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Title: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
Source:
New York Times
URL Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/19/u ... nted=all&_r=0&pagewanted=print
Published: Sep 18, 2012
Author: LAURIE GOODSTEIN
Post Date: 2012-09-18 13:34:21 by Brian S
Keywords: None
Views: 20755
Comments: 45
CAMBRIDGE, Mass. — A historian of early Christianity at Harvard Divinity School has identified a scrap of papyrus that she says was written in Coptic in the fourth century and contains a phrase never seen in any piece of Scripture: “Jesus said to them, ‘My wife …'” The faded papyrus fragment is smaller than a business card, with eight lines on one side, in black ink legible under a magnifying glass. Just below the line about Jesus having a wife, the papyrus includes a second provocative clause that purportedly says, “she will be able to be my disciple.” The finding is being made public in Rome on Tuesday at an international meeting of Coptic scholars by the historian Karen L. King, who has published several books about new Gospel discoveries and is the first woman to hold the nation’s oldest endowed chair, the Hollis professor of divinity. The provenance of the papyrus fragment is a mystery, and its owner has asked to remain anonymous. Until Tuesday, Dr. King had shown the fragment to only a small circle of experts in papyrology and Coptic linguistics, who concluded that it is most likely not a forgery. But she and her collaborators say they are eager for more scholars to weigh in and perhaps upend their conclusions. Even with many questions unsettled, the discovery could reignite the debate over whether Jesus was married, whether Mary Magdalene was his wife and whether he had a female disciple. These debates date to the early centuries of Christianity, scholars say. But they are relevant today, when global Christianity is roiling over the place of women in ministry and the boundaries of marriage. The discussion is particularly animated in the Roman Catholic Church, where despite calls for change, the Vatican has reiterated the teaching that the priesthood cannot be opened to women and married men because of the model set by Jesus. Dr. King gave an interview and showed the papyrus fragment, encased in glass, to reporters from The New York Times, The Boston Globe and Harvard Magazine in her garret office in the tower at Harvard Divinity School last Thursday. She left the next day for Rome to deliver her paper on the find on Tuesday at the International Congress of Coptic Studies. She repeatedly cautioned that this fragment should not be taken as proof that Jesus, the historical person, was actually married. The text was probably written centuries after Jesus lived, and all other early, historically reliable Christian literature is silent on the question, she said. But the discovery is exciting, Dr. King said, because it is the first known statement from antiquity that refers to Jesus speaking of a wife. It provides further evidence that there was an active discussion among early Christians about whether Jesus was celibate or married, and which path his followers should choose. “This fragment suggests that some early Christians had a tradition that Jesus was married,” Dr. King said. “There was, we already know, a controversy in the second century over whether Jesus was married, caught up with a debate about whether Christians should marry and have sex.” Dr. King first learned about what she calls “The Gospel of Jesus’s Wife” when she received an e-mail in 2010 from a private collector who asked her to translate it. Dr. King, 58, specializes in Coptic literature, and has written books on the Gospel of Judas, the Gospel of Mary of Magdala, Gnosticism and women in antiquity. The owner, who has a collection of Greek, Coptic and Arabic papyri, is not willing to be identified by name, nationality or location, because, Dr. King said, “He doesn’t want to be hounded by people who want to buy this.” When, where or how the fragment was discovered is unknown. The collector acquired it in a batch of papyri in 1997 from the previous owner, a German. It came with a handwritten note in German that names a professor of Egyptology in Berlin, now deceased, and cited him calling the fragment “the sole example” of a text in which Jesus claims a wife. The owner carried the fragment to the Divinity School in December 2011 and left it with Dr. King. She said she was initially suspicious, but it looked promising enough to explore. Three months later, she carried the fragment in her red handbag to New York to show it to two colleagues, both papyrologists: Roger Bagnall, director of the Institute for the Study of the Ancient World, at New York University, and AnneMarie Luijendijk, an associate professor of religion at Princeton University. They examined the scrap under sharp magnification. It was very small — only 4 by 8 centimeters. The lettering was splotchy and uneven, the hand of an amateur, but not unusual for the time period, when many Christians were poor and persecuted. It was written in Coptic, an Egyptian language that uses Greek characters — and more precisely, in Sahidic Coptic, a dialect from southern Egypt, Dr. Luijendijk said in an interview. What convinced them it was probably genuine was the fading of the ink on the papyrus fibers, and traces of ink adhered to the bent fibers at the torn edges. The back side is so faint that only five words are visible, one only partly: “my moth[er],” “three,” “forth which.” “It would be impossible to forge,” said Dr. Luijendijk, who contributed to Dr. King’s paper. Dr. Bagnall reasoned that a forger would have had to be expert in Coptic grammar, handwriting and ideas. Most forgeries he has seen were nothing more than gibberish. And if it were a forgery intended to cause a sensation or make someone rich, why would it have lain in obscurity for so many years? “It’s hard to construct a scenario that is at all plausible in which somebody fakes something like this. The world is not really crawling with crooked papyrologists,” Dr. Bagnall said. The piece is torn into a rough rectangle, so that the document is missing its adjoining text on the left, right, top and bottom — most likely the work of a dealer who divided up a larger piece to maximize his profit, Dr. Bagnall said. Much of the context, therefore, is missing. But Dr. King was struck by phrases in the fragment like “My mother gave to me life,” and “Mary is worthy of it,” which resemble snippets from the Gospels of Thomas and Mary. Experts believe those were written in the late second century and translated into Coptic. She surmises that this fragment is also copied from a second century Greek text. The meaning of the words, “my wife,” is beyond question, Dr. King said. “These words can mean nothing else.” The text beyond “my wife” is cut off. Dr. King did not have the ink dated using carbon testing. She said it would require scraping off too much, destroying the relic. She still plans to have the ink tested by spectroscopy, which could roughly determine its age by its chemical composition. Dr. King submitted her paper to The Harvard Theological Review, which asked three scholars to review it. Two questioned its authenticity, but they had seen only low-resolution photographs of the fragment and were unaware that expert papyrologists had seen the actual item and judged it to be genuine, Dr. King said. One of the two questioned the grammar, translation and interpretation. Ariel Shisha-Halevy, an eminent Coptic linguist at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, was consulted, and responded in an e-mail in September, “I believe — on the basis of language and grammar — the text is authentic.” Major doubts allayed, The Review plans to publish Dr. King’s article in its January issue. The owner has offered to donate the papyrus to Harvard if the university buys a “substantial part of his collection,” Dr. King said, which Harvard is considering. She said she will “push him to come forward,” in part to avoid stoking conspiracy theories. The notion that Jesus had a wife was the central conceit of the best seller and movie “The Da Vinci Code.” But Dr. King said she wants nothing to do with the Code or its author: “At least, don’t say this proves Dan Brown was right.”
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#1. To: Brian S (#0)
Oh, NOW you've done it... Stone's head is gonna' explode, over this... He knows ALL the scriptures, and I'm sure this has NO place within his religious <<<< *eyeball roll >>>>
Never let it be said that Satan ever gives up and the beliefs of the heretical Ghnostics don't still exist. Yes, Jesus has a wife. That wife is the Christian Church. God does hate divorce for a good reason.
Why should a Christian's head explode? We don't worry about the efforts of Non- Christians to lessen the goodness and truth of God. That has been tried by Satan and his deciples for many years now. And, yet, Christianity just goes on ticking, like a good Timex watch. Quality does play a vital part in watches and belief in God.
Wow... I must admit, I never expected the gyrations to be so absurd right out of the gate... Thanks for making me laugh.
Eric, you may laugh as long and loud as you wish. There is a small problem with your belief set. I want to refer you to Second Peter in the New Testament. 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, You have a problem, not me. I can only feel pity for you and others like you. Eternity is a long time and it is only through Christ that you can be reunited with God the Father. You don't want to spend that eternity in the wrong place. I strongly recommend to you that you go to Christ before it is too late for you.
There were no Christian churches during Christ's lifetime.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
For your edification, the true Church consists of the believers, not a physical building on Earth. There was certainly a Christian Church during Christ's lifetime on Earth.
I would think a man endowed with the power of God would be plenty capable of having a wife AND being married to his believers.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
For men of his land and status, it was very unlikely they would not be married. Men have been exceedingly preoccupied with keeping women out of the power and influence loop in Christianity as long as the Christian thing has been going on. It's one thing I find very disturbing about that faith.
Brian you do realize this is a gnostic find? Since it is gnostic there should be no surprise their documents would make this claim. Which by the way is heresy.
"Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.) Psalm 139:16
Proof that stupid queer progressives existed almost 2000 years ago. The fags have to rely on recruitment through Romney gay and lesbian youth commissions, etc., but the Christians have enough sense to screw someone of the opposite sex. For this reason, there will always be a lot more Christians, than there are homos. Are the Muslims going to riot again, because the professor revealed that Jesus wasn't a gay pedophile, like Muhammad? Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
You have no idea what I believe, so your conclusions are merely a projection of your own biases. Same as my first observation. Nice try. Next? What pomposity! LOL. Same as my first observation. Next? Noted. TRUE faith does not come from organized religion. TRUE faith is not something you wear on your sleeve, so that you can show it off to others. TRUE faith is a personal, private matter. You push your religiosity for purely selfish reasons. Preach to those who ask for your assistance, and you will be a good Christian. Preach to those who have no want or need for your assistance, and your efforts will show you to be a hypocrite of all that you pretend to stand for.
Eric, I have read enough of your thoughts to know that you are blowing smoke. You say that religion is personal and shouldn't be "preached" to anyone who doesn't ask for it. Can you explain this to me? Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.Amen. I don't see in the scripture above that God commands His disciples to preach only to those who ask them. Could you point it out to me? You say that true faith doesn't come from organized religion? Who said that it did, not me. You say that true faith isn't worn on a Christian's sleeve. Again, what was God's command to His disciples? Is following the commands of God the same thing as wearing religion on the sleeve to you? Surely not. You say I'm pushing my religion for selfish reasons? What brand of crystal ball are you using or is that a programmed response? "Preach to those who ask for your assistance, and you will be a good Christian." Could you point out a verse in the Scriptures that support your statement or is that your opinion and wish only? "Preach to those who have no want or need for your assistance, and your efforts will show you to be a hypocrite of all that you pretend to stand for." That statement is so far out in left field that it went right over the fence. Now, Christians are hypocrites if we do what God commands us in your opinion. Right.
Men have been exceedingly preoccupied with keeping women out of the power and influence loop in Christianity as long as the Christian thing has been going on. It's one thing I find very disturbing about that faith. I guess God and Jesus were happy with women remaining less than second class citizens.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
Christ was endowed with the power of God? mininggold, He was and is God. How did capability enter into the conversation? Why do you think that Christ could not be a bachelor for the thirty-three or so years of his life? Many men have been bachelors for their entire life. Why are you so determined to give Christ a wife for His life on Earth?
Oh... my, it's the heretic card. Now you need to lead a crusade(jihad) against Brian for his own good..
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
If God did relegate women to the position of less than second rate citizens, He has given them the right to live in eternity with Him. People are quick to criticize God. Men seem to think they can criticize God who made them and all of Creation. Yeah, that goes over real good. That is like the field mouse standing on its back legs and squeeking at God to show what a mouse he is.
Because he was a Jew for one thing. So, why do you think he couldn't have been married?
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
Heretic card? Do you believe that Christians are now Muslims? Sorry, doesn't work that way.
Yep...Christians and Muslims are first cousins.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
I suspect that would have been mentioned in the Holy Bible if he had been. He might have been a lot of things, but since the Scriptures don't address the issue, it isn't very smart to assume things (assume=ass-u-me)
You are either not very smart or you have a great deal of pentup anger against Christians. However, that is for you to work out.
The Bible was written and edited by imperfect men.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
It was written by men through the influence of the Holy Spirit. I will trust in God to make sure that His words are given to men in the way He wished.
Stop projecting your inadequacies on others. It makes you look like an amateur psychologist. All you have to do is find a source to debunk my statement. But I will save you the effort, I was wrong, Christians and Muslims are siblings.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
I don't understand your panic over armed conflict. No one is suggesting that. If you look at the true definition of heresy, you will see the gnostics clearly admit they are at odds with orthodox Christianity.
"Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.) Psalm 139:16
If you want to know the difference between Muslims and Christians, read their Bibles and compare them. This doesn't take a genius level person, it does take what you seem to have missed, study of the literature. Look at their actions today. Have you read about Christians blowing up things, chopping off heads, etc?
The four hundred scribes under the employment of King James all were under the influence of the Holy Spirit? There was more than a few knock dragged fights over some of the minutist stuff. Never trust any religious undertaking ordained by a king as they tend to have an agenda.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
If Jesus was historical then he would have had to been married. He was called Rabbi often in writing about him, and in his time only married men could become a rabbi.
Ok, you don't like the King James Version. There are other versions printed. I also believe that God has control over men. Men end up doing what God wants, not vice versa.
Funny, I have heard of lots Christians trying to conquer others by the sword to obtain sources of energy, transportation routes, land and various other sources of economic gain.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
I also believe that God has control over men. Men end up doing what God wants, not vice versa. Then there was no reason for Jesus to ever walk this earth.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
Rabbis also were required to take Rabbinical training. Did Jesus do that? Names denoting a place of honor are common today even for those who don't meet the right specifications. Today, we give an honorary degree from prestigious universities to those who are being honored or knighthood to people like actors.
Yeah, so you go right ahead and tell God His plans don't seem right to you. I'm sure He will be happy to change His plans for you. If I seem flippant to you in some of my responses, it is because I recognize just how over-the-edge they are.
You will have to get a bit more specific about these "Christians" before I can say anything.
You exhibit that most ugly of situations... you don't know how much you don't know. Your problem, not mine. No. The meaning is clear. If you choose to play stupid, fine. Do not expect me to participate in your game. Oh, you're a disciple now? Wow... Pomposity, indeed!!! LMAO!!!!!!! You're quite the OFFICIOUS prick, aren't you? Thanks, Don... you've proven my point far more effectively than I could have... It's really simple: you're incredibly vain and conceited in your religious fervor, and your certitude so unshakeable, that you don't see what how blind you truly are... So here's just one question, that will (possibly) open your eyes: Where is the proof that your religion is the "true" faith, as compared to Shinto, Sikhism, Taoism, the Islamic Faith, Buddhism or Judaism? If you're talking how long they've been around, Buddhism was around ~600 BC, while Hinduism has been around since ~5000 BC. In fact, there's religious evidence dating back 70,000 years ago. So Christianity is niether new nor original. How about by number of adherents to a particular religion? Democracy in action, all that rot??? Well, there are ~3.4 Billion of the Islamic Faith, Hinduism has 1.1 Billion, 1 Billion that are not religious... and ~1 Billion Christians... so that's not gonna' help you. Maybe your "good book" saying your faith is the one "true" faith? Well, they all say that... so that's not gonna' help you. Saying "you can't prove it's not the correct version" is not proof; it's a logical fallacy. So again, where's the proof that anything you say is correct? When you have an honest answer, come back and let me know...
You don't seem to know what a disciple is. Blowing smoke is becoming more obvious. What is a Disciple? The word disciple literally translated from the Greek means to be "a learner." Dictionary.com defines disciple as: a. A person who is a pupil or adherent of the doctrines of another. b. One who embraces and assists in spreading the teaching of another. c. Any follower of another person. Read more: http://www.christian-discipleship.com/christian- discipleship/chrisitan-discipleship-definition.html#ixzz26rcp0ts8 "You exhibit that most ugly of situations... you don't know how much you don't know. Your problem, not mine." Eric, this is your chance. Who was Christ then and now? Is He the one way to God the Father or do we just have to be good to earn salvation? Trying to establish boundaries to frame your argument doesn't negate just what faith is and does for the believer. Next, you will be saying that the first man swung down from the trees and built the first altar to worship the sun which proves that Christianity is an artificial religion and sun worship is just as valid as any other religion. Numbers don't prove anything except that people can count. Your religious evidence goes back 70,000 years? Wow. I am impressed, not. If you can show pictures showing worshippers bowing down to whatever 70,000 years ago, produce it. Don't forget to have the pics date stamped. If you were a Christian, you wouldn't have brought in other religions trying to show those religions are as valid as Christianity. So, we have other evidence of blowing smoke. Just what is faith to you? Is it something that proves a fact that science cannot prove or must science prove that God and faith is real? Imagine a fisherman going to a lake for the first time not knowing whether or not there are fish there, He casts out his line and just waits, day after day and there isn't even a bite. Another fisherman new to the lake and not knowing about fish there throws out his line and waits for a period of time until finally a fish bites on the line and he hauls in a whopper. The first fisherman went away without even a bite and he still has faith that there are fishthere because others catch fish and show them to him. The first man has faith, but the second man has evidence because he caught a fish. The second man doesn't have faith, he has evidence. This story is an analogy. Can you relate it to the verse which tells us, Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. "Saying "you can't prove it's not the correct version" is not proof; it's a logical fallacy." Where did I say it isn't the correct version? I believe you said we can't depend on it because fallible men penned it. I voiced my response saying the Holy Spirit inspired the writers. You might be interested in the following, Is the original Bible still in existence? http://www.gotquestions.org/original-Bible.html BTW, trying to change a strawman argument into a logical fallacy is not a good means to argue your side. I had logic in college too.
That's the whole point, she can't, the best she can do is think the evil men today waging war across this world are christians, doing the work of the Lord, they are not. Her ignorance as to who is to blame for all the suffering in the wrold is breathtaking. Her heart is as black as theirs when she actually believes honest, God fearing people are torturing and beheading innocent people today,, a lie she takes pleasure in spreading. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for her to post documented proof on anything she claims about Christians, her eyes are blind to the obvious savage acts unfolding before her, committed by Islamic barbarians in the name of allah (may he choke on a BLT). JMHO!
"A friend will calm you down when you are angry, but a best friend will skip beside you with a baseball bat singing, "someone's gonna get it"
Hey... Psst.... A straw man argument IS a logical fallacy, of the informal type... LOL. Is it too late for you to get your money back from your "logic" class in college, because you certainly don't know nearly what you think you know... But I chose to post this quote first, as I find your hypocrisy absolutely delightful in entertainment value... Now, you're preaching to me about not using a straw man argument or logical fallacies...? Ignoratio elinchi, Don? The logical fallacy more commonly called a "red herring." Jesus spoke Greek? Really? LOL. He spoke Aramaic. And since the Bible has been translated a bunch of times, the original word Jesus did (or did not) use is lost, so this line of justification is completely bogus. The fact is, you personally compare yourself to Jesus' disciples, which demonstrates a level of conceit that is utterly breathtaking. Logical fallacy: Appeal to authority. FAIL. The context as you laid it out, was very clear, and proves my point- you're an officious, self- righteous prick. And by using logical fallacies, you're a hypocrite, as well. Logical fallacy: reification or existential, depending on how you look at it. Without establishing appropriate dialectical boundaries, there is no meaningful dialogue. One of those boundaries, is that faith is a personal and private matter. Since you refuse the polite hint, I'll be more blunt: My opinions on religion, and what faith is, are none of your business. Reductio ad absurdum, another logical red-herring fallacy. You're not looking good. Argument from fallacy. I could go on with the rest of your statements... but frankly, you're just not worth the effort. It suffices to say that your entire argument is built around logical fallacies and misdirection, because you haven't a single piece of data to substantiate your zealoutry. I asked you only one question, which of course is impossible to answer... I asked to see how desperate you would get to divert attention. Congratulations, you win the prize as being a true religious fanatic. Bye, bozo.
Now, you and I are on an informal basis? Somehow, I can't feel that we are on a good enough basis for that, but if you insist. If Jesus' disciples were not followers (i.e. disciples) of Christ, what were they? Chicken soup? You are spinning your tires on a slippery surface on this one. The word "disciple" was properly used. You said that the proper meaning or word couldn't be determined and yet you say my use was wrong. Now you are spinning off the road. You say that your opinions on faith is personal. Faith is a personal thing; however, the Holy Scriptures don't tell Christians to "mind their own business" or not to spread the gospel. The Holy Scriptures say the opposite actions are correct. Do I listen to you or do I listen to what God commands? That is a no- brainer. Since there were Founding Fathers who were wise enough in their beliefs about God, we have the First Amendment, i.e. freedom of religion. And that religion tells me not to roll over and play dead when the subject of God comes up. Your question is impossible for you to answer. It is very possible for Christians. You look at the world from your own perceptions so what is impossible to you pertains only to you. If you did have abiding faith in Christ, you would be able to answer it yourself. So, since you commented on my college experience, perhaps, you wouldn't mind telling me what your college experience is?
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestA Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
zealoutry belief system! 
"I am relying on my personal experience with Morons, which have been universally positive." -jwpegler
#2. To: Brian S (#0)
#3. To: Capitalist Eric (#1)
#4. To: Don (#2)
Yes, Jesus has a wife. That wife is the Christian Church.
"I am relying on my personal experience with Morons, which have been universally positive." -jwpegler
#5. To: Capitalist Eric (#4)
#6. To: Don (#2)
Yes, Jesus has a wife. That wife is the Christian Church.
#7. To: mininggold (#6)
#8. To: Don (#7)
For your edification, the true Church consists of the believers, not a physical building on Earth. There was certainly a Christian Church during Christ's lifetime on Earth.
#9. To: mininggold (#8)
#10. To: Brian S, GarySpFc (#0)
#11. To: Brian S, *Arab Spring Jihad* (#0)
a debate about whether Christians should marry and have sex
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#12. To: Don (#5)
There is a small problem with your belief set.
You have a problem, not me.
I can only feel pity for you and others like you.
I strongly recommend to you that you go to Christ before it is too late for you.
"I am relying on my personal experience with Morons, which have been universally positive." -jwpegler
#13. To: Capitalist Eric (#12)
#14. To: Ferret Mike (#9)
For men of his land and status, it was very unlikely they would not be married.
#15. To: mininggold (#8)
#16. To: redleghunter (#10)
Brian you do realize this is a gnostic find? Since it is gnostic there should be no surprise their documents would make this claim. Which by the way is heresy.
#17. To: mininggold (#14)
#18. To: Don (#15)
Why do you think that Christ could not be a bachelor for the thirty-three or so years of his life? Many men have been bachelors for their entire life. Why are you so determined to give Christ a wife for His life on Earth?
#19. To: mininggold (#16)
Oh... my, it's the heretic card. Now you need to lead a crusade(jihad) against Brian for his own good..
#20. To: Don (#19)
Heretic card? Do you believe that Christians are now Muslims? Sorry, doesn't work that way.
#21. To: mininggold (#18)
#22. To: mininggold (#20)
Yep...Christians and Muslims are first cousins.
#23. To: Don (#21)
I suspect that would have been mentioned in the Holy Bible if he had been. He might have been a lot of things, but since the Scriptures don't address the issue, it isn't very smart to assume things (assume=ass-u-me)
#24. To: mininggold (#23)
#25. To: Don (#22)
You are either not very smart or you have a great deal of pentup anger against Christians. However, that is for you to work out.
#26. To: mininggold (#16)
Oh... my, it's the heretic card. Now you need to lead a crusade(jihad) against Brian for his own good..
#27. To: mininggold (#25)
(Edited)
#28. To: Don (#24)
It was written by men through the influence of the Holy Spirit. I will trust in God to make sure that His words are given to men in the way He wished.
#29. To: Don (#24)
#30. To: mininggold (#28)
#31. To: Don (#27)
Look at their actions today. Have you read about Christians blowing up things, chopping off heads, etc?
#32. To: Don (#30)
Ok, you don't like the King James Version. There are other versions printed.
#33. To: Ferret Mike (#29)
#34. To: mininggold (#32)
Then there was no reason for Jesus to ever walk this earth.
#35. To: mininggold (#31)
#36. To: Don (#13)
Eric, I have read enough of your thoughts to know that you are blowing smoke.
You say that religion is personal and shouldn't be "preached" to anyone who doesn't ask for it. Can you explain this to me?
don't see in the scripture above that God commands His disciples to preach only to those who ask them.
"I am relying on my personal experience with Morons, which have been universally positive." -jwpegler
#37. To: Capitalist Eric (#36)
#38. To: Don, mininggold (#35)
"You will have to get a bit more specific about these "Christians" before I can say anything."
#39. To: Don (#37)
(Edited)
BTW, trying to change a strawman argument into a logical fallacy is not a good means to argue your side. I had logic in college too.
What is a Disciple? The word disciple literally translated from the Greek means to be "a learner."
Dictionary.com defines disciple as...
Eric, this is your chance. Who was Christ then and now? Is He the one way to God the Father or do we just have to be good to earn salvation?
Trying to establish boundaries to frame your argument doesn't negate just what faith is and does for the believer.
Next, you will be saying that the first man swung down from the trees and built the first altar to worship the sun which proves that Christianity is an artificial religion and sun worship is just as valid as any other religion.
Numbers don't prove anything except that people can count. Your religious evidence goes back 70,000 years? Wow. I am impressed, not.
"I am relying on my personal experience with Morons, which have been universally positive." -jwpegler
#40. To: Capitalist Eric (#39)
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