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Title: My pastors don’t believe Genesis. Should I leave my church?
Source: creation.com
URL Source: http://creation.com/my-pastor-doesnt-believe-in-genesis
Published: Nov 15, 2014
Author: creation.com
Post Date: 2014-11-15 19:23:45 by CZ82
Keywords: None
Views: 78917
Comments: 223

My pastors don’t believe Genesis. Should I leave my church? Published: 15 November 2014 (GMT+10)

We received the following question from a supporter in Australia who was surprised to discover the pastors of his church did not believe Genesis. Tas Walker talks about some of the issues that need to be considered.

"Hi guys, I love your work, and have subscribed to the magazine and am continually encouraged by what you guys publish".

"I have a question. I’m at a church which I’ve attended for the last 12 years (I’m now 30). I’ve since realized that none of the 3 pastors take a straightforward reading of Genesis, and at least 2 of the 3 (haven’t yet checked the 3rd) don’t even believe the Flood was global. I was wondering if you had some advice on what I should do about this. I have 2 kids and 1 on the way and I want them growing up in a biblically sound church. Apart from Genesis our church is excellent. Do you think leaving the church is too drastic? Love to get your feedback, thanks heaps"!

Tas Walker replies:

Thank you for your question about being part of a church where the pastors do not accept Genesis as written. Unfortunately that is more common these days than it should be.

The decision as to which church you and your family should belong to depends on many different factors. Here are some issues for you to think and pray about.

There is no such thing as a perfect church. In some areas the church may be really good for you but in others it may be totally unhelpful. So you have to balance a lot of factors in your life.

There are usually good reasons in your life why you belong to the church you do, but churches change with time. E.g. sometimes the youth ministry is strong and other times it struggles. Your pastoral team will change and that will bring a different dynamic. So, perhaps by waiting you may see things improve.

Church is not just about what you can get out of it, but it is a place where you can minister to others with your gifts. Your passion and experience with creation may be one area where you can be a blessing to others.

In every church you will have to stand for and speak out the truth, and this can apply to many different issues. In this particular church the issue that you need to bring to others is the truth and foundation of Genesis. But speak the truth in love, with tact and in a winsome way. Look at this as an opportunity to share some wonderful truth that otherwise would not be shared.

Rather than pushing creation in six days on people as if it is your hobby horse, use it to meet their needs as you become aware of them. Thus, you can present the truth to people along the following lines: “You may find this will help resolve some of your doubts and give you a firm foundation as you follow Christ.” I always take back issues of Creation magazine to church, as well as brochures and DVDs, which I freely give to people as the need arises.

Speak the truth in love, with tact and in a winsome way.

You may be influential in the thinking and life of your pastors. It’s important to love them and support them. Don’t be divisive or argumentative. Don’t be a one-issue person but show that you are interested in the wider ministry of the church and that your passion is to serve Jesus Christ and to help others come to Him and grow in Him. Here are two examples of how a person in the pews was pivotal in helping their minister come to the truth of Genesis: A young man in a church lent a book to his minister who was big enough to read the book and research the issue and who changed his mind (see Esa Hukkinen interview).

This pastor, Owen Butt, believed Genesis was myth but changed his mind after attending a creation meeting, and that changed his whole approach to ministry. What this article does not say is that it was one of his congregation who fed him information and invited him to the creation meeting, where his whole way of thinking was changed (See Catching the vision).

Make sure that your family is properly instructed in the truth of Genesis and creation by providing books, DVDs and other resources for them. Talk about the question and issues as they arise. However, note that it is really important to always speak in a positive way about your pastors and your church, especially with your children. If there is a critical spirit and an undermining of your pastors and your church in your home, that will poison things for your children.

If the situation becomes very difficult for you, with say the pastors instructing you not to talk about the issue you may need to think about moving. In the same way, you could not accept a ministry offer from the pastors if they included a condition that you could not talk about creation in that ministry or in the church. So if there is a hardening and aggressiveness develops toward your position, say from the pulpit, you may need to think about moving.

In our life’s entire journey it is important to seek the Lord and His will for our lives.

“If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.” James 1:5

God bless,

Tas Walker

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 218.

#1. To: CZ82 (#0)

If you don't believe Genesis. Then what exactly would be the reason for Jesus? To redeem us from what?

A K A Stone  posted on  2014-11-15   22:03:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: A K A Stone (#1)

If you don't believe Genesis. Then what exactly would be the reason for Jesus? To redeem us from what?

There is an answer to your question, and I am willing to answer it for you.

There is a completely different way to read the Bible.

The traditional way, which came out of traditional Catholic and Orthodox thinking, itself came out of traditional Jewish thinking. After all, all 12 Apostles and Paul were Middle Eastern Jews, from the land of Israel and its environs, by birth and culture. Jesus was too, of course, but he is different because of who his Father was and the special knowledge and power he had.

The traditional way of seeing it saw the Christian Church as the continuation of the Jewish revelation. While this is certainly true, the key features of it where that the Apostles and the traditionalists did not simply valorize the revelations of God, but also the particular historical and cultural achievements of Israel. They understood God's plan of salvation in a certain way.

To follow the traditional thread of thinking, God made man, man fell, and this fall, this original sin, left an imprint of sin on the character of each man. Because of this sin, man could not attain heaven after death. In order to save man, eventually, God chose one people, the Hebrews, and gave them The Law. The Jews waxed and waned, and did not follow the law perfectly. So God sent Jesus to bring the whole world into salvation. Under the Jewish law, the blood of animals released sin, but could not completely release a man of all of his sins. But with Jesus, baptism wipes away original sin, and the blood of Christ's sacrifice is the final, perfect lamb of the Jewish sacrificial cycle, which takes away the sins of the whole world (and not just the Jews). So, through adoption, the world are all Messianic Jews. The reason for Jesus, under the traditional view, is to redeem us from our sins as laid out under the Jewish law. The assumption is that a perfect adherence to the Jewish Law would have led to salvation, but nobody could do it, and so Jesus was sent to do it for everybody.

That's the traditional view, and that view depends on the existence of Adam and Eve as literally described in order to establish the Original Sin that needs to be wiped away.

That's the traditional read and understanding. It's what Paul understood he was doing.

There is a very different way to read the same text. It too arrives at the necessity of Jesus, doing what Jesus did, with the ultimate net result, but which understands what happened along the way, and the role of the Jews in it, very differently.

It takes some time to write out, and engenders tremendous hostility among those who see things through the traditional lens, so I'm not too terrible eager to spend the time to write it out and then get beaten upon. Unfortunately the beatings will happen, because writing out what others believe without criticizing it leaves the impression that one advocates that, because people become furious at anything they perceive as a challenge to their traditional beliefs.

If you really want to understand how people of good faith and sincerity can think Jesus is vital to salvation without accepting the Adam and Eve or Flood stories as literal, I am willing to go ahead and write it out. But I'm not too eager to deal myself a crap sandwich, and that's what experience tells me I'm going to get if I start actually talking about these things.

So you tell me, do you really want to know the answer to your question? And are you willing to hear the answer without ripping my head off?

Vicomte13  posted on  2014-11-17   11:12:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#208. To: Vicomte13 (#5)

Status: Logged In; Check Pings Bible Study See other Bible Study Articles

Title: My pastors don’t believe Genesis. Should I leave my church? Source: creation.com URL Source: http://creation.com/my-pastor-doesnt-believe-in-genesis Published: Nov 15, 2014 Author: creation.com Post Date: 2014-11-15 19:23:45 by CZ82 Keywords: None Views: 60571 Comments: 207 My pastors don’t believe Genesis. Should I leave my church? Published: 15 November 2014 (GMT+10)

We received the following question from a supporter in Australia who was surprised to discover the pastors of his church did not believe Genesis. Tas Walker talks about some of the issues that need to be considered.

"Hi guys, I love your work, and have subscribed to the magazine and am continually encouraged by what you guys publish".

"I have a question. I’m at a church which I’ve attended for the last 12 years (I’m now 30). I’ve since realized that none of the 3 pastors take a straightforward reading of Genesis, and at least 2 of the 3 (haven’t yet checked the 3rd) don’t even believe the Flood was global. I was wondering if you had some advice on what I should do about this. I have 2 kids and 1 on the way and I want them growing up in a biblically sound church. Apart from Genesis our church is excellent. Do you think leaving the church is too drastic? Love to get your feedback, thanks heaps"!

Tas Walker replies:

Thank you for your question about being part of a church where the pastors do not accept Genesis as written. Unfortunately that is more common these days than it should be.

The decision as to which church you and your family should belong to depends on many different factors. Here are some issues for you to think and pray about.

There is no such thing as a perfect church. In some areas the church may be really good for you but in others it may be totally unhelpful. So you have to balance a lot of factors in your life.

There are usually good reasons in your life why you belong to the church you do, but churches change with time. E.g. sometimes the youth ministry is strong and other times it struggles. Your pastoral team will change and that will bring a different dynamic. So, perhaps by waiting you may see things improve.

Church is not just about what you can get out of it, but it is a place where you can minister to others with your gifts. Your passion and experience with creation may be one area where you can be a blessing to others.

In every church you will have to stand for and speak out the truth, and this can apply to many different issues. In this particular church the issue that you need to bring to others is the truth and foundation of Genesis. But speak the truth in love, with tact and in a winsome way. Look at this as an opportunity to share some wonderful truth that otherwise would not be shared.

Rather than pushing creation in six days on people as if it is your hobby horse, use it to meet their needs as you become aware of them. Thus, you can present the truth to people along the following lines: “You may find this will help resolve some of your doubts and give you a firm foundation as you follow Christ.” I always take back issues of Creation magazine to church, as well as brochures and DVDs, which I freely give to people as the need arises.

Speak the truth in love, with tact and in a winsome way.

You may be influential in the thinking and life of your pastors. It’s important to love them and support them. Don’t be divisive or argumentative. Don’t be a one-issue person but show that you are interested in the wider ministry of the church and that your passion is to serve Jesus Christ and to help others come to Him and grow in Him. Here are two examples of how a person in the pews was pivotal in helping their minister come to the truth of Genesis: A young man in a church lent a book to his minister who was big enough to read the book and research the issue and who changed his mind (see Esa Hukkinen interview).

This pastor, Owen Butt, believed Genesis was myth but changed his mind after attending a creation meeting, and that changed his whole approach to ministry. What this article does not say is that it was one of his congregation who fed him information and invited him to the creation meeting, where his whole way of thinking was changed (See Catching the vision).

Make sure that your family is properly instructed in the truth of Genesis and creation by providing books, DVDs and other resources for them. Talk about the question and issues as they arise. However, note that it is really important to always speak in a positive way about your pastors and your church, especially with your children. If there is a critical spirit and an undermining of your pastors and your church in your home, that will poison things for your children.

If the situation becomes very difficult for you, with say the pastors instructing you not to talk about the issue you may need to think about moving. In the same way, you could not accept a ministry offer from the pastors if they included a condition that you could not talk about creation in that ministry or in the church. So if there is a hardening and aggressiveness develops toward your position, say from the pulpit, you may need to think about moving.

In our life’s entire journey it is important to seek the Lord and His will for our lives.

“If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.” James 1:5

God bless,

Tas Walker

Post Comment Private Reply Bookmark Ignore Thread Edit

Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest #1. To: CZ82 (#0)

If you don't believe Genesis. Then what exactly would be the reason for Jesus? To redeem us from what?

A K A Stone posted on 2014-11-15 22:03:18 ET Reply Trace Private Reply Edit

#2. To: A K A Stone, BobCeleste, liberator (#1)

The article's title is simple to answer.

Ask the pastor if he supports homosexual 'marriage.'

Ask the pastor if he supports human life beginning at conception.

Ask the pastor if he supports church members divorcing and remarriage and remaining in the assembly.

Ask the pastor if he believes God through Moses literally parted the Red Sea; if God through Joshua made the walls of Jericho collapse. (If they answer all of the above affirmatively, then ask why not believe Genesis is literally true)

If they have problems answering the above questions find another assembly. If the pastor happens to be a woman, then you don't even have to ask the questions, leave immediately.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter posted on 2014-11-15 23:41:56 ET Reply Trace Private Reply Edit

#3. To: redleghunter (#2)

I concur with all of your litmus test (but conditionally on one):

Ask the pastor if he supports church members divorcing and remarriage and remaining in the assembly.

Sometimes "Condition: RED" can't be helped. Condoning divorce is one thing; however what's done is done in some cases. I don't know if shunning in that case makes sense to me for a hungry, repentant believer.

Liberator posted on 2014-11-16 10:23:03 ET Reply Trace Private Reply Edit

#4. To: CZ82 (#0)

In our life’s entire journey it is important to seek the Lord and His will for our lives. “If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.” James 1:5

Like it.

Liberator posted on 2014-11-16 10:24:13 ET Reply Trace Private Reply Edit

#5. To: A K A Stone (#1)

If you don't believe Genesis. Then what exactly would be the reason for Jesus? To redeem us from what? There is an answer to your question, and I am willing to answer it for you.

There is a completely different way to read the Bible.

The traditional way, which came out of traditional Catholic and Orthodox thinking, itself came out of traditional Jewish thinking. After all, all 12 Apostles and Paul were Middle Eastern Jews, from the land of Israel and its environs, by birth and culture. Jesus was too, of course, but he is different because of who his Father was and the special knowledge and power he had.

The traditional way of seeing it saw the Christian Church as the continuation of the Jewish revelation. While this is certainly true, the key features of it where that the Apostles and the traditionalists did not simply valorize the revelations of God, but also the particular historical and cultural achievements of Israel. They understood God's plan of salvation in a certain way.

To follow the traditional thread of thinking, God made man, man fell, and this fall, this original sin, left an imprint of sin on the character of each man. Because of this sin, man could not attain heaven after death. In order to save man, eventually, God chose one people, the Hebrews, and gave them The Law. The Jews waxed and waned, and did not follow the law perfectly. So God sent Jesus to bring the whole world into salvation. Under the Jewish law, the blood of animals released sin, but could not completely release a man of all of his sins. But with Jesus, baptism wipes away original sin, and the blood of Christ's sacrifice is the final, perfect lamb of the Jewish sacrificial cycle, which takes away the sins of the whole world (and not just the Jews). So, through adoption, the world are all Messianic Jews. The reason for Jesus, under the traditional view, is to redeem us from our sins as laid out under the Jewish law. The assumption is that a perfect adherence to the Jewish Law would have led to salvation, but nobody could do it, and so Jesus was sent to do it for everybody.

That's the traditional view, and that view depends on the existence of Adam and Eve as literally described in order to establish the Original Sin that needs to be wiped away.

That's the traditional read and understanding. It's what Paul understood he was doing.

There is a very different way to read the same text.

I was looking for something else but came across this.

According to what you wrote here and what you said today about the Bible being a lie or however you phrased it.

So according to this you are not even a Catholic.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-03-22   16:59:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#210. To: A K A Stone (#208)

You don’t understand what the word “if” means, do you? You are not able to process a hypothetical argument and understand its purpose, are you? As far as me not being a Catholic, you’re in no position to judge such a thing. You don’t understand Catholicism, and you’re unable to step out of your rigid literalism to understand anything from a different perspective. All you do is be a blundering battering ram, beating at the same point over and over, and you don’t see or comprehend when it has been addressed. You and VxH just keep right in hammering away at some point that’s already been asked and answered a dozen times, like a woodpecker smashing it’s beak again and again on an iron door

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-03-22   21:52:14 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#211. To: Vicomte13 (#210)

You don't answer things 100 times. You Dodge and run.

Why is it not hypocritical to say God doesn't heal nada doesn't happen. Then you say he heals you.

Oh now I'm being mean again asking a question you will not answer.

Yes I am in a position to say you are not a Catholic. Because you said you don't have what you refer to as the traditional view. You said that is the Catholic view.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-03-22   23:25:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#213. To: A K A Stone (#211)

Yes I am in a position to say you are not a Catholic. Because you said you don't have what you refer to as the traditional view. You said that is the Catholic view.

You're not. You're just petty and bitchy. I never run, I get tired of saying the same things and being misunderstood - my English is pretty plain.

And I get tired of your and VxH's efforts at bad lawyering.

You don't know what Catholicism is or what we believe. You throw a lot of shit out there which is what your little brand of Protestantism believes that Catholics believe, but what you are saying is ignorant nonsense, and you're unteachable. You're CONVICTED in your ignorant nonsense, and always nasty about it, in post after post.

Catholicism is not like some little pastpr-centered Church, where everybody has to believe the same narrow set of doctrines. Catholicism spans the world, and has lots of different local practices, focuses, saints feast days, different things emphasized.

The real core beliefs are contained in the Creed, but you won't listen to that. You burrow into some doily design on the Pope's hat on some day and really think that this is of significance to Catholics. The Pope is nothing like your local pastor. You hang on your guy's every word, and if he puts you out of his church, you're out. You pay his salary.

To Catholics, the Pope is a very distant administrative leader who tries to set a tone. Some Catholics probably do focus in on the Pope and what he has to say. To most Catholics, the Pope is as distant as the Secretary General of the UN.

It is not for YOU to say who is a Catholic and who is not, or who is a good Catholic and who is a bad. It's not really for ANYBODY to say that. The Catholic Church is a much broader thing than the narrow, everybody-watching- everybody-else doctrinally focused Protestant church you are used to.

A key difference: I am completely uninterested in your church and its doctrines. I don't care what you believe, how you practice your faith, what you do. It doesn't offend me that you do it differently, believe differently, think different things about the Bible or Jesus or God. It is truly irrelevant to me and my life. There is literally nothing more useless in this world than another man's religious beliefs and doctrines.

The reverse is not true. You people are obsessed with what we Catholics are doing. It's all you talk about when you attack me. You have weird, warped ideas about it all, and you present a very mangled view of Catholicism when you speak about it, but speak about it you do, constantly.

If it's not Mary, it's about some doily on one of the Pope's hats. You care a whole lot more about what the Pope happens to be wearing on some day than any Catholic in the world besides his personal valet. It's evidence of a deeply superstitious mindset on your part. "Look! The Pope is wearing a symbol that looks vaguely like some symbol from ancient Somewhere-istan - clearly this is demonic and paganism creeping in. It's just such utter nonsense, like a Jack Chick cartoon. But there you people are, out there obsessing about strange little irrelevant details. You're straining out the gnat and swallowing the camel.

And you're just so very nasty about it, all the time. Your religion is hateful and repugnant, and you act like illiterates. Your brains don't seem to be able to follow obvious logic such as "God saves somebody's like a miracle today...but someday God's going to take that person's life." You actually have to have everything spelled out for you, letter by letter, and you pretend that the Bible does that, but it doesn't.

This causes you to go berserk and attack other people who have not lapsed into the strange errors you have.

You and VxH are really peas in a pod in this regard. Talking to either of you is like talking to a mule.

I don't run. I just realize that it's futile. It's like arguing with drunks. You could stop it. You could just ask questions and hear the answers, and if there's something you don't understand, ask for clarification.

You never do that, though. You ask, I answer, and you viciously attack as you act your next question. Essentially, to converse with you or VxH about religion is to have to accept getting spat upon every single time you respond. In other words, you talk like 13 year old boys.

I don't ask you about your religion, because I really don't care what you believe, what you practice, what you do. I only attack yours BECAUSE you attack mine and me so continuously.

Why do you do this? It's a giant waste of time. If you're attempting to evangelize, you're considerably less effective than the Jehovah's Witnesses. They at least try to be nice when they knock on the door. You and VxH make no pretense of being nice.

It's a waste of time to try to convert me anyway. The seal of baptism was put on me as a baby, and it was under that seal that God saved my life, and speaks to me. I'm always going to dance with the one who brung me. I don't mind talking about religion, and I'm not a scold. But when folks like you and VxH presume to scold me all the time, and say mean things to me personally and then say things that are just ignorant, my patience wears out.

You're blind to how very obnoxious you are. Why don't you and VxH form a new denomination. You can call yourself the "JERKS FOR JESUS".

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-03-23   9:34:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#216. To: Vicomte13 (#213)

You don't believe the Bible so you will never know the truth.

Lizards and bugs lol. Frickin idiot.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-03-23   10:17:32 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#218. To: A K A Stone (#216)

You don't believe the Bible so you will never know the truth.

Lizards and bugs lol. Frickin idiot.

And here you deny a fact that I experienced directly - and you expect me to follow you?

It was a baby mouse and an anole lizard.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-03-23   14:51:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 218.

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End Trace Mode for Comment # 218.

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