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Mexican Invasion Title: The libertarian platforn vis a vis ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION
Low-skilled immigrants cross the Mexican border illegally or overstay their visas for a simple reason: There are jobs waiting here for them to fill, especially in Texas and other, faster growing states. Each year our economy creates hundreds of thousands of net new jobs — in such sectors as retail, cleaning, food preparation, construction and tourism — that require only short-term, on-the-job training. At the same time, the supply of Americans who have traditionally filled many of those jobs — those without a high school diploma — continues to shrink. Their numbers have declined by 4.6 million in the past decade, as the typical American worker becomes older and better educated. Yet our system offers no legal channel for anywhere near a sufficient number of peaceful, hardworking immigrants to legally enter the United States even temporarily to fill this growing gap. The predictable result is illegal immigration. In response, we can spend billions more to beef up border patrols. We can erect hundreds of miles of ugly fence slicing through private property along the Rio Grande. We can raid more discount stores and chicken-processing plants from coast to coast. We can require all Americans to carry a national ID card and seek approval from a government computer before starting a new job. Or we can change our immigration law to more closely conform to how millions of normal people actually live. Crossing an international border to support your family and pursue dreams of a better life is not an inherently criminal act like rape or robbery. If it were, then most of us descend from criminals. As the people of Texas know well, the large majority of illegal immigrants are not bad people. They are people who value family, faith and hard work trying to live within a bad system. Post Comment Private Reply Ignore Thread Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest These are the key concepts of american libertarianism: ---- libertysflame.com/cgi-bin...t.cgi?ArtNum=37402&Disp=0
#2. To: tpaine (#1) Clicked on the link and was greeted by the word Forbidden. Seems about right for a political philosophy that embraces the flooding of our nation with illegals.
#3. To: Vinny (#0) Crossing an international border to support your family and pursue dreams of a better life is not an inherently criminal act like rape or robbery. If it were, then most of us descend from criminals. Liberaltarians hate the right of our nation to enforce its borders. "The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts #4. To: All (#2) Here's the original article. It refutes your silly claims about immigration.
I posted an excerpt from the libertarian party platform, not an article. So the "silly claims about immigration" is codified libertarian doctrine.
#5. To: Palmdale, spews Liberaltarian hate crappola (#3) Liberaltarians hate the right of our nation to enforce its borders Palmdale has an irrational hate on for libertarians. Why? Only his psychologist knows.
#6. To: Palmdale, tpaine, Ls (#3) Liberaltarians hate the right of our nation to enforce its borders. Yes they do and we both could fill this forum with horror stories these illegals inflict on American citizens but they would fall on deaf ears. This despite the libertarians claim that they are open minded.
#7. To: Vinny, Y'ALL (#4) I posted an excerpt from the libertarian party platform, not an article. So the "silly claims about immigration" is codified libertarian doctrine.
Excerpts from the libertarian party platform are not codified libertarian doctrine. The closest thing you can get to generally accepted libertarian doctrine is my article from the Cato institute. Man up, admit that you have an irrational hate for libertarianism, and a love for socialism.
#8. To: Palmdale (#3) Liberaltarians hate the right of our nation to enforce its borders. Some libertarians hate ANYTHING being enforced. Life should be an 80 year long drug induced high. Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy #9. To: GrandIsland (#8) Some libertarians hate ANYTHING being enforced. Well, almost anything. One of 'em here on LF loves his monthly federal entitlement check and the enforcement of the taxes that pay for it. "The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts #10. To: GrandIsland, Y'ALL (#8) Some libertarians hate ANYTHING being enforced. Not true. We want our Constitution enforced.. Why do you oppose that principle?
#11. To: tpaine (#7) The closest thing you can get to generally accepted libertarian doctrine is my article from the Cato institute. That thing about you being both sad and funny? It's real :)
#12. To: tpaine (#10)
I've never stated that I don't want our constitution enforced. Quite the contrary. I want every part of it enforced. I just don't want you or anyone you smoke pot with to decide what is a violation of the constitution and what isn't. I'll trust people a little more important than you. lol Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy #13. To: Palmdale, Y'ALL (#9) Well, almost anything. One of 'em here on LF loves his monthly federal entitlement check and the enforcement of the taxes that pay for it. You bet. Me mum (Mrs Roscoe Palmdale) loves getting her SS check too. She paid in for 50 years, and its only fair she gets a return on her investment. Fess up Palmey, I'd bet you and/or yours get one too?
#14. To: GrandIsland (#12) I just don't want you or anyone you smoke pot with to decide what is a violation of the constitution and what isn't. His "Constitution" has sodomy, gay marriage, abortion, and illicit drug rights clauses lurking in emanations of penumbras. It also contains a secret ban on prayer in public schools. You know, the whole "living" document shtick. "The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts #15. To: GrandIsland (#12) We want our Constitution enforced.. Why do you oppose that principle?
I've never stated that I don't want our constitution enforced. Quite the contrary. I want every part of it enforced. As I've said before, I'd like to see the income tax repealed, but otherwise we agree. Why do you claim that libertarians are against constitutional principles?
I just don't want you or anyone you smoke pot with to decide what is a violation of the constitution and what isn't. Haven't smoked anything for almost 30 years. And you prohibitionists are violating constitutional principles, as only reasonable regulations can be written into law. Nothing is reasonable about fiat prohibitions on certain drugs or certain guns.
I'll trust people a little more important than you. lol People here are laughing out loud at you, pretending to be important yourself.
#16. To: Vinny (#2) Seems about right for a political philosophy that embraces the flooding of our nation with illegals. Yup. It does appear so, doesn't it? The official position of the Libertarian Party endorses the illegal invasion AND occupation of the USA. You bolded it the below -- How many lies and false premises do we see?: "Crossing an international border to support your family and pursue dreams of a better life is not an inherently criminal act like rape or robbery.(LIE -- violating the soverignty of a nation and its citizenry without proper authority IS criminal.) If it were, then most of us descend from criminals. (LIE -- the vast majority of Americans from the 1880s and on were compelled to follow an official process for citizenship.) As the people of Texas know well, the large majority of illegal immigrants are not bad people. (CRIME STATS DO NOT LIE. Those who remain on US land and steal US services and resources without authority or respect for the proper process and prcedure are THIEVES.) They are people who value family, faith and hard work trying to live within a bad system." (LIE. Thieves and pirates lack "values." And dishonor and disrespect American values and sovereighty.)
#17. To: tpaine (#5) None of the canaries will mention that the platform of the Libertarian party about Immigration is dependent on ending welfare. For them to veiw a single platform like this takes it completely out of context, but they can always be reminded of the truth, although they may scream a little. BTW, I do not support the immigration plank in the platform.
#18. To: Palmdale, off his meds once more... (#14) GrandIsland (#12) ---- I just don't want you or anyone you smoke pot with to decide what is a violation of the constitution and what isn't. Poor roscoe/palmey, off the deep end once again. I agree with the libertarian principles in the article I posted. It's insanity to claim otherwise.
#19. To: Vinny (#4) I posted an excerpt from the libertarian party platform, not an article. So the "silly claims about immigration" is codified libertarian doctrine. Hmmm... The official LP platform (not to be confuse with libertarian positions) has indicted itself as anti-Constitution. Who'da thunk? The official mental state of the official LP is officially "bi-polar."
#20. To: Dead Culture Watch (#17) BTW, I do not support the immigration plank in the platform. Well then you're "libertarian" on certain issues, as I am. Unfortunately, the above bolded position seems pretty clear.
#21. To: Liberator --- Libertarians are diligently plotting to take over the world, in order to leave you alone (#16) You've allied yourself with the anti-libertarian loonies? For shame.
#22. To: tpaine (#15) People here are laughing out loud at you, pretending to be important yourself. Let them laugh. I'm not important... never claimed to be. I'm a middle income, retired 49 year old civilian. I'm not important enough to decide what grey constitutional area is constitutional or not. I'm only important enough to know I won't let you decide what laws I should abide. Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy #23. To: tpaine (#21) You've allied yourself with the anti-libertarian loonies? For shame. I allied myself with...The Truth. Even Broken Clock "allies." Is THIS an official LP platform position? OR one individual's personal opinion? Because it sure doesn't sound "Constitutuional":
"Crossing an international border to support your family and pursue dreams of a better life is not an inherently criminal act like rape or robbery. If it were, then most of us descend from criminals. As the people of Texas know well, the large majority of illegal immigrants are not bad people. They are people who value family, faith and hard work trying to live within a bad system."
#24. To: Dead Culture Watch (#17) None of the canaries will mention that the platform of the Libertarian party about Immigration is dependent on ending welfare. Ending welfare? Utopian much? Why not have your...err...leadership give it a test run in say East Los Angeles or Ferguson, MO?
#25. To: GrandIsland, Y'ALL (#22) I'll trust people a little more important than you. lol People here are laughing out loud at you, pretending to be important yourself.
Let them laugh. --- I'm not important... never claimed to be. Your initial comment to me, above, was an obvious superiority remark. Man up to it.
I'm a middle income, retired 49 year old civilian. --- I'm not important enough to decide what grey constitutional area is constitutional or not. I'm giving you my opinion about not so grey areas that you should support, as per your oath to honor the document. -- It's your duty, regardless if you think you're un-important.
I'm only important enough to know I won't let you decide what laws I should abide. Yep, you should let the Constitution decide. Pity you can't understand it.
#26. To: Liberator (#16) #16. Isn't it ironic that Obama, and every other leftist, holds the exact same position on illegals?
#27. To: Vinny, Dead Culture Watch (#24) Ending welfare? Utopian much? Shouldn't and can't welfare be whiddled down to pre-"Great Society" 1965 percentage levels? Why must ending the rife welfare state be a pipe dream instead of a goal?
#28. To: Liberator (#27) I'd love to snap my fingers and make generational welfare vanish, but nothing short of an economic collapse will make that happen. Politics won't allow it. When the Ds talk about getting out the vote, these folks are their prime voting block.
#29. To: Liberator (#23) You've allied yourself with the anti-libertarian loonies? For shame.
I allied myself with...The Truth. Even Broken Clock "allies." Your allies are bashing ALL libertarians not just the Libertarian Party.
Is THIS an official LP platform position? OR one individual's personal opinion? Because it sure doesn't sound "Constitutuional": --- "Crossing an international border to support your family and pursue dreams of a better life is not an inherently criminal act like rape or robbery. If it were, then most of us descend from criminals. As the people of Texas know well, the large majority of illegal immigrants are not bad people. They are people who value family, faith and hard work trying to live within a bad system." I don't care, as I've never been a member of that Party. I agree with the principles outlined in the article I posted from the Cato Institute.
#30. To: Vinny (#24) Ending welfare? Utopian much? And DCW is wrong anyway. When California voters passed Proposition 187 to reduce welfare and other benefits being given away to illegal aliens, the California Libertarian Party opposed the measure. How dare the state require government IDs to get welfare, subsidized housing, and free medical care, they spluttered. "The biggest mistake that libertarians make is the way they view government and private sectors. Government is the root of all evil, and the private sector is the source of all good. Libertarians have never figured out that people are the same whether in the government or in the private sector." --Paul Craig Roberts #31. To: Vinny (#26) #16. Isn't it ironic that Obama, and every other leftist, holds the exact same position on illegals? Sad but true. I just checked out this essay by the author. I'm not sure if this nonsense is just his opinion, or the official Libertarian Party position. More from his essay (it gets scarier):
"Immigration is not the only area of American life where a misguided law has collided with reality. In the 1920s and '30s, Prohibition turned millions of otherwise law-abiding Americans into lawbreakers and spawned an underworld of moon-shining, boot-legging and related criminal activity. (Sound familiar?) We eventually made the right choice to tax and regulate alcohol rather than prohibit it. HUH?? Comparing the Illegal Invasion to...the Prohibition Days?? Baaad analogy.
"In the 19th century, America's frontier was settled largely by illegal squatters. In his influential book on property rights, The Mystery of Capital, economist Hernando de Soto describes how these so-called extralegals began to farm, mine and otherwise improve land to which they did not have strict legal title...." Again, the LP author fails miserably. "Illegal squatters"? On whose land or were they "squatting? Prarie dogs? Buffalos? And whose jobs and from whose public trough were they stealing? The 1800s was a period when American was still expanding and growing, the "extralegals" helped developed and settle a new nation. They did NOT steal and covet thy neighbor's land and goods. The Libertarian official site endorses such an author? Yes, he might even be qualified to work as 0buma's "Immigration Czar."
#32. To: Liberator (#31) Those analogies are absurd. Their position on illegals is nothing short of Obama open border anarchy; the worst effects are yet to be seen. If I were in a room with a libertarian, given this position, I'd get up and leave.
#33. To: tpaine (#29) Your allies are bashing ALL libertarians not just the Libertarian Party. I don't speak for anyone but myself. On the issue of the Illegal Invasion, a Libertarian posting from the official Libertarian Party website is...PRO-ILLEGAL INVASION. Did you even read this Libertarian author's essay, obvious endorsed by the official Libertarian Party site? He's a statist who is crapping all over the constitution, engaging is American revisionismy, and slandering and maligning the American settlers and who developed America. The guy is an enemy of the US and spirit of the US Constitution. I've never been a member of that [Libertarian] Party. I agree with the principles outlined in the article I posted from the Cato Institute. Well then -- I'm critical of the LP's "guest" author and opinion, so you shouldn't take my criticism as an indictment of all libertariam positions. Btw, you should be as disturbed as I am over this.
#34. To: Vinny (#24) (Edited) Why not have your...err...leadership give it a test run in say East Los Angeles or Ferguson, MO? Because the people who vote for someone else's money outnumber those who dont. They vote D and R. It's called having principles, not popular in America in this day and age. Next question?
#35. To: Liberator (#33) On the issue of the Illegal Invasion, a Libertarian posting from the official Libertarian Party website is...PRO-ILLEGAL INVASION. When it comes to trade and immigration America's ruling oligarchy is libertarian. We need nationalism that puts America and Americans first.
#36. To: Vinny (#28) Nothing short of an economic collapse will make that [end of welfare] happen. Politics won't allow it. If politicians won't severly and dramatically curtail the ever growing cavones feeding at the public trough (which now includes a good 20 million Mexicans and Third World flotsam), then we don't have a Republic, do we? We have a pure democracy by majority, and tyranny by the few. Yes, the current system is rigged to go down. Any day, week, or year. And here we are burdened and stuck with a flood of parasites who demand FREE STUFF. Just as the Globalist R/D pols planned it.
#37. To: nativist nationalist (#35) When it comes to trade and immigration America's ruling oligarchy is libertarian. We need nationalism that puts America and Americans first. Or have the ruling class oligarchs set the table for an inevitable societal chaos & anarchy so that they can suspend/dump the entire pesky constituion/Bill of Rights thingy? Late in the game, but yep, we'd desperately needed an America-First nationaism (and real President) we haven't seen since Reagan handed over the reigns to Poppy "New World Order" Arbusto. Marking the End Game was the "Mission Accomplished" of 9/11.
#38. To: Dead Culture Watch (#34) Because the people who vote for someone else's money outnumber those who dont. Exactly, that's why libertarianism is the stuff of Timothy Leary.
#39. To: Vinny (#32) Absurd and insane and delusional revisionism. So are we to conclude that now even the LP is sold out/hijacked, along with the Dems and Pubbies? Who or what's left to represent us? (rhetorical)
#40. To: Liberator (#36) Yes, the current system is rigged to go down. Any day, week, or year. And here we are burdened and stuck with a flood of parasites who demand FREE STUFF. Just as the Globalist R/D pols planned it. yep
#41. To: Liberator (#39) Who or what's left to represent us? (rhetorical) In the end many of those with a lifetime of sound judgement will roll off the rails.
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