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Title: We’re All Branch Davidians Now (19th anniversary of Waco Masacre)
Source:
LewRockwell.com
URL Source: http://lewrockwell.com/gregory/gregory246.html
Published: Apr 19, 2012
Author: Anthony Gregory
Post Date: 2012-04-19 14:46:13 by Hondo68
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Keywords: the state a killing machine, planned by G. H.W. Bush ATF, carried out by Clintonistas
Views: 38123
Comments: 51
Nineteen years ago, just outside Waco, Texas, the FBI demonstrated once again that the state at its core is a killing machine. Monarchy, democracy, or republic – any government as conventionally defined is a legal monopoly on violence. The state is always inclined toward oppression, division, conquest, and bloodshed, because these are its tools of trade. Matters are no different here. The myth of a free America was always seen with bitter irony by those not blessed by such freedom. In the founding generation, as half a million labored in slavery, many who fought in the Revolution genuinely believed in liberty, but for the ruling elite who chided them on, liberty was hardly more than a slogan. This has always been true of our political leaders. The Father of the Country was a centralizing slaveowner. Old Hickory talked up freedom as he threatened war on South Carolina and forced the Cherokee to flee from their ancestral land on a barbarously murderous walk of shame. The Great Emancipator turned America into a military dictatorship and abolished the revolutionary right of secession. Wilson’s New Freedom was cover for a Prussianized war machine generating revenue for his profiteering buddies on Wall Street. Roosevelt’s Four Freedoms failed to include the freedom not to be drafted or interned in a concentration camp. Ronald Reagan threw the word freedom around as he trained Latin American torturers and raped the Bill of Rights in the name of fighting drugs. The United States has never lived up to its rhetoric. But the events from February 28 through April 19, 1993, still stand out in my mind as a watershed. It was the post-Cold War regime’s coming of age, signifying a major event in cultural history. Everything about Operation Showtime was brazen, and it seemed like an overreach even by some of the government’s establishment defenders. Yet today Washington’s fixers must look back at these embarrassments as a hiccup at most, as growing pains on the way to establishing a militarized law-and-order apparatus of nearly unlimited power. That this stepping stone was reached on the eve of the Internet era, right before the old media began its decline in influence, was most convenient for the police state and its solidification. The propaganda against the Branch Davidians was perfectly tuned to appeal to the masses, each adjustment in frequency coming just in time to keep the people listening. Religious fanatics with a meth lab, armed and dangerous, abusing their children – few wanted to stand up for these people during the siege. Even fewer wished to identify the Davidian response to the original raid for what it was: self-defense. The Davidians fired on the ATF so long as the ATF fired upon the Davidians, and when the ATF ran out of ammo, the Davidians held their fire. The government’s officials were the aggressors. What followed were fifty-one days of psychological warfare designed to isolate the Davidians – from water, from food, from the press, their lawyers and family – and break them down like any wartime enemy. So preposterous was the standoff that eventually even the mainstream media began asking questions. A New York Times exposé on March 28 raised all sorts of troubling issues, which only multiplied in the days that followed. Federal agents said that supervisors had known they had lost the element of surprise, but decided to go ahead with the February 28 raid anyway. Agents were reportedly unhappy with their equipment and communication methods. The poor planning and lack of contingency options were exposed. No medical assistance had been prepared for the ATF's raid. Reports emerged that some of the ATF agents had injured or killed one another in friendly fire. There were hints that other agents might have even been captured and let go by the Davidians. The ATF intelligence chief stopped holding press conferences as the heat continued to mount. On April 19, tired from the boredom and bad publicity of just standing around outside the "compound," the FBI drove a tank through the Davidians’ home, pumped it full of CS gas, launched incendiary devices at the building, and watched it go up in flames. As soon as the stakes became higher, as soon as questioning the feds meant implying they had committed mass murder, the media stopped barking defiantly and jumped back to the government’s lap. The Democrats, home of America’s center-left, oversaw this exceedingly important event in the development of the police state. Unsurprisingly, every respectable liberal defended the government and believed Clinton’s people when they demonized the Davidians. The entire respectable right went along with the bloodletting, too. Why wouldn’t they? It was a raid planned by George H.W. Bush’s ATF, carried out by the Clintonistas, and ultimately rubberstamped by the Republicans in Congress, and so everyone could get behind it. Some libertarians wavered, including Randians and other proponents of violent national secularism, and much of the radical left went limp too. The Oklahoma City incident two years later was spun by the media as an example of anti-government extremism somehow being a greater threat than the government itself. It became increasingly un-PC to bring up what had happened in Texas. The election of Dubya and 9/11 washed away the paranoid anti-statist instincts of much of the Clinton-hating right. Waco, from the raid’s planning to the cover-up and show trials, taught the U.S. government what it could get away with – which is to say, practically anything. It can gas innocent children with internationally banned chemicals. It can hoist a federal flag atop a torched American home, claim victory, and see its public image improve. It can throw grenades at people trying to escape a building and claim they are being held hostage. In the name of protecting these "hostages" and children, it can watch as they burn and keep the firefighters away. And the massacre will be tolerated, even applauded. Dozens of people of color died at the hands of the federal government, and the official Civil Rights movement hardly spoke up. Dozens of people were targeted for their religion, and it hardly bothered many of the very conservatives who allege a war on religion waged by DC. The largest federal-military killing of civilians on U.S. soil in a century has now become one more notch on the progressive left’s timeline of major events in anti-government extremism, as opposed to a principal example of government extremism where a tiny minority community was virtually exterminated. Indeed, in 1993 the Davidians were only the most conspicuous and recent example in America’s long history of the demonized Other, the marginalized underclass in the official hierarchy of human worth. Slaves, Indians, Mexicans, Southerners, Catholics, Irish and German-Americans, Chinese immigrants, Japanese-Americans, Mormons, homosexuals, alleged Communists, rightwing extremists, and many others have played the role, often for their imagined association with the wartime enemy, but always for being out of step with the government’s accepted definition of legitimate humanity. Many look back at incidents of intolerance with disbelief that Americans could be so blind to oppression. Yet when the topic of Waco comes up, they will think only of those nutcases who, according to the government and media, attacked federal agents and then killed themselves. In the nineteen years since Waco, we have seen the police state explode in every direction and now we are all ensnared. Some groups are always more threatened than others, but no one is truly safe. The prisons have swollen to the largest detention system since Stalin’s gulags. The police conduct three thousand SWAT raids a month. The war on terror has made a total mockery of what remained of the Fourth Amendment. Torture has lost its taboo. So has indefinite detention. The feds irradiate and molest airline passengers by the millions. People are jailed for taking medicine, buying Sudafed, sharing songs, and selling milk. The Kafkaesque regulatory state threatens people of all economic classes with crushing fines and a fate in a cage. The public schools, always authoritarian institutions, have become explicit adjuncts of the criminal justice system and military recruitment offices. Every major police department has tanks and battle rifles and drones are being used for surveillance and God knows what else. Each federal department has enough firepower to conquer a small third-world country. DHS alone has ordered enough ammo to shoot every American man, woman, and child. The president claims the right to kill American citizens anywhere on the planet on his say-so alone. And he exercises that power. Why do some of us continue to fixate on Waco? If for no other reason, because April 19, 1993 was a squandered opportunity if ever there was one. The people could have risen up and said, "Enough!" They could have demanded the military occupation retreat from their own neighborhoods – both the federal presence and its satellite jackboots in the city police. They could have demanded an end to the gun laws, drug war, and federal war on crime, each of which was instrumental in ending the lives of more than twenty children at Waco. They could have turned against the media whose elites stood and applauded the White House as it announced and defended its latest killing spree. They could have seen the federal government for the clear and present danger it obviously poses – the only government that had militarily mass murdered American civilians on American soil since the collateral damage at Pearl Harbor. They could have turned their backs on the killers in DC, refusing ever to believe in their lies again, saving the lives of uncountable Americans, Serbians, Afghans, Iraqis, Libyans, Yemenis, Palestinians, and so many others who would bear the wrath of an unhampered imperial executive in the nineteen years to come, sparing the priceless liberties we have seen shredded on the altar of state power. Instead, they looked the other way, they yawned, even cheered. There might still be time to turn things around. But the tanks are closing in.
Poster Comment: 
CAUTION - Progressives at work! 
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#11. To: jwpegler (#10)
Inquiring minds want to know. Here's the test: Can you answer the question in a civil tone, without foaming at the mouth, or not? I seriously doubt it, but let's see. ????? LOL! Spoken as the truly delusional little pussy that we ALL know you to be. You are a real piece of work. Who gave you the power or position to "test"/judge me in anyway you supercilious simpleton? What is my burden "to prove", anything; to you, or anybody else, FOOL? On my WORST day mentally, I'm better, smarter and more skilled than you entire bloodline would be in total, by orders of magnitude little boy. You know where you can stick it don't you little boy?
Spoiled, stupid and ignorant, brain dead phuckwads, libTURD fools, tools, and idiots, are the real sickness; the messiah "king" obammy and his regime are only the symptoms.
trayvon - Elian2 The libs are going to lose the election over this one too !
If you ... don't use exclamation points --- you should't be typeing ! Commas - semicolons - question marks are for girlie boys !
Mad:That's what you filth do, is it not hag? You try to CHANGE the subject. Exactly. She thinks- bizarrely- that there's an iota of difference whether the jack-boot on our necks is the left boot or the right. Friggin' idiot.
To: mcToejam, rat-boy, drippy, Alzheimer Fred, whitesands, t-bird, . The founders knew and feared over reaching government. They knew TYRANNY. Without the LAW for Government being honored and respected and OBSERVED in the sprit of the founders you just have mere men. Mere men almost ALWAYS turn into TYRANTS when given the power to do so. For the greater good of course. Their politics doesn't mean shit when their boot is on your neck. OUR enemies want to divide us, and set us against each other, that way we're too busy squalling to pay attention to THEM. I agree, she's a friggin IDIOT. There are herds of her roaming the American political and social landscape today. They are those who "back in the day" would have starved to death on their own, because they are too LAZY and STUPID to care for themselves. They are the mob that ran the streets of Rome.
Spoiled, stupid and ignorant, brain dead phuckwads, libTURD fools, tools, and idiots, are the real sickness; the messiah "king" obammy and his regime are only the symptoms.
From HERE: Connecting a person with an unpopular movement, or attaching to them an emotionally charged label; or calling a religion a “cult” and putting out false information across the media about “child molesting” and “weapons caches” is exactly the same technique that was used by the Nazis to portray the Jews as filthy, disgusting people, so they could be rounded up and killed without further justification. It is the same technique used by every tyrannical government, to kill any unpopular and potentially vocal adversarial person or group. F or example, on February 28,1993,the federal government commenced a 50-day siege on the Branch Davidian ranch at Mount Carmel, a property located 9 miles east-northeast of Waco, Texas. The purported justification was a barely coherent hodgepodge of unsubstantiated accusations of cult activities, gun violations, and sexual abuse of children; all of which were subsequently proven baseless. Indeed, what was portrayed as a Jonestown-style cult, the Branch Davidians, trace their origins back to a 1930 schism from the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Many of the members of the group at the Waco facility had been involved with the Davidians for several generations, and many had large families. The Davidian members were well known locally and had cordial relations with other locals. Neighbors who had known the Branch Davidians for fifteen years or more described them as “good Samaritan” types, who helped their neighbors and were kind and friendly. Normal people, good neighbors. Certainly the kind of folks you’d rather have living around you than murdering thugs, or gang-members engaging in ruthless drive-by shootings. Ask yourself which are more similar to the government’s subsequent actions. In a January 5,1992 interview by Martin King of Australian TV show A Current Affair, King asked the group’s leader, David Koresh: “Would you use a gun if someone trespassed?” Koresh replied: “They come in here with a gun and they start shooting at us, what would you do?” This exchange apparently promulgated the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (BATF) to obtain a warrant to search the premises for illegal weapons. According to the Affidavit presented by BATF investigator David Aguilera to US Magistrate Dennis G. Green on February 25,1993,the Branch Davidians had purchased many legal guns and gun parts from various legal vendors. Deliveries by UPS of legally purchased firearms and parts had been accepted and paid for at Mount Carmel Center by Woodrow Kendrick, Paul Fatta, David Koresh or Steve Schneider. These purchases were traced by Aguilera through the normal channels used to track legal firearms purchases from legal vendors. None of the weapons and firearms were illegally obtained nor illegally owned by the Davidians; however, Aguilera affirmed to the judge that in his experience,I n the past, other purchasers of such legal gun parts had modified them to make illegal firearms. The search warrant was justified not on the basis there was proof that the Davidians had done anything illegal, but on the basis that they might be modifying legal arms into illegal arms. Could? Might? Others? Was this adequate justification for a massacre of innocent men, women, and children? In retrospect, we can only conclude that, according to the Clinton Administration, the answer was “yes”. The BATF also alleged reports of automatic weapon fire, but when confronted with this accusation, residents Steve Schneider and David Koresh showed the county sheriff department a “Hellfire” device—a quick- firing trigger sold with a BATF letter certifying that the device was not a machine gun, and was, in fact, completely legal. The Davidians, like many other law-abiding American citizens, partly supported themselves by trading at gun shows and took care always to have the relevant paperwork to ensure their transactions were completely legal. 1 Davidian Paul Fatta was a licensed federal firearms dealer (FFL) and the Davidians operated a legal retail gun business called The Mag Bag. On July 30,1992,BATF agents David Aguilera and Jim Skinner visited the Davidians’ gun dealer Henry McMahon, who tried to get them to talk with Koresh on the phone. Koresh offered to let the BATF inspect the Davidians’ weapons and paperwork, and asked to speak with Aguilera. Aguilera declined to speak with him. Sheriff Harwell told reporters he had urged law enforcement officials to talk with Koresh, “Just go out and talk to them, what’s wrong with notifying them?” The BATF, however, had already decided on a more confrontational course of action. Between February 25 through 27, BATF agents sought and obtained training for the raid from Special Forces instructors at Fort Hood, Texas, by making a false claim that David Koresh was operating a methamphetamine lab. This provided the drug nexus necessary to obtain military assets under the “War on Drugs”. These facts alone suggest that those at the Waco facility had good reason for paranoia. Contrary to BATF claims that Koresh could not be captured outside the compound because he had been holed up for weeks, multiple witnesses confirm he was in town as recently as four days before the assault. Witnesses included a store owner providing receipts containing Koresh’s signature, a doctor who had treated him for back pain, and a bar manager who saw him eating lunch and having a beer. Like many Sundays at Mt. Carmel, morning prayers on February 28,1993 were followed by breakfast. Victoria Hollingsworth had been cleaning up when asked to go to the room where they met for Bible study and worship. She waited there with the other women and many of the children until David Koresh came in. There was silence. He said, “They’re coming. Get back to your rooms and watch. Don’t do anything stupid. We can work this out.” The BATF attempted to execute their search warrant on that Sunday morning. Any advantage of surprise was lost as a reporter, who had been tipped off about the raid, asked for directions from a U.S. Postal Service mail carrier who was coincidentally Koresh’s brother-in-law. Koresh then told BATF agent Robert Rodriguez, who had infiltrated the Branch Davidians (to his astonishment, as he was not aware that his cover had been blown), they knew a raid was imminent. The agent made an excuse and left the compound. When asked later what the Davidians had been doing when he left the compound, Rodriguez replied, “They were praying.” Three army Huey gunship attack helicopters were purportedly used as aerial distraction, but recent disclosures by witnesses report that they “came in with machine guns blazing, strafing the buildings as if they were attacking some Viet Nam village.” On the third floor, 75-year-old Margaret Lawson and 77-year-old Catherine Matteson gathered children in a schoolroom to get them away from the gunfire and bombs going off below. Suddenly the ceiling erupted with a burst of machinegun fire from the helicopter gunships. The elderly women shielded the children with their own bodies. Miraculously, none of the machinegun fire struck anyone in the crowded room. Elsewhere, the machinegun fire killed Peter Gent, Peter Hipsman as he lay in bed, and Winston Blake as he sat on the edge of his bed, eating French toast. When the two old ladies managed to escape the compound with the children, they were arrested, charged with murder and thrown in jail. Now pause for a moment and contemplate just what kind of “police officer” would interpret his oath to uphold the constitution, or his duty to ‘protect and serve’ to include indiscriminate heavy machine gun fire into a building full of women, children, elderly people . . . . What would be his justification if (as is almost never the case) he was brought before any legitimate legal tribunal? Was he “only following orders”? Was this not the same excuse offered by many Nazi prison guards . . . guards who were subsequently convicted and hanged? Have we become so calloused to violence against our fellow citizens that we are prepared to accept the word of a government we know to be deceitful that these citizens deserved to be summarily executed? Are we more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to lying, jack- booted thugs than innocent women and children? During this siege, four BATF agents were killed. Although it is not known with certainty who fired the first shots, early information suggested there might have been an accidental discharge of a weapon, possibly by a BATF agent, causing the BATF to respond with fire from automatic weapons. Other reports claim the first shots were fired by the BATF “dog team” sent to neutralize (kill) the dogs in the Davidian kennel. A recent videotape by Linda Thompson entitled Waco, the Big Lie, purports to prove that those BATF agents were not killed or shot at by Branch Davidians, but rather, shows the agents going into the compound through an upstairs window. It then shows another BATF agent, positioned on a roof, actually shooting in through the window where the other agents had just entered. Thus, it appears pretty certain that the four BATF agents were killed by ‘friendly fire’. While not standard procedure, BATF agents had their blood type written on their arms or neck after leaving the staging area and before the raid because it was recommended by the military to facilitate speedy blood transfusions in the case of injury. Clearly, the government was planning an armed conflict. During the first shots, Koresh was wounded. David Thibodeau, a Waco survivor, was interviewed on A Current Affair, a national television show, on May 3rd,1993. He declared that one of the members of the Branch Davidians, Wayne Martin, a Harvard- trained attorney, called 911 shortly after the federal agents stormed the compound. He was put through to another agency, and the person said, “Well,hi boys,how y’all doin’ out there?” Wayne Martin pleaded for them to stop shooting, screaming into the phone, “We’re getting shot at. We’re getting killed. Here they come again!” and “That’s them shooting, that’s not us!” Following the BATF’s failed initial attack, the FBI settled in for a lengthy siege. During the standoff, government propaganda was released to the press asserting that: “[Koresh is] your stock cult leader…. They’re all the same. Meet one and you’ve met them all. They’re deeply disturbed, have a borderline personality disorder and lack any type of conscience…. No one willingly enters into a relationship like this…. So you’re talking about deception and manipulation (by the leader),people being coached in ever so slight increments, pulled in deeper and deeper without knowing where it’s going or seeing the total picture.” Around the 40th day of the siege, the wounded Koresh sent a message that the children and babies were out of milk. Two relief efforts to bring baby food to the Mt Carmel compound were turned back. Two people, one of them Gary Spaulding from South Bend, Indiana, were arrested for trying to take the food past a roadblock. When he posed the direct question to the FBI headquarters, “Has it come to this? Does the United States government want babies to starve to death?” The answer was, verbatim: “Yes.” The FBI hinted that the Davidians might commit mass suicide, as had happened at Jonestown (where 918 people killed themselves at their leader’s behest), although there was no evidence of any such intent or preparations. U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno approved recommendations by the FBI to mount an assault after purportedly being told that conditions were deteriorating and that children were being abused inside the compound. Over the next several months, however, Reno repeatedly changed her story as to the reason for approving the final tank-and-gas attack. Whereas she initially alleged that the FBI had told her that Koresh was sexually abusing children and beating babies (the FBI later denied evidence of child abuse during the standoff), she later claimed that Linda Thompson and her one- woman “Unorganized Militia of the United States” was on their (her) way to Waco to aid or attack Koresh. Ultimately, when President Clinton suggested continued patience, Reno countered that the FBI was tired of waiting; that the standoff was costing a million dollars a week; and that the Davidians could hold out longer than she was willing to wait. Clinton later recalled: “Finally,I told her that if she thought it was the right thing to do,she could go ahead.” The siege ended 50 days after it began, with agents attacking with tanks and setting the compound ablaze. Seventy-six people died in the fire, including more than 20 children, two pregnant women, and the sect leader David Koresh. Janet Reno’s ‘concern for the wellbeing of the children’? See for yourself: In the subsequent investigations, government reports were revealed to contain numerous distortions and outright lies. In August,1999, documents were uncovered which indicated that during the raid on the Branch Davidian compound, the FBI employed flammable tear gas canisters. This revelation contradicted previous assertions of the FBI and the Department of Justice that the government had done nothing that could have contributed to the start or spread of the fire. Since it’s often those on the political right who are most inclined to accept the official government accounts, it”s only fair to ask: did THESE children not have some right to life? Are the accounts of THESE particular Christians to be summarily discounted, in favor of the words of a government, and an administration, that you already distrust? An administration led by a man who was subsequently impeached for lying under oath? Are you more inclined to believe the words of armed thugs who don’t dare show their faces, who think nothing of firing machine guns into buildings full of civilians? Finally, are you willing to take this abhorrent stance simply because some of your fellow citizens (the “liberals”),with whom you happen to disagree on other issues, might feel this represents an atrocity of the first order? Indeed, taking only what the government has admitted to having done—the spraying of CS gas into the compound at the women and small children—U.S. Congressman Ron Paul reminds all Americans that: “CS gas is banned under the Paris Convention on chemical warfare. The U.S. could not use it in war. It is illegal, but they would use it against their own citizens.”— The Washington Times, April 23,1993. Well, those were crazy armed cultists, so it’s okay to attack them with tanks and helicopter gunships! One can only wonder, what next? Nerve gas? Biological weapons? A tactical nuke? Think what you want about the group or their principles, but dropping bombs on American citizens, on American soil? Is this the action of a police force, or a standing mercenary army, bent on murdering opponents of the ruling junta? Very often, an event can be better understood by the events that transpire after it. Who benefits? Was any controversial legislation passed or proposed that would destroy Constitutional liberty? Two weeks after the massacre at Mount Carmel, John Chafee, a senator from Rhode Island, called for a new law that would institute a nationwide ban on hand gun ownership. It would prohibit the sale, possession, importing, and exporting of hand guns. Had Chafee’s proposal become law, it would have torn a huge gap in the 2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, which says,“…the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.” Who wants to disarm citizens? Well, clearly, it’s difficult to be the dictator of a nation with 200 million guns around. Every man in Switzerland is required to have guns in his home, including assault rifles. Crime in Switzerland is almost non- existent. During World War Two, Hitler wanted to invade Switzerland. The Swiss told him that he could send his army across the border, but none of his officers would return. Hitler gave the order to invade Switzerland several times, but his officers simply would not obey. Switzerland remained safely neutral throughout the war. One final piece of this insidious puzzle: On 5/17/2011, the Supreme Court decided that the armed enforcers of the Republicrat Junta didn’t have enough latitude when it comes to violating citizens’ Constitutional protection against unreasonable search and seizure. In an 8-1 Ruling, they decreed that police no longer need a warant to kick in a door if they “suspect evidence is being destroyed.” When you open the door for the kinds of abuses we’ve just examined, that door is not only open for those whom you don’t like; it’s open for everyone. Of course, the ruling junta always has a good reason—unsanitary conditions, a ‘child abuse’ cult, renegade Indians, people who look like our enemies.... The end result is the same: If we allow them to do so, they will use the same kind of force against anyone they please. In every case, the propaganda is identical: Americans are brainwashed into believing that these actions are justified because the victims… aren’t like them…. Make no mistake: unless you are the kind of complacent, compliant, docile, brain-dead worker drone they want (or a rich elite),the time will come when they come for you,but by then it will be too late. To: mcToejam, rat-boy, drippy, Alzheimer Fred, whitesands, t-bird, Do you think the government is responsible for Jones Town too? You yammer on a lot about personal responsibility for a guy who blames government for everything wrong in your life. Move to Somalia! (don't forget your gun)
Anyone claiming to be an expert is selling something. I brandish my ignorance like a crucifix at vampires. Aaron Bady
Awesome posts! Let us never forget the tyranny of a corrupt government.
Disinformation Tactic #4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent’s argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues. Disinformation Tactic #5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary attack the messenger ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Really, you'll have to do MUCH better. I know that, being intellectually deficient (indeed, you brag about your ignorance)... but DO try to keep up.
To: mcToejam, rat-boy, drippy, Alzheimer Fred, whitesands, t-bird, We disagree, a lot of the time. So your feedback is appreciated. Regards,
To: mcToejam, rat-boy, drippy, Alzheimer Fred, whitesands, t-bird, Wow usually you are the one who doesn't read your own articles. But I see you are still retarded about refusing to believe Ron Paul loves corporate personhood. Who do you think are most in favor of doing away with the second amendment and are behind many of our gun control laws?
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
Desperate to change the subject to your socialist talking-points, I see. (((Wink))) Your desperation is obvious. Now lick the hand that feeds you.
To: mcToejam, rat-boy, drippy, Alzheimer Fred, whitesands, t-bird,
It's a yukon disruptor-troll-bot clone. Same shuck 'n jive.
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
REMEMBER WACO!
. The feral gooberment's mass murder of it's own citizens at WACO cannot be understood without seeing it as part of the same thing that the same feral gooberment did at RUBY RIDGE. ..................... "Remember Ruby Ridge by Tim Lynch This article was published in National Review Online, Aug. 21, 2002. Ruby Ridge" used to refer to a geographical location in the state of Idaho, but after an incident that took place there 10 years ago on Aug. 21, the phrase has come to refer to a scandalous series of events that opened the eyes of many people to the inner workings of the federal government, including the vaunted Federal Bureau of Investigation. Now that 10 years have passed, the feds will accelerate their ongoing effort to "move forward" and have the scandal declared "ancient history." But the Ruby Ridge episode should not be soon forgotten. On August 21, 1992 a paramilitary unit of the U.S. Marshals Service ventured onto the 20- acre property known as Ruby Ridge. A man named Randy Weaver owned the land and he lived there with his wife, children, and a family friend, Kevin Harris. There was an outstanding warrant for Weaver's arrest for a firearms offense and the marshals were surveilling the premises. When the family dog noticed the marshals sneaking around in the woods, it began to bark wildly. Weaver's 14-year-old boy, Sammy, and Kevin Harris proceeded to grab their rifles because they thought the dog had come upon a wild animal. A firefight erupted when a marshal shot and killed the dog. Enraged that the family pet had been cut down for no good reason, Sammy shot into the woods at the unidentified trespasser. Within a few minutes, two human beings were shot dead: Sammy Weaver and a marshal. Harris and the Weaver family retreated to their cabin and the marshals retreated from the mountain and called the FBI for assistance. Timothy Lynch is director of the Cato Institute's Project on Criminal Justice. More by Tim Lynch During the night, FBI snipers took positions around the Weaver cabin. There is no dispute about the fact that the snipers were given illegal "shoot to kill" orders. Under the law, police agents can use deadly force to defend themselves and others from imminent attack, but these snipers were instructed to shoot any adult who was armed and outside the cabin, regardless of whether the adult posed a threat or not. The next morning, an FBI agent shot and wounded Randy Weaver. A few moments later, the same agent shot Weaver's wife in the head as she was standing in the doorway of her home holding a baby in her arms. The FBI snipers had not yet announced their presence and had not given the Weavers an opportunity to peacefully surrender. After an 11-day standoff, Weaver agreed to surrender. The FBI told the world that it had apprehended a band of dangerous racists. The New York Times was duped into describing a family (two parents, three children) and one adult friend as "an armed separatist brigade." The Department of Justice proceeded to take over the case, charging Weaver and Harris with conspiracy to commit "murder." Federal prosecutors asked an Idaho jury to impose the death penalty. Instead, the jury acquitted Weaver and Harris of all of the serious criminal charges. Embarrassed by the outcome, FBI officials told the world that there would be a thorough review of the case, but the Bureau closed ranks and covered up the mess. FBI director Louis Freeh went so far as to promote one of the agents involved, Larry Potts, to the Bureau's number-two position. When Weaver sued the federal government for the wrongful death of his wife and son, the government that had tried to kill him twice now sought an out-of-court settlement. In August 1995 the U.S. government paid the Weaver family $3.1 million. On the condition that his name not be used in an article, one Department of Justice official told the Washington Post that if Weaver's suit had gone to trial in Idaho, he probably would have been awarded $200 million. With the intervening events at Waco, more and more people began to question the veracity of Department of Justice and FBI accounts and whether the federal government had the capacity to hold its own agents accountable for criminal misconduct. Like the Watergate scandal, however, the response to the initial illegality turned out to be even more shocking and disturbing. When an FBI supervisor, Michael Kahoe, admitted to destroying evidence and obstructing justice, he was eventually prosecuted but only after being kept on the FBI payroll until his 50th birthday -- so that he would be eligible for his retirement pension. And when Larry Potts was finally forced into retirement, FBI officials flew into Washington from around the country for his going-away bash. Those officials claimed to be on "official business" so they billed the taxpayers for the trip. After the fraud was leaked to the press by some anonymous and apparently sickened FBI agent, the merry band of partygoers were not discharged from service. Instead, a letter was placed in their personnel file, chiding them with "inattention to detail." An Idaho prosecutor did bring manslaughter charges against the FBI sniper who shot Vicki Weaver. That move really outraged the feds because they insisted that they were capable of policing their own -- so long as they did not have any outside "interference." The Department of Justice was so disturbed by the indictment of its agent that they dispatched the solicitor general to a federal appellate court to argue that the charges should be dismissed. (The solicitor general ordinarily only makes oral arguments to the Supreme Court). The solicitor general told the judicial panel that even if the evidence supported the charges, the case should be thrown out because "federal law enforcement agents are privileged to do what would otherwise be unlawful if done by a private citizen." The appeals court rejected that sweeping argument for a license to kill, but by the time that ruling came down last June, a new local prosecutor was in office in Boundary County, Idaho, and he announced that it was time to put this whole unpleasant episode behind us and to "move on." Thus, the criminal case against the sniper was dropped. A new generation of young people who have never heard of Ruby Ridge are now emerging from the public school system and are heading off to college and will thereafter begin their careers in business, education, journalism, government and other fields. This generation will find it hard to fathom that the federal government could have killed a boy and an unarmed woman and then tried to deceive everyone about what had actually occurred and, in some instances, rationalize what did occur. That is why it is important to remember Ruby Ridge. Someone needs to remind the young people (and everyone else) that it really did happen -- and that it will happen again if the government is not kept on a short leash. No one will learn about the incident when they tour the FBI facility in Washington. It goes unmentioned for some reason." Spoiled, stupid and ignorant, brain dead phuckwads, libTURD fools, tools, and idiots, are the real sickness; the messiah "king" obammy and his regime are only the symptoms.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
The subject was not changed but expanded but don't you worry your pretty little head, no one's trying out for your job as chief propagandist of the forum.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
Why don't you find the whole interview so we can hear Paul finish what he was saying, rather than cutting him off mid-sentence. Or are you merely a prevaricating party poop pusher?
Or are you merely a prevaricating party poop pusher? I got it off the Ron Paul site where it was included in a discussion, and there doesn't seem a copy with that last line intact.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
Then it's useless and proves nothing. So why did you post it? We don't even know that it was the "last line". He may have gone on at some length.
We don't even know that it was the "last line". He may have gone on at some length. Because it tells one what he believes. And even if he rationalizes his previous statements or spins it in some fashion, it just makes it appear that he wants to have it both ways. Sorry, but your guy seems to think that pieces of paper have first amendment rights.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
No, it doesn't! That's my point. Look, I've known him for years. He does not support corporate welfare and he does believe that corporate managers have rights and responsibilities! He does not support treating a corporate entity as a human being, just that when individuals form a corporation they do not lose their rights. Knowing him as I do, I know that he has a fully nuanced position on "corporate personhood", which includes treating corporations, as an entity, differently in law than individual human beings are.
It either tells one what he believes or that he wants it both ways and that's my point. Then those individuals either as stockholder or officers need to stop asking the umbrella of incorporation to protect them individually from liabilities that others are open to.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
BS. The raid was on Clinton's watch.
And that is?
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
Do conservatives all have lousy short term memories?
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
Maybe they just think everyone else does.
Anyone claiming to be an expert is selling something. I brandish my ignorance like a crucifix at vampires. Aaron Bady
You posted that claim about an artcle on the Waco raid and seige. It began and ended under Bill Clinton.
It was carried out under Clinton, he'd only been in office for a month, but was planned in the Bush administration.
Anyone claiming to be an expert is selling something. I brandish my ignorance like a crucifix at vampires. Aaron Bady
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
That was the culmination of the seige. They started the actual attempts to destroy the compound and disburse the inhabitants through "more peaceful means" during GHWBush.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
I wonder if many here realize it was the good business people of Waco tired of Koresh's antics, who put the pressure on the politicos to have something done. And that this directly led to GWBush being elected governor.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
I didn't realize that.
Anyone claiming to be an expert is selling something. I brandish my ignorance like a crucifix at vampires. Aaron Bady
Ma Richards along with the Dem party were not considered to be up to the task of protecting the average Texas business man from those they considered to be kooks.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
You: Spoken as the truly delusional little pussy... Ok, so the answer is that you can't. You are mentally I'll. Got it.
jerkoff; I often wonder if you are acting or if you really are an uncontrollable mental case. Inquiring minds want to know. Here's the test: Can you answer the question in a civil tone, without foaming at the mouth, or not? I seriously doubt it, but let's see. ????? MD; LOL! Spoken as the truly delusional little pussy that we ALL know you to be. You are a real piece of work. Who gave you the power or position to "test"/judge me in anyway you supercilious simpleton? What is my burden "to prove", anything; to you, or anybody else, FOOL? On my WORST day mentally, I'm better, smarter and more skilled than you entire bloodline would be in total, by orders of magnitude little boy. You know where you can stick it don't you little boy? Spoiled, stupid and ignorant, brain dead phuckwads, libTURD fools, tools, and idiots, are the real sickness; the messiah "king" obammy and his regime are only the symptoms. Geeze you little bitch, wouldn't the 'ol dog play YOUR game wit YOU bitch? LOL! So now in your alleged "mind", I'm "mentally ill" eh bitch? (Jeeeze bitch who saw THAT coming?) LOL! Could you cite your authority again to question ANYBODY about their sanity bitch? You have zero power you little arrogant bitch. NOTHING that you say or do makes any difference to any sane American. YOU are what's wrong with America today. You are a coward, a mewling craven creep, and a gibbering LOSER. Good luck wit dat sparky. LMAOAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Spoiled, stupid and ignorant, brain dead phuckwads, libTURD fools, tools, and idiots, are the real sickness; the messiah "king" obammy and his regime are only the symptoms.
lol You do know how to turn a phrase! I still get a kick out of them! roflmao
. Thank you Ma'am. I think the targets of my ire might disagree with your evaluation. Oh well ... (Sometimes I feel a little guilty for picking on these obviously sub standard minds, but then I remember that we all have to play the hands we are dealt.) "Alea iacta est !"
Spoiled, stupid and ignorant, brain dead phuckwads, libTURD fools, tools, and idiots, are the real sickness; the messiah "king" obammy and his regime are only the symptoms.
You are mentally ill. You know it and everyone knows it, INCLUDING your butt buddy, yukon. How does everyone know you are mentally ill? Your own personally signed and secured monicker of "MAD" along with aliasing yourself with being a "DOG" is proof of the pudding. You are a laff a minute when your paw touches a keyboard. Of course your two chosen monicker terms about of "MAD DOG" are separated by an ASCII "space" which represents the gigantic and vacuous space that voraciously flows between the two terms to begin with; that space represents your mind which is consciously lacking. Such a shame to the human race that you are, mongrel. You may require being "put to sleep" in the future.
+1 LOL
I often wonder if you are acting or if you really are an uncontrollable mental case.
#12. To: All (#3)
The hale bopp inferno ... blew in on waco --- blew out on elian !
#13. To: Mad Dog (#6)
mininggold: This rant conspicuously excludes the fact that the whole thing started under Poppy Bush.
The economy is wonderful!
Re-elect Obama, he'll pay your rent!
A chicken in every pot!
-- Baghdad Bri-bri -- loonymom, ming, e-type jackoff, goober56, wreck, cal-CON, rabid dog, dummy DwarF, biff, harrowup the communist, and meguro. You're on the "a waste of human flesh" list. Brian S[ocialist], you're a propagandist moron. ALL of you can piss off.
#14. To: Capitalist Eric (#13)
#15. To: hondo68 (#0)
1 Contrast this with the ATF’s Operation Fast and Furious, in which government agents coerced gun dealers to illegally sell guns to Mexican drug cartel members, purportedly in order to trace their flow. Many of the guns, of which they promptly lost track, were subsequently used to murder civilians, and even American border police. 
Figure 7:UH- 1 HUEY Gunship –Standard “police”issue?
Figure 8:Detail of UH-1 HUEY Gunship armament. –just the thing for women and children.
Figure 9:BATF agents entering the Branch Davidian building (despite official claims that no such entry had been attempted). Why are we inclined to take the word of proven liars over that of innocent victims?
Since all 911 calls are preserved, it should be easy to confirm this phone call, but as Current Affair reporter Mary Garafolo stated, “It has become a controversial recording that the police refuse to release to the press.” There was absolutely no response to that emergency 911 call. Does withholding this recording sound more like a matter of national security, or a simple cover-up?
Figure 10:Burnt body of child after Waco attack.
Figure 11:Remains of victim after Waco attack.
Figure 12: Children killed by government forces at Waco.
Figure 13: Conflagration caused by government forces at Branch Davidian compound.
Contrary to BATF’s stated concern for the children and women, agents fired wildly into the building, often being seen on videotape crouching behind cover, holding machine guns over their heads and ‘spraying’ the building with bullets.
Figure 14: US Army Tanks deployed against citizens at Waco: “We’re from the government; we’re here to help.…’ Which part of Posse Comitatus do you suppose was ambiguous?
A new documentary contends that federal agents used an explosive device to blast a gaping hole in a bunker holding women and children. The two-hour film also asserts that government agents fired bullets at the rear of Mount Carmel building as it burned on the last day of the siege, in order to prevent escape. The intent was clearly to ensure that there would be no evidence and no witnesses.
Figure 15: The Posse Comitatus Act is a United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385) passed on June 18,1878. The Act prohibits Army and Air Force personnel and units of the National Guard under federal authority from acting in a law enforcement capacity within the United States, except where expressly authorized by the Constitution or Congress. ‘Posse Comitatus? We don’t need no steenking Posse Comitatus!’
Figure 16:Japanese internment camp.
Figure 17:Japanese-American citizens being rounded up by US Troops. (It”s okay,though –they were only ‘following orders.’)
The economy is wonderful!
Re-elect Obama, he'll pay your rent!
A chicken in every pot!
-- Baghdad Bri-bri -- loonymom, ming, e-type jackoff, goober56, wreck, cal-CON, rabid dog, dummy DwarF, biff, harrowup the communist, and meguro. You're on the "a waste of human flesh" list. Brian S[ocialist], you're a propagandist moron. ALL of you can piss off.
#16. To: Capitalist Eric (#5)
#17. To: Capitalist Eric, hondo68 (#15)
#18. To: lucysmom (#16)
Do you think the government is responsible for Jones Town too?
You yammer on a lot about personal responsibility for a guy who blames government for everything wrong in your life. Move to Somalia! (don't forget your gun)
The economy is wonderful!
Re-elect Obama, he'll pay your rent!
A chicken in every pot!
-- Baghdad Bri-bri -- loonymom, ming, e-type jackoff, goober56, wreck, cal-CON, rabid dog, dummy DwarF, biff, harrowup the communist, and meguro. You're on the "a waste of human flesh" list. Brian S[ocialist], you're a propagandist moron. ALL of you can piss off.
#19. To: buckeroo (#17)
The economy is wonderful!
Re-elect Obama, he'll pay your rent!
A chicken in every pot!
-- Baghdad Bri-bri -- loonymom, ming, e-type jackoff, goober56, wreck, cal-CON, rabid dog, dummy DwarF, biff, harrowup the communist, and meguro. You're on the "a waste of human flesh" list. Brian S[ocialist], you're a propagandist moron. ALL of you can piss off.
#20. To: hondo68 (#2)
It doesn't retard, read the article. I even put that fact in the keywords.
#21. To: mininggold, hondo68 (#20)
The economy is wonderful!
Re-elect Obama, he'll pay your rent!
A chicken in every pot!
-- Baghdad Bri-bri -- loonymom, ming, e-type jackoff, goober56, wreck, cal-CON, rabid dog, dummy DwarF, biff, harrowup the communist, and meguro. You're on the "a waste of human flesh" list. Brian S[ocialist], you're a propagandist moron. ALL of you can piss off.
#22. To: mininggold (#20)
But I see you are still retarded about refusing to believe Ron Paul loves corporate personhood.
#23. To: Capitalist Eric, mininggold, *Yukon neo-Progressive Vermin* (#21)
Desperate to change the subject
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#24. To: hondo68 (#23)
You DO NOT use military force against our
own citizens, especially women and children!!
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/wacopg.htm
Video: Dick Morris – Bill Clinton Personally Orchestrated the 1993 Waco, Texas Tragedy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9x8bwcOSWs&feature=player_embedded
YOUTUBE:
Seventeen Little Children - Karl Lang (Waco)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH27jgGqXbE
#25. To: hondo68 (#0)
(Edited)
#26. To: Anthem (#22)
#27. To: hondo68 (#23)
It's a yukon disruptor-troll-bot clone. Same shuck 'n jive.
#28. To: mininggold (#26)
#29. To: Anthem (#28)
Why don't you find the whole interview so we can hear Paul finish what he was saying, rather than cutting him off mid-sentence.
#30. To: mininggold (#29)
I got it off the Ron Paul site where it was included in a discussion, and there doesn't seem a copy with that last line intact.
#31. To: Anthem (#30)
Then it's useless and proves nothing. So why did you post it?
#32. To: mininggold (#31)
Because it tells one what he believes.
#33. To: Anthem (#32)
#34. To: mininggold (#1)
the whole thing started under Poppy Bush
#35. To: mininggold (#33)
(Edited)
It either tells one what he believes...
#36. To: Abcdefg (#34)
the whole thing started under Poppy Bush
#37. To: Anthem (#35)
And that is?
#38. To: mininggold (#37)
Do conservatives all have lousy short term memories?
#39. To: mininggold (#36)
#40. To: Abcdefg (#39)
It began and ended under Bill Clinton.
#41. To: Abcdefg (#39)
(Edited)
#42. To: All (#41)
You posted that claim about an artcle on the Waco raid and seige. It began and ended under Bill Clinton.
#43. To: lucysmom (#40)
It was carried out under Clinton, he'd only been in office for a month, but was planned in the Bush administration.
#44. To: mininggold (#43)
And that this directly led to GWBush being elected governor.
#45. To: lucysmom (#44)
I didn't realize that.
#46. To: Mad Dog (#11)
Me: Can you answer the question in a civil tone, without foaming at the mouth, or not?
Iran’s main drive for acquiring atomic weapons is not for use against Israel but as a deterrent against U.S. intervention -- Major General Zeevi Farkash, head of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate
#47. To: jwpegler (#46)
#11. To: jwpegler (#10)
#48. To: Mad Dog (#47)
#49. To: SJN (#48)
#50. To: Mad Dog, jwpegler, Anthem (#47)
So now in your alleged "mind", I'm "mentally ill" eh bitch?
#51. To: buckeroo (#50)
Iran’s main drive for acquiring atomic weapons is not for use against Israel but as a deterrent against U.S. intervention -- Major General Zeevi Farkash, head of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate
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