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Title: {Mine} Is solar power really economical?
Source:
SoSo
URL Source: http://www.northfortynews.com/pvrea ... ommunity-solar-farm-goes-live/
Published: Jan 30, 2015
Author: North Forty News
Post Date: 2015-01-30 17:24:02 by SOSO
Keywords: None
Views: 18538
Comments: 59
Air National Guard couple set to deploy Larimer County’s Senior Tax Work-Off applications accepted starting Feb. 2 PVREA’s second community solar farm goes live By NFN On January 29, 2015 In Dispatches · Add Comment Poudre Valley Rural Electric Association initiated into production on Jan. 29 the cooperative’s second community solar farm. The 632 kW Community Solar Farm II, located north of Fort Collins, is generating power for members of PVREA who have purchased panels to offset their electric use. In a partnership with Clean Energy Collective, this project makes two community solar farms for PVREA. “We recognized the demand for another renewable energy option from our membership, and the overwhelming success and 100 percent sellout of the first solar farm provided us the incentive to establish our second community solar farm,” PVREA CEO Jeff Wadsworth commented. The cooperative’s first solar farm located at the co-op headquarters is 116 kW powered by 494 solar panels. The second solar farm is more than four times larger with more than 2,200 panels generating 632 kW. Members who are interested have the opportunity to purchase solar panels through Clean Energy Collective. The energy generated from their purchased panels is deducted from their monthly bill. According to Clean Energy Collective, the average residential member is estimated to see a bill credit of $5 per month per panel and will receive their return of investment in a little over 13 years. This solar farm adds to the cooperative’s growing renewable energy portfolio, which already includes the cooperative’s first solar farm project, over 160 net-metering applications, the Carter Lake Hydroelectric project and the Green Power Program.
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#19. To: Willie Green (#17)
No not quite as it would require additional investment by the utility or the end user to replace the drop off in generation capacity. That or have the end user do with less electricity over the life of the original facility. It's amazing how you are so willfully blind to the realities of the world. With what does either the utility or the end user replace the lost generation capacity? I am betting you are going to say they should do without it.
Not true. There is no requirement to match individual share of capacity ownership with individual electrical consumption. It is pooled capacity that is share by the co-op members. An individual may invest in two panels and obtain the two-panel monthly credit regardless of whether the individual's average actual consumption is ½, 1, 2, 3 or even more panels worth of electricity. All investment in a certain number of solar panels does is entitle you to a certain credit on your monthly bill for "owning" those panels. It does NOT require you to consume any more or any less than whatever those panels actually generate.
"Some people march to a different drummer — and some people polka."
No not quite as it would require additional investment by the utility or the end user to replace the drop off in generation capacity. Not true. There is no requirement to match individual share of capacity ownership with individual electrical consumption. You can't be that dense, can you?. An individual may invest in two panels and obtain the two-panel monthly credit regardless of whether the individual's average actual consumption is ½, 1, 2, 3 or even more panels worth of electricity." What is the color of the sky in your world? The credit from the utility is based on the actual amount of electricity that the original two panels produce during each billing period not some theoretical or fictous number. If the sun doesn't shine the credit is zero. The end consumer must certainly replace that capacity whether in kind or otherwise. Further if your investment generates less and less electricity over time the eocnimics of that investment is negatively impacted whether you replace the lost generation or not. Either way the payback period increases as there is less and less annual savings from the investment over time. There is no use continuing this discussion with you as you are really dumb, which I don't believe is the case, or just intellectually dishonest, which I firmly believe you are. Take the last word, I'm done with you on this.
No... either way, the 21 years that it takes the panel efficiency to drop from 77% to 67% greatly exceeds the 13 year original payback period. In other words, the panels have already paid for themselves for 8 years. And virtually every photon that they convert to electricity, whether it's at 77%, 67%, 57% or 47% is pure PROFIT. You'd have to be dumb as a rock to want to replace the panels while they're still generating usable electricity after they already paid for themselves. "Some people march to a different drummer — and some people polka."
Apparently, the initial value for you and your family is not worth the investment in solar photo-voltaic conversion technology; for me, it is not about a dollars and cents perspective; it is more about the quality of life. So far over an eight year period there have been no maintenance issues other than to hose off the panels in the two arrays I have. It takes about 30 minutes with a high pressure hose and a soft scrubber mounted on a pool deck handle so as to reach the panels within the two arrays. There are 16 panels mounted in series for each array; each My home is cool (~70 degrees F) all year round and I havn't seen an electric bill since installation. To install this technology you must realize that the real value is quality of life. It can reach 120 degrees F (measured outside under the patio awning) in July, August and September where I live. It is cost prohibitive to be on the "grid" at peak load times because the utility company multiplies the cost by as many as 5X. I might add, in the early mornings/evenings I use a whole house attic fan to blast the attic with cool air; this ensures a buffer for much of the day. I also insulated the attic by double recommended thickness as well as automatic attic fans. I also mounted double pane windows throughout the home and placed plenty of insulation barriers around doors to seal the place. For me, it is about quality of life. The dollar cost is not a priority.
If you wouldn't mind, could you tell me where you are located and what make of panels, batteries and inverters you are using? How many batteries? Thanks.
That comment you quoted should have stated: each
Yes, I understand. Are you willing to answer my questions?
To install this technology you must realize that the real value is quality of life. It can reach 120 degrees F (measured outside under the patio awning) in July, August and September where I live. I have no basis to doubt what you report but I must admit I find it hard to believe that 32 panels can keep your home at 70 degrees when it is 120 degrees outside plus keep you lights and applicances on. What size is your home? What is the name plate kw output of you system?
I find the claimant is evasive when questioned.
What size is your home? What is the name plate kw output of you system? I find the claimant is evasive when questioned. We'll see.
See my post #24 and his response or more accurately, lack thereof.
You did not read my earlier post in entirety. Let me assure you the problem you are addressing is NOT about alternative energy sources but more about energy conservation techniques. Please re-read my earlier post because if you think you can find a cheap alternative energy source without improving the ifratructure, you are wrong. I suppose, you are interested in the added costs of conservation to ensure quality of life besides the addition of alternative energy sources?
I have.
I assure you that the issue that I am addressing is the economics of alternative energy sources not energy conservation. "Please re-read my earlier post because if you think you can find a cheap alternative energy source without improving the ifratructure, you are wrong." I am sorry but you response is confusing. You calimed that you can keep you home at 70 degress for the three months when the outside temperature is 120 degrees with just 36 solar panels. Is that correct? If so please tell me the size of your home and the nameplate capacity of your solar installation. Are you saying that solar PV is the cheapest source of alternative energy? If so, what infrastructure would need to be changed to make that not so?
I have. I guess that I have too.
I keep my home @70 degrees F +/- 2 degrees at all times; I have done so for years without paying one thin dime after certain conservation efforts were permanently installed. I manufacture about .9KW/h per panel per day on average; both arrays produce the same energy output with less than .1% difference; that is the reason for a redundant photo-voltaic system; I have an approach to monitor collection. I rarely use more than what I produce because of conservation techniques; of course, when there is cloud cover, I do not produce anywhere the peak capability of the system but that is a rare phenomena. I am not a salesman and I am not looking for clients; I designed the system I have and it works just fine. Your detailed questions are off topic.
Seriously? Chuckle!!!! Nobody is asking you to be a salesman.
So what is your reasoning to ask detailed questions, such as: Why do you require that information? Go research that sort of stuff with your friends or energy salesmen.
So you have an array of energy conservation and/or efficiency investments in addition to your solar PV system. You didn't mention anything about batteries so I assume that you do not have any. Consequently I assume that you are still connected to the grid since you also stated that you haven't seen an electric bill since the installation. Have you ever calculated the return on the total investment in these facilities? What was the installed costed of the entire generation and energy conservation/efficiency systems? How much in electric bill was saved by the investments? Do you know how much of the saving is due to your investments in energy conaservative/efficiency facilities and how much due to the solar PV system? You obviously do not live in HI were the retail residential cost of electricity is three times the national average. I am guessing that you live in a desert type area either in CA, NV, AZ, etc. where the retail residential cost of electricty is about 1.5 +/- times the national average. Your detailed questions are off topic." My friend the devil is in the details. It is noteworthy that you do not claim that your system makes economical sense but rather reflects a personal life style choice. That is pefectly fine if you choose that and have the means to pay for it. Most people do not have that financial luxury.
Inside the Solar-Hydrogen House: No More Power Bills--Ever EAST AMWELL, N.J.—Mike Strizki has not paid an electric, oil or gas bill—nor has he spent a nickel to fill up his Mercury Sable—in nearly two years. Instead, the 51-year-old civil engineer makes all the fuel he needs using a system he built in the capacious garage of his home, which employs photovoltaic (PV) panels to turn sunlight into electricity that is harnessed in turn to extract hydrogen from tap water. Although the device cost $500,000 to construct, and it is unlikely it will ever pay off financially (even with today's skyrocketing oil and gas prices), the civil engineer says it is priceless in terms of what it does buy: freedom from ever paying another heating or electric bill, not to mention keeping a lid on pollution, because water is its only by-product. Slide Show: Photos show what makes this house work "The ability to make your own fuel is priceless," says the man known as "Mr. Gadget" to his friends. He boasts a collection of hydrogen-powered and electric vehicles, including a hydrogen-run lawn mower and car (the Sable, which he redesigned and named the "Genesis") as well as an electric racing boat, and even an electric motorcycle. "All the technology is off-the-shelf. All I'm doing is putting them together." SNIP MORE: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hydrogen-house/ ******************** Published on Apr 18, 2013 ************************ Europe: Fuel cells to power regional trainsets GERMANY: Alstom Transport hopes to have 40 fuel cell-powered regional trains in commercial service on regional lines in Germany by 2020 under an accord signed at the InnoTrans trade show in Berlin on September 24. Under the letters of intent signed between Alstom, the Länder of Niedersachsen, Nordrhein-Westfalen and Baden-Württemberg and the transport authority of Hesse, two prototype trains are to be developed by the end of 2018 for revenue service trials using modified Coradia Lint multiple-units. The powertrain will use hydrogen fuel cells, batteries and energy storage systems to replace a roof-mounted diesel powerpack, giving equivalent performance to an electric multiple-unit... ************** Weed eater running on pure hydrogen made from Water without Electricity Uploaded on Mar 30, 2011 *************** Solar Hydrogen is the Fuel of the Future. Solar Hydrogen is cheap, green energy independence. Fact.
Good. Let me tell you about my families' quality of life: super-duper. And, I don't pay one thin dime. With luck, you might understand that some reasons for alternative energy systems are not just based on some silly guy sitting at a computer weighing a profit/loss MSExcel spreadsheet with a hand-wringing potential decision that may improve his/her life and family. For myself, I just weighed the benefits of controlling my families' quality of life.
My friend the devil is in the details. Good. Let me tell you about my families' quality of life: super-duper. And, I don't pay one thin dime. You are truly delusional if you think that you haven't paid a dime for your choosen quality of life. I am happy for you that your family's quality of life is super-duper. I am also happy that you are not the only one. With luck you might understand that.
I have not paid one thin dime since I installed the systems that I have suggested from about eight years ago. Your perspective is strange; are you attempting an argue?
Detailed? The manufacturers of your panels,inverters and number of batteries and your experience with them? What are you hiding?
Solar cells are improving. They are getting more efficient utilizing more of the sunlight's full spectrum. They are getting cheaper too. I believe that trend will continue and their use will increase. I could use a 1500 watt system on my roof. The sun is prevelant in the back of my home so it wouldn't detract from the front curb appeal. I would be enough electricity to power the refrigerator and the LCD flat screen TV.
No doubt but we are still talking about the future. In general, wind power is more economical than solar PV. There has been a proliferation of wind farms around the country. See post #18, wind account for about 34% of electric generation from all renewable sources. You will also note that the cost of conventional generated elecrticity has greatly increased. Do you think that this is by accident? The major driving force to tip the balance from conventional to solar is the price of conventional power. The biggest driving force behind the rise of the cost of conventional power has been and will continue to be government regualtion. The average Residential retail cost of electricity from all providers in 2000 was 8.24 cent/kWh. By 2012 it was 11.88 cents/kWh. That is a 44.2% increase compared to a CPI rise over the same period of about 33.5%. For Commercial consumers the increase in retail electric price over the same period was 35.8%, for Industerial users it was 43.8%.
My perspective is starnge? I guess the dimes that you spent to install your system eight years ago don't count as spending? If you think that that is argumentative, then your perspective is bizarre.
Yes. You are attempting to understand detailed, equipment design integration and reliability data; I designed the system using research data of industrial grade components meeting personal requirements at the time of installation; this system is not purchased by a a direct supplier or distributor but through OCMs based on my technical requirements and personal purchasing capability. I refuse to submit any detailed equipment information other than what I choose to provide; the extent of technical data is contained in earlier posts on this thread. I might add: I cut out the middle men with an approximate 32KW/h system achieving my design objectives; in fact, I have never discussed my requirements with any non-technical personel. Everything that I choose to not submit for arbitrary discussion.
Your "average cost" statistic is meaningless to the discussion. It does not take into account "peak" loads wherein utlity companies charge much higher rates commonly refered to as "tier rate structures."
You could have easily wasted less time and space by simply listing the manufacturers...if indeed you even have a solar setup.
Again, why do you have a reason for the data? More importantly (now) why didn't you answer my earlier question about stating your reasons within post #37? What are you hiding that prevents you from answering a simple question?
Manufacturers aren't data! Nor are manufacturers of vehicles, cellphones, TVs, etc. Don't bother to respond.
For purposes of design and reliabilty data of any system, the manufacturers are (indeed) data points to consider. Your own example: Proves the point. You are very dense about what data is all about, aren't you?
With a little luck you will understand that consumption at that peak rate is included in the average which is determined by total dollars paid divided by total kWh purchased. Now if you intend to only utilize your solar system and energy conservation facilities during peak hours then you may have a point. SO do you shut off your solar system and negate your energy conservation measures on off-peak hours?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
You have no luck or "lack of any good luck" based on your challenge as you are presenting information by websurfing "arithmetic averages" or some other attribute concerning publically accessible statistical data collection techniques that do not consider individual or personal characteristics or requirements. As a result, you are using data inconsistent to the discussion based on the title thread and body of the article. I shall authoritively answer the topic thread title, now: Yes, solar power is economical based on personal capability and capacity requirements to tailor custom energy needs.
Now all you need to do is prove it, not only in your special case but on a wholesale basis. I gave you what my annual electric bill is. Tell me how much it will cost me to eliminate it. What will be my return on investment?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Are you capable of keeping up with your own self on this thread? You are prolific throughout this thread using "retail costs" for energy considerations concerning solar power as a comparative tool about your discussion. Now, you changed the entire story to "wholesale costs." Are you really sure about your ability to be rational in discussion? "Wholesale costs" are not available to the public; the difference between retail and wholesale are a different thread, altogether.
Now all you need to do is prove it, not only in your special case but on a wholesale basis. Are you capable of keeping up with your own self on this thread? You are prolific throughout this thread using "retail costs" for energy considerations concerning solar power as a comparative tool about your discussion. Now, you changed the entire story to "wholesale costs." OK, I give up. I can't communicate with someone that doesn't understand the English language. Live long and prosper in whatever fantasy land in which you are living.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Excellent. By the way, changing your argument from "retail costs" to "wholesale costs" on your own thread clearly shows your lack of capability to rationally discuss the concept of "econonical." You lose the argument.
You are a moron. whole·sale adjective adjective: wholesale 1. done on a large scale; extensive. "the wholesale destruction of the natural order" synonyms: extensive, widespread, large-scale, wide-ranging, comprehensive, total, mass; Best stay away from open flames, heavy machinery and anything electric.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
A drop-off from 77% to 67% would be cause for concern if PVREA had to pay for fossil fuel to generate electricity. But sunshine is free, so even a drop-off to 57% or even 47% wouldn't warrant end-of-useful life replacement
#20. To: SOSO (#19)
No not quite as it would require additional investment by the utility or the end user to replace the drop off in generation capacity.
You keep forgetting, the solar farm supplies power to the grid and any excess power generated by the farm and not consumed by members also gets supplied to the grid. And any power consumed by members that is NOT generated by the solar farms is coming from other "green" resources on the grid: wind, hydro, etc. etc.
#21. To: Willie Green (#20)
#22. To: SOSO (#21)
Either way the payback period increases as there is less and less annual savings from the investment over time.
DUMB AS A ROCK. LOL!
#23. To: SOSO (#11)
(Edited)
But much more on the cost of electricity from your utility.
panel array feeds an inverter (the inverter is operated at 75% of panel capability so I can upgrade four more panels in each array; I calculated the average power I consumed in the 5 year period before installation and there is no loss of any measureable power efficiency over the eight years of service.
#24. To: Pridie.Nones (#23)
There are 16 panels mounted in series for each array; each panel feeds an inverter
#25. To: Otter (#24)
panel array feeds an inverter
#26. To: Pridie.Nones (#25)
That comment you quoted should have stated: each panel array feeds an inverter
#27. To: Pridie.Nones (#23)
My home is cool (~70 degrees F) all year round and I havn't seen an electric bill since installation.
#28. To: SOSO (#27)
What size is your home? What is the name plate kw output of you system?
#29. To: Otter, Pridie.Nones (#28)
#30. To: SOSO (#29)
We'll see.
#31. To: SOSO (#27)
#32. To: SOSO (#29)
We'll see.
#33. To: Pridie.Nones (#31)
Let me assure you the problem you are addressing is NOT about alternative energy sources but more about energy conservation techniques.
#34. To: Otter (#32)
We'll see.
#35. To: SOSO (#33)
#36. To: Pridie.Nones, SOSO (#35)
I am not a salesman and I am not looking for clients; I designed the system I have and it works just fine. Your detailed questions are off topic.
#37. To: Otter (#36)
If you wouldn't mind, could you tell me where you are located and what make of panels, batteries and inverters you are using? How many batteries? Thanks.
#38. To: Pridie.Nones (#35)
#39. To: All (#0)
A New Jersey resident generates and stores all the power he needs with solar panels and hydrogen
Scientific American.com | June 19, 2008 |By David Biello
Mike Strizki stores Hydrogen in propane tanks
Hydrogen House Project tour by Mike Strizki
24 September 2014 Railway Gazette 
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/technology/single-view/view/fuel-cells-to-power-regional-trainsets.html
Using aluminium to react with water to create hydrogen that is stored in the balloon that goes through a regulated ball valve and fed to weed eater motor.
Fuel cells are only going to get cheaper and more efficient. Fact.
The electrolysis process will only get cheaper and more efficient. Fact.
Water is plentiful. Fact.
#40. To: SOSO (#38)
My friend the devil is in the details.
#41. To: Pridie.Nones (#40)
#42. To: SOSO (#41)
You are truly delusional if you think that you haven't paid a dime for your choosen quality of life.
#43. To: Pridie.Nones (#37)
So what is your reasoning to ask detailed questions, such as:
#44. To: SOSO (#0)
#45. To: TEA Party Reveler (#44)
Solar cells are improving. They are getting more efficient utilizing more of the sunlight's full spectrum. They are getting cheaper too. I believe that trend will continue and their use will increase.
#46. To: Pridie.Nones (#42)
I have not paid one thin dime since I installed the systems that I have suggested from about eight years ago.
#47. To: Otter (#43)
Detailed?
The manufacturers of your panels,inverters and number of batteries and your experience with them?
What are you hiding?
#48. To: SOSO (#45)
#49. To: Pridie.Nones (#47)
#50. To: Otter (#49)
(Edited)
#51. To: Pridie.Nones (#50)
Again, why do you have a reason for the data?
#52. To: Otter (#51)
Manufacturers aren't data!
Nor are manufacturers of vehicles, cellphones, TVs, etc.
#53. To: Pridie.Nones (#48)
Your "average cost" statistic is meaningless to the discussion. It does not take into account "peak" loads wherein utlity companies charge much higher rates commonly refered to as "tier rate structures."
#54. To: SOSO (#53)
With a little luck you will understand that consumption at that peak rate is included in the average which is determined by total dollars paid divided by total kWh purchased.
#55. To: Pridie.Nones (#54)
I shall authoritively answer the topic thread title, now: Yes, solar power is economical based on personal capability and capacity requirements to tailor custom energy needs.
#56. To: SOSO (#55)
Now all you need to do is prove it, not only in your special case but on a wholesale basis.
#57. To: Pridie.Nones (#56)
#58. To: SOSO (#57)
OK, I give up.
#59. To: Pridie.Nones (#58)
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