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Title: Chris Kyle, Author of American Sniper, Was a War Hero. He Was Also A Liar
Source:
slate.com
URL Source: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_ ... _lies_about_jesse_ventura.html
Published: Jan 20, 2015
Author: Mark Joseph Stern
Post Date: 2015-02-01 03:21:06 by Pericles
Keywords: None
Views: 32067
Comments: 108
American Liar
Why Jesse Ventura is likely to collect millions from Chris Kyle’s American Sniper.
By Mark Joseph Stern
Chris Kyle, author of the runaway best-seller American Sniper, was a military hero who killed 160 people during his four tours of duty in Iraq and is now the subject of an Oscar-nominated blockbuster. He was also a fabulist. Before his tragic murder in 2013, Kyle told a number of extremely dubious stories. In one tale, Kyle claimed he killed two carjackers at a gas station southwest of Dallas, and that his driver’s license directed local police officers who questioned him to contact the Department of Defense. Kyle also claimed he traveled to post-Katrina New Orleans with a sniper friend, set up his gun atop the Superdome, and picked off dozens of armed looters.
The 160 kills are confirmed by the Pentagon. But there are absolutely no records of, or witnesses to, the latter stories. They are, perhaps intentionally, unverifiable. But it wasn’t these fantastical tales of vigilante justice that got Kyle into legal trouble. It was another, much less exciting story—one that wasn’t just unverifiable, but verifiably false. That tale, conveyed in a mere three pages of American Sniper, has put Kyle’s widow on the hook for $1.845 million in damages. And it may soon make Kyle’s publishers wish they approached the veteran’s claims with great deal of skepticism.
Kyle’s legal difficulties emerged from a subchapter of American Sniper titled “Punching Out Scruff Face.” In it, Kyle describes beating up a former Navy SEAL (“Scruff Face”) after the SEAL claims American soldiers deserved to die in Iraq. Early drafts of the book identified the SEAL as Jesse Ventura, former governor of Minnesota and famed professional wrestler, but Kyle’s publishers removed the name for fear of a lawsuit. Nonetheless, in a radio interview following the book’s release, Kyle admitted that “Scruff Face” was Ventura, and he repeated the claim soon after on The O’Reilly Factor. American Sniper shot to the top of Amazon’s best-seller list, becoming a smash hit for its publisher, HarperCollins, selling more than 1.5 million copies by July of 2014.
There was, however, a problem: The Ventura story wasn’t true, and Ventura meant to prove it. So he took Kyle to trial, suing him—and, after he died, his estate—for defamation and unjust enrichment. In the United States, defamation cases are extremely difficult to win, thanks to the First Amendment. When allegedly defamatory statements pertain to a public figure, the plaintiff mustn’t just prove those statements were false. He has to prove the defendant made those statements with “actual malice”—that is, knowledge that they were false or with “reckless disregard” for their falsity. Very few defamation plaintiffs can make it over the high bar of actual malice.
Ventura made it. On July 29, 2014, a federal jury returned from six days of deliberations to award Ventura $1.845 million in damages—specifically, $500,000 for defamation and about $1.345 million for unjust enrichment. (In other words, Kyle unjustly profited from defaming Ventura, and so his estate must give Ventura some of that money.) Kyle’s widow, Taya Kyle, promptly filed for “judgment as a matter of law,” asking the trial judge to reverse’s the jury’s verdict because the jury clearly got it wrong. Failing that, she asked for an entirely new trial. The judge denied both requests, defending the jury’s verdict as legally and factually justifiable. Kyle’s widow is currently appealing the decision; her odds of winning appear quite low.
...snip...
This suit is the second of Ventura’s one-two punch, and from here, it looks like a knockout. During the first trial, Ventura’s attorneys uncovered records of HarperCollins’ negligence in fact-checking Kyle’s book, as well as evidence that HarperCollins specifically touted the Ventura story to drum up publicity. Kyle’s ghostwriters spoke with only one person who claimed to have witnessed the fight, a friend of Kyle’s who told a different version of the story that lacked Ventura’s offensive remarks. No one from HarperCollins contacted Ventura or his representatives to verify the story. And though Kyle claimed Ventura appeared at a SEAL graduation afterward with a black eye—where “everybody was laughing” and asking “Who beat the shit out of him?”—HarperCollins never asked a member of the graduating class whether they saw Ventura’s injury. (A photograph from the event shows a clear image of Ventura—with no black eye.)
It gets worse for HarperCollins. Despite the tenuous source of the Ventura story, HarperCollins quickly saw it as a publicity gold mine. After Kyle identified “Scruff Face” as Ventura in a radio interview on The Opie & Anthony Show, HarperCollins editor Peter Hubbard wrote in an email that the publicity from the story was “priceless.” HarperCollins publicist Sharon Rosenblum described the Ventura kerfuffle as “hot hot hot,” immediately arranging for Kyle to retell the tale on The O’Reilly Factor. Sales of American Sniper—which, up to that point, were fairly modest—spiked dramatically, apparently in conjunction with interest in the Ventura story. After the O’Reilly appearance, Ventura publicly denied Kyle’s accusations. Yet Rosenblum arranged for Kyle to tell the story again on The Opie & Anthony Show, and HarperCollins printed several new editions of the book that still featured the “Scruff Face” section. (It was finally removed after Ventura won his suit.)
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#12. To: Pericles (#11)
(Edited)
If you had more facts and fewer excuses, you would be less pitiable. If you were smart you could google the story. I did. I didn't say the article didn't exist. I only pointed you that you were bright enough to link it properly. Would you like some help?
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
weaponsman.com/?p=17042 Taya Kyle and the kids are now broke because of Ventura! I hope someone is setting up a fund for them!” I don’t know where she got this strawman, because I haven’t seen it anywhere else. If someone said that, he or she is stupid. If Delgado made it up, Delgado is dishonest. We already know Delgado is dishonest, but we’re willing to be convinced she saw something like this from some dumb-ass, somewhere. It sure hasn’t characterized discussion in the public and private forums of the SOF world, at least the subset of them known to us.
http://weaponsman.com/?p=17042 From your own source. LOL!
Clearly I am making you look up articles. So making you read is not a bad thing in my book as you follow my wake.
Already knew about it. And you were so eager to pat yourself on the back. You're not very bright.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
A comment by a poster, DUH! You aren't very bright.
"The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts
The last claim is highly debatable if referring to the expat.
Wow, you are old. Any ability to use modern references not from the early 90s?
So you troll on how the link is working or not? Sad.
Is that a cry for help, lefty?
No feeding of trolls.
How often does a big braggart, notorious liar, and conspiracy-monger like Ventura actually prevail in a defamation case? Never. Except this time. Sometimes the courts do seem to insist that certain principles of law should be upheld, even if the public hates it. One notorious liar sues another notorious liar and wins. Where exactly is the downside? : )
Anything a homosexual says you have to verify. They are not to be trusted. I mean how can you trust someone who lies to themselves. The author is not credible.
Kyle wasn't cross examined. I used to give Ventura a little respect as I didn't agree with him much but he made a few points. I think Kyle kicked his ass.
I'm more in your corner. But to be honest none of us really know the truth because we weren't there. We just have opinions.
Then why no black eye in the grad photos of Jesse. Kyle insisted he had a black eye from the fight. Trying to fight a photograph like that is why Kyle's estate lost the case. And the only reason to include that story was to profit from publishing lies about Ventura. If the black eye is a lie, the rest of it becomes that much more suspect. And that is why Ventura, unsympathetic kook that he is, is going to prevail. It's not like the court is going to have any Ventura fanbois in it.
I used to give Ventura a little respect as I didn't agree with him much but he made a few points. I think Kyle kicked his ass. Kyle made a video deposition that lasted 5 hours for this case and in his own video deposition he got his own story wrong. The Jury saw that.
There is actual chain of evidence where the Harper Collins book promotion agent is said to tell Kyle work up the Ventura angle when the book was not selling and claiming that the attack on Ventura - identifying Ventura by name on interviews is what sold the book.
Woh. That really tipped the case in Ventura's favor. The jury almost had to find for him after that. I had no idea there was such blatant evidence against Kyle and his publisher.
www.sodahead.com/question/feed/4688022/atom/ Jesse Ventura Slams Chris Kyle, Says He was No Hero Because He was a Liar - But Jesse Has Done Some Lying of His Own That a**hole Jesse Ventura is in the news again, from his home in Baja he is saying he won't go to see American Sniper, that Chris Kyle is no hero because he is a liar. http://www.aol.com/article/2015/...kyle-is-no-hero/21136316/ It seems Jesse is quite the liar himself. In his own book, "No Time to Bleed," he constantly calls himself a SEAL, but won't answer questions about his time in Vietnam. From what I've read, his only decoration was the National Defense Service medal (which every recruit gets coming out of boot camp) and the Vietnam Service medal (given to every sailor who was on as ship in the waters off Vietnam), . Here's an excellent article by a former SEAL/UDT officer about the difference between the two, and whether Ventura was ever a SEAL. It seems that it is very unlikely he ever saw action in Vietnam. He went through UDT training in 1970 and the war ended in February, 1973. He was assigned to UDT 12 and none of the guys who served in that team remember him doing duty in Vietnam - no wonder he won't talk about it. Here's the cite and a few excerpts that are on point as to whether Ventura was ever a Navy SEAL: http://cursor.org/stories/seal_or_udt.htm Trainees for the SEALs and UDTs completed the same fabled basic course conducted on the Strand; however, during and after the Vietnam War, SEALs underwent specialized training at such places as the U.S. Army Ranger and Special Forces schools. Frogmen never went near Rangers or Snake-eaters. The difference in training reflected the difference in missions: SEALs in platoons of 12 to 14 men went looking for the VC and NVA in the swamps, paddies, and jungles of Vietnam; UDTs in platoons of 22 men conducted hydrographic recons in advance of actual or anticipated Marine amphibious landings. Most of these recons were "admin," or unopposed by the enemy. UDTs mainly floated around the South China Sea on ships with Marine battalion landing teams as part of what's called an amphibious ready group or ARG. In recognition of the differing missions, the Navy classified frogmen as "5321s" and SEALs as "5326s." The SEALs and frogmen also had different unit cartoon totems: Freddie the Frog and Sammy the Seal. These are not distinctions without differences. No one from UDT during the Vietnam War would dare misrepresent himself as a SEAL. Consider this: SEAL Team One, with roughly the same number of men as UDT 12, had 34 killed during the war. I knew many of them. UDT 12 lost but a single man. 34:1. . . . . Still in search of an answer to the question of whether Jesse had ever been a SEAL or a frogman in the shit, I obtained a roster of UDT 12 that included his name. Looking down the roster, I saw Jesse and I had mutual acquaintances, one of whom was Artie Ruiz. Although Artie had never been a SEAL, he had been one of those rare frogmen who certainly had been in the shit. All you need do was take one look at his back, pockmarked with old shrapnel wounds, to know he'd been there. Artie had been dinged while single-handedly keeping the VC from swarming his disabled patrol boat. Every soul on board save one had been either killed or seriously wounded in an ambush. Artie, who is about the size of Audie Murphy and as soft-spoken, fought off the enemy with a handheld M-60 machine gun at a range of 25 yards. He got a Bronze Star to go with his Heart. Should have been a Navy Cross, but enlisted guys don't have a strong lobby with the Awards Board like officers do. I called Artie at his home in National City. "Yes, I knew Jesse and Jan," Artie said. "They were the Janos brothers. Jesse in those days was known as Jim 'the Dirty' Janos and his brother was Jan 'the Clean.' "Jan was a four-oh sailor. Squared away. Jim was a great guy, but he didn't care much about having a spiffy uniform or regulation haircut. He didn't believe much in showers, either. "Jim belonged to a motorcycle gang in I.B. The Mongols or Mescaleros or something. I'm not sure. But I remember how he used to come roaring up Highway 75 every morning before quarters, wearing his colors and torn Levi's, reared back on his Harley hog. He'd zoom around the asphalt grinder, do a wheelie or two, then park and shift into the uniform of the day - UDT swim trunks and blue 'n' gold T-shirt." Changing one set of colors for another? "You could say that. Then, after a day of fun in the sun, he'd shift again and tear up the road back to I.B. and the In Spot, a tittie-flop bar where he worked as a bouncer. Jim maintained order, but not too much. You had to get really outa line for Jim to toss you. But toss you he could. Jim wasn't as buff then as when he became Jesse 'the Body' Ventura, but he was on his way." Jesse ever in a SEAL Team? "Oh, no. Spent his entire time in Team 12. Never had a SEAL NEC." Could you explain about an NEC, what it means? "Means Navy enlisted classification. It's a code all enlisted guys have that tells what their warfare specialty is. UDT guys were 5321s and SEALs were 5326s. Had to serve in a SEAL Team for at least six months before you qualified as a 26." Jesse ever in the shit like you or Stony? "Oh, no. At least not that I heard of, and I probably would have known if he'd been in anything serious. But I don't hold that against him. He was a good teammate. Just a little loco." . . . . The talk turned to Jesse. I asked Ed if he'd heard of "the Body." "Yeah, I've seen him on TV. Quite a guy. I like his politics and I understand he was a SEAL. I didn't know him. Did you?" I told him what I knew of Jesse. "I am sorry to hear that. If he was only in UDT 12, he sure as hell wasn't a SEAL. Big difference between being in UDT 12 and SEAL One." I asked Ed if he thought Jesse could have received a transfer from UDT 12 to SEAL One during the war. "Sure. Could probably have put his chit in at morning quarters and been standing tall on the SEAL grinder by afternoon quarters." Quite by chance, I recently happened upon another old SEAL in a downtown deli. We'd been in Nam together and in UDT 11 after the war. He was one of several former SEALs who came to UDT 11 while I commanded the Team during the late '70s. Some of these SEALs referred to themselves as "the Junkyard Dogs." Not a sun-worshiper or bodybuilder in the bunch. But lots of Navy Crosses, Silver and Bronze Stars, and Purple Hearts - none cheap. My friend, whom I'll call Jake, is active in the retired community and said Jesse had been the main topic of discussion during a recent meeting of an organization called Old Frogs and SEALs. "Guys are of two minds," Jake said. "Some don't think he should be holding himself out as a SEAL, while others think it's okay. Say it's good publicity." What do you think? "I think the Teams got all the publicity they need. Don't need any more. I'm reading a book, Stolen Valor, that exposes men who lie or exaggerate about having fought in Nam with elite units. That's what Jesse's doing when he claims to have been a SEAL. He's trading on the valor of others. He hasn't earned the right to call himself a SEAL." So there it is. Does Jesse trade on the valor of others when he pretends to have been a SEAL? He styles himself an honest, uncomplicated man: what you see is what you get. He should set the record straight. Hell, nothing to be ashamed of about having been a frog. UDTs have a noble tradition. When Jesse was a frog, they jumped out of airplanes, locked out of submarines, and blew shit up. But frogs didn't often fight and die like SEALs did in Nam. 34:1." You decide - Chris Kyle received 2 Silver Stars, 5 Bronze Stars with Combat V, two Purple Hearts, one Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medal, and two Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medals, while Jesse Ventura received a National Defense Service Medal and a Vietnam Service Medal -- which one is the Hero?
Jesse Ventura was awarded $500,000 on his defamation claim. He was awarded $1,345,477.25 on his unjust enrichment claim. When Chris Kyle died, the executor of his estate was substituted as the defendant. That was his wife. The district court reviewed the earlier proceedings in the document below before denying the estate's motion for judgment as a matter of law or a new trial. Defendant's appeal is pending before the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals. Publisher Harper Collins said it would remove the offending "Scruff Face" content from future editions of the book. http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-mnd-0_12-cv-00472/pdf/USCOURTS-mnd-0_12-cv-00472-2.pdf UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT Civ. No. 12-472 (RHK/JJK) MEMORANDUM OPINION AND ORDER Jesse Ventura a/k/a James G. Janos, David Bradley Olsen, Court J. Anderson, John N. Bisanz, Jr., Henson & Efron, P.A., Minneapolis, Minnesota, for Plaintiff. John P. Borger, Leita Walker, Charles F. Webber, Amy M. Gernon, Holly A. Miller, Faegre Baker Daniels LLP, Minneapolis, Minnesota, for Defendant. This matter is before the Court on Defendant’s Motion for Judgment as a Matter of Law or New Trial (Doc. No. 404). For the reasons that follow, the Motion will be denied. BACKGROUND Plaintiff is a well-known former wrestler, actor, and Governor of Minnesota, who served as a member of the Navy Special Forces Underwater Demolition/SEAL Teams during the Vietnam War. Chris Kyle was a Navy SEAL sniper and author of an autobiography entitled American Sniper, the Autobiography of the Most Lethal Sniper in U.S. Military History (hereafter, “American Sniper”). The book, which was released - - - CASE 0:12-cv-00472-RHK-JJK Document 415 Filed 11/26/14 Page 2 of 24 January 3, 2012, reached number one on the New York Times’ Bestseller list by January 29, 2012, and in June 2012, Warner Brothers purchased the rights to a film adaptation. In American Sniper, Kyle wrote a subchapter captioned “Punching Out Scruff Face” about an alleged altercation with Plaintiff. According to Kyle, the encounter took place at McP’s, a bar in Coronado, California, on October 12, 2006, during a wake for Kyle’s comrade, Mike Monsoor, who was killed in the line of duty. The subchapter reads as follows: AFTER THE FUNERAL WE WENT TO A LOCAL BAR FOR THE WAKE proper. As always, there were a bunch of different things going on at our favorite nightspot, including a small party for some older SEAL’s and UDT members who were celebrating the anniversary of their graduation. Among them was a celebrity I’ll call Scruff Face. Scruff served in the military; most people seem to believe he was a SEAL. As far as I know, he was in the service during the Vietnam conflict but not actually in the war. I was sitting there with Ryan and told him that Scruff was holding court with some of his buddies. “I’d really like to meet him,” Ryan said. “Sure.” I got up and went over to Scruff and introduced myself. “Mr. Scruff Face, I have a young SEAL over here who’s just come back from Iraq. He’s been injured but he’d really like to meet you.” Well, Scruff kind of blew us off. Still, Ryan really wanted to meet him, so I brought him over. Scruff acted like he couldn’t be bothered. All right. We went back over to our side of the bar and had a few more drinks. In the meantime, Scruff started running his mouth about the war and everything and anything he could connect to it. President Bush was an asshole. We were only over there because Bush wanted to show up his father. We were doing the wrong thing, killing men and women and children and murdering. And on and on. Scruff said he hates America and that’s why he moved to Baja California. 9/11 was a conspiracy. And on and on some more. The guys were getting upset. Finally, I went over and tried to get him to cool it. - - - CASE 0:12-cv-00472-RHK-JJK Document 415 Filed 11/26/14 Page 3 of 24 “We’re all here in mourning,” I told him. “Can you just cool it? Keep it down.” “You deserve to lose a few,” he told me. Then he bowed up as if to belt me. I was uncharacteristically level-headed at that moment. “Look,” I told him, “why don’t we just step away from each other and go on our way?” Scruff bowed up again. This time he swung. Being level-headed and calm can last only so long. I laid him out. Tables flew. Stuff happened. Scruff Face ended up on the floor. I left. Quickly. I have no way of knowing for sure, but rumor has it he showed up at the BUD/S graduation with a black eye. While not naming Plaintiff in print, Kyle confirmed in television, radio, and print interviews that “Scruff Face” was Plaintiff. In early January 2012, Kyle appeared on the Opie & Anthony Show, a talk-radio program, and the O’Reilly Factor, a talk show, retelling the above-quoted story about Plaintiff and repeating his alleged statement, “You deserve to lose a few guys.” The story also appeared on FOX News. Plaintiff commenced the instant action against Kyle in February 2012, asserting claims of defamation, misappropriation, and unjust enrichment. Kyle moved for partial summary judgment in the fall of 2012, but his Motion was denied. In February 2013, Kyle was killed by a fellow veteran, against whom criminal charges are currently pending in Texas. His wife was appointed executrix of his estate and substituted as the Defendant in this action in July 2013. She, too, moved for summary judgment at the conclusion of discovery, but her Motion also was denied. The case then proceeded to a jury trial in July 2014 on the three claims asserted in the Complaint. As the unjust-enrichment claim was an equitable one, the Court employed the jury in an advisory capacity only as to that claim. See Fed. R. Civ. P. - - - CASE 0:12-cv-00472-RHK-JJK Document 415 Filed 11/26/14 Page 4 of 24 39(c)(1). The jury delivered a split verdict on the first two claims, finding for Plaintiff on the defamation claim (and awarding him $500,000 in damages) and for Defendant on the misappropriation claim. The jury also found in Plaintiff’s favor on the unjust-enrichment claim and assessed $1,345,477.25 in damages. The Court later adopted the jury’s verdict on the unjust-enrichment claim as its own. (See Doc. No. 391.) Defendant now argues she is entitled to judgment as a matter of law, or alternatively a new trial, on the defamation and unjust-enrichment claims. Her contentions are addressed in turn below. ANALYSIS [snip] The following provides an insight to the thoughts of the jury. http://www.startribune.com/local/269697941.html Article by: RANDY FURST , Star Tribune Key defense evidence may have shifted opinions the other way. [excerpt] Jurors had to decide the validity of the account, including the comments attributed to Ventura, that the United States was “killing men, women and children and murdering” in Iraq, that he “hates America” and that SEALS “deserve to lose a few.” While the former governor has made “outrageous” statements in the past, the juror could not believe the former governor would talk like that “at a wake for a fallen Navy SEAL.” Said the juror, “It might have been something along those lines or misinterpreted. It was hard for me to believe that you ‘deserve to lose a few’ is a direct quote.” The juror also found it compelling that the photos of Ventura taken in the days after the alleged barroom incident showed no bruises. Kyle, the juror pointed out, was over 6 feet tall, weighed 200 pounds and was in excellent condition, and the idea that he could punch Ventura and not leave a facial mark was difficult to grasp. If Ventura produced verified and time relevant photos of himself without bruising, I would find his evidence persuasive. Blood thinners cause one to exhibit bruises after very little bumping or hitting because it inhibits the clotting process. There are some of the pictures of Ventura that the jury saw here: They clearly show no injuries on Ventura's face, which is probably the deciding factor in whom the jury believed. Ventura's an ass and loud-mouthed idiot, but I'm afraid I agree with the jury that Kyle's story is less than believable. As a general matter, I was doubtful when Kyle claimed Ventura said, among a bunch of SEALs, “You deserve to lose a few.” That just seems out of character coming from the mouth of any SEAL/UDT member at any time. Snopes.com has a file on the three mentioned claims of Chirs Kyle; the alleged altercation with Jesse Ventura, the alleged shooting from the Superdome, and the alleged hijacking incident. http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/kyleclaims.asp Claim: American Sniper subject Chris Kyle shot dozens of looters after Hurricane Katrina, killed two attempted carjackers, and punched Jesse Ventura in the face. MOSTLY FALSE. [snip] - - - Kyle's widow claimed they planned to so donate. Had they done so, there would have been little estate for Ventura to claim over $1M from. http://www.hlntv.com/article/2015/01/26/chris-kyle-american-sniper-facts
Which is why I said earlier that I would have to see proof that "all proceeds went to charity". People hear that and just stop asking questions apparently. Which is why these SEAL profiteers and their publishers and agents use this tactic. Kyle's book was floundering. No one was interested. So he ginned up some libels against Ventura, a few lies about killing two guys at a gas station, and his obvious lies about joining up with a SEAL buddy to snipe armed looters in NOLA during Katrina. And Fox News played a major role in promoting Kyle and his lies about Ventura. There is a reason for all this free book advertising. They are all Murdoch-owned. And William Morrow was the publisher of American Sniper. It's a Murdoch tabloid-style scam, start to finish. The marketing plan seems to have been to attract attention from a largely uninterested public. So Willam Morrow, Kyle's agent, and Murdoch's FNC all worked in tandem to promote the libels against Ventura, just to gin up controversy about it. The Left predictably fell for this strategy and created more controversy on Twitter/Facebook. And a movie destined for obscurity becomes a hit due solely to the controversy. We should never forget that Murdoch's real background is his expertise in yellow journalism and tabloids. And using his broad media empire to the full extent. He operates this way internationally, not just in the States.
I see above they are trying to claim now that Ventura is not a real "SEAL" - he is though.
Again, I think Kyle is being used by the FOX group for money and also for the politics of the whole Iraq war. Even now you have people on here defending the war and even claiming Saddam still had WMD! I mean that floors me. They old "smuggled into Syria" fantasy is alive and well. Bush himself stating there were no WMD is just ignored or rationalized. Is it because they can't admit being wrong? That they can't admit they were fooled by the people they were defending on the websites?
Yeah, deep denial. We shouldn't be so surprised. People irrationally reject such blatant contradictions on many topics. Bush and Cheney could slap them in the face viciously and yell "There was no WMD and Saddam didn't attack us on 9/11". And they would still mumble these same denials. And there is a likely explanation. As with the Obama voters in 2012 who should have turned on him because he is such a lousy ineffective and lawless president, there is such a thing as avoidance of buyer's remorse. And people who got sold on the Iraq invasion in that way are often working from guilt over supporting that doomed effort which had such a tragic ending for many young American soldiers who were killed or horribly maimed for life. So, to avoid acknowledging their own complicity and foolishness in being stampeded by Bush and the neocons, they flee into these fantasies and deep denial over the Iraq invasion and the WMD and 9/11. To do otherwise would be to admit their own responsibility for those wrecked and destroyed soldiers as well as the vast disaster that has unfolded across the Mideast as a result of regime change policy and its newer cousin, Arab Spring. Well, it is an explanation of sorts, eh? I guess I should have just said that people often refuse to admit they were wrong, even to themselves and even if they do know the truth and just prefer to lie to others and to themselves.
He was UDT 12 when he was in. UDT started in WW II and lasted through the early Eighties. SEALs started around 1965. Ventura was in UDT in the mid-Seventies. Both groups shared the same harsh BUDS training. The SEALs got a lot more and much broader training than the WW II style UDT guys did who were in the business of mining ships and ports and seaside factories and warehouses and being specialists in amphibious landings. Which is what Ventura's training for UDT was for. Others who did go on to serve in Vietnam did support amphibious landings most often. Ventura was only part of UDT 12, never the SEALs. I think there is some confusion over the overlap between the two programs as SEALs started small and grew to overtake and finally absorb the UDT organization over 20 years. And they always did share the same core training program. So UDTs do get included in ex-SEAL activities even if they weren't ever actual SEALs. Because they all did the terrifyng BUDS training. A very exclusive club. Anyway, that is my understanding of the UDT/SEAL timeline and when Ventura was in UDT.
Really? I thought the Navy had done away with UDT by the late 60's. SEALs started around 1965. I went to jump school with sailors wearing SEAL team patches on their fatigues in 1964. I had no idea what SEALS were,so I asked them about it. They were former UDT members who were transitioning over to the SEAL teams. Guys in the early to mid-20's that were already E-6's. That was rare in 64. Ventura was in UDT in the mid-Seventies. Maybe early 70's,but he was still on active duty with a UDT in the Philippines while the VN war was going on and the Navy was sending SEALS to the Delta in VN because he was asked to volunteer for a SEAL team,which included a 6 month tour in VN,and refused to volunteer.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
FWIW: Wiki: "In 1983, after additional SEAL training, the UDTs were re-designated as SEAL Teams or Swimmer Delivery Vehicle Teams (SDVTs). SDVTs have since been re-designated SEAL Delivery Vehicle Teams." Apparently, they still had at least a few UDT units active until '83 when the SEALs finally absorbed them. That sounds consistent with other pieces I've read about him. Not exactly a star-spangled military career as these things go.
I likewise ran into SEALS in the Sixties. After my active duty time I hooked up with a SF Reserve Unit. One of the members was a former SEAL instructor, and needless to say we learned how to swim. I'm not referring to is 3 or 4 laps around the pool, but 3 or 4 hours of continuous swimming the first night. I thought my arms were going to drop off.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
Marcus Luttrell Reacts To Jesse Ventura Verdict In the video above, Luttrell, a Kyle buddy and fellow SEAL states flat out that Ventura is considered a "SEAL" alum and wears their Golden Trident. Also, you can see on his face despite the FOX girl trying to get Luttrel to attack Ventura that Luttrell realizes that Kyle lied and Ventura was right and the best think now is to let the issue go away in silence.
Monica Crowley is one of the more wretched FNC gals. Notice how she plugs Lone Survivor for him, just like all the FNC tools have done with that movie and with American Sniper. Luttrell looks like he has some severe psychiatric problems. Disorganized thinking. I think they've got him hopped up on psychiatric drugs like antipsychotics.
[TC #35] And William Morrow was the publisher of American Sniper. William Morrow has been sold several times and is an imprint of HarperCollins. The court documents make clear that the actual publisher is HarperCollins. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Morrow_and_Company http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-mnd-0_12-cv-00472/pdf/USCOURTS-mnd-0_12-cv-00472-2.pdf CASE 0:12-cv-00472-RHK-JJK Document 415 Filed 11/26/14 Page 22 of 24 HarperCollins is the publisher; it is a William Morrow imprint. http://www.harpercollins.com/9780062290793/american-sniper ISBN: 9780062290793
Nice sleuthing. I still think you have access to a few legal resources the rest of us don't. And you know how to use them. : ) I think Ventura must have had some pretty competent lawyers.
nolu chan survived that Ukrainian real estate dentist's attacks?
That could be but I wanted to point out he did call Ventura a "SEAL" so it seems the only doubt is amongst those trying to tare down any crediblity Ventura has because he was so anti-Bush and thus public neocon online posting enemy #1. If Ventura was pro war the very same attackers of Ventura's SEAL Bonafides would be proclaiming him the greatest SEAL ever.
There are 205 homes in our gated community, and all had wood roofs. Previously we had never had a problem with the racoons, but that changed 3 years ago, when they started attacking the roofs almost every night. The situation was out of control, and night they would tear into two or three roofs. Roof repairs were running $150 to $500 each, and some of the retirees were clearly distressed. At a board meeting I agreed to take on the project, and the association purchased 4 traps for me to use. Racoons are extremely smart, and trapping them is not easy. I will not go into all the problems, but will say they are one of the meanest animals I have ever encountered. You can't take them out into the country and drop them off, because they will come back from 40 miles away. Your only option is to dispose of them, with a 22, which presents a problem because it's illegal to discharge a firearm within the city limits. Animal control was no help, because they were taking the animals half a mile away and releasing them. The raccoons were back home before me. Finally my buddy who owns a gun shop suggested I use rounds with no powder in them. They work great, as long as you didn't let the women in neighborhood know what was going on because they roll in love with little mass bandits. Finally, my wife made me quit. Last fall I met a new neighbor in the neighborhood, and was surprised to find he was aware my service record. Bill is approximately the same age as myself, and I was even more surprised when I found out he was former UDT. He offered to take over disposing of our furry bandits. It occurred to me today that he in all likelihood knew Jesse Ventura. I put a call into Bill, and I will see what he has to say about the situation.
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
HimSEA himL himHist himory https://www.navysealmuseum.org/about-navy-seals/seal-history-the-naval-special-warfare-story/seal-history-first-airborne-frogmen
“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org
He may accept him as a SEAL (or same as) but the truth is that Ventura only served in UDT 12, a forerunner of the SEALs that developed the extreme BUDS training regimen. Those are the facts. You understand how this would happen. Over the years, the UDT guys thinned out in numbers and the remaining ones are just folded into the SEALs. And UDT vets were embraced by SEAL vets. They consider it a community with a code of honor, a very exclusive club.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestI do all this over a smart phone
#13. To: Pericles (#9)
#14. To: Otter (#13)
Hate to defend a crazy old man like Jesse (I watched his TV show, and I definitely stand by the ‘crazy’ bit). But in the interest of knowing the other side (without the histrionics of the lawyer’s article), here’s a bit of evidence that suggests Chris Kyle was a teller of tall tales: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/30/the-complicated-but-unveriable-legacy-of-chris-kyle-the-deadliest-sniper-in-american-history/ Whether the Jesse story is more of the same or absolute truth, couldn’t say – but I suspect stories like this are one reason the jury went against a dead war hero and his widow, and in favor of a crazy old man like Jesse.
#15. To: Palmdale (#12)
#16. To: Pericles (#15)
Clearly I am making you look up articles.
#17. To: Pericles (#14)
From your own source. LOL!
#18. To: Otter (#17)
You aren't very bright.
#19. To: Palmdale (#18)
#20. To: Palmdale (#18)
#21. To: Palmdale (#16)
#22. To: Pericles (#21)
So you troll on how the link is working or not?
#23. To: Otter (#22)
#24. To: Pericles (#23)
#25. To: Pericles (#9)
Justice for Jesse: Ventura Was Right in His Lawsuit
#26. To: Pericles (#0)
#27. To: Pericles (#7)
#28. To: Otter (#8)
Jesse lied. So did O.J. You defend liars. You're an ignorant expat.
#29. To: A K A Stone (#27)
I think Kyle kicked his ass.
#30. To: A K A Stone (#27)
Kyle wasn't cross examined.
#31. To: TooConservative, A K A Stone (#29)
#32. To: Pericles (#31)
There is actual chain of evidence where the Harper Collins book promotion agent is said to tell Kyle work up the Ventura angle when the book was not selling and claiming that the attack on Ventura - identifying Ventura by name on interviews is what sold the book.
#33. To: Pericles (#31)
#34. To: A K A Stone, Pericles (#27)
CASE 0:12-cv-00472-RHK-JJK Document 415 Filed 11/26/14 Page 1 of 24
DISTRICT OF MINNESOTA
Plaintiff,
Plaintiff
v.
Taya Kyle, as Executor of the Estate of Chris Kyle,
Defendant. Aug. 3: Juror describes how jury reached split decision in Jesse Ventura defamation trial
Updated: September 4, 2014 - 4:56 PM nerdbert
August 5, 2014 at 7:53 pm
http://kstp.com/news/stories/S3524889.shtml?cat=1 Kyle File
7. Speaking of which... Despite frequent claims that "American Sniper" book proceeds would go to help families of U.S. service members, trial testimony revealed almost all of it went to the Kyles. KTVT reported Taya Kyle cried frequently while testifying that gift-tax restrictions prevented them from donating more than $100,000 of the more than $3 million the book earned in royalties.
#35. To: nolu chan, Pericles (#34)
7. Speaking of which... Despite frequent claims that "American Sniper" book proceeds would go to help families of U.S. service members, trial testimony revealed almost all of it went to the Kyles. KTVT reported Taya Kyle cried frequently while testifying that gift-tax restrictions prevented them from donating more than $100,000 of the more than $3 million the book earned in royalties.
While not naming Plaintiff in print, Kyle confirmed in television, radio, and print interviews that “Scruff Face” was Plaintiff. In early January 2012, Kyle appeared on the Opie & Anthony Show, a talk-radio program, and the O’Reilly Factor, a talk show, retelling the above-quoted story about Plaintiff and repeating his alleged statement, “You deserve to lose a few guys.” The story also appeared on FOX News.
News Corp
#36. To: TooConservative (#35)
#37. To: TooConservative (#35)
#38. To: Pericles (#37)
They old "smuggled into Syria" fantasy is alive and well. Bush himself stating there were no WMD is just ignored or rationalized.
#39. To: Pericles, GarySpFc, sneakypete (#36)
I see above they are trying to claim now that Ventura is not a real "SEAL" - he is though.
#40. To: TooConservative (#39)
UDT started in WW II and lasted through the early Eighties.
#41. To: sneakypete (#40)
(Edited)
Maybe early 70's,but he was still on active duty with a UDT in the Philippines while the VN war was going on and the Navy was sending SEALS to the Delta in VN because he was asked to volunteer for a SEAL team,which included a 6 month tour in VN,and refused to volunteer.
#42. To: sneakypete (#40)
I went to jump school with sailors wearing SEAL team patches on their fatigues in 1964. I had no idea what SEALS were,so I asked them about it. They were former UDT members who were transitioning over to the SEAL teams. Guys in the early to mid-20's that were already E-6's. That was rare in 64.
#43. To: TooConservative, GarySpFc, sneakypete (#39)
(Edited)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdDW2HblKmg
#44. To: Pericles (#43)
(Edited)
#45. To: TooConservative, Pericles (#35)
[nc #34] Publisher Harper Collins said it would remove the offending "Scruff Face" content from future editions of the book.
William Morrow and Company is an American publishing company founded by William Morrow in 1926. The company was acquired by Scott Foresman in 1967, sold to Hearst Corporation in 1981, and sold to News Corporation in 1999. The company is now an imprint of HarperCollins.
CASE 0:12-cv-00472-RHK-JJK Document 415 Filed 11/26/14 Page 19 of 24
Defendant next argues the Court erred in failing to give a curative instruction after “erroneously” permitting Plaintiff to introduce evidence that Kyle and his publisher (HarperCollins) never retracted the story. (Def. Mem. at 27-28.) Defendant contends such evidence was irrelevant to the question of actual malice, which turned on his state of mind at the time of publication, not afterward. But “most authorities suggest that a failure to retract, in conjunction with other circumstances, may be used to establish the requisite level of malice.”
Defendant first contends the Court improperly admitted evidence that HarperCollins was insured and such insurance would pay any damages awarded to Plaintiff. But in the Court’s view such evidence was relevant to the bias (or credibility) of HarperCollins’s witnesses.
Product Details
ISBN 10: 0062290797
Imprint: William Morrow
On Sale: 10/15/2013
Trimsize: 6 in (w) x 9 in (h) x 1.469 in (d)
Pages: 480
#46. To: nolu chan (#45)
(Edited)
William Morrow has been sold several times and is an imprint of HarperCollins. The court documents make clear that the actual publisher is HarperCollins.
Defendant next argues the Court erred in failing to give a curative instruction after “erroneously” permitting Plaintiff to introduce evidence that Kyle and his publisher (HarperCollins) never retracted the story. (Def. Mem. at 27-28.) Defendant contends such evidence was irrelevant to the question of actual malice, which turned on his state of mind at the time of publication, not afterward. But “most authorities suggest that a failure to retract, in conjunction with other circumstances, may be used to establish the requisite level of malice.”
#47. To: TooConservative, nolu chan (#46)
#48. To: TooConservative (#44)
(Edited)
Luttrell looks like he has some severe psychiatric problems. Disorganized thinking. I think they've got him hopped up on psychiatric drugs like antipsychotics.
#49. To: Pericles, TooConservative, sneakypete, Redleghunter (#43)
#50. To: All (#49)
#51. To: Pericles (#48)
That could be but I wanted to point out he did call Ventura a "SEAL" so it seems the only doubt is amongst those trying to tare down any crediblity Ventura has because he was so anti-Bush and thus public neocon online posting enemy #1.
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