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Title: So, you claim to be a Born Again Christian
Source: ChristianPatriot.com
URL Source: [None]
Published: Jan 23, 2015
Author: Pastor Bob Celeste for ACP
Post Date: 2015-01-23 12:29:48 by BobCeleste
Keywords: Salvation, Christianity
Views: 30733
Comments: 90

Friday, January 23, 2015 Remember me,

Salvation, John 3:3

So, you claim to be a Born Again Christian, fine, but are you?

Are you one of the many, who while professing to be Born Again find nothing wrong with homosexual sex? Are you amongst the 49% who believe there is nothing wrong with two people living together outside of marriage? Are you part of the one out of three that find the killing of a baby trapped in the womb to be morally acceptable? Are you part of the group that believe that Jesus is your friend and not your master? Are you one of the over 50% who say the Jesus did not live a sinless life, deny the virgin birth, or deny absolute truth of the Bible? Well, if you said yes to any of the above, you are not Saved and going to hell.

Let me paraphrase John 3:3 for you, "Be Born Again or go to hell!" Yes that is a perfect paraphrase of John 3:3.

Now let's look at the Greek word philos, pronounced fee'-los, it means dear, i.e. a friend. It is found 27 times in the New Testament, in not one of those verses is it found in reference to Jesus, not once do we find anyone in the New Testament calling Jesus "friend". Not one of the Apostles call the Lord friend. James, the half brother of the Lord referred to himself as "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ". Not James, the half brother of the Lord, but James the servant of the Lord.

In the Greek it is, James [Iakobos], a servant [doulos] of God [theos] and [kai] of the Lord [Kurios] Jesus [Iesous] Christ [Christos]... The Greek word doulos, pronounced doo'-los means, a slave (literal or figurative, involuntary or voluntary; frequently, therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency):--bond(-man), servant. Not a friend, not a half brother, but slave, bond servant, obeyer of all orders and commands given by the Lord Jesus. Yet over fifty percent of all those calling themselves Born Again, claim that Jesus is their friend, not their master, but their friend, not their owner, but their friend. So, how could they have given their life to the Lord? How can they be Born Again? And if they are not truly Born Again, how can they go anywhere other than the lake of fire?

First we are going to look at the only Scripturally defined method of being Born Again, for the Lord Jesus Christ said in John 3:3, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God! To often that sentence is ended with a period, it is and exclamation, it is a matter of fact, it is not arbitrary, it is an absolute, it means simply this, unless you are Born Again, as defined by Scripture, no matter how good a life you live, you are not even going to see the inside of heaven, you are going to spend eternity in the lake of fire with the devil and it's.

look, if you are one of the very many who said some canned so called Prayer of Salvation and did not comply, 100%, with what The Lord Jesus acknowledge as Born Again, you are not going to heaven, you are going to the lake of fire, I don't know how I can be any clearer. I don't care what the pope says, I don't care what so called Evangelical leaders say, I only care what He, who went up on the cross for us, He who left His kingdom in heaven and came to earth to offer us the one and only way to eternal peace and love with Him in heaven, has to say. And if any who disagree ca find Scripture to contradict this dire warning, so be it, let them do it, but as for those who start by disagreeing with denominational garbage or commentary by others, don't waste your time.


Later today, we are going to look at the one and only Scriptural method of being Born Again.

For those who disagree, prove your point with Scripture or offer yourself on a cross for me and I'll consider what you have to say.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 79.

#24. To: BobCeleste (#0)

Not much place for me in this discussion, but I'll say this:

It defies logic that what a physical brain decides, in good faith, is truth would determine the eternal fate of the connected soul. If God is all powerful and all wise, and all loving, surely he could come up with a better plan for his children than portrayed with the "believe this or burn forever" model.

Under the Michael Newton theological model, one's academic theology is of little importance. Further, life along with all it's tragedy and joy, along with the universe we live in serve a very pragmatic purpose. On both of these points the Newton model works much better. There's more love from God, and more purpose to life, just as much accountability, and complete free will.

Pinguinite  posted on  2015-01-24   14:59:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Pinguinite (#24)

It defies logic that what a physical brain decides, in good faith, is truth would determine the eternal fate of the connected soul. If God is all powerful and all wise, and all loving, surely he could come up with a better plan for his children than portrayed with the "believe this or burn forever" model.

God's plan of salvation is so easy, so straight forward and so absolute so as to allow no one to say it is unfair.

It is the only plan that allows a quadrapalegic that can move no part of his or her body, not even eye lids, to get saved It allows a man or woman, boy or girl any where in the world to do it. It cost no money and requires nothing in return that even the poorest wrench or most powerful multi billionaire cannot afford to do.

And you say it defies logic? Tell me what about the simple requirement that you must be born again, defies logic? Do you know what Born Again is?

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-01-24   19:05:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: BobCeleste (#29)

God's plan of salvation is so easy, so straight forward and so absolute so as to allow no one to say it is unfair.

. . . .

And you say it defies logic? Tell me what about the simple requirement that you must be born again, defies logic? Do you know what Born Again is?

I am indeed familiar with the christian concept of being born again.

The theology of christian salvation is indeed straight forward. What is illogical is that God would have created a master plan that would have required salvation from eternal damnation, thereby resulting in so many of his beloved children to end up in a pit of eternal pain for all eternity.

Even earthly parents love their children so much that no matter how horrible the crimes they commit, they never give up on them. And we are to believe God would love his children less than the amount mortal parents love theirs?

Or if we are to believe that he does indeed love us eternally, that he actually loves his master plan more? Or perhaps that he is bound by his own nature and cannot help but let his kids burn forever, which flies in the face of being "all powerful"?

It is this point which defies logic. If God is indeed all-powerful, all knowing and all wise, then surely he could have come up with a better plan than this.

And I believe he did.

Pinguinite  posted on  2015-01-25   4:32:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Pinguinite (#32)

The theology of christian salvation is indeed straight forward. What is illogical is that God would have created a master plan that would have required salvation from eternal damnation, thereby resulting in so many of his beloved children to end up in a pit of eternal pain for all eternity.

Are you saying that it is wrong for the Creator to have rules? Did you not have any rules for yur kids as they grew up?

But, God does have rules, and His single biggest rule is "Unless you are Born Again, you will not see the kingdom of heaven" John 3:3, now, whether you like the rule or not isn't important, there are lots of rules of man I hate, but must, unless I want to pay the fine of penalty, obey, God's rule is the same, it is not dependent upon your liking it for it to be in force.

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-01-26   11:44:17 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: BobCeleste (#44)

Are you saying that it is wrong for the Creator to have rules? Did you not have any rules for yur kids as they grew up?

It's not a question of liking or not liking the rules. It's a question of what the rules are. It's a question of how things really work. There's the Christian model which involves judgement on what we believed, or the model based on Michael Newton's work, corroborated by thousands through past life recall, which says our harshest (and only) judge will be our very selves, when we understand with much amplified conviction those whom we've harmed and those we've helped and (more to the point) the things we have learned and how we've progressed spiritually. It's a place where love surpasses all earthly deeds in enormous measure, fitting in a way the bible talks about but frankly fails to demonstrate. To a measure far beyond what one is even capable of expecting of a truly Majestic God.

To have an eternal soul condemned for all eternity in a pit of fire over academic knowledge is simply not what an all powerful, all loving God would see fit to do to his children.

I read of your health situation in post #42. I wish you the best. I believe though that the day you/we die, will be the happiest day of our lives, because it's the day we *return* home, the place we came from. Earth is not home, and never has been.

Pinguinite  posted on  2015-01-26   13:26:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Pinguinite, BobCeleste (#51)

"To have an eternal soul condemned for all eternity in a pit of fire over academic knowledge is simply not what an all powerful, all loving God would see fit to do to his children".

One of the classic problems that people bring up is: How can a God of love send anybody to Hell? Well, there are several answers to that.

One of course is that God doesn't send anyone to Hell. You send yourself there. God has done everything He possibly can to keep you out of Hell and still leave you as a person with free will and not just a robot. That's the way He made us-- after His image, after His likeness, the power to say “yes” or the power to say “no,” the power to reject our own Creator, and of course to take the consequences. Across the road to Hell he has placed the cross of Christ. In one sense you can say He doesn't send anybody to Hell, because across the road to Hell he has placed the cross of Christ. There are also the prayers of parents, pastors and Sunday school teachers, and all the other things that God brings into our lives to stop us on our selfish way and to bring us to the Savior. We have to go wandering on past it all and put ourselves in Hell.

Sometimes you hear people say, "God wouldn't send His children to Hell." God certainly doesn't send His children to Hell because when we're His children we're in the family of God. We're born again and part of our salvation includes deliverance from judgment. We're not all children of God except through faith in Christ Jesus.

Can a God of love send anyone to Hell? You might as well ask some other question to make just as much sense. Does God allow disease in the world? Does God allow jails and prisons for some people? Does God allow the electric chair sometimes? Does God allow sin to break homes and hearts? Does God allow war? All of these things are the consequences of sin entering into the world, and in some cases the direct result of man's rebellion, and the result of greed and pride and egotism and hunger for power that doesn't have any use for people-- only the desire to get ahead.

This is the incredible fruit of sin. Sin brings suffering into the world. There's no way of getting around it. And the greatest sin in the world is to reject the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior. SNIP/

Fire burns. Gravity kills. Water drowns. And you can say, "God is love, God is love, God is love," until you're blue in the face. But water will still drown you, fire will burn you, and gravity will kill you, and sin will damn you no matter how much you say about a loving God.

God just set up life that way. He set up the rules. He set up the laws by which we are to live. And if we break those laws, they break us, and we pay the consequences.

All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock it is opened. And yourself, in a dark hour, may will [a grumbling] mood, embrace it. Ye can repent and come out of it again. But there may come a day when you can do that no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticize the mood…

In a sense, the concept of hell gives meaning to our lives. It tells us that the moral choices we make day by day have eternal significance, that our behavior has consequences lasting to eternity, that God Himself takes our choices seriously.

SOURCE

Murron  posted on  2015-01-26   14:18:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: Murron (#56)

One of the classic problems that people bring up is: How can a God of love send anybody to Hell? Well, there are several answers to that.

The explanations you provided are not too unreasonable, but they are not very good either.

You say we have a choice to choose Jesus. But only during a life that could span anywhere from a few minutes to 100 years. I've raised the point in another thread. At what age is one able to make such a decision? Very young children sometimes die. Were their brains ever developed enough to reach that obtuse level of lucidity to make that eternal decision to accept Jesus or not? Should a child who dies in an earthquake 5 minutes after committing a first sin by eating a cookie out of the cookie jar against the parent's command spend eternity in hell? I'm told there are explanations to cover this kind of thing with kids, but even with such explanations, the issue remains a messy one. Then there are those who never had the chance to hear the gospel. Should they be condemned because a Christian failed to obey a command to tell them about Jesus? In order for there to be true justice, some theological tool needs to be created to cover it, maybe something like "God in his wisdom knew they wouldn't have chosen Jesus anyway" so that makes it okay for them to go to hell without actually having been given an actual choice for eternal life.

Theologically, it's messy.

God has done everything He possibly can to keep you out of Hell

Except for the fact that he created hell.... Or perhaps, one might argue, he didn't create it. Maybe sinners created it on their own. In which case he allowed it to be created. Being he is all-powerful, it's kinda hard to say he had nothing to do with it's creation. It's a messy concept.

God doesn't send anyone to Hell. You send yourself there.

The parable of the sheep and the goats seems particularly clear on the point of God / Jesus condemning those labeled goats. It's not a parable about sinners fleeing the love and grace of God by any stretch.

Sometimes you hear people say, "God wouldn't send His children to Hell." God certainly doesn't send His children to Hell because when we're His children we're in the family of God. We're born again and part of our salvation includes deliverance from judgment. We're not all children of God except through faith in Christ Jesus.

Implies that people lack souls until they accept Jesus? People are made into the image of God retroactively upon being saved? If we are not children of God until we are saved, then we are no different from animals before being saved. Why not save animals too. Or why bother saving anyone. Why would Jesus need to come and die to save people that are not children of God? Sorry, but this is, again, messy, messy theology.

This is the incredible fruit of sin. Sin brings suffering into the world. There's no way of getting around it. And the greatest sin in the world is to reject the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior. SNIP/

Christianity pretty much only has negative things to say about suffering and hardship on earth, but in the portrait of the world presented by Newton gives a refreshingly different perspective. Suffering, hardship and tragedy challenge us to make us spiritually stronger. They are not the "fruits of sin", but rather the whole reason we are here. To face such things and try to rise above them. To love others and keep our chins high in spite of whatever horrible things comes our way. Would you not agree that the ability to rise above such misfortune is a sign of a strong, powerful soul? That the greater one is able to rise above deeper chasms of darkness and despair, the more awe inspiring it is?

Pinguinite  posted on  2015-01-27   2:10:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Pinguinite, Murron (#66)

Should a child who dies in an earthquake 5 minutes after committing a first sin by eating a cookie out of the cookie jar against the parent's command spend eternity in hell? I'm told there are explanations to cover this kind of thing with kids, but even with such explanations, the issue remains a messy one.

By "messy" do you mean, "insuffiently unanswerable with any kind of certainty"?

How can the wisdom and justice from God even be questioned OR answered sufficiently? It can't. His justice is...perfect. It doesn't get any better or more fair than that. In this world, of course "fairness" often appears lopsided, but that's without seeing the End Game.

Christianity pretty much only has negative things to say about suffering and hardship on earth, but in the portrait of the world presented by Newton gives a refreshingly different perspective.

Christianity and scripture pretty much assure man that suffering and hardship are inevitable. Scripture also lends wisdom, instruction, purpose and hope to deal with the inevitable.

What do you find "refreshing" about Newton's philosophy in dealing with death and suffering? And how could one trust his word on his version or portrait of "The truth"? I think what people are seeking is...a valid Authority and End Game. Who or what would this be according to Newton? Is it trackable? Does Newton believe there's a genesis or original Creator?

Liberator  posted on  2015-01-27   17:05:52 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Liberator (#70)

By "messy" do you mean, "insuffiently unanswerable with any kind of certainty"?

Theology is messy when it has characteristics that would seem to need "fixing" through the invention of bandaids in order to make the whole thing work reasonably. An example I frequently cite is the question of at what age someone is capable of committing a first sin. Would a new-born baby dying at 1 hour of age go to hell because he didn't accept Jesus, or heaven because they clearly didn't have any opportunity to commit any sin? Assuming it's heaven, then what about dying at age 2? 3? 4? 6? Clearly, the comprehension of the consequences of actions grows slowly as children grow up, and suggesting there is a fixed level of understanding that marks the black/white point of accountability for acts of sin is, well, messy, because it applies a litmus test of salvation to an understanding of Jesus that can vary in degree in several different ways. And that's not even addressing cases of people who have mental handicaps. Some people are mildly handicapped, others severely so. On another thread someone suggested an age of 12 or 13 which was a formal age of spiritual accountability in some way but.... I just see it as "messy" theology that doesn't exist with Newton's portrait of how things work.

How can the wisdom and justice from God even be questioned OR answered sufficiently? It can't. His justice is...perfect. It doesn't get any better or more fair than that. In this world, of course "fairness" often appears lopsided, but that's without seeing the End Game.

Many times the Christian answer to things like "why did my child have to die" or "why did I have to be hit by a car and now be in a wheelchair for the rest of my life" are answered in such ways as "Only God in his great wisdom knows the answers to this". Newton, however, provides much more pragmatic answers that make complete sense, such as "Your child died because you need to learn to accept such tragedy without taking it out on your wife, children or your friends. You need to learn to continue to be a loving father, husband and helpful friend to those around you and not resort to self-pity, bitterness and jealousy toward those who have children, like you've done on your last several lives when this happened". Or "you are now in a wheelchair because you need to learn to accept charitable love from those who care about you, because you have been too arrogant about your own strengths in past lives where you have flaunted the strength of your physical body". Or perhaps "You are in a wheelchair so you can better learn to use your great spiritual abilities to befriend and help others through conversing with them or helping others by writing books. This way your body won't be a distraction".

What do you find "refreshing" about Newton's philosophy in dealing with death and suffering? And how could one trust his word on his version or portrait of "The truth"? I think what people are seeking is...a valid Authority and End Game. Who or what would this be according to Newton? Is it trackable? Does Newton believe there's a genesis or original Creator?

For me, it's not a case of simply taking Newton's word. It's a case of his information corroborating my own experiences, presenting a "clean" theology that not only works well without the need of theological "band-aids", but also works perfectly fine with the current scientific fields in areas of biology, cosmology, as well as ethics and morality. It also corroborates present day accounts of reincarnation, as well as psychological matters of phobias and even parapsychological issues of premonitions, out-of-body experiences, deja vu, child prodigies, even ghosts. In my view, biblical Christianity doesn't come close to providing the answers to contemporary issues and mysteries that Newton does.

I think what people are seeking is...a valid Authority and End Game. Who or what would this be according to Newton? Is it trackable? Does Newton believe there's a genesis or original Creator?

This is too big a question to answer here. I must refer you to his books. I will say though that reincarnation does not happen simply for the purpose of happening. Souls are created on a continuing basis, and we have a first earth life (there are those today on their first life as well as their final life), and we freely choose to return here with each life for a specific purpose(s) or lesson(s), all to improve spiritually. Every life is chosen freely, knowing the circumstances we enter into, so life is always completely fair. We eventually do reach a point where we stop incarnating, when further earthly incarnations are of insufficient value for spiritual development. Thereafter we continue developing in a role that includes guiding lessor developed (younger) souls.

The concept of reincarnation usually strikes people as completely crazy when they first hear of it because it isn't compatible with their current assumptions of whatever sort. As a kid I remember my dad commenting in response to someone on TV espousing reincarnation: "how do you explain the rising population of earth?" (a point I agreed with at the time). But this issue and others are all covered. If one is willing to reconsider long held assumptions about life, then reincarnation can make complete sense. But I do not hold it against anyone for not wanting to consider it, or considering it and discounting it.

Pinguinite  posted on  2015-01-28   18:16:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Pinguinite, liberator, GarySpFc, BobCeleste (#75)

Theology is messy when it has characteristics that would seem to need "fixing" through the invention of bandaids in order to make the whole thing work reasonably. An example I frequently cite is the question of at what age someone is capable of committing a first sin. Would a new-born baby dying at 1 hour of age go to hell because he didn't accept Jesus, or heaven because they clearly didn't have any opportunity to commit any sin? Assuming it's heaven, then what about dying at age 2? 3? 4? 6? Clearly, the comprehension of the consequences of actions grows slowly as children grow up, and suggesting there is a fixed level of understanding that marks the black/white point of accountability for acts of sin is, well, messy, because it applies a litmus test of salvation to an understanding of Jesus that can vary in degree in several different ways. And that's not even addressing cases of people who have mental handicaps. Some people are mildly handicapped, others severely so. On another thread someone suggested an age of 12 or 13 which was a formal age of spiritual accountability in some way but.... I just see it as "messy" theology that doesn't exist with Newton's portrait of how things work.

That's when the entry point or presupposition is based on babies possibly sinniing instead of God's Grace.

This baby issue may be an issue for you and many others. It is not an issue for God.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-29   16:14:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: redleghunter, Pinguinite, GarySpFc, BobCeleste (#76)

That's when the entry point or presupposition is based on babies possibly sinniing instead of God's Grace.

This baby issue may be an issue for you and many others. It is not an issue for God.

Babies and the young who can't know better, don't know better are still covered under God's grace. I realize a lot of the so-called "messy" stuff regarding "sin" comes from Catholic teachings, so naturally a lot of unnecessary confusion, resentment, and hostility toward an "unfair" God arises as a result.

At what point and to what extent God first holds someone responsible can't be measured chronologically, but we can be sure that any "fixed level" of accountability is measured fairly, AND with consideration to environmental factors, etal factors.

As to the mentally handicapped, again, only God can judge (as a matter of knowing their heart.)

(I'll catch up to you Peng on your other notations...)

Liberator  posted on  2015-01-29   19:34:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 79.

#81. To: Liberator (#79)

Babies and the young who can't know better, don't know better are still covered under God's grace. I realize a lot of the so-called "messy" stuff regarding "sin" comes from Catholic teachings, so naturally a lot of unnecessary confusion, resentment, and hostility toward an "unfair" God arises as a result.

At what point and to what extent God first holds someone responsible can't be measured chronologically, but we can be sure that any "fixed level" of accountability is measured fairly, AND with consideration to environmental factors, etal factors.

Where is your scripture for this?

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-01-30 12:42:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 79.

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