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Title: Matthew Chapter 24
Source:
God
URL Source: [None]
Published: Mar 1, 2011
Author: God
Post Date: 2011-03-01 07:35:56 by A K A Stone
Keywords: end times, last days, jesus
Views: 70616
Comments: 74
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Note 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Poster Comment: This chapter is for your edification. This thread is for serious discussion of this chapter. No blasphemy or personal attacks will be permitted. Serious discussion and questoins as always are permitted.
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#1. To: A K A Stone (#0)
Many think that Christ was/is a purely one-dimensional being - someone who went around healing and preaching "peace" and "love." This certainly reveals a different side of Him, doesn't it? Of all the prophecies contained therein - ones that seem to describe our present age to a "T" - the one I most take to heart is contained in verse 24. The single word that best describes the time we live in is "deception." My prayer is that I do not find myself deceived.
"If you're 20 and not a liberal, you have no heart. It you're 40 and not a conservative, you have no brain." Protestants.....especially the American ones......
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
Deception takes many forms. I don't know what your issue is with American protestants, but keep in mind that some of Christ's harshest words were directed toward the establishment religion (and its adherants) of His day. Unfortunately, hypocrites are found in all relgions - American protestantism included. If one is to truly go to the next step, he/she must let Christ reform their heart. It begins inwardly, then works outward. Only then can one be considered His child.
"If you're 20 and not a liberal, you have no heart. It you're 40 and not a conservative, you have no brain." They are the ones pushing end time scenarios and in many cases using those fabricated end times scenarios to lobby politicians.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
I have a slightly slanted view of God's child that I would like to share. I believe that we are all God's children, but some of his children deny and reject him. God's love is a free gift for anyone and everyone. It is our choice to acknowledge him as Father, but he is Father to all, nevertheless. If we obey and seek, he will give us abundant life and fill us with his light as his chosen and favored children. If we deny him, we live as his child in darkness. That is our choice- God never forces himself in. It is torment to deny the love of a parent who has done nothing at all wrong, and has only wanted the best for us. And so those who feel that love and reject it,are tormented souls. I don't want that torment.
Your lucky we stopped burning heretics........
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
Your secular liberal Democrats do the same with commie end times scenarios such as global warming, overpopulation, radical environmentalism etc. You believe the devil's counterfeit of the truth.
Well, [war's] got to do something for attention, his multiple personalities aren't speaking to him any more, and his imaginary friends keep finding excuses not to come over.
They are the ones pushing end time scenarios and in many cases using those fabricated end times scenarios to lobby politicians. That is a fair criticism. Sadly, in many ways we've become a cartoon (the rabid "radical right") - nothing more than a special interest group to be assuaged by corrupt politicans. While we are called to be "salt" and "light" to the world, we should keep everything in perspective and be careful to remember that ultimately Christ's Kingdom is "not of this world."
"If you're 20 and not a liberal, you have no heart. It you're 40 and not a conservative, you have no brain." Communists are industrialists. They are not environmentalists. The environmentalist movement was part of the luddite conservative movement - If you read Lord Of the Rings, the evil ones are industrialists who turn their back on the old ways of the shire and living in harmony with trees, etc. But, I have always assumed the word "commie" lost all meaning to the degenerate American right wing and is now just a slang word to identify an enemy like calling them "gooks". With that said, You have the end time kooks preaching made up fantasies (in direct defiance of the Bible's claim you can't predict the events) and the other side is based on observational science and analysis and interpretation of data. I will go with the scientists over some lunatic from the Bible Belt.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
Well all I can tell you is that each day God has shown his grace to me in ways that can only be describe as miracles, and that favor does not seem to have an end in sight. So reject that testimony if you must, but, I wouldn't want to be you when the end times come. That's all I can offer. Best Wishes.
That is the central "if" Those five words sum up what should be our life's goal
"If you're 20 and not a liberal, you have no heart. It you're 40 and not a conservative, you have no brain." I remember reading a posting on one of those end time web pages by a woman. In it she discussed an upcoming nuclear treaty with Russia and she wrote that since she knew for certain that Russia was part of the anti-christ's forces (the whole gog-magog lunacy) that Americans should be hostile to any peace offerings from Russia because they are destined to be the bad guy anyway so why bother. Imagine basing diplomatic relations on this basis? Hal Lindsey stated that the EU was the empire of the anti-Christ. If Hal Lindsey's view held sway imagine the damage done if we had a president who viewed western Europe as the land of the anti- christ? And that notion came out in the 70s I think so at the height of the Cold War. Insanity.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
The purpose of the Bible is for the individual reader to take it upon themselves to take Jesus's teachings to their own heart and put them to actual practice in their own life. Not the do as I say stuff of many of it's most popular rock star like teachers. Christians as a whole have strayed from that and appear to be suffering the consequences. And for this statement Christians that can quote the Bible from end to end will stone me.
"http://first-draft-blog.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c5ced53ef0148c7a28c4b970c-320wi"
Yes. Exactly. :) I agree. And truthfully, doing anything other, in my life is cold and empty. Sure I have had times in my life when I was not seeking, and I was not listening, and God removed his favor from me. I have been in a place for some years now, back in the fold with my Father - that I can't imagine why anyone chooses NOT to seek him. I seek him in everything, and that has made all the difference in my life. I will never go back to that dark place.
God would not reveal himself to heretics who make up their own biblical dogmas.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
Well, I am not sure how you are going to rectify what you believe with what I am telling you- but God is never apart from me. He shows himself 24/7/365 I am his beloved child and a part of his royal plan. God had never forsaken me, and I have received everything I have prayed for and more. I am never alone. People who I pray for are uplifted and all of my family have been favored. And that has been going on for me, save a few years when I was being stubborn, since I accepted Christ at the age of 5. My life has been full or things that could kill people and make them sick- and I have escaped with a joyful heart and a rich life. I also have spiritual mentors, people I serve with on various ministries, a pastor, friends and plenty of authors of books, who are all in alignment with my concept of God. So.. yeah.. You may wish you examine why you think my testimony is untrue.
Because after all you say happened to you, you still have an enormous ego?
"http://first-draft-blog.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c5ced53ef0148c7a28c4b970c-320wi"
Well technically it is called self esteem. :) My ego is perfectly balanced, thank you. And yes, I do have healthy self esteem. People seem to notice that, and those who have weak self esteem are very frightened when they see health and strength in someone else. I believe that is the care here. Why would I not have healthy self esteem? Why should I not? I will gladly help anyone find what I have found. I worked hard to get here, thru all sorts of horrible abuses, and depression and even being suicidal. Now- I am cherished and loved and cared for every moment of the day. THAT will give anyone a healthy self esteem! Now I am healthy in mind spirit, mind and body and have the most amazing life- with friends, family and more goods and comfort than I can use. WHO would not leap for joy? Who would not share that good news? :)
I really don't remember self esteem being mentioned in the Bible, but I remember lots of mention of humility and humbleness. Stuff like that.
"http://first-draft-blog.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c5ced53ef0148c7a28c4b970c-320wi"
Well then, thank you for admitting that you do not know or understand the Bible. That goes along way. If you seek understanding about healthy self esteem and positive self image, you will find everything you need to know about it, in the Bible. :) Indeed it is in there. Keep looking. You can start with these three pages: http://www.joycemeyer.org/NR/rdonlyres/46AA1300-F37A-41C5-963A- CB5FEAA07218/0/whoiam.pdf%22 **I have the Greater One living in me; greater is He Who is in me than he who is in the world (I John 4:4). **I am far from oppression, and fear does not come near me (Isaiah 54:14). **I am a doer of the Word and blessed in my actions (James 1:22,25). It is wonderful reading. Enjoy!
I don't believe having an opinion on end-time events is a definition of insanity. After all, the world (at least as we perceive it) IS going to come to an end at some point. Whether you believe it will end in 5 days. Or 5 months. Or 5 million (or Billion) years. It becomes problematic when you take it to the next step and proclaim you KNOW when and how it's going to end. Because when you do that, you're doing something that even the Lord Himself was reluctant to do ("I know not the day nor the hour, only the Father . . . ") There was something called "dominion theology" a while back - I think its influence has faded. Pat Robertson was an adherant. I'm not an expert, but I think DT said that we could "usher in" God's Kingdom by influencing events and political instuttions of this world. Without commenting on Robertson specifically, I will say I disagree with DT. When all is said and done, I will endeavor to follow Christ and His example. (not mortals like Robertson).
"If you're 20 and not a liberal, you have no heart. It you're 40 and not a conservative, you have no brain." A quote of Jesus's mentioning self esteem in the Bible would have been sufficient. His disciples to the end seemed to have very little in the way of positive self esteem, as most seemed to be fighting self doubt yet they are held up as examples we should try to emulate.
"http://first-draft-blog.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c5ced53ef0148c7a28c4b970c-320wi"
Self self esteem is a sin same as self pride. Pride comes before the fall.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
What I was calling insane was people using whatever pet theory you have about the end times as a basis for creating foreign policies.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
It is my understanding and beliefs that Scripture talks about two different events: the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ. I believe that Chapter 24 refers to the end days after the Rapture of the Church. This chapter talks about those in Judea fleeing to the mountains, for instance. After the Rapture of the Church, God will turn his attention to the salvation of Israel, which He has turned away from during the time of the the Church. After the Rapture, the Church will be with God and will not face the Great Tribulation.
Just a question, and then a comment: Do you see the USA mentioned anywhere in Scripture? Even obliquely? As to the Rapture of the Church - I've heard it said that that belief came about rather recently (in millennial terms). In about 1830 or there abouts.
"If you're 20 and not a liberal, you have no heart. It you're 40 and not a conservative, you have no brain." The USA isn't mentioned at all in Scripture. The verses that talk about the Rapture have been there for the last two thousand years. Look over this material and see what you think. http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?70788-The-Rapture-of-the-Church There is also an interesting thread about Matthew 24 on this site. http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?138146-Matthew-24-The-discourse-continues- *Merged*
I believe that the USA is in Biblical Prophecy.
Oh ye of little faith. Self esteem isn't pride. You have so much to learn about God and God's love. I hope you figure it all out before you expire, because that will be the best thing that could possibly happen for you.
The "rapture", as described in the 'Left Behind' books, was not part of Christian theology until the mid 1800s. It is a heretical.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
Learn English. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/self-esteem self-es·teem (slf-stm) n. Pride in oneself; self-respect. Self-esteem n 1. respect for or a favourable opinion of oneself 2. an unduly high opinion of oneself; vanity Vanity of vanities, all is vanity. Ecclesiastes 1:2
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
You are kidding, right? LOL- God is bigger than Webster. God has not given me any indication at all that he wants me to submit or humble myself to you, to Webster-or anyone else here. When he tells me to follow something or someone- I KNOW about it! Trust me. I have learned to obey God. I gratefully worship a loving, benevolent God of grace and mercy. He loves me, and is happy that I shine so bright for Him. He loves me so much that he saved me more than once. He has blessed me with the fruits of the spirit and fellowship with other people who shine for him, and more riches than I need- (so I give them away- he gives me more). He has given me a spiritual gift that gets stronger and stronger, the more I walk in faith of Him. I have never been forsaken by God, so I think I am doing pretty well. I don't answer to you or to your dictionary. lol. I am not afraid of your mockery. God is not a god of fear. I have no fear of anything, other than having reverence for his perfect greatness- thus, I have a very strong self esteem- just as it was planned for me to have. He loves it when his children are walking in his light. :) Anyone can walk this way with me- if they so choose. :)
Then you are not a Christian: Philippians 2:3-8 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death – even death on a cross!
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
Well I was born the child of God, and I was saved and reborn by the grace of God. Christ has bestowed numerous gifts on me, answered all of my prayers- increased favor upon me, and my family and all who I pray for. He has saved me from a life of darkness and death, he has provided everything he said he would provide for me. I want nothing in my life. My cup overflows, and I know everything I am and I have comes from God. He hasn't held anything back. He has given me a richer life than I had ever imagined, and he continues to grow my spiritual gift to one of great power, that other people seek out and respect. I have been able to lead other people to Christ, who have then beaten addiction and some have been able to break the bondage of crime, and he has given me a passion to serve people, that benefits me daily. I have deep joy in my life- and I see God in everything, everywhere I go, and I am paired with other people who feel the same way. And he makes his face to shine upon me day and night, never leaving my side and always helping me see the right direction to go. And you want to tell me I am not a Christian? Seriously?? Who should I believe, you or God?
Yes.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
Sounds like you have a grievance with God, because he calls me his beloved, saved, child~ and he rains down love, blessings and acceptance upon me. You might want to take your findings and rebuke of me to the man upstairs. Because you don't seem to be hearing what I am telling you. Best of luck with that. :)
Thanks for these. I'll check them out, and get back to you later.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________ You ain't God or his chosen one.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
Well, it sounds like you know all the right things to say, but every time I meet someone saying the stuff you do it turns out they're full of it. Not saying you are, but it seems like it from your postings, lol. Work on that, okay?
------------------------------------- Well actually I am- there is no doubt about it. John 15:16 I have been chosen and appointed to bear fruit. Anyone who seeks God, is chosen by God and is his chosen one.
Yea, you are fruit loops.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
Jesus didn't annoy the shit out of people. Work on that, okay?
------------------------------------- Oh yes he did. And still does.
;) heh. It is true. The spirits of anger and greed and lust and envy and spite- and hatred and negetivity, always get restless when Jesus is in the house.
Up until the Reformation, the worship of God was tightly controlled by the Roman Catholic Church. The various councils and Popes told the people what they should believe. Until the Reformation, Bibles were largely written in Latin which only the "educated" could read. When people were freed by the Reformation and Bibles were written in language the people could read, they could see for themselfs what the Scriptures said. It isn't strange that understanding of Scripture increased after the Reformation. As I mentioned above, the Scripture under which the news about the Rapture became prominent later. Can you tell me why, using Scripture, the Rapture is false teaching, and just how it is heresy? Here is the definition of heresy. Go for it. Heresy, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, is a "theological or religious opinion or doctrine maintained in opposition, or held to be contrary, to the ‘catholic’ or orthodox doctrine of the Christian Church, or, by extension, to that of any church, creed, or religious system, considered as orthodox. By extension, [heresy is an] opinion or doctrine in philosophy, politics, science, art, etc., at variance with those generally accepted as authoritative." http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Heresy
No way, he didn't annoy the run of the mill guy. That's why there were crowds in the thousands. Some people didn't like him, I'm sure but I doubt they would have described him as annoying. That'd be the first thing most people mention about DBR. She should work on that.
------------------------------------- DELETED OFF TOPIC (NO PERSONAL ATTACKS ON THIS THREAD)
One thing that people always comment upon to me, is how little mockery sways me from my commitment to God, to be exactly who he has made me to be . That is because "I have the peace of God that passes all understanding." (Philippians 4:7). I am good with that. Your opinion means nothing to me, because I exist to please God, not you. Now, THAT is true freedom in Christ. I hope others will try it. Anyone who is reading, who is interested can google *Neil Anderson* Freedom in Christ. It is a great place to start a journey to healthy and Biblical self esteem.
That's laughable since the Eastern Christian Churches predate the arrival of Peter to Rome and the setting up of that church. The Ethiopian, Coptic, Armenian, Arabic (many Arabs were Christians before Islam), Nestorian, Thomasian (Indian Chruch), Syrian, Assyrian, Greek all predate the Latin church's foundation and not one of these independent churches ever heard of the rapture till some idiot Protestant came along in the mid 1800s where he discerned something all the Church fathers missed (who spoke and wrote in the original language of the New Testament). Protestant pastor, John L. Gray, summarized what most other Christians believe about the Rapture when he wrote: Though many believe and teach this “Pre-Tribulation Rapture” theory, they erroneously do so, because neither Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, nor any of the other writers of the Bible taught this. Nor did the early church fathers, nor any others for many hundreds of years…. Did you know that NONE of this was ever taught prior to 1812, and that all forms of Pre-Tribulation Rapture teaching were developed since that date? …. If I were to preach something, or believe something, supposedly from the Bible, but cannot find that ANYONE ELSE before 1812 ever believed it or taught it, I would seriously question that it is based on the Bible. Thus the Rapture is foreign to the Bible and to the living tradition of the Church. It is what we call a heresy, a false teaching. False teachings, such as this, happen when people—like John Darby—believe that they have the right to interpret the Scriptures individually apart from the Living Body of Christ—the Church—where the Spirit of Truth abides and leads us to all truth.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
The religious opinions of heretics is meaningless to me.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
The saying is, 'Make like a tree and leave, moron.' It's a pun on leaving. (I know, I know, I saw the movie; I just couldn't resist posting this.)
I would agree with you that he didn't annoy people simply for the sake of annoying them. He did speak the truth which annoyed some people though.
Well, the RCC also twisted Scripture to make Peter the foundation stone of their Church. I really don't expect much of their theology. If those "idiot Protestants" hadn't come along, we would all be bowing before statues of Mary and the other "saints."
Who is Pastor John L. Gray?
Actually you are obsessed with these ideas and what I think, that is pretty obvious. You could have been nice and asked instead of attacked. Anyway- on the topic of a healthy self esteem, look at this book:http://www.amazon.com/Overcoming-Negative-Self-Image-Victory- Darkness/dp/0830732535 and here is his ministry: http://www.ficm.org/newsite/index.php
If it was not for the Greeks who predated the Latin Christians we would be reading the Gospel of Mary as part of the New Testament and not one of those early church fathers - all who predate the importance of Rome - mention the "Left Behind" rapture. That's why I laugh at these "the Pope" did it conspiracy theories because the pope in Rome had no sway over the early church. The Alexandrian church was much more influential at that time.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
I called out your Christian heresy - that is all. Self esteem is not part of Christian dogma. With that said, you are free to mix up or create on your own any belief system you want.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
She's way ahead of you, dude.
------------------------------------- You might be interested in more information about the beginning of the Roman Catholic Church and its influence over what believers were to believe about Christianity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church
To believe that you have to think that man is more powerful than God. What God wanted in the Bible is in it.
Christians felt that the decisions of the ecumenical councils were influenced by the Holy Spirit. Protestants of course are a movement that arose outside of the traditional Christian system by people - mostly northern Germanics - who were not part of the holy land of Jesus era nor were they comprised of people who came from the same stock as the early Christians did. Don, there are churches outside of the Roman world that predate the Roman church's founding like the Coptic church or the Armenian churches or the Assyrian churches and the Greek churches and none of these have ever heard of this "Left Behind" Rapture stuff until some Anglo-Protestants came up with it a couple of centuries ago. To original Christian churches that predate the Latins and the Protestants this rapture stuff is laughable because its a bad translation of the original Greek.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
I haven't read all of the early church fathers, but it seems that the idea of the Rapture of the Church wasn't totally foreign to them. I'm sure that you know about 1 Cor. 15:51-53 and 1 Thess, 4:16-18, which plainly teach about the Rapture so I won't bore you with them. You have probably already read data from the below listed early Church Fathers, but I will post them anyway from a source on the Internet. • Shepard 150 AD • The writer, after escaping a huge terrifying beast with four colors on its head (white, red, black and gold), met a virgin in his vision. "like a bride going froth from a bride-chamber, all in white...I recognized from the former visions that it was the church." the virgin explained that she escaped destruction from the beast (the Great Tribulation) because of God's special deliverance. "Thou hast escaped a great tribulation because thou hast believed and at the sight of such a huge beast hast not doubted. Go therefore and declare to the Elect of the Lord His mighty deeds and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation which is to come. If ye therefore prepare yourselves and with your whole heart turn to the Lord in repentance, then shall ye be able to escape it, if your heart is pure and blameless." After explaining to him that "the golden color stands for you who have escaped from this world," the virgin concluded her messages with, "Now ye know the symbol of the great tribulation to come. But if ye are willing, it shall be nothing." • Victorinus 240AD • Commentary on the Apocalypse 6.14 - "'And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.' For the heaven to be rolled way, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. "And the mountain and the islands were moved from their places." Mountains and islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid the persecution." • Commentary on the Apocalypse 15.1 - "And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.' For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst." • Cyprian 250 AD • Epistle 55 - The Antichrist is coming, but above him comes Christ also. The enemy goeth about and rageth, but immediately the Lord follows to avenge our suffering and our wounds. The adversary is enraged and threatens, but there is One who can deliver us from his hands." It is significant that he did not write about enduring the persecution of the Antichrist. Rather, Cyprian promised that Christ "is One who can deliver us from his hands." • Cyprian Speaking of the immanency of the Rapture, he wrote, "Who would not crave to be changed and transformed into the likeness of Christ and to arrive more quickly to the dignity of heavenly glory." After telling his readers that the coming resurrection was the hope of the Christian, he points out that the Rapture should motivate us as we see the last days approaching. Cyprian says that "we who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible." Referring to his hope of the approaching Rapture, he encouraged his readers as follows: "Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent?" Cyprian concludes his comments on the translation of the saints with these words: "Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world, and restores us to paradise and the kingdom" (Treatises of Cyprian - 21 to 26?). • Ephraim the Syrian 373 AD • On The Last Times 2 - ...because all saints and the elect of the LORD are gathered together before the Tribulation which is about to come and be taken to the LORD... http://biblefacts.org/history/subject/rapt.html Would you say that it is a good understanding of the below verses that these Christians will be taken from the Earth before the Tribulation? Rev 3:10 Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. Who are the ones clothed in white linen in the below verse? Is it not those who have been redeemed from the Earth who accompany Christ and His angels? Rev 19:14 And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure.
The Rapture is the church taken up before the tribulations and thus spared the anti-christ's persecutions. That is not even close to what the Church Fathers ever wrote. It's an attempt - poor one at that - to manufacture a pedigree for this latter day heresy. And by the way, the people that first mentioned this 'rapture" when they write about clearly say that they found a new interpretation of scripture.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
Could we have a source for that new interpretation thing? Have you found out who Pastor Gray is yet?
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/cathouse/darby.htm
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
You are entitled to your opinion. Since God himself, does not agree with your opinion, it really doesn't matter to me what you think. Self esteem has EVERYTHING to do with Christianity, according to Christ- I have shown that plenty of times- that it is spelled out right in the Gospels. You can believe whatever you want to believe, but that isn't going to change the Bible.
Nothing in the New Testament mentions Jesus bucking up your self esteem. In fact the example Jesus wants us to follow is where Mary the prostitute washed Jesus' feet and dried it with her hair. Not exactly esteem building behavior.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
The entire story of salvation is one of self esteem. Low self esteem is sinful. It is sad to me that you miss the very rich love that Jesus would shine upon you. I can't force you to receive it or understand, anymore than God himself would force himself upon you. I can only pray that you will figure it out. As of yet- you have demonstrated that you don't understand the basics. You may want to start there and see where that will take you: A) Accept that Chirst died on the cross for your sin.
I use the King James Bible. I find it trustworthy. I would go look in the version you are using and look how the King James said it. I think that is more accurate. I can see how having to much self esteem and thinking you are to good could be considered the same as pride.
Pride is not self esteem. Low self esteem is a sin. I have posted a number of links already.
Your referenced article comes down hard on Dispensationalism, yet, I cannot find anything in Dispensationalism that cannot be supported by Scripture. The same applies to the Rapture of the Church. The article states that Schofield believed that the Lord's Prayer shouldn't be prayed by Christians as it was intended solely for the Jews? I found the Schofield notes online and I couldn't find anything in those notes on the Lord's Prayer that even hinted at such a belief.
Here is the problem - YOU FIND. Church Fathers found no such thing. You have nothing in common with those Greek, Coptic, Armenian and Aramaic churches from the Middle East, Egypt and Anatolia/Ballans that founded the Christian faith.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
I don't need to have anything in common with those people to read Scripture myself and read what others say about it. What do people today have in common with those who lived two centuries ago except for the common things of humanity?
~Winston Churchill
#2. To: Ignore Amos, A K A Stone (#1)
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
#3. To: Godwinson (#2)
Protestants.....especially the American ones......
~Winston Churchill
#4. To: Ignore Amos (#3)
I don't know what your issue is with American protestants,
#5. To: Ignore Amos (#3)
#6. To: diva betsy ross, Ignore Amos (#5)
I have a slightly slanted view of God's child that I would like to share.
#7. To: Godwinson (#4)
They are the ones pushing end time scenarios and in many cases using those fabricated end times scenarios to lobby politicians.
#8. To: Godwinson (#4)
I don't know what your issue is with American protestants,
~Winston Churchill
#9. To: Rudgear (#7)
Your secular liberal Democrats do the same with commie end times scenarios such as global warming, overpopulation, radical environmentalism etc. You believe the devil's counterfeit of the truth.
#10. To: Godwinson (#6)
#11. To: diva betsy ross (#5)
If we obey and seek
~Winston Churchill
#12. To: Ignore Amos (#8)
#13. To: A K A Stone (#0)
(Edited)
#14. To: Ignore Amos (#11)
#15. To: diva betsy ross (#10)
Well all I can tell you is that each day God has shown his grace to me in ways that can only be describe as miracles, and that favor does not seem to have an end in sight. So reject that testimony if you must, but, I wouldn't want to be you when the end times come.
#16. To: Godwinson (#15)
#17. To: diva betsy ross (#16)
You may wish you examine why you think my testimony is untrue.
#18. To: Rek (#17)
#19. To: diva betsy ross (#18)
Well technically it is called self esteem. :) My ego is perfectly balanced, thank you.
#20. To: Rek (#19)
#21. To: Godwinson (#12)
Insanity.
~Winston Churchill
#22. To: diva betsy ross (#20)
Well then, thank you for admitting that you do not know or understand the Bible. That goes along way.
#23. To: diva betsy ross, Rek (#20)
#24. To: Ignore Amos (#21)
I don't believe having an opinion on end-time events is a definition of insanity.
#25. To: A K A Stone (#0)
#26. To: Don (#25)
~Winston Churchill
#27. To: Ignore Amos (#26)
#28. To: Ignore Amos (#26)
#29. To: Godwinson (#23)
(Edited)
#30. To: Don, Ignore Amos (#27)
The verses that talk about the Rapture have been there for the last two thousand years. Look over this material and see what you think.
#31. To: diva betsy ross, Rek (#29)
Oh ye of little faith. Self esteem isn't pride. You have so much to learn about God and God's love. I hope you figure it all out before you expire, because that will be the best thing that could possibly happen for you.
#32. To: Godwinson (#31)
(Edited)
#33. To: diva betsy ross, Rek (#32)
God has not given me any indication at all that he wants me to submit or humble myself to you,
#34. To: Godwinson (#33)
#35. To: diva betsy ross (#34)
And you want to tell me I am not a Christian?
#36. To: Godwinson (#35)
#37. To: Don (#27)
"If you're 20 and not a liberal, you have no heart. It you're 40 and not a conservative, you have no brain."
~Winston Churchill
#38. To: diva betsy ross (#36)
(Edited)
Sounds like you have a grievance with God
#39. To: diva betsy ross (#34)
Why don't you make like a tree and get out of here?
#40. To: Godwinson (#38)
#41. To: diva betsy ross (#40)
have been chosen and appointed to bear fruit.
#42. To: diva betsy ross (#40)
Why don't you make like a tree and get out of here?
#43. To: Biff Tannen (#42)
Jesus didn't annoy the shit out of people.
#44. To: A K A Stone (#43)
#45. To: Godwinson (#30)
#46. To: A K A Stone (#43)
Why don't you make like a tree and get out of here?
#47. To: A K A Stone (#43)
#48. To: Godwinson (#41)
#49. To: Don (#45)
(Edited)
Up until the Reformation, the worship of God was tightly controlled by the Roman Catholic Church.
#50. To: diva betsy ross (#48)
Your opinion means nothing to me,
#51. To: Biff Tannen (#46)
#52. To: Biff Tannen (#46)
#53. To: A K A Stone (#43)
#54. To: Godwinson (#49)
There were quite a few false teachings in the Church at that time. Paul and others wrote about false teachers in the Church. Paul wrote about the Rapture. Paul was a Founding Father of the Church who had a face to face with God. Was Paul wrong?
#55. To: Godwinson (#49)
#56. To: Godwinson (#50)
#57. To: Don (#54)
(Edited)
#58. To: diva betsy ross (#56)
#59. To: Godwinson (#58)
you are free to mix up or create on your own any belief system you want.
Why don't you make like a tree and get out of here?
#60. To: Godwinson (#57)
(Edited)
#61. To: Godwinson (#57)
If it was not for the Greeks who predated the Latin Christians we would be reading the Gospel of Mary as part of the New Testament and not one of those early church fathers
#62. To: A K A Stone, Don (#61)
To believe that you have to think that man is more powerful than God. What God wanted in the Bible is in it.
#63. To: Godwinson (#62)
#64. To: Don (#63)
(Edited)
#65. To: Godwinson (#64)
#66. To: Don (#65)
#67. To: Godwinson (#58)
#68. To: diva betsy ross (#67)
Self esteem has EVERYTHING to do with Christianity, according to Christ-
#69. To: Godwinson (#68)
(Edited)
#70. To: diva betsy ross, Godwinson (#69)
#71. To: A K A Stone (#70)
#72. To: Godwinson (#66)
#73. To: Don (#72)
yet, I cannot find anything in Dispensationalism that cannot be supported by Scripture. The same applies to the Rapture of the Church.
#74. To: Godwinson (#73)
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