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Title: Court Sets Ominous Precedent: Informing Jurors of Their Rights Is Now ILLEGAL
Source: From The Trenches
URL Source: http://fromthetrenchesworldreport.c ... rors-rights-now-illegal/200165
Published: Jun 2, 2017
Author: Justin Gardner
Post Date: 2017-06-03 10:38:54 by Deckard
Keywords: None
Views: 119176
Comments: 422

Big Rapids, MI — As constitutional rights are steadily eroded in the U.S. through the burgeoning police/surveillance state, one case in Michigan provides an example of just how dire the situation has gotten. Keith Woods, a resident of Mecosta County, was charged and recently convicted for the “crime” of standing on a public sidewalk and handing out fliers about juror rights.

Woods was exercising his First Amendment rights and raising awareness about something the courts deliberately fail to tell jurors when beginning a trial – jury nullification, or the right to vote one’s conscience. For this, Woods – a father of eight and former pastor – was charged with jury tampering, after an initial felony charge of obstructing justice was dropped following public outcry.

Even with the reduced charge, the case has very troubling implications for free speech rights. The county prosecutor, seemingly furious that a citizen would dare inform the public on jury nullification, said Woods’ pamphlet “is designed to benefit a criminal defendant.”

The prosecutor then seemed to contradict himself in a statement, saying, “Once again the pamphlet by itself, fine, people have views on what the law should be, that’s fine. It’s the manner by which this pamphlet was handed out.”

Woods, who testified in his own defense, stated under oath that he did not ask anyone walking into the courthouse if they were a juror, remained on the public sidewalk and never blocked any area. He decided to hand out the pamphlets at a Nov. 24, 2015 trial of an Amish man accused of draining a wetland on his property in violation of Dept. of Environment Quality rules.

Woods’ pamphlet did not contain anything specific to the case or any Michigan court, according to defense attorney David Kallman. But this innocuous behavior, which should be viewed as a public service, drew the attention of a judge who became “very concerned” when he saw the pamphlets being carried by some of the jury pool.

“I THOUGHT THIS WAS GOING TO TRASH MY JURY TRIAL, BASICALLY,” TESTIFIED JUDGE [PETER] JAKLEVIC. “IT JUST DIDN’T SOUND RIGHT.”

JACKLEVIC ENDED UP SENDING THAT JURY POOL HOME ON NOV. 24, 2015 WHEN YODER TOOK A PLEA.

JAKLEVIC CONTINUED TO TESTIFY THAT HE STEPPED INTO THE HALLWAY WITH MECOSTA COUNTY PROSECUTOR BRIAN THIEDE WHEN DET. ERLANDSON AND A DEPUTY BROUGHT WOOD INTO THE COURTHOUSE THAT DAY. MECOSTA COUNTY DEPUTY JEFF ROBERTS TESTIFIED HE “ASKED WOOD TO COME INSIDE BECAUSE THE JUDGE WANTED TO TALK WITH HIM,” THEN THREATENED TO CALL A CITY COP IF WOOD DID NOT COME INSIDE.

WOOD TESTIFIED JUDGE JAKLEVIC NEVER SPOKE TO HIM THAT DAY, OR HIM ANY QUESTIONS, BEFORE ORDERING HIS ARREST. HE TELLS FOX 17 HE HAD CONCERNS HIS CASE WAS TRIED IN MECOSTA COUNTY WHERE ALL OF THIS HAPPENED, INVOLVING SEVERAL COURT OFFICIALS INCLUDING THE JUDGE.”

To recap, this judge said “it just didn’t sound right” that people were carrying information pamphlets on their rights as jurors, and he possibly lied on the stand to justify the fact that he had Woods arrested for doing nothing wrong. What’s more, Woods was brought to trial in the same court where all of this transpired and county officials had literally teamed up to violate his rights in the first place.

So our taxpayer dollars are paying their salary, and they were the actors in this case to arrest me, to imprison me, and all that,” said Woods. “I did have a very great concern that they were the ones trying the case, because they work together day in and day out.

Defense attorney Kallman notes that during Woods’ trial, they were prohibited from arguing several points to the jury.

And of course, the First Amendment issues are critical: that we believe our client had the absolute First Amendment right to hand out these brochures right here on this sidewalk,” said Kallman. “That’s part of the problem of where we feel we were handcuffed quite a bit.

When asked how he felt about his First Amendment rights, Woods replied, Oh, I don’t feel like I have them.

We had briefs about the First Amendment, free speech. It was very clear today, I know the jury doesn’t hear that, but it was very clear that the government did not meet their burden to restrict my free speech on that public sidewalk that day. It was very clear.

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#9. To: Tooconservative (#6)

"Sure. However, a judge in most state and federal cases has considerable discretion to override a jury's intent. As do appeals courts. A jury convicting despite the law will have nowhere near the same impact as a jury exonerating despite the law (and incidentally rendering judgment on the law itself)."

I agree with all that. All these safeguards are in place for the defendant.

Meaning the jury will be comforted knowing that their guilty verdict will be voided by expert jurists if they made the wrong decision. However, if they make the wrong decision by acquitting, THAT error cannot be corrected by anyone.

So, once the jury knows ALL their options, how do you think they'll vote?

misterwhite  posted on  2017-06-03   15:47:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: misterwhite (#9)

Meaning the jury will be comforted knowing that their guilty verdict will be voided by expert jurists if they made the wrong decision. However, if they make the wrong decision by acquitting, THAT error cannot be corrected by anyone.

I'm not sure. If the judge believes that there was something prejudicial or if he believes someone on the jury was nullifying, he could set aside the verdict and declare a mistrial, avoiding double-jeopardy.

So, once the jury knows ALL their options, how do you think they'll vote?

They'll vote the same in 99.9% of all cases. But a handful of cases would change if FIJA had its way in educating jurors about their options.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-06-03   16:01:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Tooconservative (#10)

"I'm not sure. If the judge believes that there was something prejudicial or if he believes someone on the jury was nullifying, he could set aside the verdict and declare a mistrial, avoiding double-jeopardy."

It would certainly have the appearance of double jeopardy. Even Judge Lance Ito, who had about two dozen valid reasons to do that, held back.

misterwhite  posted on  2017-06-03   16:16:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: misterwhite (#11)

I'm pretty sure the discretion of a judge in a state court varies from state to state on what reasons they can set aside a jury's verdict and what else they can do, like ordering a new trial.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-06-03   16:19:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Tooconservative (#10)

"They'll vote the same in 99.9% of all cases."

You're dreaming. Here's the instruction to the jury:

A) If you vote guilty and you're wrong, don't worry. The judge in this case and possibly higher courts will review your decision and will overturn your verdict if you screwed up. Or,

B) If you vote not guilty and you're wrong, you just let a guilty man go free to commit more crimes. There's no going back. There's no second bite at the apple.

I'll ask again. Once the jury knows ALL their options, how do you think they'll vote?

misterwhite  posted on  2017-06-03   16:25:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: misterwhite (#8)

You're correct. If the judge so chooses. But he may hate the defendant more than the jury. It still doesn't change the fact that the jury can convict despite what the law says.

People have literally been hanged contrary to law. Ultimately, written laws have only as much power as those in control allow, and that cannot be helped.

But jury "nullification" really refers to nullifying laws that someone is accused of violating, not convicting someone who stands falsely accused. And given the civil theory is that it's better for a guilty man to be go free than an innocent man to go to jail. Nullification stands as a final voice of the average people on whether criminal laws passed by representatives are acceptable, and that is simply not a bad thing in my view. Fugitive slave laws falling "victim" to jury nullification being one example.

I see no reason why juries should not openly have nullification power explained to them. While it may result in people truly deserving of punishment going free on occasion, #1) I think that would be extremely rare, and #2) I think the value of giving average people a voice on what laws are acceptable is far more valuable a thing than is the harm in letting a true thug go free, so I thikn the benefit greatly outweighs the (very rare) harm.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-06-03   17:18:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: misterwhite (#13)

I'll ask again. Once the jury knows ALL their options, how do you think they'll vote?

You're presuming the average jury has multiple FIJA types on it or people with a political agenda.

I don't think there are that many people willing to sit on a jury who are going to have those motives and carry through with them. They'll generally follow the judge's instructions.

The average juror is not weighing their options like a lawyer would. I don't really think they want to.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-06-03   17:18:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Pinguinite (#14)

"I see no reason why juries should not openly have nullification power explained to them."

I agree. IF both types of nullification are explained to them:

A) If they think the law is unfair they can vote not guilty.

B) If they think the defendant did not violate the letter of the law but did violate the spirit of the law, they can vote guilty. Or they can vote guilty if they simply don't like him.

Otherwise, they can forget about the jury altogether and have a bench trial.

misterwhite  posted on  2017-06-03   17:53:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: misterwhite (#13)

You're dreaming. Here's the instruction to the jury:

A) If you vote guilty and you're wrong, don't worry. The judge in this case and possibly higher courts will review your decision and will overturn your verdict if you screwed up. Or,

B) If you vote not guilty and you're wrong, you just let a guilty man go free to commit more crimes. There's no going back. There's no second bite at the apple.

You have pessimism down to an art.

There's no reason, practical or theoretical, to tell them their guilty verdict could be overturned. At least I can't think of any. You just tell them to consider facts of the case as well as the applicable law, and render a verdict.

And it is extremely, extremely rare for a judge to set aside a jury conviction, as any judge who would be inclined to do that based on the merits of the case would most likely dismiss the charges before jury deliberations even start. I'm sure that is far, far more common.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-06-03   17:58:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Tooconservative (#15)

"You're presuming the average jury has multiple FIJA types on it or people with a political agenda."

My only point was that if you're going to instruct the jury on nullification acquittal then, to be fair and complete, you should also instruct the jury on nullification conviction.

No matter if the judge does the instruction or if FILA does the instruction, or if some guy on the street handing out flyers does the instruction. That was all I was saying.

misterwhite  posted on  2017-06-03   17:59:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: misterwhite (#16)

I agree. IF both types of nullification are explained to them:

A) If they think the law is unfair they can vote not guilty.

B) If they think the defendant did not violate the letter of the law but did violate the spirit of the law, they can vote guilty. Or they can vote guilty if they simply don't like him.

Given that convictions require unanimous agreement, and given that jurists are initially screened to ensure they have no personal relations with the accused, and given the average person would be willing to judge a stranger fairly, I would be inclined to accept your terms.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-06-03   18:03:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Pinguinite (#17)

"You just tell them to consider facts of the case as well as the applicable law, and render a verdict."

Sure. I'd prefer that.

But this article deals with nullification acquittal whereby the jury is informed that they can void the applicable law if they think it's unfair and find the defendant not guilty.

So, in response to THAT, I'm saying that the jury should also be informed of nullification conviction whereby the jury can find the defendant guilty even if he didn't violate the letter of the law.

I would also tell them at the same time not to worry about the guilty verdict since that verdict could be overturned by the judge or a higher court if it was unreasonable.

misterwhite  posted on  2017-06-03   18:11:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Pinguinite (#19)

"Given that convictions require unanimous agreement, and given that jurists are initially screened to ensure they have no personal relations with the accused, and given the average person would be willing to judge a stranger fairly, I would be inclined to accept your terms."

This would actually be beneficial in cases that are lost because of a technicality. The jury could be instructed that they can examine the technical infraction and make a determination as to how much weight to give it.

Every time the defense yells "objection", the jury does not have to disregard what led up to the objection.

The jury would be allowed give police testimony more weight than others who testify.

This could change everything.

misterwhite  posted on  2017-06-03   18:25:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: misterwhite (#18)

My only point was that if you're going to instruct the jury on nullification acquittal then, to be fair and complete, you should also instruct the jury on nullification conviction.

You're kind of making up that whole "nullification conviction" thing.

The point of a "nullification acquittal" is to exonerate the defendant but also to nullify the underlying law. If juries refuse repeatedly to convict, that law becomes nullified and no prosecutor will bring a case to court because they don't like to lose and usually have plenty of other cases to prosecute that they can win.

A "nullification conviction" in no way can nullify the underlying law. At least, I can't imagine how. Such a conviction would probably be easily overturned on appeal.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-06-03   18:28:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: misterwhite (#21)

You are trying very hard to get people to say that jury nullification would be a disaster.

But I'm still not going to do that.

The jury would be allowed give police testimony more weight than others who testify.

People already do that.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-06-03   19:19:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Tooconservative (#22)

"You're kind of making up that whole "nullification conviction" thing."

I got it from your FIJA web site. Go to fija.org and click on Juror's Handbook. Page 12:

"When jurors get wind of the appearance that at least some of our most fundamental rules are really just window dressing, what protection will we have against "nullification convictions" by jurors who refuse to release dangerous or despicable villains entitled to acquittals on the basis of seemingly unjust legal technicalities?

misterwhite  posted on  2017-06-03   20:04:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Pinguinite (#23)

"You are trying very hard to get people to say that jury nullification would be a disaster."

My only point was that if you're going to instruct the jury on nullification acquittal then, to be fair and complete, you should also instruct the jury on nullification conviction.

As to whether or not nullifying laws that someone is accused of violating would be a disaster, that depends on the law in question. Put a Muslim on a jury and he may nullify a spousal abuse law. A Christian may nullify a gay rights law.

Jurors are not supposed to write the laws. If the law is bad or unfair, there are ways to handle that outside a jury room.

misterwhite  posted on  2017-06-03   20:19:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Tooconservative (#22)

"If juries refuse repeatedly to convict, that law becomes nullified and no prosecutor will bring a case to court"

Is that the way we change laws in our country? By a relatively small number of people with an agenda?

misterwhite  posted on  2017-06-03   20:22:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Tooconservative, Pinguinite, misterwhite (#7)

I think in at least some states, a judge can set aside a jury's verdict and call a mistrial even after the jury has returned its verdict. I'm pretty certain they can set aside a guilty verdict in some states, not sure if they can set aside an acquittal.

Maybe nolu has a link or two on the topic.

The judge can overrule a guilty verdict. He cannot overrule a not guilty verdict after the fact due to jury nullification. As a seperate, and distinct possibility, an acquitted defendant may be retried upon a later finding of a rigged jury. That possibility proceeds in the face of double jeopardy claims on the theory that jeopardy never attached in the trial with the rigged jury.

A judge issuing an acquittal notwithstanding the verdict I believe is most commonly issued when the judge decides he erred in sending the case to the jury as there was insufficient evidence presented to justify a finding of guilty.

If a juror should be found, during a trial (before a verdict) to be engaging in juror nullification (or intending to do so), said juror may be removed from the jury.

Defense counsel may not argue jury nullification.

Criminal Procedure, Fifth Edition, West Publishing, Thomson Reuters (2009), by Wayne R. LaFave, Jerold H. Israel, Nancy J. King, and Orin S. Karr

[footnotes omitted]

[1075]

(f) Jury Nullification. The function of the jury is commonly said to be that of ascertain­ing the facts and then applying the law, as stated by the judge, to those facts. Indeed, it is not at all unusual for a jury in a criminal case to be instructed that it has the “duty” to proceed in such a fashion. But it is nonetheless true that, a jury in a criminal case has the power to acquit even when its findings of fact, if literally applied to the law as stated by the judge, would have resulted in a conviction. This is because a jury verdict of not guilty is not subject to reversal or to review in any manner whatsoever. On occasion, juries will acquit defendants who appear sympathetic, who are charged with violating an unpopular law, who the jurors speculate would otherwise be sentenced too severely, or who haven’t been proven guilty under standards for proof the jurors believe are required despite the judge’s instruction otherwise. Some have argued that this practice, usually referred to as jury nullification, is part of the right to jury trial guaranteed by the Sixth Amendment. Arguably the language that the Supreme Court has used to describe that right appears to encompass the nullification process. In Duncan v. Louisiana; holding that right applicable to the states, the Court declared that in the view of the framers “[i]f the defen­dant preferred the commonsense judgment of a jury to the more tutored but perhaps less sympathetic reaction of the single judge, he was to have it.” Similarly, in emphasizing the need for juries drawn from a cross-section of the community the Court later asserted: “The purpose of a jury is to guard against the exer­cise of arbitrary power—to make available the commonsense judgment of the community as a hedge against the overzealous or mistaken prosecutor and in preference to the profession­al or perhaps overconditioned or biased re­sponse of a judge."

Rather than treating nullification as an af­firmative right of the accused (or the juror), however, most courts treat the jury’s nullifica­tion power as an inevitable by-product of the finality of verdicts of acquittal. As a result, pre-verdict procedures discouraging nullifica­tion abound. Members of the venire who admit that they will not follow the law may be ex­cused for cause, for example. And in United States v. Thomas, the Second Circuit conclud­ed that a juror’s intent to acquit regardless of the evidence constitutes a basis for the juror’s removal during the deliberations, reasoning, “Nullification is, by definition, a violation of a juror’s oath to apply the law as instructed by the court * * * We categorically reject the idea that, in a society committed to the rule of law, jury nullification is desirable or that courts may permit it to occur when it is within their authority to prevent.”

The prevailing view is also that the Consti­tution does not require that a jury be told

[1076]

specifically that it has the power to disregard the law and acquit. This view is often attrib­uted to Sparf and Hansen v. United States."Two sailors charged with murder asked the judge to instruct the jury on the lesser offense of manslaughter, but the judge refused on the ground that there was no evidence which would support a manslaughter verdict. Rather, he instructed: “In a proper case, a verdict for manslaughter may be rendered, * * * and even in this case you have the physical power to do so; but as one of the tribunals of the country, a jury is expected to be governed by law, and the lawr it should receive from the court.” Holding the jury had not been improp­erly instructed, the Supreme Court reasoned that “if a jury may rightfully disregard the direction of the court in matters of law, and determine for themselves what the law is in the particular case before them, it is difficult to perceive any legal ground upon which a verdict of conviction can be set aside by the court as being against law.”

It is fair to say that Sparf did not settle the jury nullification issue, for the Court did not address the specific question whether jurors should be told they can refuse to enforce the law’s harshness when they conclude that jus­tice so requires. But lower courts have rather consistently ruled that no such instruction should be given, that defense counsel may not make a nullification closing argument, and that “the potential for nullification is no basis for admitting otherwise irrelevant evidence.” When jurors have no responsibility for sen­tencing, for example, a court will typically prohibit them from learning of the sentencing consequences of their verdict through evidence or argument. This ensures that their decision to convict or acquit is based entirely on the evidence of guilt or innocence and not upon their punishment preferences for the defen­dant.

One leading case on the propriety of limiting the information and argument provided to the jury on its power to disregard the law is Unit­ed States v. Dougherty." There the court con­cluded that the “jury system has worked reasonably well overall” without resort to a nullification instruction, “with the jury acting as a ‘safety valve’ for exceptional cases, out being a wildcat or runaway institutution. This is because, the court explained, the jury “gets its understanding as to the arrangements in the legal system” not only from judge’s instructions but also through “the formal communication from the total culture," and the “totality of input generally convey adequately enough the idea of prerogative, of freedom in an occasional case to depart from what the judge says.” The court expressed fear that a nullification instruction would upset the existing balance and produce more hung juries. Finally, the court in Dougherty declared that such an instruction would deprive the individual juror of an important protection he now enjoys and to which he is entitled: that “when he takes action that he knows is right, but also knows is unpopular either in the community at large or in his own particular grouping, that he can fairly put it to friends and neighbors that he was merely following the instructions of the court.” In opposition to the Dougherty position, it has been contended that there is no reason to assume that juries will act in a different and less desirable way if informed about their nullification power, that there are political advantages to be gained by not lying to the jury, and that a nullification instruction would serve to discourage acquittals based on prejudice instead of encouraging them, by setting justice and conscience as the standards for acquittal rather than leaving the jurors to use their own biases as standards.

nolu chan  posted on  2017-06-03   23:41:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: misterwhite (#25)

My only point was that if you're going to instruct the jury on nullification acquittal then, to be fair and complete, you should also instruct the jury on nullification conviction.

Fair? Fair to whom?

Is the idea that every person accused of a crime enter a courtroom with as close as possible to a 50/50 chance of being convicted, and if the odds are only 20%, then some rule changes should be done to make it closer to 50%, because then the trial will be more "fair"?

The entire premise of the US criminal justice system is supposed to be based on the idea that defendants get the benefit of a doubt at every step. Prosecutors have to see enough merit to press charges, grand juries have to affirm there's a criminal case, judges have to agree, defendants are given attorneys if they can't afford one, juries have to be convinced of guilt "beyond reasonable doubt", and even after all that, appellate judges can be called in to give an opinion on whether everything was done right.

Jury nullification would/could/should be just one more test of guilt added to many others that already exist. It's not about being fair or not fair. Nullification serves as a test of the law itself, that it is something that an average cross section of people agree with. And it's not as though a single jury engaging in nullification would cause a law to be repealed throughout an entire land. It would only affect the outcome of a single trial. Only if many juries began to nullify one particular law repeatedly would the law be effectively gutted, and if that were to happen, then it probably means it's a bad law that should be gutted, one example being the Fugitive Slave Act which I understand was frequently nullified on sound moral grounds. And if that's the case, why shouldn't such an unpopular law be gutted?

I don't understand why a judge would even care if a jury engaged in nullification. It's no money out of his pocket. Why would he not simply accept it as one more thing, added to many others, that could happen?

As to whether or not nullifying laws that someone is accused of violating would be a disaster, that depends on the law in question. Put a Muslim on a jury and he may nullify a spousal abuse law. A Christian may nullify a gay rights law.

If only a single juror nullifies while all others affirm guilt then the defendant can be retried, and probably would be in most cases.

Jurors are not supposed to write the laws. If the law is bad or unfair, there are ways to handle that outside a jury room.

Nullification is not writing laws. It's only limiting application of a law or laws against a single defendant or set of defendants. Once the case is over, the nullification has no further legal effect.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-06-04   1:02:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: nolu chan (#27)

The judge can overrule a guilty verdict. He cannot overrule a not guilty verdict after the fact due to jury nullification. As a seperate, and distinct possibility, an acquitted defendant may be retried upon a later finding of a rigged jury.

Hmmm...it almost sounds contradictory. I suppose a nullified jury is not the same as a rigged jury, although I don't really see the difference in the outcome for an individual defendant.

It would seem to allow for nullified outcomes by jurors, just no bribing or conspiring of jurors as a "rigged jury". So now I'm no longer sure what the exact legal definition of a rigged jury is.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-06-04   1:04:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: misterwhite (#26)

Is that the way we change laws in our country? By a relatively small number of people with an agenda?

Don't forget that juries are supposed to be a random cross section of the general public. A Gilligan's Island crew of unrelated people of every walk of life, so if most of them have a shared agenda, it would generally mean that it's also an agenda shared by most of the general public.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-06-04   1:07:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: misterwhite (#2)

That was John Jays position you anti American dumb ass. You don't know your own nations history.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-06-04   7:34:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: misterwhite (#4)

Fake and unconstitutional laws is the disruption of our legal system, not exercising free speech to tell the truth. You would have been a very good and loyal nazi.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-06-04   7:36:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: misterwhite (#8)

But think what this would mean. Juries will play it safe and convict knowing that if they are wrong the judge -- who is the expert, after all

No only statists like you look at judges as authority figures. It is like they are your some of your gods.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-06-04   7:40:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: misterwhite (#11)

I'll agree with you this time. It would be double jeopardy.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-06-04   7:42:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: misterwhite (#13)

I'll ask again. Once the jury knows ALL their options, how do you think they'll vote?

That is an easy one. If they think the guy did something wrong they will convict. If it is one of those stupid laws you support like licensing 10 year olds to mow a lawn, or putting someone in jail for cutting a friend's hair. Then there will be at least one sane person to nullify the stupid laws.

After all the first supreme court justice John Jay said it was the juries job to judge both the law and alleged crime.

Everyone isn't like you thinking we should follow bullshit immoral "laws".

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-06-04   7:47:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: misterwhite (#16)

Or they can vote guilty if they simply don't like him.

That explains a lot about you. You are a hater and you just want people you disagree with locked up. No wonder you are wrong so much of the time.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-06-04   7:52:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: misterwhite (#18)

the jury on nullification conviction.

You are a dumb ass friend of tyrants. You don't convict someone be3cause you don't like them. You don't tell jurors that. Comprende asswipe.?

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-06-04   7:56:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: misterwhite (#20)

But this article deals with nullification acquittal whereby the jury is informed

They should be informed. People have free speech rights despite assholes like you who hate free speech. Who hate the constitution.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-06-04   7:58:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: misterwhite (#25)

My only point was that if

You have made no valid points. The only point you have made is that if the government had a dick you would happily be sucking on it.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-06-04   8:00:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Pinguinite (#28)

"Fair? Fair to whom?"

To the jurors. To justice. To the rule of law.

The jury has the power to acquit AND the power to convict. How is it fair to instruct the jury that they can ignore the law and acquit, while not telling them they have the power to ignore the law and convict?

misterwhite  posted on  2017-06-04   10:14:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Pinguinite (#28)

"The entire premise of the US criminal justice system is supposed to be based on the idea that defendants get the benefit of a doubt at every step."

That's only one part. Another premise of the US criminal justice system is that the jury will apply the law.

When one jury convicts a defendandant for violating a law and another jury acquits a defendandant for violating the same law based on jury nullification we no longer have the rule of law. We have the rule of man.

misterwhite  posted on  2017-06-04   10:20:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Pinguinite, nolu chan (#28)

"Nullification serves as a test of the law itself"

You don't know that. Jurors are not required to fill out a questionairre describing the reasons the voted the way they did.

As nolu chan pointed out, "... juries will acquit defendants who appear sympathetic, who are charged with violating an unpopular law, who the jurors speculate would otherwise be sentenced too severely, or who haven’t been proven guilty under standards for proof the jurors believe are required despite the judge’s instruction otherwise."

Was OJ acquitted because the law against murder was unfair?

misterwhite  posted on  2017-06-04   10:26:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Pinguinite (#28)

Nullification is not writing laws. It's only limiting application of a law or laws against a single defendant or set of defendants.

It's re-writing the law as it applies to that one individual.

It is undemocratic, unconstitutional and un-American to have one set of rules for some and a different set for others. Are you comfortable with Hillary getting away with violating laws that you and I would go to prison for? Are you comfortable with OJ walking the streets (looking for the real killer)?

A man rapes a 14-year old girl. No doubt. One, two or maybe all of the jurors conclude she "asked for it". They acquit.

You have no problem with that?

misterwhite  posted on  2017-06-04   10:38:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: A K A Stone (#39)

You have made no valid points. The only point you have made is that if the government had a dick you would happily be sucking on it.

Thank you. This is how I know I've won the argument.

misterwhite  posted on  2017-06-04   10:40:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: misterwhite (#40)

"Fair? Fair to whom?"

To the jurors. To justice. To the rule of law.

How can anyone rationally argue that having various option on what to consider in a case would violate the rights or otherwise be unfair to a juror?

And how could anyone argue that a society of living, breathing people are bound to dispense fairness to a "rule of law" as though it was a person with rights, when it's the other way around, that the very purpose of the rule of law is to serve and protect society?

Fair to the Rule of Law? Give me a break. The law serves the people. The people do not serve the law.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-06-04   11:23:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: misterwhite (#41)

Another premise of the US criminal justice system is that the jury will apply the law.

That is your whole claim, but this whole debate is about whether jurors should have the option to NOT do this, but acquit if they feel the law is bad, or otherwise should not be applied in a specific case for any reason.

When one jury convicts a defendandant for violating a law and another jury acquits a defendandant for violating the same law based on jury nullification we no longer have the rule of law. We have the rule of man.

No we don't have the rule of man as the verdicts do not change the law itself. Obviously the legal system is not perfect as guilty people go free and innocent people get convicted (and have even been exonerated after execution), so if that is not considered the "rule of man" then the legal system can survive nullification as well.

Nullification is simply one more test of many that serves as a check on the laws themselves in very isolated cases, and it's value to society would greatly outweigh the possibility of harm of errant verdicts in individual cases.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-06-04   11:36:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: misterwhite (#42)

"Nullification serves as a test of the law itself"

You don't know that. Jurors are not required to fill out a questionairre describing the reasons the voted the way they did.

Yes, I do know that. The very definition of Nullification is when jurors judge the law. While nullification couldn't be proven in any individual case, it would be easily apparent if nullification was happening on a large scale involving a specific law, as is reputed to have happened with the Fugitive Slave Act and certainly was in play in the famous William Tell trial.

As nolu chan pointed out, "... juries will acquit defendants who appear sympathetic, who are charged with violating an unpopular law, who the jurors speculate would otherwise be sentenced too severely, or who haven’t been proven guilty under standards for proof the jurors believe are required despite the judge’s instruction otherwise."

Jurors are first and foremost humans, and that is the reason why they are used to render judgments in jury trials. They are chosen because they are human, not in spite of being human.

Was OJ acquitted because the law against murder was unfair?

Like I said, injustice occurs regularly in the legal system in spite of best intentions, and OJ's acquittal certainly was no result of nullification. They just didn't think he did it for whatever reason. Are you afraid that nullification would means murderers would be routinely acquitted? Do you think the average person believes murder should be legal? There's no way that's true.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-06-04   11:48:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: misterwhite (#43)

You are attempting to completely mischaracterize nullification with your examples.

Are you comfortable with Hillary getting away with violating laws that you and I would go to prison for? Are you comfortable with OJ walking the streets (looking for the real killer)? A man rapes a 14-year old girl. No doubt. One, two or maybe all of the jurors conclude she "asked for it". They acquit.

I have a problem with all those things but none of them have anything to do with jury nullification. I also have a problem with people going to jail for supposed crimes in which there is no victim.

And I have a problem with the Land of the Free having the highest per capita incarceration rate in the world.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-06-04   11:54:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Pinguinite (#45)

"How can anyone rationally argue that having various option on what to consider in a case would violate the rights or otherwise be unfair to a juror?"

Easy. It's not fair to inform the juror of only one option -- nullification acquittal. The juror has another -- nullification conviction -- and he should be informed of that option at the same time.

"... that the very purpose of the rule of law is to serve and protect society?"

I agree. The rule of law is to serve and protect society, not the defendant. How does jury nullification -- which violates the rule of law -- serve society? An otherwise guilty man goes free.

misterwhite  posted on  2017-06-04   12:18:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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