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Title: Healthcare Reality Check
Source:
Dissenting Opinions
URL Source: http://jwpegler.blogspot.com/2011/01/healthcare-reality-check.html
Published: Jan 23, 2011
Author: jwpegler
Post Date: 2011-01-23 14:48:24 by jwpegler
Keywords: None
Views: 41112
Comments: 52
The GOP House has voted to overturn the huge mess known as Obamacare. We'll see if it passes the Senate. Regardless, President Obama is not going to sign. So, the GOP is already starting work on replacing Obamacare with their own ideas.
What should the GOP propose? There are two countries that can guide us.
Switzerland undoubtedly has the best healthcare system in Europe. Singapore has the best healthcare system in the world. Switzerland spends about 10.8% of GDP on healthcare. Singapore spends less than 4%. Healthcare expenditures in the U.S. have ballooned to a whopping 16.5% of GDP.
Neither Switzerland or Singapore have "socialist" or "single payer" systems that enchant the know-nothings on the American left. In fact, public expenditures on healthcare as a percentage of the total is about the same in Switzerland and the U.S. The government spends a much lower percentage of the total in Singapore:
Switzerland -- 55% United States -- 50% average, depending on the state Singapore -- 34%
Why do their systems work to control and costs and ours doesn't? Singapore and Switzerland have similar philosophies -- they put people in charge of their own care, but they also require them to take responsibility.
In Singapore you are required to save 8% of you income for healthcare. You can use your health savings to buy insurance and pay for out-of-pocket expenses. The government subsidizes health savings for very low income people.
In Switzerland you are required to spend 8% of your own money on health insurance. The government subsidizes insurance payments for very low income people. Out of pocket expenses are additional.
Switzerland and Singapore have created nation's of healthcare shoppers, who use their own healthcare dollars wisely.
The problem in the U.S. is that Medicare, Medicaid, and employer paid insurance take financial responsibility away from individuals so people don't have any incentive to use medical services in a cost effective way.
I've been to Singapore. They have a great and very cost effective healthcare system. It cheaper than ours. They also have better outcomes than we do. ditto for Switzerland.
The answer to escalating healthcare costs in the U.S. is not to give more control to power hungry politicians and greedy bureaucrats. The answer is personal responsibility and personal control. Singapore and Switzerland have shown us the way. Are American politicians smart enough to follow? We'll see.
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#1. To: Capitalist Eric, go65, Happy Quanzaa, Godwinson, no gnu taxes, Rudgear (#0)
PING
"It's very important to remember the law is not simply what powerful people would want others to believe it is." -- Julian Assange
#2. To: jwpegler (#0)
What should the GOP propose?
How about the Damn Politicians just get their noee the Hell out of it and let DOCTORS do what they do best, hell Congress could not run a lemonade stand if you gave them the lemons, sugar and ice.....
#3. To: jwpegler, Capitalist Eric, go65, Happy Quanzaa, no gnu taxes, Rudgear (#1)
In Switzerland you are required to spend 8% of your own money on health insurance. The government subsidizes insurance payments for very low income people. Out of pocket expenses are additional.
That is pretty much the same system all of Europe uses - give or take. It is the American system that is now called Obamacare as well.
A mix of private and public. Which you GOP zombies call "socialist".
The British system is in fact more socialist than most of Europe's and they still get better results than the current American model.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
#4. To: jwpegler (#0)
One important factor wasn't mentioned: illegal migrants. Neither Switzerland or Singapore have governments that actually encourage criminals to overflow their borders and drain the public purse to the detriment of the native citizens. Until the invasion of these hostiles is turned back, either model is moot as far as I can see.
Well, [war's] got to do something for attention, his multiple personalities aren't speaking to him any more, and his imaginary friends keep finding excuses not to come over.
#5. To: Rudgear (#4)
One important factor wasn't mentioned: illegal migrants. Neither Switzerland or Singapore have governments that actually encourage criminals to overflow their borders and drain the public purse to the detriment of the native citizens. Until the invasion of these hostiles is turned back, either model is moot as far as I can see.
It is the rich guys that like to hire low wage docile-cause-they're-intimidated workers that encourage loose border enforcement - the same guys that claim they deserve low, low tax rates.
They pay low wages, don't provide benefits like health insurance, and transfer the cost of their illegal employee's health care to the middle class by encouraging sick workers to use ers.
Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains. Thomas Jefferson
#6. To: lucysmom (#5)
Buying people in job lots is possible only because of their illegal status and the Feds looking the other way. Illegals are criminals because they broke the law to get here because we are the only country with zero border enforcement. They consume public services and do not pay tax. If they want to be here, let them do it legally.
Well, [war's] got to do something for attention, his multiple personalities aren't speaking to him any more, and his imaginary friends keep finding excuses not to come over.
#7. To: Godwinson (#3) (Edited)
That is pretty much the same system all of Europe uses - give or take
Nope, Europe has several different systems. In addition to Switzerland:
France has occupation-based health pools that provide basic insurance funded though a 13% payroll tax. There is an additional 5.5% payroll tax to subsidize the poor. They keep costs down through high copays (10% to 40% of fees). 92% of the population also buy their own supplemental insurance. Almost all healthcare delivery is done through private hospitals and clinics.
The U.K. has a single payer health system, plus almost all doctors and nurses are government employees. There is very little physician choice. There are no deductibles and copays. Waiting lists are a huge problem. Only 10% of the population has private insurance.
Spain and Italy have similar systems to the U.K. Italy's is more decentralized and offers a little more patient choice. Spain's is more centralized and patients have no choice in selecting a physician -- the government assigns them a primary care physician and they cannot change doctors, unless they have private insurance (about 12% do) Waiting lists are a huge issue in Spain as well.
In Germany, low income residents are required to buy into government "sickness funds" (health pools). They are funded by a 15% payroll tax. Everyone else can choose between a government sickness fund or private insurance. There is a mix of private and public health delivery.
All of these systems are very different. The single-payer, public delivery systems perform the worst in terms of patient satisfaction.
"It's very important to remember the law is not simply what powerful people would want others to believe it is." -- Julian Assange
#8. To: jwpegler (#7) (Edited)
All of these systems are very different. The single-payer, public delivery systems perform the worst in terms of patient satisfaction.
And the single payer (socialist) system still outperforms the American system.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/42717.php
The British (using single payer socialist system) Are Much Healthier Than The Americans
A large study, which looked at the health of middle class, middle-aged, white residents in both the USA and Britain (so you can't claim blacks/immigrants lower the health results) found that the British enjoy much better health than their American counterparts. Even though the USA has a much higher income per capita than the UK, about 25% higher, the British are far ahead when it comes to the health of its residents.
Americans also spend a great deal more on health care than the British do. The average expenditure per head per year on health in the UK is $2,164, while in the USA it stands at $5,274.
You can read about this study in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), May 3 Issue.
Even when obesity, drinking, smoking and social levels are taken into account, the difference between the two nations is significant.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
#9. To: Rudgear, jwpegler (#4)
One important factor wasn't mentioned: illegal migrants. Neither Switzerland or Singapore have governments that actually encourage criminals to overflow their borders and drain the public purse to the detriment of the native citizens. Until the invasion of these hostiles is turned back, either model is moot as far as I can see.
France, England and Germany have large immigrant populations - illegal and legal and they still do better than America's system which forces uninsured into the emergency room which we all pay for.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
#10. To: jwpegler (#7)
In Singapore you are required to save 8% of you income for healthcare. You can use your health savings to buy insurance and pay for out-of-pocket expenses. The government subsidizes health savings for very low income people.
It's a tax. Govt telling you what to do with your own money, "Socialism" as the Rush Limbough crowd would recon it.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
#11. To: Godwinson (#9)
We have always paid for those citizens who couldn't afford the cost themselves and nobody complained. European nations as individual countries have in no way the numbers of illegals the US has. Europe is starting to come to grips with its illegal problem. They see the cause and effect. Our politicians claim they do not and continue to exacerbate the problem to the point of tying the hand of our border patrol.
Well, [war's] got to do something for attention, his multiple personalities aren't speaking to him any more, and his imaginary friends keep finding excuses not to come over.
#12. To: Godwinson (#8) (Edited)
And the single payer (socialist) system still outperforms the American system.
Utter nonsense.
Average life expectancy in the European Union is 77.3 years. It's 78.14 years in the U.S.
Singapore has the most free market healthcare system in the world and their life expectancy is 82.07 years.
Take black-on-black crime out of the statistics and life expectancy in the U.S. jumps to over 80 years old.
"It's very important to remember the law is not simply what powerful people would want others to believe it is." -- Julian Assange
#13. To: Godwinson (#10)
It's a tax
No, it's mandatory savings. It's still your money. You get to spend it. If you are frugal, it builds up in your account until retirement.
"It's very important to remember the law is not simply what powerful people would want others to believe it is." -- Julian Assange
#14. To: jwpegler (#12) (Edited)
Average life expectancy in the European Union is 77.3 years. It's 78.14 years in the U.S.
You are a filthy liar if you know the truth or if you are not a liar on purpose than an idiot who thinks he knows facts but does not.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world- factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html
41 European Union 78.82 2010 est.
49 United States 78.24 2010 est.
The United Kingdom is ranked #28 @ 79.92 2010 est. (single payer system aka socilaist)
The Greeks who are poor rank at # 29 Greece @ 79.80 2010 est.
Others on the list:
#12 France 81.09 2010 est
#15 Switzerland 80.97 2010 est.
I post links to my facts - I notice you right wing loser posers post BS with no back ups.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
#15. To: jwpegler (#13)
No, it's mandatory savings. It's still your money. You get to spend it.
Only on govt approved health care.... Sort of like Obama forcing everyone to buy with their own money health insurance.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
#16. To: bayhorse (#2)
"How about the Damn Politicians just get their nose the Hell out of it and let DOCTORS do what they do best..."
Like abortion? No, sometimes doctors and insurance providers are myopic and clued in to only their own vested interest. It is the job of the government to watch out for the best interest of the people and there is a legitimate role in government in regulating health care.
#17. To: Rudgear (#6)
..we are the only country with zero border enforcement.
That isn't true.
BTW, other countries have penalties for employers that hire illegals.
They consume public services and do not pay tax.
If you believe that corporations don't pay taxes, people do, then you must also believe that everytime an illegal buys a product, food, or service he is paying taxes.
Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains. Thomas Jefferson
#18. To: jwpegler (#12)
Take black-on-black crime out of the statistics and life expectancy in the U.S. jumps to over 80 years old.
If true, that would change our rank from 36 to 15. Not so wonderful for the greatest country in the world.
Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains. Thomas Jefferson
#19. To: jwpegler (#13)
No, it's mandatory savings.
How dare the nanny state tell ME I have to save money.
Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains. Thomas Jefferson
#20. To: Ferret Mike (#16)
No, sometimes doctors and insurance providers are myopic and clued in to only their own vested interest.
Some times a doctors vested interest includes owning the lab were he sends his patients for tests.
How many physicians own interest in medical facilities outside their offices? Health Care Facilities? A comprehensive survey of the State of Florida, reported in 1992 in the Journal of the American Medical Association, revealed that at least 40 percent of practicing Florida physicians have an investment in a health care business to which they refer patients. The researchers who conducted the survey felt the number might be even higher, because those physicians who refused to answer the survey were probably more likely to be investors. Over 90 percent of diagnostic imaging centers (such as MRI facilities) and over 75 percent of ambulatory surgery centers are owned wholly or partially by referring doctors. Referring physicians were investors in half the clinical laboratories and radiation therapy centers and in almost 40 percent of the physical therapy centers. In most of these facilities, the majority of patients are referred by their physician investors.
www.drmccall.com/eyd/eyd20.html
Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains. Thomas Jefferson
#21. To: lucysmom (#17)
BTW, other countries have penalties for employers that hire illegals.
Thanks for reminding me. We don't penalize employers who hire illegals. Hell, even elected officials are admitting they hire illegals over Americans. They should be impeached.
If you believe that corporations don't pay taxes, people do, then you must also believe that every time an illegal buys a product, food, or service he is paying taxes.
Corporations pay more in tax than all the illegals put together if you are going to compare tax on convenience store garbage and gasoline then everybody pays tax. Illegals don't pay income tax. Corporations may employ tax attorneys to try and avoid paying as much as possible, but they do pay tax. Let's take a look at the Clinton's return. Better yet, how about Al Gore's? Isn't he the one who tried to make individual charity an issue?
Well, [war's] got to do something for attention, his multiple personalities aren't speaking to him any more, and his imaginary friends keep finding excuses not to come over.
#22. To: Rudgear (#21)
Illegals don't pay income tax.
Their incomes are probably to low.
Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains. Thomas Jefferson
#23. To: jwpegler (#1)
Thanks for the ping - you and I are pretty close in views on healthcare reform, but your views make you a "socialist" in today's current Conservative climate.
Since January 3, 2011, Republicans have controlled the power of the purse.
#24. To: lucysmom (#22)
Their incomes are probably to low.
They don't pay ANY income tax BECAUSE they are ILLEGALLY here.
Well, [war's] got to do something for attention, his multiple personalities aren't speaking to him any more, and his imaginary friends keep finding excuses not to come over.
#25. To: Rudgear (#24)
RICHMOND, Calif. — Carlos Diaz broke the law when he crossed the border and took a job as an office janitor. But he’s not about to break another by failing to pay his income tax.“I’ve been talking to other people who’ve done it, and I want to follow the law,” said Diaz, an undocumented immigrant from Guatemala who squirmed in his seat at a neighborhood tax preparer’s office.
Tuesday is Tax Day, when millions of illegal immigrants find themselves collaborating with one federal agency — the Internal Revenue Service — while trying to avoid another — Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
They hope a track record of on-time payments will aid their citizenship applications, but critics who favor tougher enforcement of federal immigration rules say it’s absurd for the government to work with people it should be tracking down and deporting. It legitimizes the presence of immigrants who are here illegally, critics say, and sends a mixed message about the country’s interest in enforcing its own rules.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18077009/ns/business-tax_tactics/
Many immigrants do pay taxes, whether they are legally or illegally here.
#26. To: Rudgear, Ferret Mike. Capitalist Eric (#24)
They don't pay ANY income tax BECAUSE they are ILLEGALLY here.
I see that Mike has schooled you in how it works so I don't have to. Thanks Mike.
Further, Capitalist Eric says that "corporations don't pay taxes, people do" (he doesn't exactly say that, its one of those slogans he just repeats), so according to him, everytime an illegal buys something, he is paying the corporations taxes, the income and payroll taxes for the corporations employees because those taxes are embedded in the price of a product or service.
Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains. Thomas Jefferson
#27. To: lucysmom (#26)
Lady, you are one crazy bug. I take no schooling from letists since they know nothing worth knowing.
Well, [war's] got to do something for attention, his multiple personalities aren't speaking to him any more, and his imaginary friends keep finding excuses not to come over.
#28. To: lucysmom (#26)
BTW, corporations are made up of individuals, crazy.
Well, [war's] got to do something for attention, his multiple personalities aren't speaking to him any more, and his imaginary friends keep finding excuses not to come over.
#29. To: go65 (#23) (Edited)
but your views make you a "socialist" in today's current Conservative climate.
No. Conservatives are the biggest supporters of the Singapore healthcare system. The Heritage Foundation consistently rates Singapore as the second freest economy on earth behind Hong Kong. Heritage consistently rates Switzerland as a freer economy than the U.S.
1.) Hong Kong 2.) Singapore 3.) Australia 4.) New Zealand 5.) Switzerland 6.) Canada 7.) Ireland 8.) Denmark 9.) United States 10.) Bahrain
You people listen to your own propaganda too much. Conservatives have been pushing medical savings accounts as a way to reduce healthcare costs for a couple of decades.
"It's very important to remember the law is not simply what powerful people would want others to believe it is." -- Julian Assange
#30. To: Godwinson (#15)
Only on govt approved health care
No, on the healthcare you want.
"It's very important to remember the law is not simply what powerful people would want others to believe it is." -- Julian Assange
#31. To: jwpegler (#30)
No, on the healthcare you want.
You can't spend it on a car or a vacation. You are restricted in that you have to buy health care with that money. That's almost the same (heck, it is the same) as the Republican health care plan Obama adopted and is now known as Obamacare.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
#32. To: jwpegler, go65 (#29)
You people listen to your own propaganda too much.
Says the guy who stated the USA's life expectancy is better than the EUs....
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
#33. To: jwpegler, go65 (#29)
Conservatives are the biggest supporters of the Singapore healthcare system. The Heritage Foundation consistently rates Singapore as the second freest economy on earth behind Hong Kong. Heritage consistently rates Switzerland as a freer economy than the U.S.
Canada scores 80.8 to the US's 77.8 on the Heritage Foundation's Index of Economic Freedom, does that mean the Conservatives like Canada's health care system better than ours?
www.heritage.org/Index/ranking
Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains. Thomas Jefferson
#34. To: Rudgear (#28)
BTW, corporations are made up of individuals, crazy.
Yes that's true; did you just figure it out?
Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains. Thomas Jefferson
#35. To: Godwinson (#32) (Edited)
Says the guy who stated the USA's life expectancy is better than the EUs
It's right here bozo:
Health Statistics > Life expectancy at birth > Total population (most recent) by country
United States: 78.14 years
European Union 77.32 years (look at the bottom of the list for this)
I'm a total numbers guy. When I say something, I have the numbers to prove it. You can't argue you mindless ideology against my numbers. It doesn't work.
"It's very important to remember the law is not simply what powerful people would want others to believe it is." -- Julian Assange
#36. To: lucysmom (#33)
does that mean the Conservatives like Canada's health care system better than ours?
You should read the article and find out. I'm not here to do your homework for you.
"It's very important to remember the law is not simply what powerful people would want others to believe it is." -- Julian Assange
#37. To: Godwinson (#31)
That's almost the same as the Obamacare.
It's absoluately not the same at all. Obamacare is a bueacratic nightmare that takes responsibility away from individuals and will escalate costs even more.
In the 1960s both the U.S. and Singapore spent 6% of GDP on healthcare.
The U.S. went the socialist route with Medicare and Medicaid. Singapore went the market route with medical savings accounts.
Today, Singapore spends 3.7% on heathcare and the U.S. spends 16.5%
Case closed.
"It's very important to remember the law is not simply what powerful people would want others to believe it is." -- Julian Assange
#38. To: jwpegler (#29)
No. Conservatives are the biggest supporters of the Singapore healthcare system.
Singapore's government ensures universal coverage, institutes price controls, and has a mandatory savings program.
Are you really telling me Conservatives support this? Where do you find the constitutional authority for these programs?
Since January 3, 2011, Republicans have controlled the power of the purse.
#39. To: jwpegler (#35)
US slips to 49th in life expectancy: studyThe United States currently ranks 49th in the world in overall life expectancy, according to a study published in the academic journal Health Affairs, slipping dramatically during the last decade.
"As of September 23, 2010, the United States ranked forty-ninth for both male and female life expectancy combined," concludes the study, conducted by Columbia University health policy professors Peter A. Muennig and Sherry A. Glied, which will appear in the November edition of the influential peer-reviewed journal.
The noteworthy decline is highlighted by the fact that in 1999, the World Health Organization ranked the US as 24th in the world in the same category, life expectancy.
(more in link)
The facts do not support your point.
#40. To: jwpegler (#35)
CIA trumps your wikipedia like source.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world- factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html
41 European Union 78.82 2010 est.
49 United States 78.24 2010 est.
The United Kingdom is ranked #28 @ 79.92 2010 est. (single payer system aka socilaist)
The Greeks who are poor rank at # 29 Greece @ 79.80 2010 est.
Others on the list:
#12 France 81.09 2010 est
#15 Switzerland 80.97 2010 est.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
#41. To: jwpegler (#36)
I'm not here to do your homework for you.
Goldi said that to me when I asked her to back something up - I expected better than that from you.
(no offense, I wouldn't trust you to do my homework.)
Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains. Thomas Jefferson
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