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Title: Former CIA Interrogator: Painstaking Intelligence Work, Not Torture, Responsible For Bin Laden Capture
Source:
wonkroom.thinkprogress.org
URL Source: http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2011/05/04/torture-bin-laden/
Published: May 12, 2011
Author: Ben Armbruster
Post Date: 2011-05-12 20:37:58 by Ferret Mike
Keywords: None
Views: 8054
Comments: 34
Shortly after President Obama announced that U.S. military forces killed Osama bin Laden, right-wing torture apologists seized the opportunity, stating, without any definitive evidence whatsoever, that information gleaned from torturing Al Qaeda detainees led to bin Laden’s hideout in Pakistan. While reliable sources, such as Senate Intelligence Committee chair Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) said this week that the information did not come from torture (or to use the Bush administration’s term “Enhanced Interrogation Techniques”), at this point it is at best unclear how this information was obtained.
What if a tiny piece of information that led to bin Laden came from torture or EITs? Today, Glenn Carle — who served 23 years in the CIA’s Directorate of Operations and for a time led the interrogation of a high value detainee — told ThinkProgress that if it the answer is yes, the right-wing will use that and say, “See torture works.” While Carle said it’s possible that EITs might provide information, that doesn’t mean they should ever be used:
CARLE: Well I change the tense and say not that they will use that but that they are using that within I think four hours of the announcement that bin Laden’s death.Ultimately you get to an ends means debate. … The ends does not justify the means and you don’t build a policy, in this instance with regard to acceptable legal procedures, based upon the hypothetical, theoretical case which is five or ten standard deviations from the norm which happens one time in 5 million. What you do is you base your policies on an ever-changing calculus of probability likelihood and what is considered liked and works. And the answer to all of those questions should quite clearly exclude EITs. Is it possible that a specific piece of information from time to time would come from EITs? The answer is yes. To be fair the answer is yes. Does it justify using them? A categorical flat no.
Carle also said that during his time at CIA, “almost all the information obtained from EITs was recalled…because it was viewed as unreliable.”
Those on the right justifying torture argue that “harsh techniques played a small role at most in identifying Bin Laden’s trusted courier,” as the New York Times noted this morning. But the initial information on the courier is minuscule in comparison to the wider effort that led to bin Laden. “The critical point,” Carle noted, “is that intelligence is a painstaking slow process of building a mosaic. Little pieces of which are meaningless by themselves and together may paint a useful picture which is what happened in this case.”
When asked if any of the information that led to bin Laden could have been obtained without torture, Carle said, “Yes,” adding, “EITs are wrong, illegal, and they don’t work.” (1 image)
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Bin Laden has been dead for years. Obama should be waterboarded until he admits it.
#2. To: A K A Stone (#1)
Your denial on this point is not my problem.
#3. To: A K A Stone (#1)
Think about it; Bin Laden left brain and bone tissue, blood, hair, skin, all over that room he was pumpkin headed in. You really don't think Pakistan, or China would pass this chance to Analise the DNA and compare it with Bin Laden's file samples that Pakistan would have as a U.S. partner in trying to stem Taliban and other terrorist activities?
You actually think they would pass up and chance to make Obama look bad after he pissed them off with that raid?
We kept samples. they have sample forensic pathology can take and compare to see if it was Bin Laden who died there, and if the cells were damaged from having been frozen which is very obvious when closely examine the tissue.
I say to you, show me the beef. I see nothing from your POV on this but examples of people with agendas posturing.
If it was a false game, the cat would already be out of the bag on it by now.
#4. To: Ferret Mike (#0) (Edited)
I'm a very contextual person. Without context, everything looks like the Pacific Northwest skies -- many shades of grey.
With context, some clear blacks and whites can emerge.
You capture someone who has just planted a nuclear weapon in Manhattan. Your intelligence says this was about to happen. He admits he did it. 10 million people will die within 1 hour. You need to find the weapon. What do you do?
A.) Read him his Constitutional rights?
B.) Water-board him?
C.) Put his testicles in a vice?
You heard a rumor that someone is planning to plant a bomb at the mall. Through a network of hearsay, you close in on someone who may or may not be the suspect. You ask a judge for a search warrant for his apartment. The judge says "no probable cause" and denies the warrant. What do you do?
A.) Drop the case.
B.) Forget the judge, invoke the Patriot Act, and water board him
C.) Keep looking for evidence to build a stronger case
There are no absolutes. It's all contextual.
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#5. To: Ferret Mike (#3)
Think about it; Bin Laden left brain and bone tissue, blood, hair, skin, all over that room he was pumpkin headed in.
Where did you see this at? Who has the samples?
Oh another example of a liberal believing a liberal because its lips was moving.
#6. To: Ferret Mike (#3)
You really don't think Pakistan, or China would pass this chance to Analise the DNA and compare it with Bin Laden's file samples that Pakistan would have as a U.S. partner in trying to stem Taliban and other terrorist activities?
We didn't fly into Pakistan unnoticed. They were likely in on it. Elements in their spooks.
#7. To: Ferret Mike (#3)
You actually think they would pass up and chance to make Obama look bad after he pissed them off with that raid?
They were in on it Mike. They offed some innocent man most likely.
#8. To: Ferret Mike (#3)
We kept samples. they have sample forensic pathology can take and compare to see if it was Bin Laden who died there, and if the cells were damaged from having been frozen which is very obvious when closely examine the tissue.
Where did we get the alleged samples of Bin Ladens DNA? Who took those samples?
Who checked the "body" to see if it was frozen?
Oh more speculation of a liberal believing a liberal because its lips were moving.
#9. To: Ferret Mike (#3)
If it was a false game, the cat would already be out of the bag on it by now.
The cat is out of the bag. But there will always be liberals believing liberals just because it opened its mouth.
#10. To: Ferret Mike (#3)
The evidence to date is nonexistent and wold be laughed out of any court in the nation.
#11. To: Ferret Mike (#0)
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
#12. To: A K A Stone (#5)
"Where did you see this at? Who has the samples?Oh another example of a liberal believing a liberal because its lips was moving."
Don't be pig headed, as you too often are.
They killed Bin Laden in that compound. Thus if this is so then he left a great deal of forensic evidence he was killed there.
According the the account there was plenty of DNA evidence left there.
Back on bozo you go.
#13. To: A K A Stone (#8)
Where did we get the alleged samples of Bin Ladens DNA? Who took those samples?
Family members, his sister died in Boston recently.
"Thats because your basically and idiot."
Badeye posted on 2011-04-29 10:30:22 ET
#14. To: go65 (#13)
The evidence he was killed is overwhelming. I suppose Stone thinks Bin Laden's wifes in custody are fakes too.
I have a firm rule; I don't argue with people who are this irrational. The evidence this happened will stand on it's own long after deathers like Stone have painted themselves in a corner trapped by their own hatred of Barack Obama.
#15. To: Ferret Mike (#14)
Earth 5000 years old and Jesus could have ridden a dinosaur...OF COURSE he believes what no one else believes.
America...My Kind Of Place...
"I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..."
--GW Bush
I was not aware of just how bad the flooding was; thanks for posting.
#16. To: Ferret Mike (#12)
Back on bozo you go.
Cool... I just won $20 thanx to you......
"I love the 45 caliber M1911, I respect the 9MM M9 Beretta but I only carry a CZ for my own personal protection". Quote courtesy of Lt Col John Dean Cooper, recognized as the Father of Modern Handgunning
#17. To: war (#15)
"Earth 5000 years old and Jesus could have ridden a dinosaur...OF COURSE he believes what no one else believes."
Sometimes I wonder if he is annoyed because at times all the voices in his head are arguing with each other. For Stone, things do have to be rational it make sense as long as they seem to give credibility to the notion he has savior faire and a deep insight into things.
Sometimes you can't tell if he needs to be burped, or spanked. So the sane thing is to turn off the little bully he at times tries to be with the kill file aspect of this forum software. If that bothers him, fine. He can turn my account off and then he can go off and pretend he is punishing me in some strange, arcane way.
C'est la guerre, oui?
#18. To: CZ82 (#16)
"Cool... I just won $20 thanx to you...... "
My pleasure, glad to help.
#19. To: no gnu taxes (#11)
#20. To: CZ82 (#16)
"I love the 45 caliber M1911, I respect the 9MM M9 Beretta but I only carry a CZ for my own personal protection". Quote courtesy of Lt Col John Dean Cooper, recognized as the Father of Modern Handgunning"
Those semi-automatic pistols made by eská zbrojovka Uherský Brod (CZUB) in the Czech Republic are quality items that are very nicely machined with quality metals. I like them too. but you don't buy American in firearms?
I like my pistols too, but often I'm on a bicycle and one of my S&W revolvers is a more comfortable hand gun because I have years of experience with it. And it can kill engine blocks.
IF someone uses their car as a weapon against my bicycle, I have to compensate somewhere. ;-D
#21. To: war (#15)
Earth 5000 years old and Jesus could have ridden a dinosaur...OF COURSE he believes what no one else believes.
Hey dumbass. The flood wiped out the dinosaurs. That was many years before christ. FOOL!
#22. To: A K A Stone (#21)
How did the bears, kitty cats and poodles get back to North America?
America...My Kind Of Place...
"I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..."
--GW Bush
I was not aware of just how bad the flooding was; thanks for posting.
#23. To: war (#22)
What is hard to believe is that God allowed anyone with a liberal gene onto the ark.
#24. To: war (#22)
"Hey dumbass. The flood wiped out the dinosaurs."
And it was the Klingon's fault too. They deliberately flooded the lizards out to spoil a big game hunting service the Romulans were running on Earth for some really big amounts of Latinum.
You dummy, have could you be so out of the loop not to know this?
#25. To: Ferret Mike (#20)
Those semi-automatic pistols made by eská zbrojovka Uherský Brod (CZUB) in the Czech Republic are quality items that are very nicely machined with quality metals. I like them too. but you don't buy American in firearms?
Yes I have American made weaponery too.... Some shotguns and rifles....
I decided a few years ago to teach the wife how to shoot for self defense purposes, and decided I would start small with a .22 cal and work her slowly up to bigger calibers.... So I took her out to the local gun shops to see what she felt comfortable holding, irregardless of caliber..... In large calibers she was comfortable handling 1911s and some SigSauers....
So keeping that in mind I let her handle a Ruger 22/45, (.22cal) with a 5.5 inch bull barrel and removable Cocobolo grips (basically a 1911 clone in .22 cal). She loved it, so I bought it and it's her training weapon.
It wasn't long after I bought that one I found a really good deal on some CZ82s, they are 9X18 or 9MM Makarov police/military surplus weapons. So I took her to a gun shop in Cincinnati that had some CZ83s, which are the civilian version of the 82.... they are chambered in 32ACP and 380ACP.... Well needless to say she fell in love with one of them so I went and ordered one of the 82s... I got the gun, holster, 2 ammo pouches, 3 clips and the gun for $290.... It must have been an Officers sidearm cause there is only 1 little nick on the finish and the insides were spotless..... In fact it had never been sighted in properly. I ended up having to get a rear sight 3 sizes taller than the stock one to cure the shooting low problems (it was shooting about 4" low at 10 yds).
And so here about 2 weeks ago I ran across a good deal on SigSauer P220s in SAO, 45cal, so am contemplating getting that one.... It comes with Picatinny rail, checkered aluminum grips (for smaller hands) retention holster and 2-8rd mags all for $649 at a place in Abilene, Tx.... Am waiting for the wife to get back from Vegas before making a final decision on it....
"I love the 45 caliber M1911, I respect the 9MM M9 Beretta but I only carry a CZ for my own personal protection". Quote courtesy of Lt Col John Dean Cooper, recognized as the Father of Modern Handgunning
#26. To: CZ82 (#25)
Good choices. IT has been a while since I bought a new side arm. I was bored when I was at Fort Bragg, N.C. and spent too much on weapons then.
That revolver is actually a nice old stainless steel S&W model 66-2. I was joking about the engine block killing Model 19 of mine as actually something I'd pack in Portland, Oregon.
Had some guys one time a while back try to rush me to remove my expensive bicycle from my possession up there. That made me somewhat crankier that I was before that happened when I'm up there and on a bicycle.
#27. To: Ferret Mike (#26)
Good choices.
Thank You.... I just got done perusing the Ruger website and they just introduced their version of a 1911..... HHHmmmmmm......
www.ruger.com/products/s r1911/models.html
"I love the 45 caliber M1911, I respect the 9MM M9 Beretta but I only carry a CZ for my own personal protection". Quote courtesy of Lt Col John Dean Cooper, recognized as the Father of Modern Handgunning
#28. To: Ferret Mike (#26)
That revolver is actually a nice old stainless steel S&W model 66-2.
Aren't those 357 Magnums????
"I love the 45 caliber M1911, I respect the 9MM M9 Beretta but I only carry a CZ for my own personal protection". Quote courtesy of Lt Col John Dean Cooper, recognized as the Father of Modern Handgunning
#29. To: CZ82 (#28)
Yes indeed, but I don't like to shoot magnum rounds through it. ;-)
The K frame stainless .357s have a reputation for failure with a steady diet of full power loads through it.
#30. To: Ferret Mike (#29)
The K frame stainless .357s have a reputation for failure with a steady diet of full power loads through it.
So what do you use that you can practice with? .38s?
"I love the 45 caliber M1911, I respect the 9MM M9 Beretta but I only carry a CZ for my own personal protection". Quote courtesy of Lt Col John Dean Cooper, recognized as the Father of Modern Handgunning
#31. To: CZ82 (#30)
I load 38 rounds for it which I use for target practice, and store bought 38 rounds when I load it to carry it and possibly have to use it. I also use speed loaders which is not going to get rounds out as fast as a semi-automatic pistol, but I have no desire to be in a protracted gun fight anyway.
I believe in suppressive fire that helps me move quickly away from the problem person(s).
If I am in the forest alone and have only a handgun I take the glock which is actually my newest piece. And I got that quite a while ago.
In a place like Portland or another city I believe my best defense is to always be aware of my surroundings and the people near me.
In a more rural setting it never hurts to have more ammunition at hand to help you get to safety.
The only other time I'm armed in the forest is when I bow hunt, and the pistol comes along with me then too.
#32. To: jwpegler (#4)
With context, some clear blacks and whites can emerge.You capture someone who has just planted a nuclear weapon in Manhattan. Your intelligence says this was about to happen. He admits he did it. 10 million people will die within 1 hour. You need to find the weapon. What do you do?
Only on TV is waterboarding, going to yield information leading to discovery and disarming of a nuclear bomb saving the lives of 10 million people - all within an hour.
The Republican budget goes after children and the poor. Courage would be going after defense and the rich. Bill Maher
#33. To: jwpegler (#4)
You heard a rumor that someone is planning to plant a bomb at the mall. Through a network of hearsay, you close in on someone who may or may not be the suspect. You ask a judge for a search warrant for his apartment. The judge says "no probable cause" and denies the warrant. What do you do?A.) Drop the case. B.) Forget the judge, invoke the Patriot Act, and water board him C.) Keep looking for evidence to build a stronger case There are no absolutes. It's all contextual.
Of course if waterboarding doesn't work, you're wasting precious time. If you're a Republican, I guess it does make you feel better though.
The Republican budget goes after children and the poor. Courage would be going after defense and the rich. Bill Maher
#34. To: lucysmom (#33)
The answer is always C.
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
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