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New Discovery! 2023 Hottest in over 120 Million Years 2024 and beyond in prophecy Questions Status: Not Logged In; Sign In U.S. Constitution See other U.S. Constitution Articles Title: Mythical inalienable rights.? Source: Crazy Guy URL Source: [None] Published: Feb 6, 2017 Author: nolu chan Post Date: 2017-02-06 03:25:38 by tpaine Keywords: None Views: 17707 Comments: 56 Nolu Chan has just posted another rather remarkable claim. (It is an) --- insufferable claim that RKBA is an inalienable right given by God Almighty hisself. The Constitution recognizes capital punishment which takes away all rights, including the mythical inalienable rights. nolu chan posted on 2017-02-06 Poster Comment: Any comments? Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 36. #2. To: tpaine (#0) Nolu is a bright guy. He has a sharp legal mind, but a Pharisaic one, like Paul of Tarsus. He believes in the rule of law above all other things. Now, what he said there is absolutely true, in the sense that if your right to life truly were UNALIENABLE, then you could not be executed for crimes. (To argue with ME, Nolu would point out - correctly again - that "unalienable" does not mean somebody can't take it from you in punishment for crime, just that you cannot contract it away). Once again, that would be his assertion of the rule of law as the supreme rule of life. Obviously lawyers like the idea of Rule-of-Law uber alles, the "Master Key", because they possess it and, therefore, have greater power than others. All of these things are always about power and fear. On another thread, strict legalism was being used to justify (as if that were possible) the German invasion of France and the Low Countries and Scandinavia and Poland in World War II. Vicomte13  posted on  2017-02-06   6:45:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #7. To: Vicomte13 (#2) On another thread, strict legalism was being used to justify (as if that were possible) the German invasion of France and the Low Countries and Scandinavia and Poland in World War II. Bullshit. http://www2.libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=49601&Disp=9#C9 [Vicomte13 #9] The Germans should not have been permitted to conquer Belgium and France. France declared war on Germany. Who was supposed to "not permit" Germany to conquer France? Who could have done such a thing? A country should not declare a war it is not prepared to fight. By declaring war, France made the subsequent German attack on France lawful. nolu chan  posted on  2017-02-08   16:41:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #9. To: nolu chan (#7) Bullshit. http://www2.libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=49601&Disp=9#C9 [Vicomte13 #9] The Germans should not have been permitted to conquer Belgium and France. France declared war on Germany. Who was supposed to "not permit" Germany to conquer France? Who could have done such a thing? A country should not declare a war it is not prepared to fight. By declaring war, France made the subsequent German attack on France lawful. You're not as smart as I made you out to be. Belgium did not declare war on Germany. Holland did not declare war on Germany. Luxembourg didn't. Denmark didn't. Norway didn't. Nor did any of them attack Germany, carry out cross-border raids, anything. They were simply invaded by the Germans, because the Nazis were criminal thugs who broke the peace. That's why they were tried and hanged as criminals, breakers of the peace, when the war was over. They broke the law when they invaded Poland. That gave France and Britain, and Russia and everybody else, the RIGHT to attack them. The UK and France declared war, justly. You say that gave the Germans the "right" to invade France - sort of like a criminal has the "right" to go in an shoot up a police station because they are trying to stop him. But none of that list of countries above declared war on Germany. The Germans overran them anyway, completely without a fig leaf of justification. They were murderers, and criminals. And they paid for their crimes very dearly. I'm surprised that you don't see that. Vicomte13  posted on  2017-02-08   17:01:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #14. To: Vicomte13 (#9) Bullshit. http://www2.libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=49601&Disp=9#C9 [Vicomte13 #9] The Germans should not have been permitted to conquer Belgium and France. France declared war on Germany. Who was supposed to "not permit" Germany to conquer France? Who could have done such a thing? A country should not declare a war it is not prepared to fight. By declaring war, France made the subsequent German attack on France lawful. You're not as smart as I made you out to be. Belgium did not declare war on Germany. Holland did not declare war on Germany. Luxembourg didn't. Denmark didn't. Norway didn't. I did not say Belgium, Holland, Luxembourg, Denmark, or Norway declared war on Germany. Vicomte13 said: The Germans should not have been permitted to conquer ... France. France did declare war on Germany. The UK and France declared war, justly. You say that gave the Germans the "right" to invade France - sort of like a criminal has the "right" to go in an shoot up a police station because they are trying to stop him. The question is not whether France's declaration of was was "just" or "unjust." Germany had not attacked France and had not declared war against France. Ditto the United States. France declared war on Germany on 3 Sep 1939. So you mean that when France declared war on Germany, Germany was supposed to surrender to France? If France declares war against Germany (or anyone else), the other party has the right to take them seriously and conquer them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France In 1939, Britain and France offered military support to Poland in the likely case of a German invasion. In the dawn of 1 September 1939, the German Invasion of Poland began. France and the United Kingdom declared war on 3 September, after an ultimatum for German forces to immediately withdraw their forces from Poland was met without reply. Following this, Australia (3 September), New Zealand (3 September), South Africa (6 September) and Canada (10 September), declared war on Germany. British and French commitments to Poland were met politically but they adopted a long-war strategy and mobilised for defensive land operations against Germany, while a trade blockade was imposed and the pre-war re-armament was accelerated, ready for an eventual invasion of Germany. On 7 September, in accordance with their alliance with Poland, France began the Saar Offensive with an advance from the Maginot Line 5 km (3.1 mi) into the German-occupied Saar. France had mobilised 98 divisions (all but 28 of them reserve or fortress formations) and 2,500 tanks against a German force consisting of 43 divisions (32 of them reserves) and no tanks. The French advanced until they met the then thin and undermanned Siegfried Line. On 17 September, the French supreme commander, Maurice Gamelin gave the order to withdraw French troops to their starting positions; the last of them left Germany on 17 October. Following the Saar Offensive, a period of inaction called the Phoney War (the French Drôle de guerre, joke war or the German Sitzkrieg, sitting war) set in between the belligerents. [...] On 10 October 1939, Britain refused Hitler's offer of peace and on 12 October, France did the same. [...] So, France offered military assistance to Poland if they were attacked. Poland was attacked. Poland fell. France came from behind the Maginot Line and held a 10-day parade and retreated, not doing much good for Poland. The invasion of Belgium, Holland, and France was conducted in 1940. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France Popular reaction in Germany Hitler had expected a million Germans to die in conquering France; instead, his goal was accomplished in just six weeks with only 27,000 Germans killed, 18,400 missing, and 111,000 wounded, a little more than one third of the total German casualties in the Battle of Verdun during World War I. The unexpectedly swift victory resulted in a wave of euphoria among the German population and a strong upsurge in war-fever. Hitler's personal popularity reached its peak with the celebration of France's capitulation on 6 July 1940: Germany sought to get to the Atlantic in order to attack Britain who had also declared war against Germany. It appears they chose the path of least resistance. If France was prepared to fight a war, it should have not declared one. Vicomte13 wrote, "The Germans should not have been permitted to conquer Belgium and France." WHO was supposed to "not permit" Germany to conquer France??? The United States had not been attacked and was not at war. It was in a declared state of neutrality until after the attack on Pearl Harbor. nolu chan  posted on  2017-02-08   18:33:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #19. To: nolu chan (#14) WHO was supposed to "not permit" Germany to conquer France??? The civilized world. Germany committed the crime of starting the war. They defeated Poland, then invaded their little Western neighbors - more crime - and of course overran France. They were too weak to take out Britain, were defeated at sea by the British Navy, and defeated in the air by the Royal Air Force. And so then it was just a matter of time, for Britain to wait while Germany, cut off from international trade, slowly imploded as in World War I. The Germans doubled down their madness and invaded Russia, which they did not have the right to do either. And then they declared war on the USA, also, after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. So, at war with every other major power on the planet except Japan, they sank under the weight of the combined forces of their enemies, who swamped them. But when it was just 1 on 1 versus the British, the Germans lost in the air, they lost on the sea, and they lost in North Africa also, where they faced off on land. Starting the war in the first place by invading another country was a criminal act. It was a criminal act that was bound to have war as a repercussion. The Germans were so delusive they actually thought they could win. So, they were criminal madmen. And they ended up swinging at the end of a rope, or against the wall in a firing squad. And that was that. Vicomte13  posted on  2017-02-08   19:04:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #22. To: Vicomte13 (#19) Note that Poland was cruisin’ for a bruisin’. It had refused to negotiate on disputed territories in erstwhile eastern Prussia. Poland met requests from minorities under its administration that Poland honor its WWI promises to them with intransigence and force. At the same time Poland was squeezing the international city, Danzig (over 90% German at the time) by restricting rail traffic, thereby depriving the city of food and necessary supplies. Nor can it be said that Poland was innocent of territorial land grabbing. When the German areas in the Sudetenland were ceded to Germany, Poland was more than eager to a good chunk of what was left of Czechoslovakia. (Hungary got a piece of the hapless Czech Republic as well.) In addition, Polish irregulars had been at work throughout 1938-39 on a campaign of arson and looting throughout the corridor and along the border with Germany proper. Germany spent a good deal of 1939 trying to get an agreement over the eastern territories and Danzig with Britain, France and Poland without success. In the end Germany invaded Poland and our ally, Stalin, was more than happy to divide the spoils with the Reich. The following countries then declared war: Great Britain on Germany - September 3, 1939, 11 a.m. France on Germany - September 3, 1939, 5 p.m. India on Germany - September 3, 1939 Australia on Germany - September 3, 1939 New Zealand on Germany - September 3, 1939 Union of South Africa on Germany - September 6, 1939 Canada on Germany - September 10, 1939 Also take note of the fact the France invaded Germany on September 3, 1939. (And not the other way 'round.) The French army occupied the territory of the Saar for nine days before thinking the better of the operation and making a beeline for the French frontier. Before the Germans moved on the low countries, almost seven months ensued, during which time Germany made no less than five peace proposals. This was the so called Phony War. So although France had invaded Germany and retreated, Britain and France had September 1939 to May 1940 to think about the deal. I will stipulate that the Germans were thugs. However, there was a lot of thuggery afoot both in the east and in the west. Everyone wanted a piece of someone else's pie. Some choice quotes: "Germany is too strong. We must destroy her." - Winston Churchill, Nov. 1936. "In no country has the historical blackout been more intense and effective than in Great Britain. Here it has been ingeniously christened The Iron Curtain of Discreet Silence. Virtually nothing has been written to reveal the truth about British responsibility for the Second World War and its disastrous results." - Harry Elmer Barnes. American Historian "The war was not just a matter of the elimination of Fascism in Germany, but rather of obtaining German sales markets." - Winston Churchill. March, 1946. "Britain was taking advantage of the situation to go to war against Germany because the Reich had become too strong and had upset the European balance." - Ralph F. Keeling, Institute of American Economics "I emphasized that the defeat of Germany and Japan and their elimination from world trade would give Britain a tremendous opportunity to swell her foreign commerce in both volume and profit." - Samuel Untermeyer, The Public Years, p.347. On September 2nd 1939 a delegate of the Labour Party met with the British Foreign Minister Halifax in the lobby of Parliament. 'Do you still have hope?'he asked. 'If you mean hope for war,' answered Halifax, 'then your hope will be fulfilled tomorrow. 'God be thanked!' replied the representative of the British Labour Party. - Professor Michael Freund. "In Britain, Lord Halifax was reported as being 'redeemed'. He ordered beer. We laughed and joked." - H. Roth. Are We Being Lied To? "In April, 1939, (four months before the outbreak of war) Ambassador William C. Bullitt, whom I had known for twenty years, called me to the American Embassy in Paris. The American Ambassador told me that war had been decided upon. He did not say, nor did I ask, by whom. He let me infer it. ... When I said that in the end Germany would be driven into the arms of Soviet Russia and Bolshevism, the Ambassador replied: "'What of it? There will not be enough Germans left when the war is over to be worth bolshevising.'" - - Karl von Wiegand, April, 23rd, 1944, Chicago Herald American "I felt sorry for the German people. We were planning - and we had the force to carry out our plans - to obliterate a once mighty nation." - Admiral Daniel Leahy; U.S Ambassador randge  posted on  2017-02-08   21:25:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #28. To: randge (#22) Also take note of the fact the France invaded Germany on September 3, 1939. (And not the other way 'round.) BECAUSE Germany invaded Poland. Those things are fundamentally linked. A thug invades your neighbor's home. You rush in and attack the thug. YOU are not the aggressor. The thug is. Once a criminal breaches the peace, everybody else has the right to attack the criminal. Each successive attack on the criminal is not an assault - it is, rather, the bystanders intervention against the original crime. Germany attempted negotiations to get something they wanted: the Danzig corridor. Germany failed in those negotiations. Therefore, Germany does not get the Danzig corridor. Case over. Instead, the Germans turn into murderers and attack - they are now criminals, and everybody else has the right to intervene to defend the attacked, and to punish and bring back into line the criminal who - unable to get his way with words, resorts to violence. The Germans had no right to resort to violence because they did not get their way in Danzig. They had the right to bitch and moan about it endlessly, and impose economic sanctions and diplomatic tit-for-tat. By choosing, instead, to unleash an army to violently take what was not theirs because they wanted it, they became murderers and criminals, started a war they could not win, and got what they deserved in the end: bombed flat, millions dead, leaders hanged or shot, and the permanent loss of MORE territory. There is no defense for the German invasion of Poland. They wanted Danzig. Too bad. It wasn't theirs. So they killed over it. And as a result, 4.3 million Germans were killed and they lost MORE territory - Konigsberg is now Russian Kaliningrad, Danzig is Gdansk, and the Germans who used to live in those places were utterly driven out - meaning that now the Germans not only still have no claim to either place, but ethnic Germans don't even live there peacefully as citizens of other countries. The lesson of the Danzig corridor is that Danzig was not German. It HAD BEEN German, but the Germans lost it as punishment for starting a war. They started ANOTHER war over that, and lost worse. If you start wars, you had better win. Vicomte13  posted on  2017-02-09   10:19:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #32. To: Vicomte13 (#28) There is a certain catharsis in revisiting old animosities. So if you have an itch to scratch, by all means go ahead. But you know the old saying: "If you scratch it, it will never heal." I won't refight the World Wars with you, and I'll agree that there were a lot of things the Germans shouldn't have done. There are lots of things that shouldn't have been done either by Germany's neighbors. Some of these neighbors would have done the same things to Germany if they could have. With the passing of Pilsudski and his reasonable regime for example, Poland went on a tear and wiped out thousands of Galician Ukranian farmers because they were in the way of the Polish generals' ethnic program. I haven't read anywhere that Polish generals were hung for these atrocities. Those farmers were living peacefully and hurting no one else. Their hangmen were not punished. Many who have conspired against the peace and commanded the hangmen themselves were not hung. The Russians rubbed out the entire Polish officer corps, or as much of it as they could get their hands on, in the forests of Katyn, and they blamed it on the Germans. No Russian generals or commissars were hung for these executions or called to account for it in any way. Speaking of commissars, it's difficult to know where to begin. I was educated unaware of the sheer scale of their work. I had no idea of the human cost until after I left high school and read Solzhenitsyn. It seems that the commissars and their puppet masters came away unscathed - except for those that fell afoul of their Georgian master. They were covered by a sort of "truth and reconciliation" that transpired after that rotten empire expired. Napoleon wanted to be the Emperor of Europe and many thousands of innocents perished in his wars. He was exiled twice, but not hung though many certainly desired his death. Americans prosecuted wars in SE Asia long after it was apparent that they were fighting losing campaigns. American generals didn't pull out until the nearby oceans were thoroughly mapped for petroleum. We left behind a mess. A decade of large scale homicide ensued. No generals or politicians were hung. We've been on a tear too more recently, motivated ostensibly on the basis of an attack on the City of New York in 2001, and we've smashed to bits nations that had nothing to do with that assault. Now Saddam WAS hung. "Weapons of Mass Destruction." "Mission Accomplished." When you go balls out that way, you have to hang someone. And it wasn't on account of the Kuwaitis. It was because we had so little to show for the cost to us in blood and treasure. The effort required an orgasmic denouement. Saddam's trial was a foregone conclusion. The conquest of continental America was also not accomplished without breaking a few eggs. The US Army along with other of our state institutions made war on native populations, very often without regard to age or sex, waging what we would regard today as criminal campaigns. No generals were hung. I sit on land once occupied by the Karankawa people who were by stages rubbed out by the Mexicans, the Spanish and by migrants from Kentucky, Tennessee and Virginia. No one has ever been brought to trial for that genocide. I sit out back and drink my wine and sometimes think about those hunters of shellfish and deer in the woods and bayous around here. One of their descendants is still alive in these parts. I should like to meet him. I have met many people whose ancestors have fought with mine. I have lived, worked and broken bread with Poles and Russians and French. I lived with two French guys for a time. We didn't think about or talk about wars. (Except perhaps my friend Jean whose grandfather's furniture factory outside Paris fell victim to American bombs. Gone to splinters. Never rebuilt. I fear he nursed a grudge.) I have an uncle who was born and grew up on his family's farm in what was long ago German territory. That farm in time became part of a government communal entity and now now belongs to a Polish corporate farming enterprise. My uncle went there for a visit years ago after the fall of the Communist government. He was fed and feted. No one talked of war. He and his hosts talked about what farmers always talk about - the price of eggs and beef and pork. So much shit has gone down within living memory that folks have developed perspective. And that's what I would hope for everyone. Perspective. That's a cast of mind sometimes lacking here where I live and for sure in certain enclaves where the headchoppers live. I believe that they will shortly be eliminated for the lack of it. But that is another story. (Apologies to other posters for ranting off topic.) randge  posted on  2017-02-09   13:28:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #35. To: randge (#32) The conquest of continental America was also not accomplished without breaking a few eggs. The US Army along with other of our state institutions made war on native populations, very often without regard to age or sex, waging what we would regard today as criminal campaigns. No generals were hung. And that's what I would hope for everyone. Perspective. That's a cast of mind sometimes lacking here where I live and for sure in certain enclaves where the headchoppers live. I believe that they will shortly be eliminated for the lack of it. But that is another story. (Apologies to other posters for ranting off topic.) Apology accepted, as I too agree with most of what you posted... Perspective is sadly lacking in the disputes about our constitution from guys like nolu. --- It's his way or no way. --- In reality, our constitution has little in it that can be disputed. Sure, it can be amended, but it cannot be amended in a way that takes away, --- or infringes on, our basic rights. tpaine  posted on  2017-02-09   21:03:03 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #36. To: tpaine (#35) but it cannot be amended in a way that takes away, --- or infringes on, our basic rights That is the big battle that is already well under way. randge  posted on  2017-02-09   22:00:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   Replies to Comment # 36.         There are no replies to Comment # 36. End Trace Mode for Comment # 36. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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