thomas Jefferson’s draft of the Declaration of Independence altered Jefferson’s vague “from that equal creation” to the more direct “endowed by their Creator.”

Nice find, Gary.

Appears Jefferson was hoping the insertion of a weaselly phrase (“from that equal creation”) in the "DoI would bamboozle the Christian Founders and avoid crediting God, our "Creator" for man's "certain unalienable rights." Why didn't he pull it off? Sherman and Livingston were both strong Christians and influential Founders in their own right, amd most likely veto'd it immediately, along with the savvy Franklin. I'd assume Franklin brokered the compromise of "endowed by their Creator," which may be the single most important phrase in the DoI, carrying with it the weight of The Almighty's own stamp of approval and entitlement -- NOT "man's.

VxH -- you do realize that because of your one obsessive single issue of what you deem as a "diss" of Jefferson, you've aligned yourself with the ousted out-going Democrat-liberal faction of Texas School Board members...don't you? Their agenda was a decidedly secular humanist, leftist, revisionist, pro-abortion, pro-gay, pro-subversion, revisionist propaganda. Boo-freakin'-Hoo about Jefferson's elimination from the Leftists' list of "Social Revolutionaries." ALTHOUGH on second thought, if the context of Jefferson's standing as a "revolutionary" to your allies is "anti-Christian" or agnostic, perhaps you and the Leftists at the Texas School Board are indeed losing your Patron Saint of Heathenism.

Get over your fetish for the confused Deist Jefferson, your hostility toward 'The Focus on the Family' and the newly minted, sane conservative Texas School board. Time to infuse the young pods with the truth.

Christians: Standing between tyranny and slavery, the sane and insane since 1774. NOT Deists.

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-14   14:09:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: VxH (#70)

Is Islamic Sharia law an ERROR that requires CONTRADICTING?

Who cares about your strawmen?

But in this case I'll bite...

As to your question, wouldn't you find your answer in Jefferson's notes and letters? After all, isn't HE the one who owns a Koran?

I've never heard of such silliness. You mean if not for the overwhelming Christian Founders objecting, Jefferson would have embedded the following language within the DoI, "in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination."

Tommy Jefferson is painfully diminished in my eyes.

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-14   14:18:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: VxH, Liberator, Redleghunter, ALL (#116)

Grand Experiment

There was an old man who was a great admirer of democracy and public education. So close to his heart did he hold both institutions that he tried to bring them together into one grand experiment, a public college where students would practice self-governance. There would be no regulations; the goodwill and judgment of the students would suffice. After years of planning, the school was finally opened. The old man was overjoyed.

But as the months went by, students proved time and time again that they were not the models of discipline and discernment the old man envisioned. They skipped classes, drank to excess, and wasted hours in frivolous pursuits. One night, 14 students, disguised by masks and “animated with wine,” went on a rampage that ended in a brawl. One struck a professor with a brick, and another used a cane on his victim.

In response, the college’s trustees convened a special meeting. The old man, now 82 years old and very frail, was asked to address the student body. In his remarks, he recalled the lofty principles upon which the college had been founded. He said he had expected more—much more—from the students. He even confessed that this was the most painful event of his life. Suddenly, he stopped speaking. Tears welled up in his failing eyes. He was so overcome with grief that he sat down, unable to go on.

His audience was so touched that at the conclusion of the meeting the 14 offenders stepped forward to admit their guilt. But they could not undo the damage already done. A strict code of conduct and numerous onerous regulations were instituted at the college. The old man’s experiment had failed. Why? Because he took for granted the one essential ingredient necessary for success: virtue. Only a virtuous people can secure and maintain their freedom.

A short time later, on the Fourth of July, the old man passed away. Engraved on his tombstone were the simple words that reflected the success and failure of his most important experiments: “Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence and father of the University of Virginia.” Now, as Paul Harvey says, you know the rest of the story.

Imprimis, April 1997, Volume 26, Number 4, Hillsdale College, MI, pp. 1-2

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-14   14:21:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: VxH (#72)

IOW, Jefferson was a secretary for Franklin,

In YOUR words.

Yeah, how 'bout that? I know it hurts :-(

Jefferson was playing stenographer for Sherman, Livingstone, and Franklin. And NOT before they edited, redacted, and bolstered the final draft. Then at last TJ's essay was found to be representing the Declaration of Independence on behalf of ALL the Founders.

Fallible and Uninspired much?

Not often. Only when I'm fed a steaming heap of historical revisionism while entertaining a drooling Fanboi of Tommy Jefferson, aka the only so-called American "Revolutionary."

You figure out if Unitarians believe in the Trinity yet, Super Parrot?

And it matters...WHY?? Oh, where are my manners -- I had NO idea you were holding your relgious service at LF. Do you burn incense? Do you make exceptions for non-Masons?

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-14   14:30:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: GarySpFC, VxH, Redleghunter, ALL (#124)

The old man’s experiment had failed. Why? Because he took for granted the one essential ingredient necessary for success: virtue. Only a virtuous people can secure and maintain their freedom.

A short time later, on the Fourth of July, the old man passed away. Engraved on his tombstone were the simple words that reflected the success and failure of his most important experiments: “Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence and father of the University of Virginia.”

Outstanding story -- never heard it.

Jefferson was an idealist. Fortunately, he lived during an extraordinary window of time in American history where he was able to articulate his idealism into deed -- on the back of Christian virtue. As noted, without a virtuous, Godly people, discipline, honor, and discernment devolve.

Man guided by secular humanist principles inevitably debases himself, even with the best intentions. The well-meaning Jefferson's personal experiment proved that.

Had Jefferson lived during the 1960s, "Kumbaya" would have been his license plate.

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-14   14:40:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: VxH (#74)

If there's any "bile" it's probably just the ooze that's seeping into your tiny little religiously petrified brain at the thought of what "Fallible and Uninspired" means when you look in the mirror.

You mad, bro? :-(

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-14   14:41:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: BorisY (#84)

Pretty good assessment actually...

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-14   14:43:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: VxH, BorisY (#92)

Don't make me get out the cattle prod again little man.

Your Stalag camp guard mask is sliding off.

I know Boris -- unless you think you can get a handle on a 6-3, 250 pound linebacker, go take your chances (he lives in Hawaii.)

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-14   14:46:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: VxH (#3)

During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.

--James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments; 20 June 1785

http://press- pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendI_religions43.html

kenh  posted on  2015-02-14   15:39:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: redleghunter, GarySpFc, CZ82, VxH (#93)

What does this mean?

It means the Virginia Act was not a secular skeptic manifesto. Let's look at it:

I see it differently.

It may not be an obvious "secular skeptic manifesto," but it's open to interpretation. I'd call it a "Cynic's Manifesto."

Jefferson softens the blow(s) by opening with "Almighty God," mention of "holy Author," and a few mentions of "our religion" to demonstrate who side he's on (for the time being.)

The singular ad nausem thrust of Jefferson rapidly appears to be his laser-beam focus and obsession on..."our religion"; The "religion" or Christian faith that 52 of 56 signers of the DoI called their own; That same "religion" which supplied the necessary fount of strength and faith to draw upon and endure in the name of The Alighty God. The same may be said of the majority of Continental Army soldiers.... Suddenly Thomas Jefferson advises being over-cautious about "religion," reminding his readers that "religion" is a two-edged sword. (But WAS IT??) He gushes one, assuming the pitfalls of "impious" pastors and churches that are destined to be baiting, coercive, injurious, infringing upon, and prone to bribes and coercion.

So...is Jefferson an obsessed crusader, opining on a personal thesis regarding the threat of Christianity to the governance of the new republic? OR does he sincerely fear that the freedom of common man and governance will eventually be usurped by "religion," who he sees as vulnerable prey to the wiles of predator pastors and ministries? The man was...paranoid, and a closet anti-Christian. Which is exactly why the Left lionizes Jefferson and regards him as their "Father of our (secular) Country."

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-14   15:42:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: kenh (#130)

During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.

--James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments; 20 June 1785

Madison is obviously referring to the fifteen centuries Holy Roman Catholic Church rule.

The Founders and immigrants to America had been fleeing CC prosecution and seeking religious (Protestant-Christian) freedom for about 150 years by that time. They ultimately established such a place.

The "fruits" are obvious:

The eradication of the invading Islamic hordes.

The Enlightenment.

The end of the Vassal/Serfdom days.

(Now lets put ALL OTHER political-religious systems on trial since 1 A.D.)

The establishment of United States of America.

The Printing of individual Bible and mass dissemination of the Gospel.

The subsequent 200 years+ of liberty and freedom and standard of living and opportunity second to none.

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-14   16:04:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: Liberator (#132)

Don't forget thousands of Christian hospitals, orphanages, schools, and universties established throughout the world.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-14   17:42:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: Liberator (#122)

Get over your fetish for the confused Deist Jefferson, your hostility toward 'The Focus on the Family' and the newly minted, sane conservative Texas School board. Time to infuse the young pods with the truth.

Christians: Standing between tyranny and slavery, the sane and insane since 1774. NOT Deists.

Indeed.

"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-14   18:16:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#135. To: Liberator (#132)

Madison is obviously referring to the fifteen centuries Holy Roman Catholic Church rule.

The almost fifteen centuries of legal Christianity Madison referred to is 325-1785, which is almost 15 centuries. He did not limit his remarks to Catholics, and I don't it's justified to read that into it.

He simply did not want religion and government to mix.

___________________________________________________________________________

Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history

James Madison, Detached Memoranda; ca. 1817

press- pubs.uchicago.edu/f...s/amendI_religions64.html

kenh  posted on  2015-02-14   23:18:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: All (#135)

Note - the Madison quote above is a complete sentence. I didn't get the period in when I copied it.

kenh  posted on  2015-02-15   0:23:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#137. To: GarySpFC, redleghunter, kenh, VxH (#133)

Don't forget thousands of Christian hospitals, orphanages, schools, and universties established throughout the world.

Yes, who can forget the deeds, acts, and tenets based on Christian Charity, and taught at Christian-established Universities. Not only in America, but on FIVE CONTINENTS. "Christian Charity" and learning has been embedded into America's character and expectations, thanks to America's majority Christian settlers, educators, and clergy -- those who in large part forged the new nation of America.

It is odd how secular humanists believe they can merely cherry pick certain quotes out of context of certain Founders, and claim their singluar quotes define the total opinion of said founders (Madison in this case.)

These same people totally dismiss and ignore not only the other quotes and overall opinions of Madison (or Jefferson's, OR Adams), but especially ANY which endorse the tenets of Christianity Charity and with it Christian ethics and morals.

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-15   12:20:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: kenh, GarySpFC, redleghunter, VxH (#135)

The almost fifteen centuries of legal Christianity Madison referred to is 325-1785, which is almost 15 centuries. He did not limit his remarks to Catholics, and I don't it's justified to read that into it.

He simply did not want religion and government to mix.

Let's be real here. Although Madison did speak of a "wall of separation," it is evident that the purpose of said "wall" was to prevent Congress from passing a national law to establish a national religion. HELLO.

To your ill-conceived point -- even Christian Founders wanted a religious governance -- why is this news to you? If they had, don't you think the 52 of 56 Christian Founders would have had their way??

If there's ANY such "encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies," it's been the religions/cults of Islam, Secular Humanism, New-Age sects, Masonics, and Atheism which have encroached, swallowed up, and subverted the original spirit of the Bill of Rights and Constitution. The Truth is on our side -- Christianity will NOT be your ilks' whipping boys -- be they Madison or Jefferson.

It is clear neither you or Madison are actually able to put Christianity on trial here (not that Madison actually is) and not especially within the context of the American Founder's near unanimous endorsement of Bible-bases ethics, morality, and virtues of Christianity.

1) I already did the math of "15 centuries" -- I didn't need the dates. But was the entire 1500 years totally oppressive, relative to ongoing governances and previous 4,000 years?

2) The Vatican and it's tenticles of power and authority may have been acting "on behalf of Jesus Christ," but unfortunately for the most part, they used "Jesus Christ" as nothing but a political sledgehammer, for power's sake.

3) It was mostly the persecuted Christians who left Old World Europe, establishing the "New World," where the Protestant Christians became the majority of our Founders, AND from which the tentacles of the Vatican's power could not gain a foothold.

4) At the risk of redundancy, Madison has referring mostly to the 15 centuries of Vatican rule (or shall we also toss in the rule of Islam, Heathens, Atheists, Huns, and Vikings during those 15 centuries?)

And from that same link you so proudly hold up as Madison's definitive opinion of Christianity, from 1785, in Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, the very same James Madison wrote:

"It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe.

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Madison was in the habit of making notes in his personal Bible, wrote this in Acts, Chapter 19:

“Believers who are in a state of grace, have need of the Word of God for their edification and building up therefore implies a possibility of falling. v. 32.

“Grace, it is the free gift of God. Luke. 12. 32-v.32.

“Giver more blessed than the receiver. v. 35.

“To neglect the means for our own preservation is to tempt God: and to trust to them is to neglect Him. v. 3 & Ch. 27. v. 31.

“Humility, the better any man is, the lower thoughts he has of himself. v. 19.

“Ministers to take heed to themselves & their flock. v. 28.

“The Apostles did greater miracles than Christ, in the matter, not manner, of them. v. 11.”

Madison, September of 1773, in a letter to William Bradford, wrote:

“I have sometimes thought there could be no stronger testimony in favor of Religion or against temporal Enjoyments even the most rational and manly than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent Advocates in the cause of Christ, & I wish you may give in your Evidence in this way. Such instances have seldom occurred, therefore they would be more striking and would be instead of a "Cloud of Witnesses."

Source: http://www.faithofourfathers.net/madison.html

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-15   13:30:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#139. To: Liberator, GarySpFc (#137)

Gary hit on the main point early on. The founders and people of mid-late 18th century America were influenced by the First Great Awakening. They had a contempt for state sanctioned church affiliation. Virginia's history of rebelling against Church of England taxes and land rights rubbed the founders the wrong way.

They neither wanted the bishop of Rome let alone the bishop of Canterbury calling the shots. Just ask the Presbyterians of the era:)

"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-15   13:31:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#140. To: redleghunter, GarySpFc (#139) (Edited)

The founders and people of mid-late 18th century America were influenced by the First Great Awakening. They had a contempt for state sanctioned church affiliation. Virginia's history of rebelling against Church of England taxes and land rights rubbed the founders the wrong way.

They neither wanted the bishop of Rome let alone the bishop of Canterbury calling the shots. Just ask the Presbyterians of the era:)

BINGO! On all counts. There was contempt across the board for ANY state-sanctioned church affiliation. The Founders were in agreement on one thing: That NO specific Christian sect was to call any civil shots, whether the authority to tax, enforce laws, or govern. This from Christians of ALL denominations. SINCE DAY ONE. (it didn't mean Christian influence, heritage, and traditions were eventually to be gutted by our ruling Cultist Secular Humanist gubmint either, as today.)

Most people are absolutely ignorant or oblivious of American history, and especially the tumult between various Christian sects by the mid to end of the 18th century. Countless sects were clashing, and causing division and confusion. It was obviously a problem for a fledging unified America, but addressed adroitly by the Christian Founders of those many sects -- tempered by the likes of Franklin and Jefferson.

That the pods have been brainwashed 200 years later to believe the USA is any kind of theocracy is a (dis)credit to secular humanism's steady but sure propaganda and assault on America's Judeo-Christian based standards ethical and moral virtues, and heritage.

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-15   15:24:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#141. To: Liberator (#138)

Let's be real here. Although Madison did speak of a "wall of separation," it is evident that the purpose of said "wall" was to prevent Congress from passing a national law to establish a national religion. HELLO.

To your ill-conceived point -- even Christian Founders wanted a religious governance -- why is this news to you? If they had, don't you think the 52 of 56 Christian Founders would have had their way??

Not sure the point you're making. You say they wanted religious governance, then you say they could have had it if they wanted it. Did they or didn't they?

If there's ANY such "encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies," it's been the religions/cults of Islam, Secular Humanism, New-Age sects, Masonics, and Atheism which have encroached, swallowed up, and subverted the original spirit of the Bill of Rights and Constitution. The Truth is on our side -- Christianity will NOT be your ilks' whipping boys -- be they Madison or Jefferson.

You make no sense. Madison was not anti-Christian nor did I claim he was. He said Christianity had its greatest luster before it got mixed with government. It's a very simple point, he did not want the two to mix.

It is clear neither you or Madison are actually able to put Christianity on trial here (not that Madison actually is) and not especially within the context of the American Founder's near unanimous endorsement of Bible-bases ethics, morality, and virtues of Christianity.

Madison said legal Christianity, not Christianity. Words mean things.

4) At the risk of redundancy, Madison has referring mostly to the 15 centuries of Vatican rule (or shall we also toss in the rule of Islam, Heathens, Atheists, Huns, and Vikings during those 15 centuries?)

Once again, you have no basis to claim Madison was singling out Catholicism. Legal Christianity in Rome didn't begin until 325AD, right? So he clearly was referring to the nearly 15 centuries between 325AD and 1785.

And from that same link you so proudly hold up as Madison's definitive opinion of Christianity, from 1785, in Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, the very same James Madison wrote:

Let me correct your error. I did not say Madison held that view of Christianity and you should not make that claim. He was speaking of legal Christianity, ie the corruption of both religion and government when the two were mixed. Nothing about that was an argument against Christian principles or Christian morality (or Jewish, for that matter )in government.

It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe.

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Link? I want a source for that quote.

kenh  posted on  2015-02-17   14:21:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#142. To: kenh, redleghunter, GarySpFc (#141)

Link? I want a source for that quote.

"It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe." ~ James Madison

In the interest of the truth, I've researched the source (as have obviously you) and found the original quote of Madison's (author David Barton) to be wishful thinking and NOT true.

You say they wanted religious governance, then you say they could have had it if they wanted it. Did they or didn't they?

I'm saying that IF the Christian-signers majority had wanted a Christian governance instead of a secular one, they would have steamrolled a Christian version through. However they clearly envisioned and anticipated problems with it, as the Church of England (Espiscopalian sect) was already extracting taxes to subsidize that specific church. This became the basis of Madison's clever, well crafted (if not somewhat hysterical) opposition piece, 'In Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments', which tactically noted Virgina's mandatory tax to subsidize the Christian Epicopalian sect and church teachings but NOT any others.

Madison was not anti-Christian nor did I claim he was. He said Christianity had its greatest luster before it got mixed with government. It's a very simple point, he did not want the two to mix.

In my opinion, Madison in making his case for 'In Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments' exaggerated the extent and breadth of "Christianity's" blight upon humanity. He stressed all the bad, and ignored all of the good. If we are to take Madison's version of history to heart, there were 15 straight Muslim-esuque centuries of dripping blood at the jihadist hands of "Christianity," which is simply not true, but in the interest of making his point as a lawyer, it served his case.

Let me correct your error. I did not say Madison held that view of Christianity and you should not make that claim. He was speaking of legal Christianity, ie the corruption of both religion and government when the two were mixed.

Well sure -- "legal" in the context that Catholic Popes via Vatican were the final word in law for centuries in Europe, as well as eventually Church of England holding sway, along with the authority of Kings. In world history, either secular humanism OR religion have been the two sources of governmental "authority."

That said, both Jefferson and Madison conspired to quell any "religious" influence in America, with Madison exploiting his 'In Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments' treatise, as well Jefferson's well-known "seperation," and venom targeted at the Bible.

The more one reads, the more one comes to the conclusion that these two are most responsible for the current anti-Christian, anti-Constitution, pro-secular humanist religion that has ironically "mixed with government." It's no secret why liberals and hard-core libertarians have made Jefferson and Madisons their heroes.

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-18   13:06:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#143. To: Liberator (#142)

Link? I want a source for that quote.

"It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe." ~ James Madison In the interest of the truth, I've researched the source (as have obviously you) and found the original quote of Madison's (author David Barton) to be wishful thinking and NOT true.

You say they wanted religious governance, then you say they could have had it if they wanted it. Did they or didn't they?

Seems the controversy stems from late 20th-early 21st century books using secondary sources in books and webpages. The challenge from the secular left is usually 'show us the original.' We know a lot of these original letters are not preserved, so we have to rely on early historian's accounts. Wall Builders did a good piece on this showing what can be confirmed by primary source vs. secondary sources. So the notion is if you don't have a primary source, the quote is unconfirmed. The same standard should apply to both sides.

Below may be something to tell us about Madison.

Madison seems to have a reserved approach to religion and government.

He does not, however, downplay the important role of faith and religion as a foundation of society.

Here is a letter from Madison to Frederick Beasley:

I have duly recd the copy of your little tract on the proofs of the Being & Attributes of God. To do full justice to it, would require not only a more critical attention than I have been able to bestow on it, but a resort to the celebrated work of Dr. Clarke, which I read fifty years ago only, and to that of Dr. Waterland also which I never read.

The reasoning that could satisfy such a mind as that of Clarke, ought certainly not to be slighted in the discussion. And the belief in a God All Powerful wise & good, is so essential to the moral order of the World & to the happiness of man, that arguments which enforce it cannot be drawn from too many sources nor adapted with too much solicitude to the different characters & capacities to be impressed with it.

The belief in a God All Powerful wise & good, is so essential to the moral order of the World & to the happiness of man, that arguments which enforce it cannot be drawn from too many sources.

But whatever effect may be produced on some minds by the more abstract train of ideas which you so strongly support, it will probably always be found that the course of reasoning from the effect to the cause, "from Nature to Nature's God," Will be the more universal & more persuasive application.

The finiteness of the human understanding betrays itself on all subjects, but more especially when it contemplates such as involve infinity. What may safely be said seems to be, that the infinity of time & space forces itself on our conception, a limitation of either being inconceivable; that the mind prefers at once the idea of a self-existing cause to that of an infinite series of cause & effect, which augments, instead of avoiding the difficulty; and that it finds more facility in assenting to the self-existence of an invisible cause possessing infinite power, wisdom & goodness, than to the self-existence of the universe, visibly destitute of those attributes, and which may be the effect of them. In this comparative facility of conception & belief, all philosophical Reasoning on the subject must perhaps terminate. But that I may not get farther beyond my depth, and without the resources which bear you up in fathoming efforts, I hasten to thank you for the favour which has made me your debtor, and to assure you of my esteem & my respectful regards.

http://www.beliefnet.com/resourcelib/docs/8/Letter_from_James_Madison_to_Frederi ck_Beasley_1.html

"For holy Scripture establishes a rule to our teaching, that we dare not “be wiser than we ought;” but be wise, as he himself says, “unto soberness, according as unto each God hath allotted the measure of faith." (Augustine of Hippo (354–430)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-18   14:14:19 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#144. To: kenh, GarySpFc (#143)

Sorry meant to ping you gentlemen as well.

"For holy Scripture establishes a rule to our teaching, that we dare not “be wiser than we ought;” but be wise, as he himself says, “unto soberness, according as unto each God hath allotted the measure of faith." (Augustine of Hippo (354–430)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-18   14:20:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#145. To: GarySpFC, liberator (#124) (Edited)

" “Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence and father of the University of Virginia.” "

Read it, weep, and blow it out yer fallible and uninspired arse, liberator.

VxH  posted on  2015-02-18   19:34:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#146. To: VxH, GarySpFC (#145)

Read it, weep, and blow it out yer fallible and uninspired arse, liberator.

Did you even read Gary's post?

Jefferson's libertarian "Grand Experiment" was an epic fail. Why? Because the special 14 students chosen at his own college were by design left to their own devices, devoid of Christian ethics, morals, disciple and virtue.

“Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence and father of the University of Virginia.”

If you'd read any of the material upthread, you'd have realized that although Jefferson was the main contributor of the DoI, the final draft had to be edited and re-edited by Franklin and Livingstone before it was sufficiently presentable for what were 52 of 56 Christian signers of this now defunct, subverted, obsolete document.

Look -- if you're happy that Tommy J's headstone inscription made an old man happy before Judgement Day, who am I to judge? :-/

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-18   21:14:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#147. To: Liberator (#146) (Edited)

Who is that, swearing his ETERNAL HOSTILITY to every form of tyranny over the mind of man?

Odd the Architects chose to thus memorialize a mere "secretary", and the ideas they chose him to represent - Ehh Comrade Collectivist "liberator"?

VxH  posted on  2015-02-18   21:30:41 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#148. To: Liberator (#146)

"Jefferson was the main contributor of the DoI"

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-18   21:14:52 ET
http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=37828&Disp=146#C146

 

Jefferson was playing stenographer for Sherman, Livingstone, and Franklin

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-14 14:30:31 ET

http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=37828&Disp=125#C125

 

Which is it Mr. steaming pile of Fallible and Uninspired parrot guano?

VxH  posted on  2015-02-18   21:55:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#149. To: redleghunter (#0) (Edited)

"When the Berlin wall came down, everybody said: 'We won,'" Graham remembered. "And secularism came. And secularism and communism are the same thing. They're godless. They're antichrist."

What does Graham have to say about the fact that the KGB began as the Secret Police of the Russian Orthodox State-establishment?

www.google.com/#q=oprichn...gb+secret+police+orthodox

Meanwhile, Christ was anti-RELIGION -- especially the state-established kind.

VxH  posted on  2015-02-18   22:02:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#150. To: VxH (#148)

Who are you? Bill O'Reilly:)

"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-02-18   22:38:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#151. To: Liberator (#131) (Edited)

...is Jefferson an obsessed crusader, opining on a personal thesis regarding the threat of Christianity to the governance of the new republic? OR does he sincerely fear that the freedom of common man and governance will eventually be usurped by "religion," who he sees as vulnerable prey to the wiles of predator pastors and ministries?

I think Jefferson saw himself as a liberated American infidel and why the words "AND INFIDEL OF EVERY DENOMINATION" were deliberately chosen in his explanation of the wording of the Virginia Act.

And the Truth Shall Make You Free.

VxH  posted on  2015-02-20   11:28:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#152. To: VxH (#151)

I think Jefferson saw himself as a liberated American infidel and why the words "AND INFIDEL OF EVERY DENOMINATION" were deliberately chosen in his explanation of the wording of the Virginia Act.

Maybe...

Full Definition of INFIDEL

1
:  one who is not a Christian or who opposes Christianity
2
a :  an unbeliever with respect to a particular religion
b :  one who acknowledges no religious belief
3
:  a disbeliever in something specified or understood

Kind of odd wording any way you slice it -- even if it doesn't have quite the same connotation as today. With enough smoke and mirrors and sufficient ambiguity and subterfuge, wordsmen like TJ and Madison pulled it off.

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-20   22:36:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#153. To: redleghunter, kenh, GarySpFc (#143)

Madison seems to have a reserved approach to religion and government.

He does not, however, downplay the important role of faith and religion as a foundation of society.

A *very* reserved approach indeed.

Madison didn't downplay faith and religion nearly as much as he repeated the same phrases for complimentary effect (IMO.)

The rest of the letter seems to be a mugging of Beasley with fists of words and abstract thought. (Is everyone sure they were friends, lol?) Couldn't he have been more clear and concise and condensed his opinion into two sorter sentences (IF Madison wanted to be clear - and he didn't.) "Infinity" seems to be his nemesis ;-)

"The finiteness of the human understanding betrays itself on all subjects,but more especially when it contemplates such as involve infinity." "What may safely be said seems to be, that the infinity of time & space forces itself on our conception, a limitation of either being inconceivable; that the mind prefers at once the idea of a self-existing cause to that of an infinite series of cause & effect, which augments, instead of avoiding the difficulty; and that it finds more facility in assenting to the self-existence of an invisible cause possessing infinite power, wisdom & goodness, than to the self-existence of the universe, visibly destitute of those attributes, and which may be the effect of them. In this comparative facility of conception & belief, all philosophical Reasoning on the subject must perhaps terminate. But that I may not get farther beyond my depth, and without the resources which bear you up in fathoming efforts, I hasten to thank you for the favour which has made me your debtor, and to assure you of my esteem & my respectful regards.

William F. Buckeley: HUH??

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-20   23:04:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#154. To: Liberator (#152)

Full Definition of INFIDEL

"the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and infidel of every denomination."

It's not odd at all.

VxH  posted on  2015-03-07   16:03:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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