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U.S. Constitution
See other U.S. Constitution Articles

Title: Treason and Sedition Alert: Repeal the Second Amendment
Source: FromThe Trenches
URL Source: http://fromthetrenchesworldreport.c ... al-the-second-amendment/222233
Published: Mar 27, 2018
Author: ohn Paul Stevens
Post Date: 2018-03-27 11:16:48 by Deckard
Keywords: None
Views: 1162
Comments: 24

Rarely in my lifetime have I seen the type of civic engagement schoolchildren and their supporters demonstrated in Washington and other major cities throughout the country this past Saturday. These demonstrations demand our respect. They reveal the broad public support for legislation to minimize the risk of mass killings of schoolchildren and others in our society. 

That support is a clear sign to lawmakers to enact legislation prohibiting civilian ownership of semiautomatic weapons, increasing the minimum age to buy a gun from 18 to 21 years old, and establishing more comprehensive background checks on all purchasers of firearms. But the demonstrators should seek more effective and more lasting reform. They should demand a repeal of the Second Amendment.

Concern that a national standing army might pose a threat to the security of the separate states led to the adoption of that amendment, which provides that “a well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.” Today that concern is a relic of the 18th century.

For over 200 years after the adoption of the Second Amendment, it was uniformly understood as not placing any limit on either federal or state authority to enact gun control legislation. In 1939 the Supreme Court unanimously held that Congress could prohibit the possession of a sawed-off shotgun because that weapon had no reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a “well regulated militia.”

During the years when Warren Burger was our chief justice, from 1969 to 1986, no judge, federal or state, as far as I am aware, expressed any doubt as to the limited coverage of that amendment. When organizations like the National Rifle Association disagreed with that position and began their campaign claiming that federal regulation of firearms curtailed Second Amendment rights, Chief Justice Burger publicly characterized the N.R.A. as perpetrating “one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word fraud, on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime.”

In 2008, the Supreme Court overturned Chief Justice Burger’s and others’ long-settled understanding of the Second Amendment’s limited reach by ruling, in District of Columbia v. Heller, that there was an individual right to bear arms. I was among the four dissenters.

That decision — which I remain convinced was wrong and certainly was debatable — has provided the N.R.A. with a propaganda weapon of immense power. Overturning that decision via a constitutional amendment to get rid of the Second Amendment would be simple and would do more to weaken the N.R.A.’s ability to stymie legislative debate and block constructive gun control legislation than any other available option.

That simple but dramatic action would move Saturday’s marchers closer to their objective than any other possible reform. It would eliminate the only legal rule that protects sellers of firearms in the United States — unlike every other market in the world. It would make our schoolchildren safer than they have been since 2008 and honor the memories of the many, indeed far too many, victims of recent gun violence.

John Paul Stevens is a retired associate justice of the United States Supreme Court.

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#1. To: Deckard (#0)

In 1939 the Supreme Court unanimously held that Congress could prohibit the possession of a sawed-off shotgun because that weapon had no reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a “well regulated militia.”

They didn't say that. In United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939), the U.S. Supreme Court said the second amendment only protected military-type weapons, and they had no evidence -- one way or the other -- if those weapons included sawed-off shotguns. So they made no decision and remanded the case back to the lower court to determine if the sawed-off shotgun had a reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a “well regulated militia.”

But if they did say that, doesn't that mean that Congress could not prohibit the possession of any weapons which had a reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a “well regulated militia”?

Seems like it to me.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-03-27   11:44:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Deckard (#0)

I almost never give a shit what some Big Stupid Government parasite has to say about anything anymore.

They lie.

Hank Rearden  posted on  2018-03-27   12:09:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Deckard (#0)

My guess is that all but maybe 0ne million would surrender their guns to girlscouts if that's who the democrat and it's allies sent to confiscate guns, BUT for that one million who would fight, kill and if needs be die to keep their guns, the cost to those coming to confiscate them would be horrendous.

After coming to my house, they still have to go thru the oods to get back to their lair.

I also tend to doubt that, that, that one millions would hold the political ruling class harmless.

BobCeleste  posted on  2018-03-27   12:20:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Deckard (#0)

It is neither seditious nor treasonous to do what John Paul Stevens did here. In fact, his suggestion is a refreshing breath of honesty.

We have constitutionally-protected gun rights in America because of the Constitutional itself, specifically the second amendment thereto. A large number of people don't like that. They don't like what they perceive to be the results of it.

To try to suppress gun rights while IGNORING the Second Amendment is what is unconstitutional and wrong. What Justice Stevens has suggested here is the honest and straightforward way we are supposed to do things in America: don't like some aspect of the Constitutional order? Repeal it!

If enough people oppose gun rights that 2/3 of both houses of Congress vote to propose a repeal of the Amendment to the states, and 3/4 of the states vote to repeal it, then the Second Amendment (or any other amendment) is gone.

In a similar vein, an issue about which I care intensely: abortion, specifically stopping it. Since the Supreme Court has ruled that abortion is a constitutional right, it is. The only ways to change that are to either change the composition of the Supreme Court through appointees who will reverse the original decision and say it's NOT a constitutional right, or amend the Constitution itself, so that the Supreme Court has no authority to rule otherwise. That's it.

People who oppose the 2nd Amendment have the same legitimate right to oppose it that I have the right to oppose abortion. They have the same right to call for a constitutional amendment that fulfills their wishes. John Paul Stevens called for repeal of the 2nd Amendment, and I just proposed an anti- abortion amendment. He and I are both fully within our rights as Americans to say exactly what we said, and both of us correctly identified the level at which the government must be changed to effect the changes we desire: constitutional amendment, nothing less.

The other thing he and I have in common is that we're both going to lose. There is nothing close to the 2/3rds of Congress, 3/4ths of the state legislatures out there who agree. The majority of Americans want abortion rights, and want gun rights. To change the Constitution would require thwarting their will. Not going to happen any time soon.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-03-27   17:14:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Vicomte13 (#4)

He and I are both fully within our rights as Americans to say exactly what we said, and both of us correctly identified the level at which the government must be changed to effect the changes we desire: constitutional amendment, nothing less.

Stevens also railed against the 2008 Supreme Court District of Columbia v. Heller decision that established an individual right to bear arms. “That decision — which I remain convinced was wrong and certainly was debatable -----"

. It's not debatable, in my opinion, because our right to arms, to self defense, is inalienable.. ---- A basic right, like life and liberty...

Thus, ---- it's repeal would be unconstitutional.

And while you have the right to call for it's repeal. --- we who oppose you have the right to call you seditious.

tpaine  posted on  2018-03-27   18:46:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Deckard (#0)

"For over 200 years after the adoption of the Second Amendment, it was uniformly understood as not placing any limit on either federal or state authority to enact gun control legislation.

In 1939 the Supreme Court unanimously held that Congress could prohibit the possession of a sawed-off shotgun ----"

Stevens is getting senile, as it was 1933 that Scotus said that about shotguns. (See misterwhite first post,above)

And, it was not uniformly understood that the Fed or State governments could enact limitless infringements. The feds made none until 1933, and local/state govts were very cautious until the same 1933 era.

Gun control is a fairly modern socialistic disease, started by the Marxists in England, imho....

tpaine  posted on  2018-03-27   22:22:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: All (#6)

Stevens is getting senile, as it was 1933 that Scotus said that about shotguns. (See misterwhite first post,above)

My apologies to Stevens: ----

United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939), was a Supreme Court case that involved a Second Amendment challenge to the National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA). Miller is often cited in the ongoing American gun politics debate, as both sides claim that it supports their position.

tpaine  posted on  2018-03-27   22:33:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: tpaine (#7)

Miller was long absent from the case once debates begun within the adjudicators of the USSC and the final decision. I have often considered that event "odd."

buckeroo  posted on  2018-03-27   22:54:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: tpaine (#5)

And while you have the right to call for it's repeal. --- we who oppose you have the right to call you seditious.

You have the right to call me a purple sea turtle if it floats your boat.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-03-27   22:56:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Vicomte13 (#9)

Seditious will do just fine... Any further comments about the following?

Our right to arms is inalienable.. A basic right, like life and liberty... ---- Thus, ---- it's repeal would be unconstitutional.

Our right to be armed, to defend ourselves, cannot be voted away by others..

Just as our right to life and liberty cannot... These rights are inherant and basic...

tpaine  posted on  2018-03-28   1:52:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: tpaine (#10)

The constitution isn't morality.

Would it be unconstitutional to bring slavery back?

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-03-28   8:12:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: tpaine (#10) (Edited)

It is not sedition to say the Constitution should be amended. You have been brainwashed into preserving the constitution no matter what since birth. Bad laws need to be repealed. The second amendment is overreach in the twenty-first century, it belongs in the days of Indian wars, frontiers, war with the British and the idea that the states were sovereign. That last idea was wiped out in the civil war and now what you have is illusion

paraclete  posted on  2018-03-28   8:37:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: A K A Stone (#11)

The constitution isn't morality.

Would it be unconstitutional to bring slavery back?

Nothing in my comments is about morality, --- they are facts. --- And our rights to life and liberty are violated by slavery, of course...

Our right to arms is inalienable.. A basic right, like life and liberty... ---- Thus, ---- it's repeal would be unconstitutional.

Our right to be armed, to defend ourselves, cannot be voted away by others..

Just as our right to life and liberty cannot... These rights are inherant and basic...

tpaine  posted on  2018-03-28   12:38:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: paraclete (#12)

It is not sedition to say the Constitution should be amended.

--- While you have the right to call for it's (the 2nds) repeal. --- we who oppose you have the right to call you seditious ..

Read much?--- I said we could CALL him seditious, not prosecute him for the crime of sedition.

As to your opinions about our Constitution, try telling them to someone that cares what you think...

tpaine  posted on  2018-03-28   12:51:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: tpaine (#13)

Thus, ---- it's repeal would be unconstitutional.

No, it wouldn't be.

The Constitution is a man-made law. It's the "supreme law of the land", according to its own text.

(Many have always disagreed with this, and said that God's law is the Supreme Law of ALL lands, including this one, and that man's law under the Constitution cannot violate God's law - but of course that's not true: American law, under the Constitution, often DOES violate God's law, and American courts and cops enforce man's law, not God's.)

This "supreme law of the land" contains within itself a section that provides TWO different ways by which it can be amended, and it can be amended by that process. The Second Amendment was added to the Constitution by just that process: it was not in the original document. It can be removed, by the same process, and that process and the removing would, by definition, be constitutional.

Would it be RIGHT? Well, what's "right"? We all have opinions on that. Where the argument comes out is decided by politics, under the Constitution..

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-03-28   13:07:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Vicomte13 (#15)

The Constitution is a man-made law. It's the "supreme law of the land", according to its own text.

The bill of rights, our first amendments,--- are also a list of rights, some inalienable, (unable to be amended away), some merely man made laws, as you say.

Our right to be armed, to defend ourselves, cannot be voted away by others.. Just as our right to life and liberty cannot... These rights are inherant and basic... They can be forfeited of course, by committing capital crimes.

Our right to arms is inalienable.. A basic right, like life and liberty... ---- Thus, ---- it's repeal would be unconstitutional.

You do believe that we have an inalienable right to life, don't you?

tpaine  posted on  2018-03-28   13:45:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: tpaine (#16)

some inalienable, (unable to be amended away)

That's not what the word "inalienable" means. (BTW, the word in the Declaration of Independence is "unalienable".)

"Alienation" is a legal term. It generically means to send away from, to send away, to "make alien".

In a legal sense, the alienation of rights is the decision by the possessor of a right or a privilege to give up that right or privilege, by contract, in exchange for something.

So, an "unalienable right" is a right that cannot be contracted away, even by a man who wants to do so. The Common Law itself will not recognize the right of a man to alienate from himself, by contract an unalienable right.

An example: under current Anglo-American law, going back some time, a man had no ability to legally sell himself into slavery. No matter how badly a man WANTED to become a slave, and was willing to sell himself by contract into slavery, the law recognizes no such contract, and will not permit a man to alienate his right of freedom.

He cannot sell it - the law will not recognize the sale. The right is Unalienable: he cannot contract the right away even if he wants to.

In a similar vein, a man cannot legally accept payment to allow other men to kill him. If they have a fully drafted, witnessed document, duly noted by a sworn witness, the man who kills the man who pays is a murderer. The right to life is unalienable: you can't contract out of it.

A real world example are the laws against usury. There are people out there who need money and need it so badly that they are willing to pay 25, 30, 40% for a loan. There are always lenders ready to lend. And yet, in many states, if they write up a contract to lend at 40%, the loan is illegal, because personal loans about 8 or 10 or 12% are usurious. What's interesting about the usury laws is the way they are written and enforced. if a lender loans money at usurious interest, in many states the loan is void - and does not have to be repaid. The borrower gets to keep the money, and the lender gets nothing.

There are things that cannot be contracted for, rights that cannot be sold (alienated), and if a purported contract is made, which cannot be made, the right that cannot be alienated is not alienated, the contract is not enforceable, and the attempt to make the contract is voided, converting the money given in exchange for a right that cannot be sold into a GIFT to the other person - subject to gift tax.

So, if we make a contract that you become my slave for $5 million. We sign it. I give you the $5 million, but then you refuse to submit to slavery, I don't get your services, you probably don't have to give me back the $5 million, and I probably have to pay the federal government gift taxes on the $5 million I gave you.

Seems completely just to me. People should know better.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-03-28   15:47:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: tpaine (#16)

You do believe that we have an inalienable right to life, don't you?

I believe we do, from God.

Our Constitution does not, however. Abortion is Constitutional.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-03-28   15:48:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Vicomte13 (#17)

The right to life is unalienable: you can't contract out of it.

Quite true.. Thus, looking at our Constitution as a social/political contract, ----- The right to self defense, to arms, is unalienable: you can't contract out of it, nor can your peers force you to alienate it..

Thanks for admitting the point...

tpaine  posted on  2018-03-28   20:17:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Vicomte13 (#18)

You do believe that we have an inalienable right to life, don't you?

I believe we do, from God. ---- Our Constitution does not, however.

The Ninth mentions certain other rights that shall not be denied.. The 14th enumerates life and liberty.

You admit just above that our right to life is unalienable.. Thanks again...

tpaine  posted on  2018-03-28   20:31:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: tpaine (#19)

Thus, looking at our Constitution as a social/political contract, ----- The right to self defense, to arms, is unalienable: you can't contract out of it, nor can your peers force you to alienate it..

Thanks for admitting the point...

Why do people do that? Pretending they just won an argument they didn't win? Who is persuaded by that? Me? No. Some other reader? No. It's just annoying.

When the contractants came together to draft and sign the Constitution, with its clauses that permit its amendments, they did not include the right to free speech or to keep and bear arms in it.

Recognizing very quickly that, therefore, those rights were NOT protected against the government they had just created, they passed 10 Amendments, using the Amendment process, to put those freedoms into the Constitution as the First and Second Amendments.

Later, people would put the prophibition of alcohol, the 19th Amendment, into the Constitution. But still later, the people removed the 19th Amendment, with the 20th Amendment removing the 19th.

In a similar fashion, the people, through the amendment process could, if they chose, to remove the Second Amendment, or the First.

If removed, the issue of gun rights would become a purely state issue, and states could abolish private ownership if they chose to.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-03-28   21:29:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: tpaine (#20)

You admit just above that our right to life is unalienable.. Thanks again...

I said that it is unalienable under the Laws of God, but that is not true under the Constitution of the United States.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-03-28   21:30:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Vicomte13 (#21)

Vicomte13 (#17) --- The right to life is unalienable: you can't contract out of it.

Quite true.. Thus, looking at our Constitution as a social/political contract, ----- The right to self defense, to arms, is unalienable: you can't contract out of it, nor can your peers force you to alienate it.. --- Thanks for admitting the point... ---- tpaine

Why do people do that? Pretending they just won an argument they didn't win? Who is persuaded by that? Me? No.

I did it because that's what you wrote at #17. I'm not pretending you wrote: ---

--- "The right to life is unalienable: you can't contract out of it." ----

You're pretending you didn't...

tpaine  posted on  2018-03-28   21:57:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Vicomte13 (#22)

You do believe that we have an inalienable right to life, don't you? -- tpaine

Vicomte13 (#18) ---- I believe we do, from God. ---- Our Constitution does not, however.

The Ninth mentions certain other rights that shall not be denied.. The 14th enumerates life and liberty. ---- You admit just above that our right to life is unalienable.. Thanks again... -- tpaine

I said that it is unalienable under the Laws of God, but that is not true under the Constitution of the United States.

I know what you said, -- if you don't want to comment on my reply, fine.

tpaine  posted on  2018-03-28   22:06:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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