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Title: My pastors don’t believe Genesis. Should I leave my church?
Source: creation.com
URL Source: http://creation.com/my-pastor-doesnt-believe-in-genesis
Published: Nov 15, 2014
Author: creation.com
Post Date: 2014-11-15 19:23:45 by CZ82
Keywords: None
Views: 85846
Comments: 223

My pastors don’t believe Genesis. Should I leave my church? Published: 15 November 2014 (GMT+10)

We received the following question from a supporter in Australia who was surprised to discover the pastors of his church did not believe Genesis. Tas Walker talks about some of the issues that need to be considered.

"Hi guys, I love your work, and have subscribed to the magazine and am continually encouraged by what you guys publish".

"I have a question. I’m at a church which I’ve attended for the last 12 years (I’m now 30). I’ve since realized that none of the 3 pastors take a straightforward reading of Genesis, and at least 2 of the 3 (haven’t yet checked the 3rd) don’t even believe the Flood was global. I was wondering if you had some advice on what I should do about this. I have 2 kids and 1 on the way and I want them growing up in a biblically sound church. Apart from Genesis our church is excellent. Do you think leaving the church is too drastic? Love to get your feedback, thanks heaps"!

Tas Walker replies:

Thank you for your question about being part of a church where the pastors do not accept Genesis as written. Unfortunately that is more common these days than it should be.

The decision as to which church you and your family should belong to depends on many different factors. Here are some issues for you to think and pray about.

There is no such thing as a perfect church. In some areas the church may be really good for you but in others it may be totally unhelpful. So you have to balance a lot of factors in your life.

There are usually good reasons in your life why you belong to the church you do, but churches change with time. E.g. sometimes the youth ministry is strong and other times it struggles. Your pastoral team will change and that will bring a different dynamic. So, perhaps by waiting you may see things improve.

Church is not just about what you can get out of it, but it is a place where you can minister to others with your gifts. Your passion and experience with creation may be one area where you can be a blessing to others.

In every church you will have to stand for and speak out the truth, and this can apply to many different issues. In this particular church the issue that you need to bring to others is the truth and foundation of Genesis. But speak the truth in love, with tact and in a winsome way. Look at this as an opportunity to share some wonderful truth that otherwise would not be shared.

Rather than pushing creation in six days on people as if it is your hobby horse, use it to meet their needs as you become aware of them. Thus, you can present the truth to people along the following lines: “You may find this will help resolve some of your doubts and give you a firm foundation as you follow Christ.” I always take back issues of Creation magazine to church, as well as brochures and DVDs, which I freely give to people as the need arises.

Speak the truth in love, with tact and in a winsome way.

You may be influential in the thinking and life of your pastors. It’s important to love them and support them. Don’t be divisive or argumentative. Don’t be a one-issue person but show that you are interested in the wider ministry of the church and that your passion is to serve Jesus Christ and to help others come to Him and grow in Him. Here are two examples of how a person in the pews was pivotal in helping their minister come to the truth of Genesis: A young man in a church lent a book to his minister who was big enough to read the book and research the issue and who changed his mind (see Esa Hukkinen interview).

This pastor, Owen Butt, believed Genesis was myth but changed his mind after attending a creation meeting, and that changed his whole approach to ministry. What this article does not say is that it was one of his congregation who fed him information and invited him to the creation meeting, where his whole way of thinking was changed (See Catching the vision).

Make sure that your family is properly instructed in the truth of Genesis and creation by providing books, DVDs and other resources for them. Talk about the question and issues as they arise. However, note that it is really important to always speak in a positive way about your pastors and your church, especially with your children. If there is a critical spirit and an undermining of your pastors and your church in your home, that will poison things for your children.

If the situation becomes very difficult for you, with say the pastors instructing you not to talk about the issue you may need to think about moving. In the same way, you could not accept a ministry offer from the pastors if they included a condition that you could not talk about creation in that ministry or in the church. So if there is a hardening and aggressiveness develops toward your position, say from the pulpit, you may need to think about moving.

In our life’s entire journey it is important to seek the Lord and His will for our lives.

“If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.” James 1:5

God bless,

Tas Walker

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#121. To: SOSO (#82)

Awfully sloppy of God, wouldn't you say?

How so?

John 14:

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.(KJV)

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-15   22:51:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: SOSO (#116)

You forgot the repentence aspect of forgiveness.

Au contaire. I wrote: "God's forgiving, but step one is STOP DOING IT (whatever IT is)."

"Repent" means "turn back", from sin - stop sinning. I didn't forget about repentance: I put it front and center.

When Jesus began his public ministry, the first thing he said was "Stop Sinning" ("Repent").

The other aspect of forgiveness, as Jesus himself preached it, was that human sins against God are forgiven if, and only if, and only to the extent, that humans forgive other humans their sins. "As you measure, so shall you be measured."

These were Jesus' main teachings on the subject: God will forgive your sins, but you need to stop doing it, and to the extent you have sins, you need to be forgiven. And to be forgiven, you have to forgive.

That's what Jesus said. He said it plain. He didn't give some other formula, so that's the formula. He said men are judged by their deeds, repent, stop sinning, and if you want to be forgiven, then forgive others: "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

Not much to argue with there: those are the commandments. It's not even particularly hard.

The answer to your question is stop sinning. And if you can't or don't, then be very forgiving.

You wrote about "Original Sin", but these words are not in Scripture.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-15   22:51:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: yukon (#85)

Hey Yukon.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-15   22:52:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: Vicomte13 (#122)

You wrote about "Original Sin", but these words are not in Scripture.

But the act is amply described, as is the consequences to Adam and Eve and their progeny. A rose by any other name my friend.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   23:03:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: SOSO (#89)

I am much more persuaded by the notion of one knowing God and Jesus through their heart, through the gift of faith bestowed upon us by God Himself as opposed to knowing Him solely through Scripture.

What you posted above is evidenced in Scriptures.

Just have to flip to 1 Corinthians 13:

1 Corinthians 13 King James Version (KJV)

13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.(KJV)

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-15   23:03:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: SOSO, liberator (#89)

IMO religion, churches just get in the way of the realtionship between God and Man. We do not need a flawed human institution to act as a middleman. I have enough personal flaws to satisfy that condition. And we don't need a made made channel to Him to realize what He already made available to us at birth.

I do not criticize those that feel that they need a helping hand to realize their relationship with God. To the extent that Churches do that all well and good. I just remind you that we are redeemed individually, one soul at a time not as a commuinty where it is all in or all out.

I have to say you make a good point. The NT example of the assembly or church, or called out ones, was to gather to share the Lord's Supper, praise God, teach His written Word. It was a loving community, gathering fellowship of the Body of Christ, His church His called out ones.

They read from scrolls and codexes, those who could not read listened. They shared as a body. The elders/bishops were shepherds of the flock, not bedecked in gold and satin with a mitre. The elders (plural) reproved, corrected and disciplined according to the Scriptures they had (OT) and sermons of the apostles and also epistles written down. Like good Bereans when conflicts arose they went to the well of Scriptures. We see this in the early church father's writings.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-15   23:14:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: redleghunter (#125)

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.(KJV)

I thought it was love?

New International Version - And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

New Living Translation - Three things will last forever--faith, hope, and love--and the greatest of these is love.

English Standard Version - So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

New American Standard Bible - But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

King James Bible - And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Holman Christian Standard Bible - Now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.

International Standard Version - Right now three things remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.

NET Bible - And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English - For there are these three things that endure: Faith, Hope and Love, but the greatest of these is Love.

GOD'S WORD® Translation - So these three things remain: faith, hope, and love. But the best one of these is love.

Jubilee Bible 2000 - And now abide faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

King James 2000 Bible - And now abides faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

American King James Version - And now stays faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

American Standard Version - But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

Douay-Rheims Bible - And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.

Darby Bible Translation - And now abide faith, hope, love; these three things; and the greater of these [is] love.

English Revised Version - But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

Webster's Bible Translation - And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Weymouth New Testament - And so there remain Faith, Hope, Love--these three; and of these the greatest is Love.

World English Bible - But now faith, hope, and love remain--these three. The greatest of these is love.

Young's Literal Translation - and now there doth remain faith, hope, love -- these three; and the greatest of these is love.

Yep, love over charity 16-5. But among the three King James versions it charity over love by 2-1.

I trust the point isn't lost on you.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   23:20:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: SOSO, liberator (#91)

I would almost universally agree with that. There still are those true moral delimenas in which we as mortal men must make a choice between two conflicing moral actions, aka as the lesser of evils. IMO that is why God has endowed man with both free will and a conscience. Men seem to be willing to more freely exercise the former over the latter. Humans can rationalize just about anything if they turn down the volume of that inner Godly voice.

Well yes. God created us with a brain housing group between our ears. He expects us to use that brain, to employ some logic in our decisions. Just think of some old toolie engineer not using his brain. Disaster!

I think the correct and logical approach to the moral dilemma you pose can easily be addressed with the following:

"Is what I am doing or thinking about doing bring glory to God?"

If we who call on the Name of Jesus Christ address our actions in such a way then we can avoid the majority of the stupid things we do trying to rationalize stuff.

With that logical brain we have a conscience.

But again, God has some work He does first.

Ezekiel 36:

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.(KJV)

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-15   23:24:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: Palo Verde (#93)

Hi Palo. This bunch (me included) is just getting warmed up:)

However I have to say this is the most cordial exchange I've seen in some time.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-15   23:28:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: redleghunter, liberator (#128)

I think the correct and logical approach to the moral dilemma you pose can easily be addressed with the following:

"Is what I am doing or thinking about doing bring glory to God?"

That's fine when one or the other choice may bring glory to God. Unfortunately this falls apart when both choices do not bring glory to God as each will offend some of His expectations of us in one way or another.

Of course the overarching question is what man determines what God considers to be glorious to being with any degree of certainty?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   23:30:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: Vicomte13 (#100)

When a fox is in the bottle where the tweetle beetles battle with their paddles in a puddle on a noodle-eating poodle. THIS is what they call... ...a tweetle beetle noodle poodle bottle paddled muddled duddled fuddled wuddled fox in socks, sir!" - Seuss

Yep pretty much sums it up. You can leave the religion forum there for years and come back and its the same stuff.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-15   23:31:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: redleghunter, SOSO (#128)

Well yes. God created us with a brain housing group between our ears. He expects us to use that brain, to employ some logic in our decisions. Just think of some old toolie engineer not using his brain. Disaster!

I think the correct and logical approach to the moral dilemma you pose can easily be addressed with the following:

"Is what I am doing or thinking about doing bring glory to God?"

If we who call on the Name of Jesus Christ address our actions in such a way then we can avoid the majority of the stupid things we do trying to rationalize stuff.

With that logical brain we have a conscience.

I also can see SOSO point on some slightly ambiguous confusion. Which "coaching staff" is right about the playbook?

Using a football analogy, charting X's and O's on the chaulkboard mean less than executing the play in the field, and adjusting accordingly to the defense. The clinical play design doesn't take into account the heart and will of the player overcome the wind, bad footing, or a bad day.

Liberator  posted on  2015-01-15   23:38:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: SOSO (#101)

So Ghandi is in Heaven as is every good orthodox Rabbi and every good person that has not done those things. Great, that's what I always believed. BTW, I had to look up the word pharmakeia:) Is aspirin included?

I guess the question would be did Ghandi and the orthodox Rabbi come to Jesus Christ for salvation. Did they trust in the finished Work of Christ's death and resurrection?

John 11:25King James Version (KJV)

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 14 King James Version (KJV)

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-15   23:39:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: Liberator, redleghunter (#132)

Using a football analogy, charting X's and O's on the chaulkboard mean less than executing the play in the field, and adjusting accordingly to the defense. The clinical play design doesn't take into account the heart and will of the player overcome the wind, bad footing, or a bad day.

Or calling the right play at the right time.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   23:41:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#135. To: redleghunter (#133)

I guess the question would be did Ghandi and the orthodox Rabbi come to Jesus Christ for salvation. Did they trust in the finished Work of Christ's death and resurrection?

When? Was there a deathbed conversion or acceptance? Or did they see the light once they actually saw the Light?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   23:43:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: SOSO, redleghunter (#130)

Of course the overarching question is what man determines what God considers to be glorious to being with any degree of certainty?

Are we back to the fundamental, "Love your neighbors as you love yourself"? Sharing the Gospel? Being Christ's light in the dark?

Liberator  posted on  2015-01-15   23:45:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#137. To: SOSO, redleghunter (#134)

Or calling the right play at the right time.

The "right play" is always God first. The right time is now. Today. Tomorrow.

Liberator  posted on  2015-01-15   23:47:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: GarySpFC, Vicomte13, liberator, SOSO (#104)

Ping

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-15   23:52:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#139. To: Liberator, redleghunter (#136)

Are we back to the fundamental, "Love your neighbors as you love yourself"? Sharing the Gospel? Being Christ's light in the dark?

I don't think so. I am referring to a crisis of conscience within an individual when he has to make a choice when, all things equal, neither action is acceptable to what he believes God expects of him. A trite example might be whether or not a man should stand by and watch his wife and children be murdered by a nutso when the man had the capacity to save his family by killing the nutso as he commenced to do harm to the man's family.

God says thou shall not kill. Does He mean that in the absoulte in every circumstance? Or does He expect you to protect the lives of your family even if it meant that you had to kill to do so?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   23:54:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#140. To: Vicomte13 (#109)

Step 2 is: forgive other people. You're forgiven, by God, for your offenses against him, to the extent that you forgive others' offenses against you. The extent you refuse to do that, you're not forgiven either.

Also, we ought to remember that the status in the City of God of everybody who passes judgment is not the same. There are the least in "Heaven" (really the City). They're THERE, but they're the least. It's better than the lake of fire, but still...

Strive for better and you can have better. Or do the minimum and sweep the streets.

It's better than burning.

You missed the overarching piece. The actual Gospel.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-15   23:59:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#141. To: redleghunter, SOSO (#133)

That's a winning playbook, Red :-)

SOSO: "So Ghandi is in Heaven as is every good orthodox Rabbi and every good person that has not done those things. Great, that's what I always believed."

Gandhi was a "good" person; So were/are many Rabbis. So were/are many atheists.

I realize this is troubling and disturbing -- we all have friends and family who are compassionate, GOOD people. But they may not have bought into or understood the concept of Salvation for sinners through Jesus Christ. Nor believe in it. Red has cited Jesus' own words, warnings, and conditions in Scripture -- with authority. The most definitive, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Now what? The minute we are all on the other side, what then? Was/is Jesus a liar? A crazy man? If Christ is indeed who He says he is; If He HAS fulfilled propecy as THE Messiah. Then what IS the lot of Disbelievers? Jesus is the Gate Keeper.

Some people fear "Hell." Others fear separation from the Lord. "Narrow is the road" indeed.

Liberator  posted on  2015-01-16   0:07:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#142. To: SOSO, redleghunter (#139)

God says thou shall not kill. Does He mean that in the absoulte in every circumstance? Or does He expect you to protect the lives of your family even if it meant that you had to kill to do so?

Murder is not the same as Killing. The Almighty has hardwired us to defend ourselves AND family. Defending ourselves with lethal force is NOT premeditated murder. He know our heart in any case. JMO.

Liberator  posted on  2015-01-16   0:11:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#143. To: SOSO (#127)

I trust the point isn't lost on you.

No it's not. The KJV is public domain so more appropriate to use when quoting multiple passages. In the Shakespearean lingo of the day "charity" was "love" to us. Just as britches are now pants:)

Charity from the lexicon is 'agape' in the Greek:

affection, good will, love, benevolence, brotherly love

If you want to look at an interesting conversation between Jesus Christ and Peter go here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm? b=Jhn&c=21&t=KJV#s=t_conc_1018015

The above is a good tool for you to reference.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-16   0:18:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#144. To: Liberator (#141)

Was/is Jesus a liar?

That is not the issue. The issue are the ones that claim to relay Christ's words to us reliable scribes. There was quite a bit of time from when Christ actually spoke His words to when they were wriiten down. And most of the writting is not from firsthand interaction with Christ but via hearsay. Memories are fallible. Language is fallible. There has been more than ample opportunity for slippage from Christ's mouth to your and my ear.

Christ also says thou shll not kill. So all those Christians that went to war in defense of their country are in Hell I rather doubt that.

What exactly does "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." mean. Yes, Christ will judge us but exactly when? At the moment of our death? At the moment that we confront His judgement? Thomas didn't believe until Christ let him touch His wounds. And Thomas was an Apostle. I suspect that if Thomas rejected Christ after he touched His wounds Tom would be in a world of hurt rather than venerated. Well we all will get our chance to touch Christ's wounds. What then?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-16   0:23:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#145. To: SOSO, liberator (#130)

Of course the overarching question is what man determines what God considers to be glorious to being with any degree of certainty?

That's not hard to figure out.

First we have the scriptures God revealed to us. Second Jesus Christ promised the Comfortor, The Holy Spirit to give us understanding.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-16   0:24:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#146. To: SOSO, redleghunter (#144)

Outta gas, gents.

Thanks for the interesting, spirited debate.

Liberator  posted on  2015-01-16   0:25:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#147. To: redleghunter (#143)

In the Shakespearean lingo of the day "charity" was "love" to us. Just as britches are now pants:)

You make my point. The meaning of words change over time, and usually a relatively short period of time. Thirty years ago gay meant happy, gleeful. What does it mean today?

Worse yret, when it comes to scripture much of it is in dead languages. And for those that are still around the nuances of words have changed over time. One cannot be certain what the nuance of the word agape was two thousand years ago.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-16   0:27:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#148. To: Liberator, redleghunter (#146)

Outta gas, gents.

Thanks for the interesting, spirited debate.

Fear not, there is likely plenty more to come.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-16   0:28:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#149. To: Liberator, SOSO (#132)

Using a football analogy, charting X's and O's on the chaulkboard mean less than executing the play in the field, and adjusting accordingly to the defense. The clinical play design doesn't take into account the heart and will of the player overcome the wind, bad footing, or a bad day.

I hear ya. If someone says different they are not being honest.

See how the apostle Paul addresses the same matter in Romans 7:

Romans 7 New King James Version (NKJV)

7 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God— through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Scripture taken from the New King James Version®. Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson. Used by permission. All rights reserved.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-16   0:34:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#150. To: SOSO, Liberator (#134)

Or calling the right play at the right time.

Jesus Christ gave us the game plan. If we call audibles, then we will be rushed, hurried, hit and maybe sacked.

Stick with the Head Coach's game plan.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-16   0:38:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#151. To: SOSO (#135)

I posed the question Jasper.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-16   0:39:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#152. To: SOSO, liberator (#139)

A trite example might be whether or not a man should stand by and watch his wife and children be murdered by a nutso when the man had the capacity to save his family by killing the nutso as he commenced to do harm to the man's family.

That's easy. If we have the capacity to stop the shedding of innocent blood and do nothing about it, then we are guilty of that shed blood. So, if killing the nut protects innocent life we have a moral right to defend.

Even in Luke 22 Jesus Christ allowed his disciples to have two swords between them for defense.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-16   0:55:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#153. To: Liberator, liberator, GarySpFc (#141)

I realize this is troubling and disturbing -- we all have friends and family who are compassionate, GOOD people. But they may not have bought into or understood the concept of Salvation for sinners through Jesus Christ. Nor believe in it. Red has cited Jesus' own words, warnings, and conditions in Scripture -- with authority. The most definitive, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

All good points.

Let's apply the "glory to God aspect" to your words above. Do people who do good works, and kind do so to glorify God? If not who or what is the object of their affection to do so? The poor? The human 'spirit'? A tax deduction? Or glory to self to feel good about doing something. Even garnering "favor" from God for one to justify one self to be in His presence?

Who gets the glory, the praise from Ghandi's works and compassion? Auntie Maye working in the soup kitchen? We look to these wonderful works of love and compassion but where is that "energy" directed and for whose glory? If for The Father in the Name of Jesus Christ, then Amen! If not, it glorifies something or someone else other than God.

Here is an example of a man and His household who did acts of mercy, were kind to others and prayed to God to do the right thing. It is a true story of a man who knew what God wanted, prayed for such but did not have Jesus as his savior. This man did not travel to Jerusalem to seek out an apostle to hear the Gospel. He prayed and his prayer pleased God. This man didn't even have to leave his home. God sent an apostle with an armed escort to his house to hear the Gospel!

Here below is the story of our mystery man:

Acts 10 New King James Version (NKJV)

10 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius!”

4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, “What is it, lord?”

So he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter. 6 He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea.[a] He will tell you what you must do.” 7 And when the angel who spoke to him had departed, Cornelius called two of his household servants and a devout soldier from among those who waited on him continually. 8 So when he had explained all these things to them, he sent them to Joppa.

[…………………………………………………………………………………………………………] 24 And the following day they entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting for them, and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” 27 And as he talked with him, he went in and found many who had come together. 28 Then he said to them, “You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean. 29 Therefore I came without objection as soon as I was sent for. I ask, then, for what reason have you sent for me?”

34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— 37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they[e] killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-16   1:17:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#154. To: SOSO, Liberator (#144)

That is not the issue. The issue are the ones that claim to relay Christ's words to us reliable scribes. There was quite a bit of time from when Christ actually spoke His words to when they were wriiten down.

Was ready to list out the verses, but found the below which addresses your questions:

Further, we can take note of the following verses that demonstrate God’s plan to preserve His Word. In Matthew 5:18, Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.” In this verse Jesus declared that not even the smallest stroke of a letter in the Hebrew alphabet would pass away until all is accomplished. He couldn’t make that promise unless He was sure that God would preserve His Word. Jesus also said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away” (Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33). Jesus again affirms that God’s Word will not pass away. God’s Word will remain and accomplish that which God has planned.

The prophet Isaiah, through the power of the Holy Spirit, stated that God’s Word would remain forever. “The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever” (Isaiah 40:8). This was reaffirmed in the New Testament when Peter quoted the same passage and referred to it as “the word that was preached to you” (1 Peter 1:24-25). Neither Isaiah nor Peter could make such statements without the understanding of God’s preservation of Scripture.

More here:

God's Preservation of Scriptures

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-16   1:34:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#155. To: Liberator (#146)

Later Bro.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-16   1:35:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#156. To: SOSO (#135)

When? Was there a deathbed conversion or acceptance? Or did they see the light once they actually saw the Light?

Hmmmm, so seeing the light will get you two $3 bills and one $8 bill in change? John 3:19

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org/Bible

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-01-16   1:39:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#157. To: GarySpFC (#156)

Indeed.

The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”(Isaiah 40:8)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-16   1:45:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#158. To: SOSO (#144)

That is not the issue. The issue are the ones that claim to relay Christ's words to us reliable scribes. There was quite a bit of time from when Christ actually spoke His words to when they were wriiten down. And most of the writting is not from firsthand interaction with Christ but via hearsay. Memories are fallible. Language is fallible. There has been more than ample opportunity for slippage from Christ's mouth to your and my ear.

Imagine that! All that hearsay upon hearsay in God's Word has made it null and void.

Soso brings up a very important question, and that asks, how long did the manuscripts last? Now, I have here in mind the originals, the autographs, but also the earliest copies.
Just for illustration, let’s think of Matthew. Let’s suppose Matthew’s Gospel was written in the year 75. It might have been written some years earlier, maybe even a few years later, but we’ll just say, in the year 75. How long did it last? How long did it circulate?
I asked a professor, when I was in grad school many years ago, this very question. “How long do you think the autographs lasted?” I asked. “Oh,” he said, “I don’t know—10, 20 years.” The answer, at that time, seemed reasonable to me. We think of our cheap paperbacks, read several times—the spine begins to crack; pages start to fall out. Surely these precious documents would have been eagerly read by many people over and over again.
So after 10 or 20 years, maybe the original Matthew was falling to pieces and was discarded, and other copies were made, and so on. In fact, if—let’s say every manuscript lasted about 10 years, and then there was a copy made, and that copy lasted 10 years, and another copy was made. Over the course of 150 years—or from, say, the year 75 to 225—we could have as many as 15 generations. Each time there’s a new copy made, probably some more scribal errors are introduced; more variance enters into the text.
So after 15 such generations, who knows? Maybe the text of Matthew in AD 225 would be very different from the original Matthew that was composed by the evangelist in the year 75. So this is the backdrop, just—that kind of assumption. Is there evidence that shows that that is so? Or perhaps the evidence shows something else.

Well, in a recent study published in 2009, there was an analysis of 53 libraries from antiquity that have been recovered intact. And what I mean by that is, the entire library: the actual literature itself—the various books—as well as supporting documentation, private letters, and things like that. The entire collection was dumped at the same time. So when scholars were sifting through the dry sands of Egypt, or whatever the location is, all of these books were found together.
Of course, this is wonderful, because the books then can be studied together. We not only have copies of literature, but we have letters that have dates on them. We have correspondence talking about the books—requests that a new one be copied, or a request that one that had been loaned out be returned, and so forth. And so this kind of information has enabled scholars to reconstruct the history of the library, as it were.
Now, I’m talking about 53 libraries—not archives, business papers, and that sort of thing, but libraries, [consisting] of literature. The smallest library that’s been analyzed had 12 books in it, and some of the largest have close to 1,000 books. Many of these libraries that were found intact were recovered from the dry sands of Oxyrhynchus, Egypt, where about a half million texts were recovered from 1896 on into the 20th century, when the digging finally came to an end.
What we’ve learned is that these libraries contained books that were in use, before being retired or discarded—were in use anywhere from 150 years to 500 years. It was noticed that most of these books fell in the 200- to 300-year range before being retired or discarded or thrown out. This has enormous implications for our understanding of the NT manuscripts and [for] our question: How long were they used? What was their longevity before they were retired or thrown out?

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org/Bible

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-01-16   2:06:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#159. To: SOSO (#147)

Worse yret, when it comes to scripture much of it is in dead languages. And for those that are still around the nuances of words have changed over time. One cannot be certain what the nuance of the word agape was two thousand years ago.

Let's see. I have one love letter from my sweetie, and I'm having trouble understanding what she means by the word "love." Unfortunately, or fortunately, I have 35,000 letters from her, and she used the word love in many of them.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org/Bible

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-01-16   2:16:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#160. To: TooConservative (#86)

You would know.

Shouldn't that read "As if you would know"? /s

“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”

CZ82  posted on  2015-01-16   6:49:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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