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Title: Chris Kyle, Author of American Sniper, Was a War Hero. He Was Also A Liar
Source: slate.com
URL Source: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_ ... _lies_about_jesse_ventura.html
Published: Jan 20, 2015
Author: Mark Joseph Stern
Post Date: 2015-02-01 03:21:06 by Pericles
Keywords: None
Views: 32030
Comments: 108

American Liar

Why Jesse Ventura is likely to collect millions from Chris Kyle’s American Sniper.

By Mark Joseph Stern

Chris Kyle, author of the runaway best-seller American Sniper, was a military hero who killed 160 people during his four tours of duty in Iraq and is now the subject of an Oscar-nominated blockbuster. He was also a fabulist. Before his tragic murder in 2013, Kyle told a number of extremely dubious stories. In one tale, Kyle claimed he killed two carjackers at a gas station southwest of Dallas, and that his driver’s license directed local police officers who questioned him to contact the Department of Defense. Kyle also claimed he traveled to post-Katrina New Orleans with a sniper friend, set up his gun atop the Superdome, and picked off dozens of armed looters.

The 160 kills are confirmed by the Pentagon. But there are absolutely no records of, or witnesses to, the latter stories. They are, perhaps intentionally, unverifiable. But it wasn’t these fantastical tales of vigilante justice that got Kyle into legal trouble. It was another, much less exciting story—one that wasn’t just unverifiable, but verifiably false. That tale, conveyed in a mere three pages of American Sniper, has put Kyle’s widow on the hook for $1.845 million in damages. And it may soon make Kyle’s publishers wish they approached the veteran’s claims with great deal of skepticism.

Kyle’s legal difficulties emerged from a subchapter of American Sniper titled “Punching Out Scruff Face.” In it, Kyle describes beating up a former Navy SEAL (“Scruff Face”) after the SEAL claims American soldiers deserved to die in Iraq. Early drafts of the book identified the SEAL as Jesse Ventura, former governor of Minnesota and famed professional wrestler, but Kyle’s publishers removed the name for fear of a lawsuit. Nonetheless, in a radio interview following the book’s release, Kyle admitted that “Scruff Face” was Ventura, and he repeated the claim soon after on The O’Reilly Factor. American Sniper shot to the top of Amazon’s best-seller list, becoming a smash hit for its publisher, HarperCollins, selling more than 1.5 million copies by July of 2014.

There was, however, a problem: The Ventura story wasn’t true, and Ventura meant to prove it. So he took Kyle to trial, suing him—and, after he died, his estate—for defamation and unjust enrichment. In the United States, defamation cases are extremely difficult to win, thanks to the First Amendment. When allegedly defamatory statements pertain to a public figure, the plaintiff mustn’t just prove those statements were false. He has to prove the defendant made those statements with “actual malice”—that is, knowledge that they were false or with “reckless disregard” for their falsity. Very few defamation plaintiffs can make it over the high bar of actual malice.

Ventura made it. On July 29, 2014, a federal jury returned from six days of deliberations to award Ventura $1.845 million in damages—specifically, $500,000 for defamation and about $1.345 million for unjust enrichment. (In other words, Kyle unjustly profited from defaming Ventura, and so his estate must give Ventura some of that money.) Kyle’s widow, Taya Kyle, promptly filed for “judgment as a matter of law,” asking the trial judge to reverse’s the jury’s verdict because the jury clearly got it wrong. Failing that, she asked for an entirely new trial. The judge denied both requests, defending the jury’s verdict as legally and factually justifiable. Kyle’s widow is currently appealing the decision; her odds of winning appear quite low.

...snip...

This suit is the second of Ventura’s one-two punch, and from here, it looks like a knockout. During the first trial, Ventura’s attorneys uncovered records of HarperCollins’ negligence in fact-checking Kyle’s book, as well as evidence that HarperCollins specifically touted the Ventura story to drum up publicity. Kyle’s ghostwriters spoke with only one person who claimed to have witnessed the fight, a friend of Kyle’s who told a different version of the story that lacked Ventura’s offensive remarks. No one from HarperCollins contacted Ventura or his representatives to verify the story. And though Kyle claimed Ventura appeared at a SEAL graduation afterward with a black eye—where “everybody was laughing” and asking “Who beat the shit out of him?”—HarperCollins never asked a member of the graduating class whether they saw Ventura’s injury. (A photograph from the event shows a clear image of Ventura—with no black eye.)

It gets worse for HarperCollins. Despite the tenuous source of the Ventura story, HarperCollins quickly saw it as a publicity gold mine. After Kyle identified “Scruff Face” as Ventura in a radio interview on The Opie & Anthony Show, HarperCollins editor Peter Hubbard wrote in an email that the publicity from the story was “priceless.” HarperCollins publicist Sharon Rosenblum described the Ventura kerfuffle as “hot hot hot,” immediately arranging for Kyle to retell the tale on The O’Reilly Factor. Sales of American Sniper—which, up to that point, were fairly modest—spiked dramatically, apparently in conjunction with interest in the Ventura story. After the O’Reilly appearance, Ventura publicly denied Kyle’s accusations. Yet Rosenblum arranged for Kyle to tell the story again on The Opie & Anthony Show, and HarperCollins printed several new editions of the book that still featured the “Scruff Face” section. (It was finally removed after Ventura won his suit.)

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#45. To: TooConservative, Pericles (#35)

[nc #34] Publisher Harper Collins said it would remove the offending "Scruff Face" content from future editions of the book.

[TC #35] And William Morrow was the publisher of American Sniper.

William Morrow has been sold several times and is an imprint of HarperCollins. The court documents make clear that the actual publisher is HarperCollins.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Morrow_and_Company

William Morrow and Company is an American publishing company founded by William Morrow in 1926. The company was acquired by Scott Foresman in 1967, sold to Hearst Corporation in 1981, and sold to News Corporation in 1999. The company is now an imprint of HarperCollins.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-mnd-0_12-cv-00472/pdf/USCOURTS-mnd-0_12-cv-00472-2.pdf

CASE 0:12-cv-00472-RHK-JJK Document 415 Filed 11/26/14 Page 19 of 24

Defendant next argues the Court erred in failing to give a curative instruction after “erroneously” permitting Plaintiff to introduce evidence that Kyle and his publisher (HarperCollins) never retracted the story. (Def. Mem. at 27-28.) Defendant contends such evidence was irrelevant to the question of actual malice, which turned on his state of mind at the time of publication, not afterward. But “most authorities suggest that a failure to retract, in conjunction with other circumstances, may be used to establish the requisite level of malice.”

CASE 0:12-cv-00472-RHK-JJK Document 415 Filed 11/26/14 Page 22 of 24

Defendant first contends the Court improperly admitted evidence that HarperCollins was insured and such insurance would pay any damages awarded to Plaintiff. But in the Court’s view such evidence was relevant to the bias (or credibility) of HarperCollins’s witnesses.

HarperCollins is the publisher; it is a William Morrow imprint.

http://www.harpercollins.com/9780062290793/american-sniper

Product Details

ISBN: 9780062290793
ISBN 10: 0062290797
Imprint: William Morrow
On Sale: 10/15/2013
Trimsize: 6 in (w) x 9 in (h) x 1.469 in (d)
Pages: 480

nolu chan  posted on  2015-02-02   13:32:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: nolu chan (#45) (Edited)

William Morrow has been sold several times and is an imprint of HarperCollins. The court documents make clear that the actual publisher is HarperCollins.

Nice sleuthing.

I still think you have access to a few legal resources the rest of us don't. And you know how to use them.     : )

Defendant next argues the Court erred in failing to give a curative instruction after “erroneously” permitting Plaintiff to introduce evidence that Kyle and his publisher (HarperCollins) never retracted the story. (Def. Mem. at 27-28.) Defendant contends such evidence was irrelevant to the question of actual malice, which turned on his state of mind at the time of publication, not afterward. But “most authorities suggest that a failure to retract, in conjunction with other circumstances, may be used to establish the requisite level of malice.”

I think Ventura must have had some pretty competent lawyers.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-02   14:31:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: TooConservative, nolu chan (#46)

nolu chan survived that Ukrainian real estate dentist's attacks?

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-02   15:29:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: TooConservative (#44) (Edited)

Luttrell looks like he has some severe psychiatric problems. Disorganized thinking. I think they've got him hopped up on psychiatric drugs like antipsychotics.

That could be but I wanted to point out he did call Ventura a "SEAL" so it seems the only doubt is amongst those trying to tare down any crediblity Ventura has because he was so anti-Bush and thus public neocon online posting enemy #1. If Ventura was pro war the very same attackers of Ventura's SEAL Bonafides would be proclaiming him the greatest SEAL ever.

Pericles  posted on  2015-02-02   15:34:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Pericles, TooConservative, sneakypete, Redleghunter (#43)

There are 205 homes in our gated community, and all had wood roofs. Previously we had never had a problem with the racoons, but that changed 3 years ago, when they started attacking the roofs almost every night. The situation was out of control, and night they would tear into two or three roofs. Roof repairs were running $150 to $500 each, and some of the retirees were clearly distressed. At a board meeting I agreed to take on the project, and the association purchased 4 traps for me to use.

Racoons are extremely smart, and trapping them is not easy. I will not go into all the problems, but will say they are one of the meanest animals I have ever encountered. You can't take them out into the country and drop them off, because they will come back from 40 miles away. Your only option is to dispose of them, with a 22, which presents a problem because it's illegal to discharge a firearm within the city limits. Animal control was no help, because they were taking the animals half a mile away and releasing them. The raccoons were back home before me. Finally my buddy who owns a gun shop suggested I use rounds with no powder in them. They work great, as long as you didn't let the women in neighborhood know what was going on because they roll in love with little mass bandits. Finally, my wife made me quit.

Last fall I met a new neighbor in the neighborhood, and was surprised to find he was aware my service record. Bill is approximately the same age as myself, and I was even more surprised when I found out he was former UDT. He offered to take over disposing of our furry bandits. It occurred to me today that he in all likelihood knew Jesse Ventura. I put a call into Bill, and I will see what he has to say about the situation.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-02   16:08:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: All (#49)

HimSEA himL himHist himory

https://www.navysealmuseum.org/about-navy-seals/seal-history-the-naval-special-warfare-story/seal-history-first-airborne-frogmen

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-02   16:19:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Pericles (#48)

That could be but I wanted to point out he did call Ventura a "SEAL" so it seems the only doubt is amongst those trying to tare down any crediblity Ventura has because he was so anti-Bush and thus public neocon online posting enemy #1.

He may accept him as a SEAL (or same as) but the truth is that Ventura only served in UDT 12, a forerunner of the SEALs that developed the extreme BUDS training regimen. Those are the facts.

You understand how this would happen. Over the years, the UDT guys thinned out in numbers and the remaining ones are just folded into the SEALs. And UDT vets were embraced by SEAL vets. They consider it a community with a code of honor, a very exclusive club.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-02   16:50:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: GarySpFC (#49)

Racoons are extremely smart, and trapping them is not easy. I will not go into all the problems, but will say they are one of the meanest animals I have ever encountered.

I have some experience. Incredibly destructive. I rarely miss a chance to kill one living anywhere near me. You just know what they're going to do.

I have an older second cousin who had a pack of coons break into his attic while he wintered in Texas. He came back and did a full repair. They tore right through the new plywood and roofing and set up house again. Then he repaired with that anti-rodent razor wire stuff. Well, they ripped through the roofing but that did stop them from getting in again. And the damage they can do!

I put a call into Bill, and I will see what he has to say about the situation.

Sounds like a fun call for you either way. A good excuse to chat.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-02   16:54:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: TooConservative (#51)

There was a major difference between UDT and SEALS. First they were UDT, and after receiving Airborne, Ranger, and SF training, then they were considered SEALS.. They in turn trained the SF in Scuba. Today the Army SF have a Dive School in Key West, next door to Buds.

http://cursor.org/venturawatch/dangerous_game.htm

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-02   17:23:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: GarySpFC, Pericles (#53)

http://cursor.org/venturawatch/dangerous_game.htm

VenturaWatch? LOL. Well, he is a notorious liar himself.

That page does support pretty credibly what we've been saying that Ventura never served in Vietnam, lied about it publicly and had plenty of scandal about his statements about his service years.

I like the part where it talks about the only evidence he served overseas was info on the UDT basketball team in Subic Bay. I'm not sure how many dangerous VietCong Jesse had to kill in Subic Bay.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-02   17:30:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: TooConservative (#54) (Edited)

Bill Sailsbury was a high ranking SEAL officer.

"I also drew on my 16 years as a SEAL, that included a combat tour as officer-in-charge of SEAL Team 1, Detachment Golf, duty as executive officer of SEAL Team 2 during the war, and a stint as commanding officer of UDT 11 after the war."

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-02   17:47:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: GarySpFC, Pericles (#55) (Edited)

Then, the real deal. No doubt, Ventura made some enemies over the years, mostly with his big mouth. Had he kept his yap shut, the SEALs would overlook a lot of minor stuff. I don't think they started out hating on him though they never considered him to really be part of their elite veterans group. He trained for it but left the service, avoiding combat. Then he traded on his training and pretended he had served in combat and "hunted man" as though that was something SEALs do for fun and suggested that others had served dishonorably.

You can see why there is some real animosity from some SEAL vets toward Ventura though many also try to include him in the community, no matter what.

Ventura is not a sympathetic figure at all. But Kyle and his publisher still deliberately libeled him and conspired to do it as proven by documents and testimony. They libeled him just to gin up controversy and create a hit book and get a movie package.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-02   18:41:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: TooConservative (#56)

Ventura is not a sympathetic figure at all. But Kyle and his publisher still deliberately libeled him and conspired to do it as proven by documents and testimony. They libeled him just to gin up controversy and create a hit book and get a movie package.

They did libel him, but we don't know their motive.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-02   18:47:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: GarySpFC (#57)

C'mon. Profits.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-02   19:14:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Pericles (#48)

cursor.org/stories/seal_or_udt_3.htm

My excellent adventure as a SEAL began that very day before the sun had vanished beyond the Coronados. Fresh meat. Welcome aboard.

Not all men from UDT were run-for-your-lifers. Many frogs later had their own excellent adventures as SEALs, and those who survived love to woof about it for fun and profit. Here's how one woofer, Rad Miller Jr., describes his metamorphosis from frog to SEAL in Whattaya Mean I Can't Kill 'Em?:

"Although our base in Coronado was shared with SEAL Team 1 (they had half, UDT Teams 11 and 12 had the other half separated by a concrete wall), we didn't mix during working hours. We did party together though. Frogs were good. But SEALs were in a class by themselves. They were warriors, and had a mystique about them that said: 'Don't fool with me, I'll tear you a new asshole.'

"I was attracted and impressed. On the one hand being a Frog was fun; on the other, there were also no real challenges ahead.

"Then the clincher occurs that will change my life. I was hanging in the area filling dive tanks when I saw a platoon of SEALs all geared up for a training exercise they were just bristling with weapons. I go to the office and submit a transfer request. They need SEALs for Vietnam and my transfer is immediately approved--God help me now."

Still in search of an answer to the question of whether Jesse had ever been a SEAL or a frogman in the shit, I obtained a roster of UDT 12 that included his name. Looking down the roster, I saw Jesse and I had mutual acquaintances, one of whom was Artie Ruiz. Although Artie had never been a SEAL, he had been one of those rare frogmen who certainly had been in the shit. All you need do was take one look at his back, pockmarked with old shrapnel wounds, to know he'd been there.

Artie had been dinged while single-handedly keeping the VC from swarming his disabled patrol boat. Every soul on board save one had been either killed or seriously wounded in an ambush. Artie, who is about the size of Audie Murphy and as soft-spoken, fought off the enemy with a handheld M-60 machine gun at a range of 25 yards. He got a Bronze Star to go with his Heart. Should have been a Navy Cross, but enlisted guys don't have a strong lobby with the Awards Board like officers do.

I called Artie at his home in National City. "Yes, I knew Jesse and Jan," Artie said. "They were the Janos brothers. Jesse in those days was known as Jim 'the Dirty' Janos and his brother was Jan 'the Clean.' "Jan was a four-oh sailor. Squared away. Jim was a great guy, but he didn't care much about having a spiffy uniform or regulation haircut. He didn't believe much in showers, either.

"Jim belonged to a motorcycle gang in I.B. The Mongols or Mescaleros or something. I'm not sure. But I remember how he used to come roaring up Highway 75 every morning before quarters, wearing his colors and torn Levi's, reared back on his Harley hog. He'd zoom around the asphalt grinder, do a wheelie or two, then park and shift into the uniform of the day - UDT swim trunks and blue 'n' gold T-shirt."

Changing one set of colors for another?

"You could say that. Then, after a day of fun in the sun, he'd shift again and tear up the road back to I.B. and the In Spot, a tittie-flop bar where he worked as a bouncer. Jim maintained order, but not too much. You had to get really outa line for Jim to toss you. But toss you he could. Jim wasn't as buff then as when he became Jesse 'the Body' Ventura, but he was on his way."

Jesse ever in a SEAL Team?

"Oh, no. Spent his entire time in Team 12. Never had a SEAL NEC."

Could you explain about an NEC, what it means?

"Means Navy enlisted classification. It's a code all enlisted guys have that tells what their warfare specialty is. UDT guys were 5321s and SEALs were 5326s. Had to serve in a SEAL Team for at least six months before you qualified as a 26."

Jesse ever in the shit like you or Stony?

"Oh, no. At least not that I heard of, and I probably would have known if he'd been in anything serious. But I don't hold that against him. He was a good teammate. Just a little loco.

Otter  posted on  2015-02-02   19:38:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: TooConservative (#41)

That sounds consistent with other pieces I've read about him. Not exactly a star-spangled military career as these things go.

Not so sure I would agree with that if he had just had the class to stay truthful about his duty.

Face it,being on a UDT team gave you plenty to brag about even if you never went into combat.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-02-02   20:25:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Pericles (#43)

Marcus Luttrell Reacts To Jesse Ventura Verdict

That is the man I have been saying was a piss-poor commander whose bad tactical decisions lead to the deaths of all the men under his command,even though they tried to tell him it was a bad decision that would get them all killed.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-02-02   20:31:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: TooConservative (#44)

Luttrell looks like he has some severe psychiatric problems. Disorganized thinking.

Who wouldn't,given the psychic burden he carries ever day for the loss of his team?

He should have listened to his NCO's,and he didn't. As a result,everybody but him died,and his life is forever altered by both the mental and the physical damage he suffered/suffers from.

While I am quick to criticize his tactical command decisions,I have a great deal of sympathy for the man and what he has to suffer through every day.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-02-02   20:35:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: Pericles (#48)

that could be but I wanted to point out he did call Ventura a "SEAL" so it seems the only doubt is amongst those trying to tare down any crediblity Ventura has because he was so anti-Bush....

HorseHillary! I challenge you to find someone more anti-Bush than me. I flat out state that Ventura is only a SEAL in the broadest and most technical sense. He never once served on a SEAL Team,and if you check out the latest article I posted,you will see that at one time he was even claiming he "hunted men as a SEAL in VN" despite never having been on a SEAL team or ever going to VN.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-02-02   20:38:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: TooConservative, GarySpFC (#52)

I have an older second cousin who had a pack of coons break into his attic while he wintered in Texas. He came back and did a full repair. They tore right through the new plywood and roofing and set up house again. Then he repaired with that anti-rodent razor wire stuff. Well, they ripped through the roofing but that did stop them from getting in again. And the damage they can do!

I'm thinking the way to go would be to put on a new steel roof. They won't be able to chew and claw through that,and you get the added bonus of getting to sleep under a steel roof when it's raining. There is just something about the sound of rain hitting a steel roof that is so soothing it practically guarantees a good night's sleep.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-02-02   20:44:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: GarySpFC (#53)

They in turn trained the SF in Scuba. Today the Army SF have a Dive School in Key West, next door to Buds.

1st Group on Okie had a Scuba committee already in place and teaching UDT when I got there in early 65. I was friends with several of the cadre,but I had ZERO interest in diving.

They even had JFK's personal PT boat from when he was president to use as a training aid and to insert teams on hostile shores. I know it was JFK's PT boat because it had a ladies room on it,and I seriously doubt the US Navy had 2 PT boats on their roster with ladies rooms.

Besides using it for the SCUBA Committee,they also used it as a recovery vehicle for water jumps. The 1st had a lot of people wounded while TDY to VN in the 60's,and they had to make water jumps because of their wounds.

It was this PT boat (named the "Green Beret") that Colonel "Splash" Kelley broke his leg/legs on while making water jumps to try to get his master blaster wings before going to VN to take command of the 5th SFG.

The South China Sea had/has lots of sharks,so "Splash" (his new at that time nickname) was jumping a MC-1 maneuverable chute and pulling down on both forward risers to land close to the boat. They always had guys on decks with M-14's in case the sharks got active,but he wanted to limit his time in the water. In this case he ran right into the side of the boat and broke one or both legs. I can't remember which right now.

BTW,years ago the US Navy was still looking for that boat. Seems like somehow or another it got "lost". I'm sure it is really and truly lost by now. Mostly likely it was worn out beyond repair and sank 2 decades ago.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-02-02   20:57:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: sneakypete (#65)

Interesting.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-02-02   21:19:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: sneakypete (#60)

Face it,being on a UDT team gave you plenty to brag about even if you never went into combat.

One would think. I think Ventura got used to talking a lot of smack hanging out in biker bars and as a pro wrestler. And he certainly traded on his elite military training throughout and into his little movie foray, appearing in Predator with Schwarzenegger.

I never liked Ventura at all as wrestler or actor. I think he was elected governor in a state so miserably mismanaged that even he looked pretty good for a while.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-02   21:28:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: sneakypete (#65)

They even had JFK's personal PT boat from when he was president to use as a training aid and to insert teams on hostile shores. I know it was JFK's PT boat because it had a ladies room on it,and I seriously doubt the US Navy had 2 PT boats on their roster with ladies rooms.

Strangely enough, the Kennedy family cooperated in a search for the sunken plywood boat, supposedly the only US patrol boat rammed and sunk in WW II.

Amazon: Collision With History: The Search For John F. Kennedy's PT 109

With the support of the Kennedy family, best-selling National Geographic Explorer-in-Residence Robert D. Ballard embarks on the search for PT-109, the boat made famous by commander John F. Kennedy's heroic rescue efforts following a harrowing collision with a Japanese destroyer in WWII. The companion to a major National Geographic Explorer television documentary Forty years after his death and 60 years after his first collision with history four miles off the island of Gizo in the South Pacific, John F. Kennedy and his story still inspires readers. JFK's heroic efforts to save his 11-man PT 109 (personal torpedo boat) crew including - swimming close to 80 miles over a period of six days through Japanese- and shark-infested waters, at one point even towing an injured crewman by a rope in his teeth for a two-mile swim- come to life interwoven through a comprehensive history of PT boats and the World War II campaign in the Solomon Islands. Collision with History combines first person presence on Ballard's search expedition for the wreckage, survivor accounts, and Kennedy family members' recollections to introduce the reader to the young war hero who would later become president. Covering subjects such as modern exploration, World War II, and personal heroism, Ballard weaves a tale that spans 60 years.

. . .

On a foggy August night in 1943, the future President's PT boat was rammed and sunk by a Japanese destroyer in the Solomon Islands. Two of the 13-man crew died in the action, which cut their boat in two. Kennedy acquitted himself well in the aftermath, assisting two injured crewmen, leading the survivors to nearby islands and eventually getting word to rescuers. In the tradition of his explorations of the Titanic and Bismarck wrecks, Ballard (with help from writer/consultant Morgan) attempts to set the strategic and tactical stage for Kennedy's war, but the result is rather disappointing. The text then jumps forward to the May 2002 expedition to locate the wreck. There is some material describing the geography of the Solomons and their modern inhabitants. Chapter 5, which is given over to the actual search and discovery, might have made a detailed magazine article but is scarcely sufficient to form the core of a book. Heavily illustrated with photos and National Geographic reconstructions, and with family remembrances and an introduction by Sen. Edward Kennedy, this coffee-table book feels rushed into print to accompany the promised television documentary. A marginal purchase unless the documentary generates demand. Edwin B. Burgess, U.S. Army Combined Arms Research Lib., Fort Leavenworth, KS Copyright 2002 Reed Business Information, Inc.

About the Author

Robert D. Ballard, Ph.D., is president of the Institute for Exploration in Mystic, Conn. and the former director of the Center for Marine Exploration at Woods Hole, Mass and the author of several best-selling books, including Explorations, The Discovery of the Titanic, and The Discovery of the Bismarck.
Hard to imagine any working PT boat of WW II ever having a woman's bathroom.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-02   21:39:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: TooConservative (#67)

I think Ventura got used to talking a lot of smack hanging out in biker bars and as a pro wrestler.

I think so,too.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-02-02   21:48:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: sneakypete, TooConservative, GarySpFC, yall (#64)

Got a great coon story.

A neighbor of mine was watching TV in his family room, where his wife had been complaining of a bad smell. Suddenly, the sheet rock wall behind his couch burst open and the source of the smell was revealed.. Turns out a mama coon in the attic had lost her baby down the stud wall cavity, went down to rescue it, and got stuck herself. Nature prevailed, and decomposition split open the sheet rock.

My neighbor wanted me to do the repairs, but I was too busy..

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-02   21:48:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: TooConservative (#68)

Strangely enough, the Kennedy family cooperated in a search for the sunken plywood boat, supposedly the only US patrol boat rammed and sunk in WW II.

That's not the PT boat I was talking about. I am talking about the one the Navy gave him to use when he was president.

It was their subtle (?) way of reminding him that he was in the Navy too,and the Navy needed money to operate and more Admirals to run things.

Not sure how many times he used it,but IIRC,it did have a pink door for the Ladie's room. I seriously doubt Jackie Ho ever set foot on it,but Marilyn Monroe and others most likely did.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-02-02   21:51:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: sneakypete (#62)

Who wouldn't,given the psychic burden he carries ever day for the loss of his team?

I don't get it. When you're in the military, how can it not be a possible outcome that only one survivor returns from a bad mission? The US had a number of combat episodes in Af-Pak where there were only one or two survivors from a vicious firefight at a forward base. You might assume that the odds are very very high against anything much less than a patrol group getting out of a heavy firefight because when your numbers fall below a certain number like a half dozen, the odds go way up there will be no survivors at all. But it seems to happen more than you would expect. I don't recall reading the same kinds of reports from Iraq fighting but it was a different kind of fighting there than the firebases and patrols in the Af-Pak back country.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-02   21:54:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: sneakypete (#71)

That's not the PT boat I was talking about. I am talking about the one the Navy gave him to use when he was president.

He did have an actual presidential yacht.

You'll have to excuse me but why would an assassinated president's personal PT boat end up at the tail end of some base only two years after he was traumatically murdered on television?

I can't even imagine how that would happen. The Navy would be that careless with a murdered Navy president's personal boat? It just makes no sense. If nothing else, an admiral would have it in very careful keeping.

BTW, after JFK got his first PT boat (PT-109) sunk, they gave him another one for a little while but I don't know if he ever went into combat again on it.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-02   21:58:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: tpaine (#70)

My neighbor wanted me to do the repairs, but I was too busy..

I would also be too busy.

Who am I kidding? Yeah, I'd be dumb enough to help. Complaining about the smell the whole time and gloved to the elbows. Hate cleaning up dead animals.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-02   22:01:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: TooConservative (#68) (Edited)

Hard to imagine any working PT boat of WW II ever having a woman's bathroom.

Lots of PTs were sold as surplus and converted into yachts. -- Somebody probably restored one for fun, and added another head for the ladies.

--- Or,--- It could have been the one used by MacArthur to escape from Corrigador. If memory serves, I remember reading something about special quarters having been set up for his wife and child on that boat. (Or did they even have a kid yet?)

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-02   22:02:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: TooConservative (#72)

I don't get it. When you're in the military, how can it not be a possible outcome that only one survivor returns from a bad mission?

You have never been in a combat arms branch of the military,or you would get it.

The reason those men died were due to the poor tactical decisions he made as their team leader. His senior NCO's tried to tell him that if they did what he wanted to do chances are they would all die,and he ignored their advise and ordered them to obey his commands. They did,and they died because of it.

Leaders are the ones that have to make these hard decisions,and in this case the decision he make cost the men under his command their lives.

IF he had done as they suggested,they would have never been surrounded and killed.

If you don't understand this,the best I can tell you to do is read the book and watch the movie.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-02-02   22:16:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: tpaine (#75)

--- Or,--- It could have been the one used by MacArthur to escape from Corrigador.

MacArthur was quite the little prince, wasn't he? Yet no one ever said anything about it. Apparently, he was held in very high regard. He must have been pretty charismatic in person. Even the old newreels give that impression of him.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-02   22:29:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: sneakypete (#76)

The reason those men died were due to the poor tactical decisions he made as their team leader. His senior NCO's tried to tell him that if they did what he wanted to do chances are they would all die,and he ignored their advise and ordered them to obey his commands. They did,and they died because of it.

IOW, he was a stubborn bonehead and wouldn't listen to his superiors. Now he is the ghost of his bad decision.

If you don't understand this,the best I can tell you to do is read the book and watch the movie.

Sounds depressing. No thanks. It would explain why he seemed heavily medicated though. He's getting eaten up inside.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-02   22:31:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: TooConservative (#73)

He did have an actual presidential yacht.

He had a lot of stuff. Countless crap is given to presidents.

You'll have to excuse me but why would an assassinated president's personal PT boat end up at the tail end of some base only two years after he was traumatically murdered on television?

Beats me. JFK liked SF,and he was the guy that authorized SF to wear Green Berets despite the wishes of the regular army,so it's possible he gave it to them to use for training.

It's also possible somebody in SF saw the PT boat docked somewhere not being used,and decided to steal it to use for training and actual missions. We stole a LOT of equipment from the regular army,the USMC,the US Navy,and the USAF. We had to in order to complete our missions because we weren't authorized the equipment we needed under the official TO&E because the regular army didn't like us and they wanted to see us fail. ALL of the trucks and jeeps we had at FOB-2 were stolen from the regular army. Since on paper we did nothing but sit around camp and look at maps,the regular army didn't think we needed any,so they was no money in our budget to buy any. So we stole them.

That's right,military units have budgets based on the size of the unit and their mission,and they have to use that money to buy the food,gas,diesel fuel,trucks,and everything else they need to function. You don't get that stuff just by asking or it. You have to/are supposed to use unit funds to buy it all.

I can't even imagine how that would happen. The Navy would be that careless with a murdered Navy president's personal boat? It just makes no sense. If nothing else, an admiral would have it in very careful keeping.

Do you seriously think Admirals spend much time at dockside watching boats?

I'm not going to give you a quick course on how this sort of thing is done because it might hamper people needing to do it today,but rest assured there are ways you can pull this sort of thing off if you have the intelligence and the stones to go for it.

People who have served a few years in the military and been around a little can probably understand how and why it happens,but it is practically impossible to explain this to someone who has never served because you don't understand how the system works.

BTW, after JFK got his first PT boat (PT-109) sunk, they gave him another one for a little while but I don't know if he ever went into combat again on it.

From what I have read,that's pretty surprising. The Navy wanted to court-martial him for dereliction of duty,and old man Joe Kennedy tried using his influence in the Dim Party to get him a Medal of Honor. IIRC,the compromise was neither got what they wanted.

Of course,after he became president and began signing budget bills,the US Navy suddenly loved him. If he had wanted one,they would have given him a battleship.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-02-02   22:41:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: tpaine (#75)

-- Or,--- It could have been the one used by MacArthur to escape from Corrigador. If memory serves, I remember reading something about special quarters having been set up for his wife and child on that boat. (Or did they even have a kid yet?)

You know what,that may have even been the same boat given to JFK that ended up on Okinawa.

All I heard about the boat were rumors because nobody was ever going to admit to anything,but the rumors made sense. Especially given the JFK/SF connection.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-02-02   22:43:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: sneakypete (#79) (Edited)

From what I have read,that's pretty surprising. The Navy wanted to court-martial him for dereliction of duty,and old man Joe Kennedy tried using his influence in the Dim Party to get him a Medal of Honor. IIRC,the compromise was neither got what they wanted.

The incident did sound damning but I read some explanations from the usual Kennedy-lovers that mitigate against some of the standard accusations of dereliction. That Kennedy had a playboy reputation (in the Navy and in the Senate and as president) didn't help the impression he created.

Anyway, the Kennedy cult is still willing to debate to the death anyone who questions his awesome abilities as the commander of the only PT boat rammed and sunk by a destroyer in WW II though it was totally 100% not his fault. Or something like that.     : )

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-02   22:51:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: TooConservative (#78)

IOW, he was a stubborn bonehead and wouldn't listen to his superiors. Now he is the ghost of his bad decision.

No,he wouldn't listen to the advise of the NCO's under him that had more experience. He was the superior,not them.

Most,but not all,junior officers have enough sense to listen to their senior NCO's for tactical advice,but not all of them. The ones that don't generally end up not having very successful careers.

BUT....,at the end of the day it is the senior officer that makes the final decisions,and he gets all the glory or all the blame.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-02-02   22:56:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: sneakypete (#82)

BUT....,at the end of the day it is the senior officer that makes the final decisions,and he gets all the glory or all the blame.

Well, how else can that system function? It is totally top-down.

If you changed that, it wouldn't be a military.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-02-02   22:59:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: TooConservative (#77)

MacArthur was quite the little prince, wasn't he? Yet no one ever said anything about it.

Yes,but he was wearing 4 stars on his collar,and like every other man in uniform that wears 4 stars,nobody is going to complain much about anything he says or does.

McArthur was just the most famous ego-maniac wearing a US uniform in WW-2. That doesn't mean he was the only one,though.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-02-02   23:00:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: TooConservative (#81)

The incident did sound damning but I read some explanations from the usual Kennedy-lovers that mitigate against some of the standard accusations of dereliction.

I honestly don't know how anyone can explain away a commander that was supposed to be on a combat patrol putting out a sea anchor to drift with no lights on and nobody awake on watch while he went to bed,and is then ran down by the very ship he was on patrol to sink.

The only way I can picture it being worse would be if he somehow managed to sink the PT boat himself.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-02-02   23:03:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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