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Title: Was It Worth It?
Source:
LewRockwell.com
URL Source: http://lewrockwell.com/vance/vance272.html
Published: Dec 30, 2011
Author: Laurence M. Vance
Post Date: 2011-12-31 17:44:33 by Fibr Dog
Keywords: None
Views: 7846
Comments: 17
Would you sacrifice your firstborn son to establish a democracy in country that had a dictatorship? How about giving up your son to effect a regime change? What about exchanging your son to end the oppression of minorities? How about trading your son in return for a country holding elections? I don’t know of any American mother or father that would do such a thing. I wouldn’t give a finger from one of my sons to do any of these things. Some Americans, however, wouldn’t mind it if some other American’s son came back from some foreign war in a box with only a finger that was recognizable – just as long as it wasn’t their son. Now that the war in Iraq is officially over, I keep hearing from apologists for the war about how it was worth it. I keep hearing that because Saddam Hussein is gone, Iraq has a Constitution, Iraqis have freedom, and Iraq holds elections that all the death and destruction was worth it. "We are leaving behind a sovereign, stable and self-reliant Iraq, with a representative government that was elected by its people," President Obama told the troops at Fort Bragg. "I think the price has been worth it, to establish a stable government in a very important region of the world," said Defense Secretary Leon Panetta. Of course, none of Panetta’s three sons died in Iraq. Okay, suppose it’s all true – and then some. Suppose it’s even better than anyone could have imagined. What if Iraq is now a model democracy for the rest of the world? What if Iraq now has a constitution that rivals our own? What if there is now no more sectarian violence in Iraq? What if Iraq now has a free market? What if Iraq is now an American ally? What if Iraq is now a friend of Israel? What if Iraqis now have freedom of speech and freedom of religion? What if Iraq now respects the rights of women and minorities? What if all Iraqi children are now in school? What if Baghdad is really the best city on earth instead of the worst? Would it now be worth the life of your son? Can you look your son in the face and tell him that you would have sacrificed him to bring about these changes in Iraq? And if your son had the misfortune of dying in Iraq, how do you think he would feel if he could now hear you say that his death was worth it? There are a total of 4,484 American sons (and daughters) who died in Iraq. Some of them came home in one piece in a flag-draped coffin; others came home in a box of unidentified fragments and were dumped in a landfill. Hundreds of thousands of Iraq War vets suffer from PTSD or traumatic brain injuries. Many thousands more are missing an arm or a leg – or combinations thereof. Hundreds of vets will need a lifetime of medical and/or psychiatric care. Hundreds have committed suicide, as will hundreds more. And then there are the thousands of Iraqi defenders (remember, we invaded them) killed, the many thousands of civilians killed, the 1.2 million Iraqis displaced, and the 1.6 million Iraqis made refugees, not to mention the horrendous destruction of infrastructure. But, of course, none of this matters since these are just dark-skinned foreigners who speak a difficult language, worship a strange god, and wear towels on their head. And besides, they are all terrorists anyway, or would grow up to be one. So, even though Iraqis paid a terrible price for their "freedom," let’s just focus on America and Americans. I don’t think it was worth one drop of blood from one American soldier to bring about anything "good" that happened in Iraq. Not a drop of blood, not an injury, not a headache. It doesn’t matter if Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. It doesn’t matter if Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator. It doesn’t matter if Iraqis were not free. It doesn’t matter if women in Iraq were oppressed. It doesn’t matter if Iraq was a threat to its neighbors. It doesn’t matter if Iraq was not a friend of Israel. It doesn’t matter if Iraq was not pumping enough oil. It doesn’t matter if Saddam Hussein gassed his own people. Nothing that was going on in Iraq mattered. The United States is not the policeman, fireman, security guard, social worker, mediator, babysitter, guardian, manager, or overseer of the world. Any American concerned about anything going on in Iraq should have gone there and put his own life on the line and on his own dime instead of expecting other Americans to expend their blood and treasure. I have consistently maintained these views since the beginning of the Iraq War. Yet, although I am the one who didn’t want the drop of one American soldier spilled in some senseless foreign war, I am the one who has been labeled un-American and unpatriotic; I am the one who is said to be unsupportive of the troops and a traitor. The next time some armchair warrior, some warvangelical, some member of Congress, some reich-wing nationalist, some bloodthirsty conservative, some warmongering Republican, some red-state fascist, some neocon, or some theocon beats the drums for war – like they are doing regarding Iran right now – tell him to put his son in uniform, put him on the first plane overseas, and tell his son what a noble cause it is that he is being sent to die for. Let him tell his son how much his death will be worth it. And if he doesn’t think it worth the death of his son, then it is not worth the death of any other American’s son either. December 30, 2011 Laurence M. Vance [send him mail] writes from central Florida. He is the author of Christianity and War and Other Essays Against the Warfare State, The Revolution that Wasn't, and Rethinking the Good War. His latest book is The Quatercentenary of the King James Bible. Visit his website. Copyright © 2011 by LewRockwell.com. Permission to reprint in whole or in part is gladly granted, provided full credit is given.
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#1. To: Fibr Dog, *The Two Parties ARE the Same* (#0)
What about the left wing neolib warmonger progressives, they somehow get off the hook? They couldn't have done any of it without the dems too. Calling it "humanitarian" or having a Nobel Peace Prize, doesn't make it any better. Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
I thought the same thing when I read that passage. The Democrat party and its partisans are just as bloodthirsty as their Republican counterparts. Notice how all of the anti-war protests completely stopped after their boy took office. All of a sudden contributing to the death of American soldiers was in vogue.
It's even worse than that. Afghanistan is not a "country" like we are used to thinking about countries. Rather, it's a lose confederation of tribal leaders and war lords. The "government" has control of the capital city Kabul and perhaps one or two other cities. The real question is: Would you sacrifice your firstborn son in a vain attempt to establish a country where no real country has ever existed before?
Unfortunately there are millions of unthinking parents who care more for the state than they do their own flesh and blood and are more than willing to sacrifice their children on the blood alter of the state.
Word.
We have a weekly anti-war vigil at the 'old Federal' building on the W7th and Pearl St. corner that never stopped after Obama took office. Just to add some clarity to this comment. We also have an activist anti-Zionist group that sets up every week at the Wayne Mores free speech plaza every week Saturday Market is in session too. Not to mention the Ron Paul booth I helped start and was set up every week this mid-summer and fall Saturday Market will resume when market does when April rolls around. My city voted overwhelmingly for Obama last election, but there are plenty of people here like me who don't trust him on war and individual rights here in Lane County.
Good for you guys! Keep up the pressure. That takes nothing away from the point Fred and the earlier poster made,though. It's the DNC organized PARTISAN protests that get all the media attention,and once the Dims are in charge you see and hear nothing of any anti-war protests even when a Dim president expands a war. There is nothing new about this,either. Notice how the media started calling VN "Nixons War" in the 70's,despite it being JFK that sent the first advisors there and it was LBJ that waged massive war for massive profits? I have personally talked with people who grew up in the 70's that just KNOW it was Nixon that started the VN war,and "that is why Republicans are so evil". Look at Cindy Sheehan for a modern-day example. She was a absolute media darling when Boy Jorge was in office. Now Barry Soetoro is in office,and Sheehan can't even get arrested."Cindy WHO?" She is as anti-war as ever,and nobody cares.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
All I Knew was the danger of Fred's blanket statement. And I know opposing this neocon climate of perpetual war is important to do. Ron Paul has proven more consistent and reliable in showing a commitment to his beliefs than any other candidate and that is going to attract my vote more than someone mouthing a position closer to my personal political paradigm. I am tired of being lied to, and I care deeply about a commitment to our constitutional republic.
I am tired of being lied to, and I care deeply about a commitment to our constitutional republic. We've had anti-war protests here, and about as large as those during the Bush era too, although they did subside a bit during the first year to see if Obama was going to keep his word. There's rarely any news media around or even a mention in the local winery corporation run rag.
"ROTFLMAO... Perfect! She longs... for someone to Teabag her. a man that squats on top of a women's face and lowers his genitals into her mouth during sex, known as "teabagging" She aches for it"... ~~~JWpegler. Head Tea Bagger and Tea Party supporter extraordinaire, explicitly expressing his fantasies in public about other posters.
No prob. There seems to be a news blackout on whatever anti-war protests there have been out there for around the past 3 years is what I meant to say. That is, excluding OWS and their many grievances.
We also have an activist anti-Zionist group that sets up every week at the Wayne Mores free speech plaza every week Saturday Market is in session too. Not to mention the Ron Paul booth I helped start and was set up every week this mid-summer and fall Saturday Market will resume when market does when April rolls around. Thank you.
It took the press awhile to get around to reporting OWS.
Economics is a social phenomenon and in no way a “science”, no matter how desperately its high priests would like to have it believed otherwise. It is, instead, a branch of anthropology and the sooner that is recognized and accepted, the better off human-kind in general and the world of academic economics, in particular, shall be proximity1 We probably will see widespread civil disorder in the 1980s, as a direct result of our faltering economic system. Ron Paul
No it didn't. In fact they propped up the now dead movement.
Thanks Fred. You are always an adult about things and understand that an 'au contraire mon ami' from me is never an attack on you as a person. It's a big part of why I love having you in here. You have great horse sense on things. A big part of the damage neocons like Bush, Cheney, and others do to us is promotion of a mindset that as Americans we can't afford to disagree with one another without considering each other mortal enemies when to do so is just well and fine as long as we on the deepest level realize we are all Americans and all part of the wonderful experiment our founders and framers of the U.S. Constitution started so long ago. We are at our worst when presidents like Adams jailed newspaper editors for writing criticism to his Embargo meant to keep us from warring with France and England when they harassed our merchant ships, and are at out best when President Jefferson came in and freed them reversing this anti-democratic excess. I never get upset when others disagree with me politically; but I get very alarmed and ready to fight when opponents start talking about wiping out opponents and destroying our collective right to debate and dialog with one another.
In a word, NO! Make that HELL NO!!! Nor would I agree to do that with anyone's son(s) or daughter(s)!! Especially the way we have done since WWII. IMHO, if a conflict justifies committing American troops to harms way, then it justifies a Declaration of War, PERIOD, NO OTHER WAY. Other wise, we stay home. Our nation has spent waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much American Blood and Treasure without a formal Declaration of War. If our political "leaders" want to go into conflict without a formal Declaration of War, then they alone should Load Up, Lock & Load, and jump in fight it themselves. I believe, as George Washington advised, "avoid foreign entanglements"!!! Do not take me wrong. If a foreign nation attacked the U.S., and their troops started "falling out of the sky" my son's and daughter & I would be on site and engage. That situation would justify a Declaration of War, and warrant engagement with the enemy with everything in our arsenal to bring it to a quick end. But short of that, and with no Declaration of War, the U.S. needs to mind it's own business. No American life is worth a BS conflict!! Regards, Stoner
Quoted because it needs to be said over and over and over again until those knuckleheads in Congress understand it.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
I agree 100%
some reich-wing nationalist, some bloodthirsty conservative, some warmongering Republican, some red-state fascist, some neocon, or some theocon beats the drums for war
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#2. To: hondo68 (#1)
What about the left wing neolib warmonger progressives, they somehow get off the hook? They couldn't have done any of it without the dems too. Calling it "humanitarian" or having a Nobel Peace Prize, doesn't make it any better.
#3. To: Fibr Dog (#0)
Would you sacrifice your firstborn son to establish a democracy in country that had a dictatorship?
#4. To: jwpegler (#3)
The real question is: Would you sacrifice your firstborn son in a vain attempt to establish a country where no real country has ever existed before?
#5. To: Fibr Dog (#2)
Notice how all of the anti-war protests completely stopped after their boy took office.
#6. To: Fred Mertz (#5)
#7. To: Ferret Mike, Fred Mertz (#6)
We have a weekly anti-war vigil at the 'old Federal' building on the W7th and Pearl St. corner that never stopped after Obama took office.
#8. To: sneakypete (#7)
#9. To: Ferret Mike (#8)
(Edited)
All I Knew was the danger of Fred's blanket statement. And I know opposing this neocon climate of perpetual war is important to do. Ron Paul has proven more consistent and reliable in showing a commitment to his beliefs than any other candidate and that is going to attract my vote more than someone mouthing a position closer to my personal political paradigm.
#10. To: Ferret Mike (#8)
All I Knew was the danger of Fred's blanket statement.
#11. To: Ferret Mike (#6)
We have a weekly anti-war vigil at the 'old Federal' building on the W7th and Pearl St. corner that never stopped after Obama took office. Just to add some clarity to this comment.
#12. To: Fred Mertz (#10)
No prob. There seems to be a news blackout on whatever anti-war protests there have been out there for around the past 3 years is what I meant to say. That is, excluding OWS and their many grievances.
#13. To: lucysmom (#12)
It took the press awhile to get around to reporting OWS.
#14. To: Fred Mertz (#10)
#15. To: Fibr Dog (#0)
" Would you sacrifice your firstborn son to establish a democracy in country that had a dictatorship? How about giving up your son to effect a regime change? What about exchanging your son to end the oppression of minorities? How about trading your son in return for a country holding elections? "
#16. To: Stoner (#15)
IMHO, if a conflict justifies committing American troops to harms way, then it justifies a Declaration of War, PERIOD, NO OTHER WAY. Other wise, we stay home.
#17. To: Stoner (#15)
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