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Bible Study
See other Bible Study Articles

Title: Questions
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Jan 23, 2024
Author: Vicomte13
Post Date: 2024-01-23 12:12:33 by Vicomte13
Keywords: None
Views: 5570
Comments: 26

People believe different things, based on differing evidence.

Here, there are several people who believe, ardently, in their heart of hearts, that the King James Version of the Holy Bible is perfect, and directly from God. Nothing in it is wrong, or can be.

I do not ask these questions to mock anyone's belief; I ask to understand it, the extent of it. Were I ever to adopt such a belief, I would need to be convinced it was true. I do not say that I cannot be convinced; that is not true. I COULD BE convinced, were I shown the proper evidence.

So, let me ask my questions. I would like a thoughtful answer from a KJV- Only believer.

Of course, once I send this, it is in the air, and each of you may do as you please with it. It is much easier to attack me, claiming that my question is insincere, claiming to know the interior of my heart, etc. And in this way, to dodge the question. But the question remains. I would hope that we could avoid that step, and just answer my question.

(To help, I will give what I believe the KJV-Onliest's response would be. If it is right, the KJV-Onliest could simply aver that: "Yes, that is correct." If it is wrong, he may correct it.)

Question 1: Following the time frame and the genealogies present in. Genesis, Chapters 1-5, the earth is approximately 6000 years old. There can be some fluctuation and some uncertainty, especially in connecting Moses to a particular reign of a particular Pharaoh in Egypt. This might add a few hundred years, here and there.

The Septuagint Greek, likewise, renders a world that is about 12,000 years old, give or take, but we are using the KJV, and it is about 6000 years old, about 2000 years before the Flood, and 4000 years since.

Do you agree?

My view of what the KJV-Onliest will state: "Yes, that is correct. If you add up the years of the genealogy tables in Genesis 4 and trace them forward, you get a precise number of years from Adam to the Flood, and there are references to the ages of Adam's sons and their offspring after the Flood, to the sons of Isaac and the descent into Egypt, and then to the number of years the Hebrews were in Egypt. Connecting Moses' Pharaoh to the historical timeline is imperfect, but it was in Egypt, and we can narrow it to a certain band of time, perhaps 100-200 years. So, we cannot state with certainty that the world was created on EXACTLY October 7, 3761 BC, as the Orthodox Jews do, because the Bible record gets fuzzy in terms of exact lifespans and dates with Moses, as a ballpark that is about right, give or take a few years.

The world is NOT 15,000 years old, let alone 4.5 billion. Plants were created on the third day of creation, and various animals were created on the 5th Day, and the 6th, with the creation of Adam being last, but this was all in 3 days.

Now, "a day in the sight of God is a thousand years" the KJV says, so MAYBE, just MAYBE, there was a 3500 year span between the creation of plants and the creation of man. But it says nowhere that a day is 500 million years, or a billion years. So, maybe you could tack on a few thousand years for the first 5 days, but that's it.

According to the KJV, the world is about 6000 years old. Maybe 11,000, if one reads those days without men as "a thousand years", maybe not. That is not perfectly clear.

What IS clear is that it is NOT 4.5 billion years old. That is flatly contradicted by the Bible."

Is that a fair statement of the KJV-Onliest's belief?

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 24.

#8. To: Vicomte13 (#0) (Edited)

The KJV, in my opinion, is translated into English fairly accurately, but with two exceptions. The last book, the Revelation to John (aka the Apocalypse), has mistakes in it which makes the Apocalypse difficult to understand for KJV readers. A literal translation of the Greek, such as Young's Literal Translation allows the Revelation to make much more sense.

As for Genesis and the six days of creation. The original Hebrew does NOT say the Earth was created in six days (or the Earth is 6000 years old). The earth was created in six time periods, with each one lasting millions of years. The time periods align perfectly with the six time periods that most scientists divide our creation into. (If the Bible does not agree with historical and scientific facts, it should be thrown into the garbage).

The Bible, or at least most of it, is inerrant. It is the translations of it into English that quite often introduce errors. The NIV and other Bibles based on the heretical "Alexandrian" text are by far the worst, and greatly distort the Bible, and especially the Apocalypse making it virtually impossible to understand. (Hence all the weird movies and theories about it that exist today).

Barry Midyet

interpreter  posted on  2024-01-27   1:38:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: interpreter (#8)

So, you think that Genesis is to be taken literally, but that the KJV translates it wrong? Ok.

Do you think the ancient Hebrews who wrote it thought that the world was created in 6 epochs, each being millions of years? Or that it was created in a sequence of six days?

Do you think that the writers MEANT millions of years, or six days?

And given that they probably meant 6 days, do you think that God was directing their thoughts, such that they may have thought that, but what they wrote is nevertheless true, because what is written can be interpreted as meaning 6 time periods of millions of years.

Also, do you think that the 6 time periods described in Genesis are the order of creation as described by God, such that the trees, created on day three, stood for millions of years until God created the sun in the fourth period, millions of years later.

Or do you think that these 6 time periods were overlapping? Such that he unmasked the sun allowing it to reach the earth at about the time that he started making the plants grow?

Vicomte13  posted on  2024-01-27   11:25:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Vicomte13 (#9) (Edited)

All I know is, Genesis says the earth was created in six time periods. Actually the Hebrew word used is "yom" which in ancient Hebrew simply meant time period, which could mean anywhere from one 24-hour day to thousands or millions of years. In today's usage, it is usually taken to mean one 24-hour day but there is no way of knowing for certain what the author(s) of Genesis were thinking, but if God was directing their thoughts (as I believe) then yes, God definitely knew it was not a 24- hour day.

And no, the time periods do not overlap.

As for the fourth time period, that is not when the sun was created (it was created in Yom one), but it's when the four seasons that we have now were created. In other words, when the earth came be tilted as it is today, creating the 4 seasons. At the end of Yom 4, and beginning of Yom 5, as animals began to recognize the 4 seasons, the first (semi) intelligent animal appeared, a squirrel-monkey, that learned to store food for the winter, the beginning of intelligence.

But in yom 5 there were also (dumb) dinosaurs around, so God caused a giant asteroid to strike the Earth, and at exactly the right time, in order to wipe out the undesired (giant reptile) species and allow the (smarter) mammals to survive and thrive. In every case, when there was a mass extinction on Earth (caused by God and Providence), a smarter species of animal (and plant) life appeared to replace the species that was wiped out.

Because all of the mass extinctions occurred at exactly the right time to advance life on earth to the next stage, there is no way they could have happened entirely by chance.

It is called the Intelligent Design theory (because you can't mention "God" in public schools) and it should be taught alongside Darwin's theory in all schools in order to give our young people a higher power to believe in, and save them and our nation from self-destruction.

Barry, the interpreter

PS, the old intelligent design theory was banned by the (atheist-led) US Supreme court because it was not "specific" enough. The intelligent design theory decribed above is my "specific" version as espoused in my book, "Genesis: Why We Are Here"

interpreter  posted on  2024-01-27   23:44:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: interpreter (#15) (Edited)

That's certainly an interpretation, but there is a vice in the construction, in that Genesis says that in Yom 1 God created light, separating it from the darkness. In Yom 2 he created the dry land. In Yom 3 he created the plants and trees, and in Yom 4 he created the sun and moon. That is what the text says. So, when I asked if these times could be overlapping, I was expecting you to say yes, because then you would have the sun and the plants being created simultaneously, in different mentioned creation cycles. Supporting this is the verb tenses. There are only two in ancient Hebrew - the perfect, signifying something is completed ("God created"), and the imperfect, signifying something that is incomplete ("God began to create", or "God will create".). And in Genesis, all of the sequence of creation, each Yom, is described using imperfect verbs. God did not create light in Yom 1, or create plants in Yom 3, or create the Sun in Yom 4. He began to create each. All of these verbs are in the imperfect. Only in day 7 does it say that God completed the creation, but even then it doesn't use a completed perfect verb. Rather, it says "God began to complete...".

That is why I thought you might say that the creation accounts of each yom overlap. You understand the Hebrew enough to see that a "Yom" is a time period, as in "in the days", not as in "Monday". Perhaps you have overlooked this verb tense issue, because your straight assertion that there is no overlap, and that the Sun was created on the first day, rather squarely contradicts what the text SAYS (according to you, which disregards the verb tenses).

According to you, each Yom is Completed before the next Yom begins. The Hebrew verbs don't say that, but you do. Ok. Going with that, go consult Genesis again. It says that the plants were created on the third yom, t hundreds of millions of years. But it clearly says that the great light and the lesser light - sun and moon - that divide day and night - was created on the fourth day.

Now, as I read it, with God beginning to create these things, per the Hebrew verb, with them all overlapping, this is fine. But as you read it, it appears to have real logical problems for me. Then I have the plants living for hundreds of millions of years, without the sun. You said the sun was created the first day, because "light" was created then, but the text SAYS that the sun and moon and stars were created on the fourth (actually it says they began to be created, but you don't currently recognize that).

So, I'm asking you to reconsider what you think, based on this, and to look again at the text remembering the verb tense issues, and noting in particular the creation of the plants on the third yom, but the sun on the fourth.

With those things considered, if you could answer, I would appreciate it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2024-01-28   12:22:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Vicomte13 (#17)

According to you, each Yom is Completed before the next Yom begins. The Hebrew verbs don't say that, but you do. Ok. Going with that, go consult Genesis again. It says that the plants were created on the third yom, t hundreds of millions of years. But it clearly says that the great light and the lesser light - sun and moon - that divide day and night - was created on the fourth day.

Now, as I read it, with God beginning to create these things, per the Hebrew verb, with them all overlapping, this is fine. But as you read it, it appears to have real logical problems for me. Then I have the plants living for hundreds of millions of years, without the sun. You said the sun was created the first day, because "light" was created then, but the text SAYS that the sun and moon and stars were created on the fourth (actually it says they began to be created, but you don't currently recognize that).

So, I'm asking you to reconsider what you think, based on this, and to look again at the text remembering the verb tense issues, and noting in particular the creation of the plants on the third yom, but the sun on the fourth.

With those things considered, if you could answer, I would appreciate it.

I wasn't ignoring your post, but trying to answer your post while watching the playoffs didn't work out and I lost everything I wrote. So I'll try again.

The verb-tense thing you have brought up is interesting, and after reading Young's literal translation (again) I noticed the verb tense changes to past tense in Day 4 (or Yom 4) . Not sure what to make of that change in verb tenses, but is does kinda hint that the sun was created on Yom 1 and only the seasons (as we know them today) were created on Yom 4, which is what I've been thinking for years now because it fully agrees with the scientific facts.

Anyhow, I want to move on to another theory -- the Dispensational theory. In the New Testament days, the Jew's wise men (or Magi) of the eastern hill country (the Qumran area) believed the creation story was actually six thousand-year periods in the creation of man. (Based on a couple verses that say "with God, 1 day = 1,000 years).

And they taught that the Messiah would be born at the beginning of Day 4, the day of the sun. And the Qumran wise men (who watched the stars at night while tending their sheep) also taught that the beginning of Day 4 (and the birth of the Messiah) would be marked by a bright morning star (also known as the Star in the East). (The same bright morning star adorning the Israeli flag today)

It so happens that a bright morning star appeared over Bethlehem (at high noon) precisely 4000 thousand years after the appearance of Adam, on March 27th, 4 BC. It can be seen with any star-tracking software set to that date. (I used Distant Suns, vers. 2). It was the first day of the Hebrew New Year. Exactly six months earlier, the same thing happened when John the Babtist was born, at the beginning of the sacred calendar,

That's when the two morning stars sang together, as first prophesied in Job, the oldest writing there is, predating Genesis. Ironically, the Qumran community had a copy of Job, but did not possess a copy of the verse saying where the Messiah would be born (and had to ask Herod's wise men).

We are now in the seventh millennium of man, which was marked by the Euphrates drying up, just as the Bible predicts. So the Dispensational view of the Genesis creation saga is definitely valid, and easily proven.

For more on this, see my book, Genesis: Why We Are Here.

interpreter  posted on  2024-01-29   3:07:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: interpreter (#22) (Edited)

Hmmm. Well, as I read those verbs, they remain in the imperfect form the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th day, always "he will say", "he will make". They're never the perfect "he made", "he said".

So it seems to me that these things are all open-ended, and can be read as overlapping, which is how I read them.

It makes sense to me that, overlapping, the first beginnings of the plants, and the animals, and the sun and moon, can be seen as happening at once, or in a sequence that is not meant to be an order as much as a labelling of different processes: energy, land and sea and sky, sun, moon and stars, plants, animals of different types.

Vicomte13  posted on  2024-01-29   15:35:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 24.

#25. To: Vicomte13 (#24)

Hmmm. Well, as I read those verbs, they remain in the imperfect form the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th day, always "he will say", "he will make". They're never the perfect "he made", "he said".

So it seems to me that these things are all open-ended, and can be read as overlapping, which is how I read them.

Well, I know a little Hebrew, but when it comes to ancient Hebrew, just enough to be dangerous. So I rely on Young's YLT Bible. It has verses 14 & 15 in the perfect tense.

In short, I believe the creation saga can be interpreted two ways, each being equally valid, but in both cases, Genesis is talking about time periods way longer than a 24-hour day. You have made we aware of the verb tenses which I will investigate further when I have the time.

In answer to your previous post, I live in the Houston area, a long ways from New York City. But before I retired, my company sent me to that area every couple years or so, so I know my way around Manhattan, can't afford to live there though. But would love to meet you for dinner someday.

interpreter  posted on  2024-01-29 20:06:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 24.

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